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10 people are kicking the guy, guess I should too

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  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member
    Nothing is forced, all options are offered. All it comes down to are people that think they should still get the rewards for things they don't wish to partake in. 
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon

    Meh, 3 faction zergy PvP is the lowest form of PvP in my opinion anyway. I hate you because your name is red! Lets all hide in the masses and spam aoes on each other! The design itself is utterly boring to me as a PvPer. Look what we did guys, we took over a keep or whatever! Lets keep flipping them back and forth indefinitely!

     

    You never get a real sense of personal accomplishment because the system is overly dependant on the zerg. Occasionally, if you're talented, you do some funny things to noobs because they are so poor at playing the game, but that even feels completely lame. And rolling around in a group of 5 to 10 crushing stragglers for hours? Boring. It's just not that great a design for fantasy MMORPG PvP in my opinion.

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    YOU CAN OPT OUT OF PVP.

    Never enter cyrodil, never pvp, simples.

    There is no forced pvp in TESO, and the vast majority of pvpers font want forced pvp either.

    What we do want is worthwhile pc for those that choose to do it. Not
    A) watered down crap with Wolly factions, where the "pvp" is just a way for pveers to power grind their first dungeon set by actively avoiding pvp - your tsw set basicly.
    B) the wow mentality of raiders get all the goodies, screw everyone else, including pvpers AND crafters.

    So what you're saying here is that a player can completely ignore the PvP side of the game.

    If that's the case, what possible difference does it make if you allow those players to have access to the entire world, rather than restricting them to their alliance terrirory until 50? I don't get it when you say this makes the PvP watered down crap, if those players won't PvP anyway then they have no affect on the PvP for those that do play it.

    And also from your previous post about teso working like wow with the handheld questing, if that's the case it needs to be changed to a more wander off and kill stuff system. Not that any of this will happen, but that doesn't mean we don't get to voice our opinions on the subject.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by fisch1002
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

     

    Oooo got to play for 20 min and you think you know the game? How cute. Guess most MMOs get to full swing by then who knew.

    His 20 mins is a hell of a lot more exposure to the actual game play than you have had with all of your constant assumptions and accusations.

    You are right Vorthanion - 20 is infinitely more than ZERO.

    If you bet on the zero on a roulette wheel, you have a 35:1 chance to win.

    It's a long bet that is only very rarely the right one, and then only by chance.

    Interestingly, the zero on a roulette wheel is green...

     

    its not infinitely more, it is 20 minutes more than zero.  

    We don't usually calculate "greater" or "less than" using probability and statistics as you did.  The fault being it can have absurd consequences.  If you do it that way bad things like P(x) > P(y) therefore x > y  ->  so P(x) = P(y) therefore x = y -> P(7) = P(8) therefore 7 = 8.

    In conclusion, Vorthanion may be correct that 20 is a hell of a lot more, if and only if 20 minutes is a hell of a lot.

    imo it is not.  it is just 20 minutes more.  i don't put much faith in either person's opinion of the game based on 0 minutes or 20 minutes.

    Ah that didn't take long - my first post before I greatly shortened made a comment about 20 as a multiple of zero and the issue of infinity.

    Then I shortened and simplified it - as being precise and allegorical usually doesn't score you useful points round these parts. 

    Foolish me for not knowing that someone would pick up on the maths and go on about it for no particular reason relevant to the thread.

    Anyway!

    My point was, because Nan likes to deal in absolute statements without any real knowledge, I'd take an absolute statement from someone with 20 miniutes experience over his zero every... single... time...

    ...ad infinitum you might say...

    Furthermore, without so much as 5 seconds of in-game experience to back up a thing he ever states, he then turns that on its head and decries 20 minutes of experience as irrelevant. Entirely missing the ultimate irony of the relative validity his own position being based on as much less than 20 minutes as can possibly be.

     Wow just wow, sorry to say the math is flawed. There are 38 numbers on a roulette wheel 35:1 is what they may pay you, but in no means are they the odds of hitting the number (depending if your friendly casino has downtown or strip odds). The greater than or less than example is no way related to calculating probabilities. In fact 7=8 may be right in some universe, just not this one. It's almost like saying If you roll 2 dice you can come up with a number higher than twelve, because there are 36 combinations. I just came here to read about the game, and to see what people are thinking, and I get treated to "I'm credible, check this out." kind of treatment. Please remove the quote from Einstein, as you make him look bad.

