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DayZ Standalone: Last Hope for MMORPG Gaming

BigHatLoganBigHatLogan Bellingham, WAPosts: 688Member

Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind?  Most make you kill 10 wolves 1,000,000 times.  Once you have finally reached the end game then they find says to grind out gear instead of levels.  The more I play games in the MMORPG genre, the more I loath character progression.  Instead of character progression they should just call it boring grinding. 

 

How many MMORPGs would still be fun if all progression was removed?  I can't think of many.  Maybe Age of Wushu and Darkfall because they have fun combat and PVP.  I'm sure there are some others.  Definitely no AAA MMORPGs though.  Most MMORPGs just seem like the huge behavioral conditioning traps to get players to pay subscription or buy cash shop items.  There is always some mind numbing task to do and when people run out of mind numbing tasks?  Well they complain about "lack of content" and quit. 

 

I posted this observation in the DayZ thread because I truly feel that DayZ's design decisions are the only hope for a truly fun MMORPg completely void of all psychological tricks, brainwashing, behavioral conditioning ect.  In DayZ there is no character progression besides just finding stuff.  The end game starts immediately without all the godawful boring grinding.  Without the curse of progression fun starts immediately.  And how does it keep things interesting?  Permadeath.  So many people hate the idea of permadeath because they don't want to lose all their hard earned progression.  And can you blame them?  I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to do all that boring shit again.  Get rid of progression and suddenly permadeath is very manageable.  It might suck to get killed but it keeps things interesting.  It also adds a real sense of consequence in the world where actions have real meaning.

 

I truly hope some other MMORPGs take note of alternative design decisions and get rid of the curse of progression.  We don't need to brainwash the youth of the world into enjoying repetitive boring tasks...or do we?  Is this truly a plot to condition the younger generation into doing repetitive jobs and enjoying it?  Are MMORPGs the new opiate of the masses?  Well I doubt it, but they are definitely boring as all hell.  Why can't we have a living world to explore without the curse of character progression.  It locks the game into never having any sort of real player interaction like permadeath or player looting because people can't stand to part with their belongings since they probably had to kill 10000 donkeys to get that stuff in the first place. 

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I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

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Comments

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • jackel88jackel88 WrawbyPosts: 13Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

    I'm missing the point you are making with this post?

  • TuanLauTuanLau Old Bridge, NJPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

     

    And said development won't be affected. I think you left out that fun fact.

     

    http://www.gamespot.com/news/dayz-creator-taking-two-months-off-to-climb-mt-everest-6406955

  • BigHatLoganBigHatLogan Bellingham, WAPosts: 688Member
    Originally posted by jackel88
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

    I'm missing the point you are making with this post?

    Maybe it is that Dean Hall is so awesome that he is taking a break to do one of the most difficult adventures possible in real life :) 

    Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
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    I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  • jackel88jackel88 WrawbyPosts: 13Member
    Originally posted by BigHatLogan
    Originally posted by jackel88
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

    I'm missing the point you are making with this post?

    Maybe it is that Dean Hall is so awesome that he is taking a break to do one of the most difficult adventures possible in real life :) 

    I think you are probably right on the mark there.

    We all take time off work, and I'd say thats a damn good reason to have a couple of months off.

     

    Back on topic - Can't wait to give the standalone a go. I played WarZ for a while, and despite its downfalls (put lightly there) I really enjoyed my time on there. DayZ is going to give us so much more. The survival aspect is what will keep players engaged in my opinion. Sod 'levels' - replace that with hours ;)

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member

    dayz mod is really fun and I hope it'll be really good as a standalone game (because the arma engine really sucks balls).

    tho, games like ArcheAge or EVE online do offer good progression and freedom with somewhat severe consequences. I know more than few people who stopped playing EVE for a while because they lost a ship with cargo. :D

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

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  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BigHatLogan
    Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 

    Maybe because of the Rpg part?

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • jackel88jackel88 WrawbyPosts: 13Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by BigHatLogan
    Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 

     

    Maybe because of the Rpg part?

    Surely you don't need to grind for exp in order to play a role?

  • BigHatLoganBigHatLogan Bellingham, WAPosts: 688Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by BigHatLogan
    Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 

     

    Maybe because of the Rpg part?

    Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!

    Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
    image
    I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  • CallinCallin Florence, SCPosts: 99Member
    Dont forget that Dean made his Dev Blog Update thingy from Mt Everest Base Camp. He had to keep his climb scheduel and I dont blame him. Non Refundable 100k (his words)... yea im going climbing. 
  • MMORPGtesterMMORPGtester Home, PAPosts: 76Member

    DayZ Standalone: Last Hope for MMORPG Gaming

    newsflash, dayz IS NOT a mmorpg.

     

    massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game: an internet-basedcomputer game set in a virtual world, which can be played by many people at the same time, each of whom can interact with the others

     

    mas·sive

     [mas-iv]  Show IPA

    adjective

    1. consisting of or forming a large mass; bulky and heavy: massivecolumns.

    2. large and heavy-looking: massive forehead.

    3. large in scale, amount, or degree: massive breakdown incommunications; massive reductions in spending.

