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Wildstar - raiding focus officially explained

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  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,281Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by danwest58

    This game will straight up fail and here is why. 

    First there are a ton of MMOs out there with raiding in them and raiding overall is going downhill as the only endgame content.  One can argue against this fact all they want, raiding is loosen interest and more and more people want sandbox type MMOs or Small 10 or less group content

    Second they can say all they want and the hardcore crowd can say all they want that 20 and 40 man raiding is great, guess what the average MMO population disagrees.  You are not going to have successful 20 or even 40 man raiding with a niche group of players like just the Hardcore raiders.  It will not happen, that is why WoW and EQ2 got away from the large raids and moved down to 25 and 24 man raids respectively after just 2 years.  After 4 more years we have 12 and 10 man raids which are 92%+ of overall raiding guild population.  Fact is Large raiding is die never to come back in the way EQ2 and WoW did it

    Third for 40 man raiding to be successful WoW had 5 Million players during vanilla, WildStar WILL NOT have that size population off of just Hardcore players.  Hardcore players were less than 1% of WoW’s raider population back during Vanilla.  So a 50K to 100K players will not make this game move forward. 

    The hardcore EPEEN population can disagree with me anytime, however the fact is when guilds like Paragon close down from a 25 man raiding guild to a 10 man because how hard it was to find hardcore raiders.  Just this alone will tell you that old school hardcore 40 man raids WILL NOT work there is no way it will last long term.  Games can talk all they want about being Niche the problem is the only way these Niche games can remotely work is if they have a subscription base that can support the cost of the development of the game, and the operation of the game.  Right now Subscription WoW clone based games are not working and have to go F2P with a subscription and a cash shop to make up the money that they spent.  The business plan with today’s MMO market does not make any sense. 

    I agree with your assumption, but for different reasons. 40 man raids are epic. That along with battlegrounds can't be your  main plan for endgame though.

  • farkusfarkus LA, CAPosts: 3Member

    I like the idea of 40 mans myself, but I cannot understand why so many people seem willing to write the game off entirely because of 40 mans.

    How does the fact that the game has a feature aimed at a specfic demographic affect you if you are not in that demographic?  I feel its like saying, "Oh they have PvP in this game and I don't like PvP, therefore the game sucks."

    40 mans are just one of many features.  If you don't like 40 mans I don't see why that should turn you off from the game any more than someone who doesn't like arenas.  If you don't like them, dont play them.  Play the other parts you do like, simple as that.

    To me one of the most potentially exciting things about this game is the fact that there seems to be a lot of *legit* endgame content outside of raiding.  The housing system looks very robust and seems to be something a lot of time could be spent in.  Same with Warplots.  And then the standard BG/Arena pvp. 

  • allegriaallegria San Francisco, CAPosts: 682Member

    Very nice to hear raiding is going to be a focus... i always thought it was the pinnacle of what an MMO is supposed to be.. teamwork in a large grp etc...

    In fact, i would love to see them NOT have battlegrounds for once and promote some good world pvp too... 

  • tintilinictintilinic aPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by farkus

    I like the idea of 40 mans myself, but I cannot understand why so many people seem willing to write the game off entirely because of 40 mans.

    How does the fact that the game has a feature aimed at a specfic demographic affect you if you are not in that demographic?  I feel its like saying, "Oh they have PvP in this game and I don't like PvP, therefore the game sucks."

    40 mans are just one of many features.  If you don't like 40 mans I don't see why that should turn you off from the game any more than someone who doesn't like arenas.  If you don't like them, dont play them.  Play the other parts you do like, simple as that.

    To me one of the most potentially exciting things about this game is the fact that there seems to be a lot of *legit* endgame content outside of raiding.  The housing system looks very robust and seems to be something a lot of time could be spent in.  Same with Warplots.  And then the standard BG/Arena pvp. 

    In every game with raiding focues everything else was screwed up. Even PvP until PvP was made completely separate game.

    So yah, "having raiding" affected whole game. Theres a small chance WS wont be like that but thats really small chance and people just dont bother with it.

  • super_phreaksuper_phreak LondonPosts: 1Member

    I used to take part in 40 man raids back in the day.  Whilst the boss encounters were fun, the trash was beyond dull.  I think that the challenges possible with 40 people, as well as the difficulty would be great, but i vividly remember what a pain it was trying to get 40 people together.