    As you have elected to concentrate on the maths rather than the point I was making then yes, having never played roulette in my life I thought that the 35:1 odds payed were the odds of getting the number.

    They aren't however - they pay 35:1 and the odds against winning are 37:1 - on an American wheel in any case.

    I am now all the wiser about roulette thanks to the only vaguely constructive thing you said in your post.

    My thanks for the clarification.

    Neither figure quoted with such precision changes my point one iota... nor undermine the conclusion drawn however.

    Furthermore, as you have elected to address in response such a petty point, then I feel free to rejoin in kind. There are NOT always 38 numbers on a roulette wheel as you state, there are also wheels with 37.

    Does this add to the thread in any constructive way?

    No... but it does allow me to rejoin your post with the same kind of off-point irrelevance as an illustration.

    As for the quote - try reading it before you go for the tired old route of posting direct insults - you are the one pointing out 'knowledge', and the quote is about the greater importance of 'imagination'...

    We have enough people who insult the person posting rather than critically deal with the post on these forums and we really don't need any more.

    "I'm credible, check this out" seems to be your self-styled MMO-forum MO. Perhaps you could make it your quote rather than using it to lable others?

  • ElectricWizardElectricWizard Chicago, ILPosts: 47Member

    I have been MMOing from the date on EQ1 launch day. Been around the block 14 odd years just on MMOs, been gaming almost 30 years. Still wont see me hating and acting I know what a game is really like before I get to really try it. If the game does not fit what I want I look for another. I may say why I dont like the game and but then I walk away. Taking over every thread where fans of the game are trying to talk about the game and turning everyone of them into a hate thread is where I am getting sick of it. If the game is that bad, then go find one you like. Many here have said very clearly, unless the game is remade from the ground up. They would not play it, yet they are here every day bashing in every thread.  

    Im personally sick of the gear grind and happy with a MMO that focuses on teaming and fun over tones of heavy raid content that gets you fishing for new gear every 6-12 month. Games like GW2 and ESO are right what I am looking for. Something I can log on and play for 2-3 hours and skill matters over gear. Where I can get in any team even though I have shorter time to make my char uber like I did back in the day with EQ1 and WoW. DAoC was my first taste of that type of game play and I have been waiting for a game to do that again. I think ESO can do that. As a fan of the game I would like at least one thread where the hate stays out and we can talk about the game. That has yet to happen here.

    everytime someone calls GW2 "skill based", I vomit a little in my mouth. Got characters to 80 in GW2, full ascended/exotic and captured my share of Keeps while helping my server maintain its spot in tier 1 WvW.  And never once have i considered that a skill based game... if you think pressing a fake dodge button to avoid a red circle is "skill" then im sure the tooth fairy is still leaving you dimes under your pillow. and yes, a dodge animation, that really only makes you immune to damage until the animation ends, is fake. I could roll around in the lava while "dodging" in GW2 and take zero damage. I can "dodge" straight into that greatsword and still take damage.

    and btw GEAR MATTERS ALOT IN GW2. its just the fact that the top gear is VERY easy to get that makes people think oooh this game isnt about gear... so in the absence of gear grind, skill magically fills the void? nope.  GW2 is just as button mashy as Warcraft.. except there are FAR fewer buttons to choose from in GW2 - which one could argue, makes WoW's situational and equally hectic gameplay even more of a player challenge. I mean seriously... GW2's PVE has got to be the most casual and easy ever created... the sPVP is about as straightforward as you can get with probably less viable builds than any WoW season I've been active in... the WvW? well it puts the Z in zerg. everybody knows that.

    but hell.. its free. heh

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
     

    Don't you get it, being able to opt out of PvP is what irritates the PvPers to no end.  They WANT cannon fodder.  They want PvE in PvP areas specifically to gank questers and people not paying attention to what's happening behind their backs.

    So true.

     

    Some do.  Some of us stopped trying to play games like that a long time ago.  

    I used to enjoy that.  I liked being a ganking serial killer type in Ultima Online, Meridian 59, and various games of yore.. preying on hapless newbies.. I stopped liking it when it turned into a world full of ganking serial killer types and the herds of newbies all but disappeared.  

