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Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Originally posted by Taldier
just use the instant magical invisbility that lets you run directly at a line of enemies across an open field at noon without being seen, then you have to seriously balance the combat abilities of that class. Do you really just want a weaker fighter with an invisibility spell? Wouldnt it be more interesting to have a very skill based system that allowed for stealthers to have dramatic assasin like moments when played by talented players with good situational awareness?
I don't have much desire to play a stealther, but not recognizing the things they add to a players experience is foolish.... A lot of my solo memories involve walking around choke points and DF worrysome I will get jumped by a stealther at any time, made me focus more and get into the game more, felt more real. Btw they don't have to be "weaker" they can be balanced appropriately as long as they arn't stun locking from stealth or 1-2 shotting people. It's not hard to balance stealthers so they're still competitive and fun to play and not OP, but again apparently its easier to remove them then try, I lack understanding of this business case so their "creative" interpretation better not be flawed.
A ton of people enjoy the nature of play perm-stealth allows, people who afk frequently with kids, can afk in stealth and not worry about running back etc. I just don't see how you can disclude it because people cry when they die to a stealther because it's so easy to blame "they popped out of no where" as to why they lost lol.
As per your last comment, I don't understand how I don't desire that.
You seemed to be firmly against any deviation whatsoever from the "push a button = instant perfect invisibility", which is pretty much the most simplistic version of 'stealth' anyone could come up with and definitely the opposite of "skill based".
Most people arent asking for "no stealthers". Heck I'd like to play one. Just "more scout/assassin, less magical invisible pixie". Staying hidden should be a skill, not just something that happens when you press a button.
Originally posted by Tierless It's been a while since I got one of these going. So, what does everyone think the BSC stealth idea might be? I was thinking that "stealth" might actually not be class based, but rather a skill every class has that can be used every so often but with major consequences.
I don't like to deal in what if's, only absolutes. You can always wait to see what they plan on doing, just a suggestion.
Originally posted by Taldier
Most people arent asking for "no stealthers", just "more scout/assassin, less magical invisible pixie".
A little bit yea, because your other deviations arn't forms of stealth, they are just camoflauge. Many people play games for the magic ability of stealth, changing that ruins that demographic and i dislike alienating that part of a game.
I don't understand how its the opposide of "skill based". I enjoy the wow, daoc mechanics of stealth minus the stun locking / 1-2 shot opening abilities. I'm not going to fight with you again about my opinions lol, but until I see a system that you claim work at all then i'll be skeptical and you should too lol.
Don't see whats wrong with magical invisble pixie? why is it wrong there is an ability that makes you invisible in a game where you call down firestorms with your hands? like it makes no sense... the only logical reason for these people to complain is because they die and its frustrating for them...
Ozek - DAOCNiix - Other games that sucked
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek ... Don't see whats wrong with magical invisble pixie? why is it wrong there is an ability that makes you invisible in a game where you call down firestorms with your hands? like it makes no sense... the only logical reason for these people to complain is because they die and its frustrating for them...
Except every single game so far has explained away this amazing feat of being able to stare you right in the face in the middle of a sunny day while remaining completely invisible by saying: "He's hiding... because umm.. he wears lighter armor.. so he's really good at hiding...yeah..".
If being stealthy is a core part of my class, I'd prefer if its something in which I can differentiate myself from other players that play that class. If we all have the same one button that always works perfectly no matter what you do while youre invisible, thats not "being stealthy".
This argument makes no sense. You're in a magical world where people hurl fireballs and wield swords for 8 hours swinging that not even arnold could carry for more than a hour. Like it's so annoying hearing people complain about this because it makes no sense, you're in a magical world where ANYTHING can be, choosing to pick this one out is nothing more than an excuse for not liking dieing to them. This excuse has to go away, because whatever someone says behind it is Bullshit if this is the basis of their arguement. When it makes sense you can do anything that you're character can do in a video game then you can move down this path, but those games are called FPS shooters.
There is a lot that differentiates yourself from other players that play stealthers, at least in any game i've played... Bad stealthers are horrible and were easy to kill, good stealthers made names for themselves and were feared. Seeing a good stealther death spam somewhere and then venturing in that area was inheritently dangerous and knowing that going into that made the suspense that much more intense.
Stealth isn't magical, though. But I can see why developers use the "invisible" type stealth since it's going to be difficult to do it well from a gameplay perspective otherwise.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek How is it not magical? It's a magical ability in every game I've played... Silly comment try again...
Now thats a new argument. Youre saying you've never played a game where there was a difference between scouts and mages? In the vast majority of fantasy games, scouts/rogues are not magical. That was the point I was alluding to earlier.
I know I've mentioned it before in other threads but it falls right in line with Mark's vision for a BSC idea.
I could imagine a cool system using disguises and / with a possible short duration "invisible" stealth (like warhammer) if needed or desired, would have a kinda assassin's creed like feel to it or something like that.