     

    Personally I'm all for it, especially as there is an option for 20m too, but (and i expect to get shouted at here) I would also like a casual 40m option that would allow casual players such as myself to experience it, without having to "nolife" or sacrifice in the real world in order to take part.

  • flameflame RoskildePosts: 31Member

    Thing is, imo, that there should be content/raids not available to the casual player (read: the dude who logs in every now and then to play an hour or two), because it adds a sense of accomplishment and something to strive for, which is missing in A LOTof mmo's these days. And  making content available to everyone and their dogs isn't "fair" to the hardcore players and, well, these players will probably find something else to play then.

    I remember back in the days where I was like "whoa, dude where did you get that <insert gear here> from??"  cause they looked so fricking awesome, knowing that I'd have to really step up my game to be able to get it myself. It was fun and, like said before, added something to strive for.. It's really important imo.

    These days I personally won't have the time to keep the hardcore raiding going every other day but I still like to see people who have and their bling bling rewards, so I have something to drool about :)

  • KrvavorukiKrvavoruki DobojPosts: 6Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by flame

    Thing is, imo, that there should be content/raids not available to the casual player (read: the dude who logs in every now and then to play an hour or two), because it adds a sense of accomplishment and something to strive for, which is missing in A LOTof mmo's these days. And  making content available to everyone and their dogs isn't "fair" to the hardcore players and, well, these players will probably find something else to play then.

    I remember back in the days where I was like "whoa, dude where did you get that from??"  cause they looked so fricking awesome, knowing that I'd have to really step up my game to be able to get it myself. It was fun and, like said before, added something to strive for.. It's really important imo.

    These days I personally won't have the time to keep the hardcore raiding going every other day but I still like to see people who have and their bling bling rewards, so I have something to drool about :)

    My thoughts exactly

  • silvermembersilvermember saint paul, MNPosts: 531Member
    Originally posted by Krvavoruki
    Originally posted by flame

    Thing is, imo, that there should be content/raids not available to the casual player (read: the dude who logs in every now and then to play an hour or two), because it adds a sense of accomplishment and something to strive for, which is missing in A LOTof mmo's these days. And  making content available to everyone and their dogs isn't "fair" to the hardcore players and, well, these players will probably find something else to play then.

    I remember back in the days where I was like "whoa, dude where did you get that from??"  cause they looked so fricking awesome, knowing that I'd have to really step up my game to be able to get it myself. It was fun and, like said before, added something to strive for.. It's really important imo.

    These days I personally won't have the time to keep the hardcore raiding going every other day but I still like to see people who have and their bling bling rewards, so I have something to drool about :)

    My thoughts exactly

    Only MMORPG players can say something so pathetic and be proud of. YOu play games to have fun, if you are playing for the "achievement" maybe you should reconsider your life choices.

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon
    I use to be interested in Wildstar, but more and more is released and has me feeling like we're back in the early 2000's again. The same old raid/gear grind carrot on the stick. Totally not interested in that again. Been there done that...

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member
    Originally posted by super_phreak

    I used to take part in 40 man raids back in the day.  Whilst the boss encounters were fun, the trash was beyond dull.  I think that the challenges possible with 40 people, as well as the difficulty would be great, but i vividly remember what a pain it was trying to get 40 people together.

     

    Personally I'm all for it, especially as there is an option for 20m too, but (and i expect to get shouted at here) I would also like a casual 40m option that would allow casual players such as myself to experience it, without having to "nolife" or sacrifice in the real world in order to take part.

     

    If they could make their raiding dungeons similar to The Secret World - which pretty much did away with trash mobs and cut the dungeon times down from 3 or more hours to 1 at the most - but still has plenty of challenge, that would be awesome.  But I have a feeling with the old school mentality of these devs it's going to be the long dungeons full of trash route.

  • flameflame RoskildePosts: 31Member
    Originally posted by silvermember
    Originally posted by Krvavoruki
    Originally posted by flame

    Thing is, imo, that there should be content/raids not available to the casual player (read: the dude who logs in every now and then to play an hour or two), because it adds a sense of accomplishment and something to strive for, which is missing in A LOTof mmo's these days. And  making content available to everyone and their dogs isn't "fair" to the hardcore players and, well, these players will probably find something else to play then.