     

    These days i'm into RvR type of pvp games, planetside and gw2, where there are objectives and the people i'm running into are generally prepared to be in a pvp area playing a pvp game.

    There are all kinds of pvp players.  Those who just want to ruin someone else's day (like me).  Those who want sportsmanlike encounters for the thrill and challenge of it.  And all kinds of things.  

    most importantly though, there isn't one kind of game a PVPer wants and there isn't one thing that irritates PvPers.  Some PvPers don't mind opt out pvp because, in the end.. its all opt out.  every single game has an opt out of pvp option.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    YOU CAN OPT OUT OF PVP.

    Never enter cyrodil, never pvp, simples.

    There is no forced pvp in TESO, and the vast majority of pvpers font want forced pvp either.

    What we do want is worthwhile pc for those that choose to do it. Not
    A) watered down crap with Wolly factions, where the "pvp" is just a way for pveers to power grind their first dungeon set by actively avoiding pvp - your tsw set basicly.
    B) the wow mentality of raiders get all the goodies, screw everyone else, including pvpers AND crafters.

    We cannot be certain of the impact of this 'choice' Shaky - there is a likelihood (based on the design decisions which appear most DAoC-like) that there will be some, if not a sigificant amount of PvE content within Cyrodil, meaning whilst your point about PvP forcing is valid, it likely does not come without a PvE opt-out cost.

    Personally I like the idea of there being PvE stuff in a PvP zone, but it doesn't mean everyone will be happy with it.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Only many of the things tes fans are moaning about are WOW DERIVED GAMEPLAY not daoc derived gameplay.

    E.g. linear quest to quest hand held pve where you can't just wander off and find stuff to do

    I'm all in favour of being able to wander off to find stuff to do. But I can't because of the faction locking. And before you accuse me of wanting all PvP removed, I've already suggested an option for each character to opt out of RvR to allow them the freedom to wander off looking for stuff to do. You can still have your PvP, but let those that want to explore the whole world have that option.

    These people won't take part in the RvR anyway if they're that opposed to PvP so what difference would it make?

    Don't you get it, being able to opt out of PvP is what irritates the PvPers to no end.  They WANT cannon fodder.  They want PvE in PvP areas specifically to gank questers and people not paying attention to what's happening behind their backs.

    So true.

    Not even close to being true. Unless of course you think there's only one type of PVer also. Some of us actually look down on gankers and prefer PvP when everyone is expecting it. Who would have thunk it, eh?

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    JMC
    on your first point. A better soloution for pure pveers who want to just team with anyone and go anywhere, would be to COPY DAOC MORE, and implement its server model.

    Drop this one size fits all abomination that is the mega server and have.
    CORE servers that play like they propose, only better as they won't have any of this guesting in a "friends" campaign bullshit.
    COOP servers that play like EQ, no pvp, can group and guild with who the hell you like
    FFA servers that play like darkfall (well they do in daoc, they won't in TESO really as its a fair bit more themeparky than daoc)

    On your second point, history shows this kind of pvp only works with hard faction locks.
    Daoc, planetside - hard faction lock works great
    Gw2, let people transfer servers, all the easymode carebears transfer to winning server so they are "l33t" at pvp.
    Tsw, let people be chums in pve, people make cross faction guilds and farm the "pvp" by keep trading amongst themselves and berate actual pvpers for trying to pvp in the supposed pvp part of the game
    Rift - same shit as tsw.

    Rather than have Wolly "soloutions" that just break the rvr, I much rather they have separate server that is 100% pve.
  • Vynxe_VaingloryVynxe_Vainglory Princeville, HIPosts: 20Member

    I feel like open world pvp would make more sense for an Elder Scrolls title;  with crime systems in place just like the singleplayer games, except a bit more difficult to overcome.  

    If they don't at least have full PVP servers as an option, I don't see how one could consider it part of the series, really. 

    In the big Elder Scrolls titles, It has always been about freedom to steal what you want to steal, hit who you want to hit, and go where you want to go.

    The MMO MUST preserve these simple principles, lest it become an epic fail in the eyes of the people who have waited so long for such things in an online TES game.

    I fully respect anyone who wouldn't want to play in that kind of game, and I think non-pvp servers should be available.  