    4solid or substantial; great or imposing: massive erudition.

    5. Mineralogy having no outward crystal form, althoughsometimes crystalline in internal structure.

    Many say Dayz maps will host at top 50 players, This in itself is NOT massive.

    Don't get me started on the other letters like role playing.

     
  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BigHatLogan

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by BigHatLogan Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 
      Maybe because of the Rpg part?
    Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!

    Role Playing computer game far back as inception have a had a progression system of some type. Progression inherently means time investment * work = reward (aka grind).

    Trying to reinvent it by removing grind results in an, Action or arcade game which ultimately makes the game shallow.

    Seems to me a lot of people these days didn't really love the rpg formula to begin with and immigrated to the mmorpg genre.

    ---

    What we have with Dayz is a MMOFPS which involves shooting people in a massive persistent environment with little to no actual progression in terms of character outside of the typical fps structure. And i'm fine with that

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • BigHatLoganBigHatLogan Bellingham, WAPosts: 688Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by BigHatLogan

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by BigHatLogan Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 
      Maybe because of the Rpg part?
    Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!

     

    Role Playing computer game far back as inception have a had a progression system of some type. Progression inherently means time investment * work = reward (aka grind).

    Trying to reinvent it by removing grind results in an, Action or arcade game which ultimately makes the game shallow.

    Seems to me a lot of people these days didn't really love the rpg formula to begin with and immigrated to the rpg genre.

    Single player RPGs had some progression as a kind of side feature augmenting a storyline.  Progression is the only real feature in these theme park MMORPG games and it has become this weird substitute for fun. 

    Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
    image
    I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  • jackel88jackel88 WrawbyPosts: 13Member
    Originally posted by MMORPGtester

    DayZ Standalone: Last Hope for MMORPG Gaming

    newsflash, dayz IS NOT a mmorpg.

     

    massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game: an internet-basedcomputer game set in a virtual world, which can be played by many people at the same time, each of whom can interact with the others

     

    mas·sive

     [mas-iv]  Show IPA

    adjective

    1. consisting of or forming a large mass; bulky and heavy: massivecolumns.

    2. large and heavy-looking: massive forehead.

    3. large in scale, amount, or degree: massive breakdown incommunications; massive reductions in spending.

    4solid or substantial; great or imposing: massive erudition.

    5. Mineralogy having no outward crystal form, althoughsometimes crystalline in internal structure.

    Many say Dayz maps will host at top 50 players, This in itself is NOT massive.

    Don't get me started on the other letters like role playing.

     

    I'm going to disobey here - and ask you to get started on those letters. I'm interested in what you have to say.

    I do agree with the above though. It can't be classed as massive, clearly.

  • BigHatLoganBigHatLogan Bellingham, WAPosts: 688Member
    Originally posted by MMORPGtester

    DayZ Standalone: Last Hope for MMORPG Gaming

    newsflash, dayz IS NOT a mmorpg.

     

    massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game: an internet-basedcomputer game set in a virtual world, which can be played by many people at the same time, each of whom can interact with the others

     

    mas·sive

     [mas-iv]  Show IPA

    adjective

    1. consisting of or forming a large mass; bulky and heavy: massivecolumns.

    2. large and heavy-looking: massive forehead.

    3. large in scale, amount, or degree: massive breakdown incommunications; massive reductions in spending.

    4solid or substantial; great or imposing: massive erudition.

    5. Mineralogy having no outward crystal form, althoughsometimes crystalline in internal structure.

    Many say Dayz maps will host at top 50 players, This in itself is NOT massive.

    Don't get me started on the other letters like role playing.

     

    Massive is an ambiguous term.  You rarely see more than 50 people in a single MMORPG zone, so how is that different than 50 on a Day Z server when they are inter connected.  Role Playing doesn't require character progression (aka boring grind).  Maybe DayZ isn't a MMORPG because it is actually fun while MMORPGs require an element of behavioral conditioning to substitute for fun.  The point of this thread is that a lot of future MMORPG developers could take a page from DayZ and design a persistent world to be fun instead of designing a persistent world for people to do boring tasks in exchange for fish biscuits or whatever.   

    Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
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    I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by TuanLau
    Originally posted by lizardbones The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.
     

    And said development won't be affected. I think you left out that fun fact.

     

    http://www.gamespot.com/news/dayz-creator-taking-two-months-off-to-climb-mt-everest-6406955




    Well, that's actually good then.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BigHatLogan
    Originally posted by Nitth   Originally posted by BigHatLogan Originally posted by Nitth   Originally posted by BigHatLogan Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 
      Maybe because of the Rpg part?
    Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!
      Role Playing computer game far back as inception have a had a progression system of some type. Progression inherently means time investment * work = reward (aka grind). Trying to reinvent it by removing grind results in an, Action or arcade game which ultimately makes the game shallow. Seems to me a lot of people these days didn't really love the rpg formula to begin with and immigrated to the rpg genre.
    Single player RPGs had some progression as a kind of side feature augmenting a storyline.  Progression is the only real feature in these theme park MMORPG games and it has become this weird substitute for fun. 