Also sounds like they are planning a different camouflage system built along side of it as well, which can be influenced by distance, shadow , decor, movement, etc.
Which could be used for both stealther / assassin type classes as well as archer / scout like classes.
Would make it more tactical and "realistic", could be a cool system, where you become invisible not because no one can see you but because your blending in with the environment, disguised, or just not being noticed till the time you strike.
But of course there is always the meta game, where if your disguise or stealth skills aren't high enough certain classes like enemy assassin / archer classes or possibly other classes with a high enough "perception" can see through it. I'm sure there is a lot of fun things you can do here.
It would be a lot of deception and misdirection, could be interesting.
It would be more like Social Cloaking / Disguise Mastery instead of Invisibility. So you would be more like Batman / Assassin's Creed instead of being like the Predator.
Invisible steath is the solution in just about every MMO, wouldn't it be nice to try something new, different, unique, etc.. ?
Can't wait to see what Mark actually came up with though, hope he annouces it soon!
There really is tons of different things you could do other than the same old, same old, invisible stealth from every other MMO out there.
You knew I wouldn't be able to resist this thread :-P
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Originally posted by Tierless
"What is a stealther? Are they supposed to be ghosts? Some say they should just be transparent. Nobody ever believed they were BSC. Nobody ever knew them or saw anybody that ever played directly with them, but to hear Jacobs tell it, anybody could have been a stealther. You never knew. That was their power. The greatest trick the stealthers ever pulled was convincing the world they didn't exist."
Stealthers should have to limp all day, then put on sunglasses and hop in a limo when the sun goes down.
EDIT: Now that I think of it, why didn't I ever make a Valkyn SB named Verbal Kint? That's sort of awesome.
Originally posted by Taldier Originally posted by Niix_Ozek How is it not magical? It's a magical ability in every game I've played... Silly comment try again...
No i'm not, stop grasping at straws... I'm saying you're playing a game in a magical world, where all classes have access to magical abilities ... i'm referenced the mage comment shooting fireballs because you claim a stealther can't have magic ability, in a world where a mage shoots fireballs... whos to say that stealthers don't have an ability to disappear to their enemies ? like come on...
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Originally posted by Taldier Originally posted by Niix_Ozek How is it not magical? It's a magical ability in every game I've played... Silly comment try again...
Umm... the lore of all the same fantasy games that use that simplistic stealth mechanic?
Looks like youre the one grasping at straws. All the rogues in other games apparently carry around magic crystals that let them become invisible. Thats why the skill is always called "hiding" or "stealth"...
Why dont the warriors just do it too if its magic that any random cutpurse can apparently learn?
What happens when you log off your characters????.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMkDark Age of Camelot
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek What are you even taking about taldier?? Why can a Wizard cast different spells than a theurg? Oh ya because its a game and that class has those abilities available to them? Good god you make no sense Ridiculous excuses lol
That would tend to happen in any fantasy realm where there are different schools of magic that can be learned. You basically just asked why you cant learn astronomy by reading a biology textbook.
This is just getting ridiculous. You can certainly always say "magic!" in a fantasy universe, but then you explain the rules by which that magic works and how its integrated into the world. And that needs to at least make some semblance of sense. Classes are a meta construct. They have reasons and background behind them in the fictional universes to explain why they are seperate.
Warriors are stronger, rogues are more nimble, mages are more intelligent. All of those make sense and explain their fighting styles and abilities. The characters do not innately have those traits because of their class, they chose and trained in their class because they excelled in those traits.
But you dont just randomly answer the question "why can you become invisible?" with "because I chose a rogue on the character selection screen!". That is not an explanation.
Besides. If stealth is magic, why doesn't it require mana?
Or maybe it should. Thus it would be on a limited timer.
Going invisible uses mana (or stamina, in a more realistic setting). Keeping it up costs more. Moving around while continuing to remain hidden costs even more.
Be more interesting if it was more stylized with the lore. Then again, maybe it is, considering his BSC idea on the matter is being bundled with the game lore. With that, my guess is that it has something to do the Veil itself. Perhaps the "stealth" class won't necessarily stealth/turn invis, but step into the Veil instead. Here your in a copy of the world, but crueler. Blurry vision, violent storms.