    But for hardcore TES fans, if we can't pickpocket the guy who seems like he's got some cheddar, or be a bandit on the side of the road, ambushing passers by.....it will be rather difficult to make it feel like TES.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    On your second point, history shows this kind of pvp only works with hard faction locks.
    Daoc, planetside - hard faction lock works great
    Gw2, let people transfer servers, all the easymode carebears transfer to winning server so they are "l33t" at pvp.
    Tsw, let people be chums in pve, people make cross faction guilds and farm the "pvp" by keep trading amongst themselves and berate actual pvpers for trying to pvp in the supposed pvp part of the game
    Rift - same shit as tsw.

    Rather than have Wolly "soloutions" that just break the rvr, I much rather they have separate server that is 100% pve.

    This seems logical, and correct.

    However, having a hard faction lock is not precluded by allowing people to chose which faction to join after they have made a character and experienced the world.

    I think a main thrust of criticism about it is that the lock comes before you step foot into Tamriel.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Caliburn
    Excuse me while I produce the worlds smallest violin

    There are 10 provinces in tamriel. One is pvp flagged, 9 aren't. Following zos changes you can, eventually, visit all 10.

    On top of that there are instanced pve dungeons and what have you.

    So less than 10% of the world is pvp.

    Don't like it don't go there.

    To those entitled types going "i can't go everywhere, boohoo forced pvp"

    Tough titty.

    Either ask for separate pve server or stop being selfish entitled gits out to break the game for those that like pvp.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Caliburn
    Excuse me while I produce the worlds smallest violin

    There are 10 provinces in tamriel. One is pvp flagged, 9 aren't. Following zos changes you can, eventually, visit all 10.

    On top of that there are instanced pve dungeons and what have you.

    So less than 10% of the world is pvp.

    Don't like it don't go there.

    To those entitled types going "i can't go everywhere, boohoo forced pvp"

    Tough titty.

    Either ask for separate pve server or stop being selfish entitled gits out to break the game for those that like pvp.

    You mean those that like 3 faction race-locked RvR style PvP where every faction is unable to see each other in the world except when in a single PvP zone.

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
     

    Don't you get it, being able to opt out of PvP is what irritates the PvPers to no end.  They WANT cannon fodder.  They want PvE in PvP areas specifically to gank questers and people not paying attention to what's happening behind their backs.

    So true.

     

    Some do.  Some of us stopped trying to play games like that a long time ago.  

    I used to enjoy that.  I liked being a ganking serial killer type in Ultima Online, Meridian 59, and various games of yore.. preying on hapless newbies.. I stopped liking it when it turned into a world full of ganking serial killer types and the herds of newbies all but disappeared.  

     

    These days i'm into RvR type of pvp games, planetside and gw2, where there are objectives and the people i'm running into are generally prepared to be in a pvp area playing a pvp game.

    There are all kinds of pvp players.  Those who just want to ruin someone else's day (like me).  Those who want sportsmanlike encounters for the thrill and challenge of it.  And all kinds of things.  

    most importantly though, there isn't one kind of game a PVPer wants and there isn't one thing that irritates PvPers.  Some PvPers don't mind opt out pvp because, in the end.. its all opt out.  every single game has an opt out of pvp option.

    Also very true. But if I was a game developer I'd much rather have the option to opt out of PvP included in my game, because I'd also much rather have a player playing the game and opting out of that one part of it, than have them not buy the game at all.

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    JMC
    on your first point. A better soloution for pure pveers who want to just team with anyone and go anywhere, would be to COPY DAOC MORE, and implement its server model.

    Drop this one size fits all abomination that is the mega server and have.
    CORE servers that play like they propose, only better as they won't have any of this guesting in a "friends" campaign bullshit.
    COOP servers that play like EQ, no pvp, can group and guild with who the hell you like
    FFA servers that play like darkfall (well they do in daoc, they won't in TESO really as its a fair bit more themeparky than daoc)

    On your second point, history shows this kind of pvp only works with hard faction locks.
    Daoc, planetside - hard faction lock works great
    Gw2, let people transfer servers, all the easymode carebears transfer to winning server so they are "l33t" at pvp.
    Tsw, let people be chums in pve, people make cross faction guilds and farm the "pvp" by keep trading amongst themselves and berate actual pvpers for trying to pvp in the supposed pvp part of the game
    Rift - same shit as tsw.

    Rather than have Wolly "soloutions" that just break the rvr, I much rather they have separate server that is 100% pve.