    Right, But mmorpgs were built on the premise of those single player rpg's. People actually enjoyed the "grind" in those games because trying to get that character maxed out or acquiring parts for an epic sword was a fun past time.


    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,979Member Uncommon
    I was there when single player RPGs were first invented, and they were ask about progressing your character (s) before you could advance the story. In fact I recall grinding gold in Bards tale 1, (1980s) at least until I figured out how to hack the character files.

    RPGs have always been about character progression, in fact I'd call it the defining trait. What the OP is describing we used to call "adventure" games which largely died off due to a lack of interest.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • jackel88jackel88 WrawbyPosts: 13Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by BigHatLogan

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by BigHatLogan

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by BigHatLogan Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 
      Maybe because of the Rpg part?
    Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!
      Role Playing computer game far back as inception have a had a progression system of some type. Progression inherently means time investment * work = reward (aka grind). Trying to reinvent it by removing grind results in an, Action or arcade game which ultimately makes the game shallow. Seems to me a lot of people these days didn't really love the rpg formula to begin with and immigrated to the rpg genre.
    Single player RPGs had some progression as a kind of side feature augmenting a storyline.  Progression is the only real feature in these theme park MMORPG games and it has become this weird substitute for fun. 

     

    Right, But mmorpgs were built on the premise of those single player rpg's. People actually enjoyed the "grind" in those games because trying to get that character maxed out or acquiring parts for an epic sword was a fun past time.

     

    They may have been built on that premise, but that should be no reason for devs to avoid trying a different approach. We are swamped with MMORPGs which are very much the same. I think it will be good to see a change. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is the saving grace of MMORPGs, and I'm certainly not saying its definitely going to be what I'm looking for. But I want to give it a go.

  • ProGeeProGee UmePosts: 17Member Uncommon
    I don't quite understand your "last hope" thesis to be honest. Mainly for two reasons. Firstly, there are a TON of MMOlike games being developed and released as we speak, Defiance and Firefall just to name two rather large titles. Secondly, I kinda enjoy what you refer to as grind. Not grinding daily quests or Hunt Rifts in Rift. That s--t is dull as hell but gearing up a character, progressing through raids and dungeons is a nice task. At first challenging getting 20 people to nail down tactics and later on a relaxing nice way to just have fun with other people that you get to know. 
  • FoeHammerJTFoeHammerJT Broken Arrow, OKPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by BigHatLogan
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by BigHatLogan
    Why is it that MMORPGs always require a boring grind? 

     

    Maybe because of the Rpg part?

    Since when does RPG have to mean boring grind!!!!  Progression is the root of all evil in MMORPGs.  RPG means role playing game, as in taking the role of a fantasy character to affecting a virtual world.  There is no reason for countless kill 10 wolf quests to add artifical stats to a character.  It is pure carrot, and nothing more than a thinly disguised form of behavioral conditioning to keep people paying a sub fee.  Take the red pill and see the MMORPG world for what it truly has become!

    To OP: Progression does not stop anyone from playing a role or exploring content.

    Most RPG gamers have enjoyed advancement, becoming more powerful and tackling tougher challenges as a key to their enjoyment of a game. This is part of what makes a game, a game.

    Take away the levels, the gear, and the advancement and you are left with Facebook. In a pretty world or with a bunch of zombies, but mostly its a 3D social experiment. (And the Day Z experiment doesnt say much for mankind as a social experiment...since the majority of its players' attitude is shoot first, then loot, then taunt. Also, Day Z certainly has gear advancement. Its critical. I like and play Day Z but aquiring gear and building a "base of operations" are fundamental to success at the game.

    Removal of all grind leaves a social enviornment. Which can be great, but I prefer my RPGs and MMORPGs with a bit more depth. Some of us enjoy the sense of acheivement and progress. 

     

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,413Member Uncommon

    Day Z's popularity is one of the best arguments for  open, sandbox play that I've seen recently.  

     

    However, the ModBeta of it invited a certain type of play because it didn't model much cooperative advantage.  No way to combine together, build a fort,  secure a stockpile, etc.   Without that avenue, you ended up with a lot of kill or be killed behavior.

     

    Still, for me, a lot of aspects of the game would normally be anathema, but instead I am looking forward to the release. 

     

    And good luck to Hall on his ascent.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,413Member Uncommon

    Oh, progression is patently obvious to anyone who's ever studied or worked on developing a skill.   You practice...you get better.

     

    Unless, in the game you are playing, you are playing just yourself.  In which case the character only gets better as you master the interface and the design.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • JinxysJinxys TinkerTownPosts: 393Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    The guy writing the DayZ stand alone is taking two months off to climb Mount Everest.

    I hope he will be okay. A lot of climbers have lost their lives on that god forsaken mountain  :(

  • ManioxManiox GrimstadPosts: 25Member
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    Day Z's popularity is one of the best arguments for  open, sandbox play that I've seen recently.  

    Yeah, also look at minecraft, and the upcoming "The stomping lands".

    Open sandbox multiplayer games isn't an usual genre, but it's definetely one of the best, there is a reason on-rails questing mmos are dying out, while open sandbox games are growing.

    no i

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