With that, you could probably only be able to make out shapes what want happens in the real world. Meaning, you'd have to reappear to fathom if they're friendly or not. Also while in the Veil, you'll be completely visible not only to other players with the ability but to the actual denizens of the Veil. Meaning that actual positioning is important to reappearing, walking into Veil storms and not being detected by deadly creatures and other Veilsteppers. This would still allow for the stealth metagame.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Why is it obsurd for a stealthers to spend spec points to increase their ability to hide with the class skill "stealth" Lots of abilities in a fantasy mmo don't require mana. That's not the issue here. No ones provided any reason why having an ability or skill for stealthers to hide not make sense in a "fantasy" mmo? You just claim it doesn't make sense, it makes just as much sense for any class to have any spell or skill or ability there is no difference other then you think stealth is OP and you're complaining about it As for your part about needing a "reason" to do something lol sigh They are a fantasy assassin and twist the blend of light rendering them invisible? Who cares what reason they give you Whatever reason a game gives you for a stealther having stealth is no better than any reason they give you for why a wizard can bend the power of fire
There are certainly lots of reasons for scouts/rogues to have stealth. What you are defining is not stealth. You are talking about invisibilitiy. The ability to stand face to face with someone while dancing and singing a show tune without them noticing you.
If you scroll up, you'll see that it was you who tried to explain it away with "rogues have magic powers" which is what got us on this whole ridiculous tangent in the first place.
Certainly you could create some sort of magical assassin class, however that is not the rogue archype that people are used to playing in fantasy games.
DaoC stealth ftw! being able to move invicible as a stealther/assassain is like some allready said the most fun system of'em all. Running arround as a visible knowing there's a killer arround makes your adrenaline go up.
Besides, you're not able to just disappear with that system, if you've been damaged it takes ehum was it 10 sec untill you could restealth, that could therefore only be done if you ran away or whatever.. Oh ofcourse if you attack someone that timer also starts tick'n. Only way you could restealth in plain sight/in a fight or being dmg'd etc is if you had a realm ability wich needed RR5 if i'm not remembering it all wrong, also it could only be used once every 15min or so and was called "Vanish" wich could easilly be translated to Ninja puffs, or something like that not at all extreme.
It gives a whole other dimension of playing a stealther, also by running arround in the open RvR world as a visible knowing there might be stealthers arround. What i see in most new PvP mmo's they seem to all have just what most seem to try to blame DaoC for having, namely the "I can disappear whenever i want in any situation" skills, in GW2 those frick'n stealthers appear and reappear every second or 2 It's boring and irritating.
Being a stealther in DaoC makes you think twice each time you concidering to perf some dude in the open field because if you would fail at some point, then you might not be able to escape at all. Altho if you don't attack anyone you might be able to just scout or wait for a better moment.
DaoC stealthwar, and i have only got 1 Ranger out of 15 lvl 50s with an average RR7 in DaoC and all solo'd in the open RvR world, never had anywere near as fun in other RvR mmo's
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek What game can you stand in front of them for more than 0.5 seconds and they don't see you? Because I havnt played that game before.
Virtually every game that uses the "totally invisible stealth" mechanic?
Being broken out of stealth if someone looks towards you while you are moving is pretty much the fix I suggested to begin with 20 posts ago.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Any ability someone has in this type of world is magical so you clearly need to go outside more
No, just no. The warrior swinging a sword at you is not magical. When he does different attacks with it, those are combat skills, not magic powers. A rogue sticking a dagger into your back is not a magical attack. A rogue sneaking up on you to do so isnt magical either.
Magic has to be definied within the game universe. You dont just say "everything is magic" and shrug your shoulders.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek ... losing stealth because slmeone looks in your direction is a horrible idea lol, why is stealth such a bad thing for u? you get ganked one too many times? your reasoning is flacid and has no bearing. ...
Ok, lets start off with this part. I actually played stealth characters in most MMO's that I've played.
I dont consider a system that makes approaching a target difficult as gimping stealthers because it allows you to make the stealther more powerful when they do succeed without imbalancing the system.
Having to watch the players around you carefully, stopping and laying still when they turn in your direction, only being able to approach when look away. That sounds fun to me. its a system that requires skill and allows for players to distinguish themselves from members of the same class just on their sneaking capabilities alone. Perhaps having the cone of detection be dependent on light level so that the stealthy assassin is most dangerous in the dark and far more vulnerable if caught in an open field at noon.
Yes that honestly sounds much more interesting to me than "click button, you cant see me".
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek ... Oh sorry swinging a sword at someone which causes them to be stunned for only c seconds or snared for x seconds is not magic... Classes leaping or knocking players back is not magic? It's logical right? Please just stop embarrassing yourself you have made zero sense it's unbelievable lol Stop taking magic as per just meaning spells, magic that referring to is being able to do things that you can't irl like everything in an fantasy game, there are no barriers that make or don't make sense, you only claim they do for alternative motives
This is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on the internet.
Try getting hit by a sword ok? Stunned for a bit right? A guy cuts your leg and you'll be having a hard time running right? That is what those mechanics are meant to represent. Not magic.
Jumping is magic? Are you kidding me? Stand up right now, bend your legs and jump. Then go find someone and give them a big kick to the chest. Do they stumble/fall backwards away from you? Congratulations, you apparently now have magic powers.
Magic is magic. Magic is not just your character being more athletic than you are irl.
Everything you've said in your last half a dozen posts is just getting increasingly absurd.