    This is probably a good idea but I still don't see how allowing people who have no intention of ever participating in PvP the choice to opt out of it.

    They still won't be involved in PvP in either case, but with an opt out option they get to enjoy a larger world. Why is that bad? I'd think that it would attract more players than it would deter.

    I'm not opposed to PvP but I do think that the RvR proposed for the game is nothing to do with TES and more of a gimmick the developer is using. TBH it just looks like they're trying to copy not only DAoC but also GW2 in an effort to offer something they think will make the game a success.

    It's just not very Elder Scrolls.

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vynxe_Vainglory

    I feel like open world pvp would make more sense for an Elder Scrolls title;  with crime systems in place just like the singleplayer games, except a bit more difficult to overcome.  

    If they don't at least have full PVP servers as an option, I don't see how one could consider it part of the series, really. 

    In the big Elder Scrolls titles, It has always been about freedom to steal what you want to steal, hit who you want to hit, and go where you want to go.

    The MMO MUST preserve these simple principles, lest it become an epic fail in the eyes of the people who have waited so long for such things in an online TES game.

    I fully respect anyone who wouldn't want to play in that kind of game, and I think non-pvp servers should be available.  

    But for hardcore TES fans, if we can't pickpocket the guy who seems like he's got some cheddar, or be a bandit on the side of the road, ambushing passers by.....it will be rather difficult to make it feel like TES.

    I've made this exact point before but you'll just get replies from people saying that they don't want a DF or MO approach because you get too many genkers etc. Therefore the RvR system makes more sense to them even if it goes against TES principles. Heaven forbid that they have deterrents to ganking like EvE has, that would be too much to ask for obviously.

    If PvP has to be included then by rights it should be a more free system than faction locked warfare.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, any MMO based on the Elder Scrolls needs to be more sandbox than themepark.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Caliburn
    Excuse me while I produce the worlds smallest violin

    There are 10 provinces in tamriel. One is pvp flagged, 9 aren't. Following zos changes you can, eventually, visit all 10.

    On top of that there are instanced pve dungeons and what have you.

    So less than 10% of the world is pvp.

    Don't like it don't go there.

    To those entitled types going "i can't go everywhere, boohoo forced pvp"

    Tough titty.

    Either ask for separate pve server or stop being selfish entitled gits out to break the game for those that like pvp.

    You mean those that like 3 faction race-locked RvR style PvP where every faction is unable to see each other in the world except when in a single PvP zone.

    Well oddly enough now you're getting really close to the reason for the locked factions: when you have an open world with everyone able to go anywhere and it's a PVP game a limited number of factions is nonsensical. The only thing that makes sene in that environment is anarchy with 100 gangs, or guilds if you prefer, all going at it...just like in Darkfall.

    But if you're going to have a game with a more defined political structure, be it 2, 3 or 6 sided, it makes no  sense to have intermingling everywhere except for the one place where you suddenly remember you want to kill each other. That would be like having a football game not a war simulation. If you don't create peaceful but separate home regions for each side with an adjoining war zone the whole premise falls apart.

    to me this basic fact is such a no brainier that it boggles my mind people try to argue against it. 

    I have no problem with people preferring one type of game to the other as you do. But trying to tweak one to be more like the other type is nonsense.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Although of course they could have a daoc style FFA server for those people too.

    The main case if all this grief is this stupid megaserver idea.

    If they had proper servers, they could have different rulesets. Not only that, but the rule set they gave chosen would work better on a proper server.

    I don't get why they though it was such a good idea. Look at games with simmilar setups like tsw and sto, they are hardly roaring success are they.
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Although of course they could have a daoc style FFA server for those people too.

    The main case if all this grief is this stupid megaserver idea.

    If they had proper servers, they could have different rulesets. Not only that, but the rule set they gave chosen would work better on a proper server.

    I don't get why they though it was such a good idea. Look at games with simmilar setups like tsw and sto, they are hardly roaring success are they.

    I have to say I'm in complete agreement here. Zenimax must have anticipated the kind of reactions we've seen from some of the ES fans with regards to it's RvR system.

    It would make a lot more sense to offer different rulesets to attract as many players as possible. I can understand the reason for a mega server approach, it deals with the issues of new servers popping up at launch only to be shut down or merged later on.

    Then again if they offered a few different "megaservers" with different rulesets they get the benefits of a) attracting more players and b) the convenience of not having to open up and later merge shards.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Caliburn
    Excuse me while I produce the worlds smallest violin

    There are 10 provinces in tamriel. One is pvp flagged, 9 aren't. Following zos changes you can, eventually, visit all 10.

    On top of that there are instanced pve dungeons and what have you.

    So less than 10% of the world is pvp.

    Don't like it don't go there.

    To those entitled types going "i can't go everywhere, boohoo forced pvp"

    Tough titty.

    Either ask for separate pve server or stop being selfish entitled gits out to break the game for those that like pvp.

    You mean those that like 3 faction race-locked RvR style PvP where every faction is unable to see each other in the world except when in a single PvP zone.

    Well oddly enough now you're getting really close to the reason for the locked factions: when you have an open world with everyone able to go anywhere and it's a PVP game a limited number of factions is nonsensical. The only thing that makes sene in that environment is anarchy with 100 gangs, or guilds if you prefer, all going at it...just like in Darkfall.

    But if you're going to have a game with a more defined political structure, be it 2, 3 or 6 sided, it makes no  sense to have intermingling everywhere except for the one place where you suddenly remember you want to kill each other. That would be like having a football game not a war simulation. If you don't create peaceful but separate home regions for each side with an adjoining war zone the whole premise falls apart.

    to me this basic fact is such a no brainier that it boggles my mind people try to argue against it. 

    I have no problem with people preferring one type of game to the other as you do. But trying to tweak one to be more like the other type is nonsense.

    A war simulation isn't peaceful but separate. In war, someone's homeland is getting fucked up. Perhaps in the states it feels like both places are peacful but separate, but that's just not how it works.

     

    Suddenly remembering you want to kill each other is no less stupid than never seeing a single enemy in their own lands. Not even being able to attack the enemy factions lands is incredibly stupid if you are attempting to emulate war. I'm surprised that you don't understand why that argument is incredibly flawed.

     

    You start with the premise that they should have dev-determined factions at all. All that does is cheapen the experience incredibly in my opinion. The "I'm on red team, your on blue team so die" method feels just as artificial as a WoW battlegrounds. They could have made it like Darkfall, sure. But they also could have made it factionless. They could have removed PvP from the gameworld entirely and kept it to large scale instances or even smaller conflicts like BGs.

     

    Actually, isn't this PvP zone going to have to be instanced anyway? How many people are they going to try and put in this single zone at a time? Please, don't tell me they are going to layer instances on top of each other.

     

     

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Well oddly enough now you're getting really close to the reason for the locked factions: when you have an open world with everyone able to go anywhere and it's a PVP game a limited number of factions is nonsensical. The only thing that makes sene in that environment is anarchy with 100 gangs, or guilds if you prefer, all going at it...just like in Darkfall.

    But if you're going to have a game with a more defined political structure, be it 2, 3 or 6 sided, it makes no  sense to have intermingling everywhere except for the one place where you suddenly remember you want to kill each other. That would be like having a football game not a war simulation. If you don't create peaceful but separate home regions for each side with an adjoining war zone the whole premise falls apart.

    to me this basic fact is such a no brainier that it boggles my mind people try to argue against it. 

    I have no problem with people preferring one type of game to the other as you do. But trying to tweak one to be more like the other type is nonsense.

    Question for you that has been bothering me for some time...

    As it stands PvP only takes place inside Cyrodil. This happens for 2 reasons. First reason is because that is how the game is designed. 2nd reason to justify the game design is that each faction has agreed, in a gentlemans agreement type of way, that there will be no fighting outside Cyrodil.

    So if that is the case WHY prevent travel between faction lands? I mean, the system already prevents factions fighting outside Cyrodil and the faction leaders have banned it so PvP outside Cyrodil just will not happen (assumming we are all brain dead automatons incapable of free thought but seeing as we cannot choose NOT to fight ofr our ractial faction that is a given right?).

    So if the PvP only takes place in Cyrodil and the faction leaders have banned PvP outside Cyrodil why is there also a need for faction locked lands? I am guessing it is the "players are too stupid to work it out so we designed is that way" mantra because other then that I cannot think of a valid reason to lock faction lands. And no, the whole "faction pride" argument doesn't wash, countless examples have been given to prove it isn't a valid argument.

    So other then that is just how it is, why do you think there are faction locks?

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Well oddly enough now you're getting really close to the reason for the locked factions: when you have an open world with everyone able to go anywhere and it's a PVP game a limited number of factions is nonsensical. The only thing that makes sene in that environment is anarchy with 100 gangs, or guilds if you prefer, all going at it...just like in Darkfall.

    But if you're going to have a game with a more defined political structure, be it 2, 3 or 6 sided, it makes no  sense to have intermingling everywhere except for the one place where you suddenly remember you want to kill each other. That would be like having a football game not a war simulation. If you don't create peaceful but separate home regions for each side with an adjoining war zone the whole premise falls apart.

    to me this basic fact is such a no brainier that it boggles my mind people try to argue against it. 

    I have no problem with people preferring one type of game to the other as you do. But trying to tweak one to be more like the other type is nonsense.

    Question for you that has been bothering me for some time...

    As it stands PvP only takes place inside Cyrodil. This happens for 2 reasons. First reason is because that is how the game is designed. 2nd reason to justify the game design is that each faction has agreed, in a gentlemans agreement type of way, that there will be no fighting outside Cyrodil.

    So if that is the case WHY prevent travel between faction lands? I mean, the system already prevents factions fighting outside Cyrodil and the faction leaders have banned it so PvP outside Cyrodil just will not happen (assumming we are all brain dead automatons incapable of free thought but seeing as we cannot choose NOT to fight ofr our ractial faction that is a given right?).

    So if the PvP only takes place in Cyrodil and the faction leaders have banned PvP outside Cyrodil why is there also a need for faction locked lands? I am guessing it is the "players are too stupid to work it out so we designed is that way" mantra because other then that I cannot think of a valid reason to lock faction lands. And no, the whole "faction pride" argument doesn't wash, countless examples have been given to prove it isn't a valid argument.

    So other then that is just how it is, why do you think there are faction locks?

    Replayability as a business decision.

    If you roll a new race/faction you get a new starting area and new lands to explore so the longevity of the game is extended without meaningful effort since the content is already there.

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by baphamet

     


    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Eol-

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by ShakyMo Only many of the things tes fans are moaning about are WOW DERIVED GAMEPLAY not daoc derived gameplay. E.g. linear quest to quest hand held pve where you can't just wander off and find stuff to do
    Have you ever played an Elder Scrolls game? the quests are linear and the meat of how you play it is "wander off and find stuff to do". I would go so far as to suggest that a good many elder scrolls players are NOT looking for wow game play.
    But there will never be enough 'wonder off and do stuff in a MMORPG' material, they simply cant create it fast enough. ESPECIALLY when you factor in levelling, and they cant do what they did in the elder scrolls where they automatically had all the material level along with you, so that every nook and cranny could be level-appropriate. That cant work well in a MMORPG obviously so it makes the job that much harder. And you play Skyrim for what, a month or two? And then run out of stuff to do. Which obviously doesnt keep people subscribing to a MMORPG. The bottom line is that its impossible to create Skyrim online and make money off of it, without adding some sort of a MMORPG endgame. SWTOR was a pretty good game without an endgame and look what happened there. No sensible investor is going to repeat that.
    I think there are many elder scrolls players who have played the heck out of daggerfall, morrowind, oblvion and Skyrim with their  finite content. I know I've played the latter three for years on the finite content. And I met many at the PAX Elder Scrolls party who did the same.

     

    What you are trying to say is that the only hope for any mmo is a pvp endgame. I wonder what all those pve players who never ever touch pvp would say to that?

    And not all the elder scrolls games had content level with you, and in the same way. Besides, no one is asking for that. I imagine that there are many ES players who hated how Obvlioin had the content level with you.

    And the idea that you said "play skyrim for a month or two' pretty much shows you dont' get it. Been played skyrim steadily since launch thank you very much.

     


     

    i asked you once before, how many hours do you have logged into skyrim?

    IMO yes this mmo needs endgame. it doesn't necessarily need to be pvp but there has to be enough content to last for years (in theory)

    if someone has played skyrim steadily since launch, which is about a year and a half, i would expect you to have at least 75 - 100 days played in skyrim, which is very reasonable.

    i seriously doubt you played skyrim that much with the same character without playing different mods to keep the game new and fresh.

    even if you did i would wager serious money that you are in the vast minority there.

    i would also wager that the vast majority of skyrim players have less than 300 hours logged into skyrim.

    that's 300 hours vs 75-100 days a casual but dedicated mmo player would have in that same time frame, probably more though.

    regardless of how you feel about this mmo, its going to need endgame content of some sort to keep the masses playing for months if not years, which is the goal of any mmo.

    I have 774 hours logged into skyrim.

    And as another post posited, ESO would need more sandbox elements to make it such a game where people could tool around to their heart's content without "an end game".

    The only mods I use are armor/Weapon mods and mods that make the dragons harder, Change the lighting, etc. Only one player made adventure mod which is very well done but I could only play through it once as there are several fetch quests which just never engaged me.

    I have three characters in Skyrim and I play each one differently though most of my time is on a Main. levels 69/30/25. I lost 10 levels by accidentlaly saving over my main file/character so made those up again. Same with second character, lost 8 levels and replayed them.

    Since it's a role playing game I actually adopt "a role" for the character and create my own objectives.

    Getting back to "endgame", though I have no problem with (and prefer) a pvp endgame, what do the pve players do? is ESO to all of a sudden lose a chunk of their playerbase? no, they are going to implement pve content. There are larger overland encounters, which I presume replace raids, and eventually the "Adventure Zones".

    So there is a host of pve players who really don't care and don't need the pvp portion of the game.

     

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by Maelwydd

    Question for you that has been bothering me for some time...

    As it stands PvP only takes place inside Cyrodil. This happens for 2 reasons. First reason is because that is how the game is designed. 2nd reason to justify the game design is that each faction has agreed, in a gentlemans agreement type of way, that there will be no fighting outside Cyrodil.

    So if that is the case WHY prevent travel between faction lands? I mean, the system already prevents factions fighting outside Cyrodil and the faction leaders have banned it so PvP outside Cyrodil just will not happen (assumming we are all brain dead automatons incapable of free thought but seeing as we cannot choose NOT to fight ofr our ractial faction that is a given right?).

    So if the PvP only takes place in Cyrodil and the faction leaders have banned PvP outside Cyrodil why is there also a need for faction locked lands? I am guessing it is the "players are too stupid to work it out so we designed is that way" mantra because other then that I cannot think of a valid reason to lock faction lands. And no, the whole "faction pride" argument doesn't wash, countless examples have been given to prove it isn't a valid argument.

    So other then that is just how it is, why do you think there are faction locks?

    Replayability as a business decision.

    If you roll a new race/faction you get a new starting area and new lands to explore so the longevity of the game is extended without meaningful effort since the content is already there.

    You don't need to start a new character anymore. You just do the content 50+. And assuming they follow the same suit other 3 faction MMORPGs do, you will be locked to a single faction anyway.

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by Maelwydd

    Question for you that has been bothering me for some time...

    As it stands PvP only takes place inside Cyrodil. This happens for 2 reasons. First reason is because that is how the game is designed. 2nd reason to justify the game design is that each faction has agreed, in a gentlemans agreement type of way, that there will be no fighting outside Cyrodil.

    So if that is the case WHY prevent travel between faction lands? I mean, the system already prevents factions fighting outside Cyrodil and the faction leaders have banned it so PvP outside Cyrodil just will not happen (assumming we are all brain dead automatons incapable of free thought but seeing as we cannot choose NOT to fight ofr our ractial faction that is a given right?).

    So if the PvP only takes place in Cyrodil and the faction leaders have banned PvP outside Cyrodil why is there also a need for faction locked lands? I am guessing it is the "players are too stupid to work it out so we designed is that way" mantra because other then that I cannot think of a valid reason to lock faction lands. And no, the whole "faction pride" argument doesn't wash, countless examples have been given to prove it isn't a valid argument.

    So other then that is just how it is, why do you think there are faction locks?

    Replayability as a business decision.

    If you roll a new race/faction you get a new starting area and new lands to explore so the longevity of the game is extended without meaningful effort since the content is already there.

    You don't need to start a new character anymore. You just do the content 50+. And assuming they follow the same suit other 3 faction MMORPGs do, you will be locked to a single faction anyway.

    I dont understand your answer, i was working under the assumption presented by the posters i quoted that you can NOT travel to the other factions lands.

    I.e. its not like WoW where I can go to Kalimdor and just quest in the Dark Elves area.

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