    I remember back in the days where I was like "whoa, dude where did you get that from??"  cause they looked so fricking awesome, knowing that I'd have to really step up my game to be able to get it myself. It was fun and, like said before, added something to strive for.. It's really important imo.

    These days I personally won't have the time to keep the hardcore raiding going every other day but I still like to see people who have and their bling bling rewards, so I have something to drool about :)

    My thoughts exactly

    Only MMORPG players can say something so pathetic and be proud of. YOu play games to have fun, if you are playing for the "achievement" maybe you should reconsider your life choices.

    While a bit hostile, I respect your point of view. I agree that we play games for "fun" but "fun" has a very broad definition and to me I like a challenge in games. Having content in a MMO that requires some sort of ability to organize and sort a bigger band of people just adds that more fun imo.

    When I want some fast paced action here and now I go play a shooter or whatever that does not require a lot of me, I just think that a lot of mmo's are taking that approach which is the wrong way.

  • NikopolNikopol The ZonePosts: 626Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by flame
    Originally posted by silvermember
    Originally posted by Krvavoruki
    Originally posted by flame

    Thing is, imo, that there should be content/raids not available to the casual player (read: the dude who logs in every now and then to play an hour or two), because it adds a sense of accomplishment and something to strive for, which is missing in A LOTof mmo's these days. And  making content available to everyone and their dogs isn't "fair" to the hardcore players and, well, these players will probably find something else to play then.

    I remember back in the days where I was like "whoa, dude where did you get that from??"  cause they looked so fricking awesome, knowing that I'd have to really step up my game to be able to get it myself. It was fun and, like said before, added something to strive for.. It's really important imo.

    These days I personally won't have the time to keep the hardcore raiding going every other day but I still like to see people who have and their bling bling rewards, so I have something to drool about :)

    My thoughts exactly

    Only MMORPG players can say something so pathetic and be proud of. YOu play games to have fun, if you are playing for the "achievement" maybe you should reconsider your life choices.

    While a bit hostile, I respect your point of view. I agree that we play games for "fun" but "fun" has a very broad definition and to me I like a challenge in games. Having content in a MMO that requires some sort of ability to organize and sort a bigger band of people just adds that more fun imo.

    When I want some fast paced action here and now I go play a shooter or whatever that does not require a lot of me, I just think that a lot of mmo's are taking that approach which is the wrong way.

     

    Indeed. What is "fun"? What most people find fun, I find plain boring. A game has to inspire me in some way.

    So I'll go one step further. For practical purposes, I guess I can even say I don't play games for fun! :) Just like I don't see movies to have fun or read books to have fun.

     

  • BigdaddyxBigdaddyx California, WAPosts: 1,986Member Uncommon

    I was reading this topic and i felt i am back in 2005...then i saw the date nope..it is 20th April 2013!!!!!!!

    Sorry dear devs but i have moved on from raiding gear tread mill. You can not treat me like a hamster anymore.

  • ragz45ragz45 rochester hills, MIPosts: 687Member Uncommon

    Wildstar is the perfect example of the divergence that we have going on in the MMO community at large.  Half of the MMO players want a casual game they can log on for an hour or two every few days and feel like they accomplished something.  These players have a demanding job, kids, etc etc.  They just can't dedicate hours and hours daily to an MMO.  (gw2 is a perfect example of this)

    The other camp want the carrot on the stick.  They want a really hard, demanding end game.  They want something that will take hours and hours out of every day for them.  Something they can get lost in for a good portion of their day.  This type of game has to have a hardcore end game.  Something for people to really want to strive for. (Wow is to this day, a perfect example of this)

    Neither camp is wrong, they just both want very different things from their games.  So future MMO's need to really decide what they can do to make either camp happy.  Wildstar is doing just that.  They have one elder game geared toward the dedicated raiders.  The raids are going to be difficult, challenging, & fun.  At the same time they have a lot of elder games geared toward the casual players.   (Arenas, Battlegrounds, Warplots, Housing, Exploration, Story quests, Dungeons, Adventures, Path content)

    So you have 1 elder game for the Hardcore, and 9 elder games for both hardcore & casual players to enjoy together.  Yes there will be sustainable content, at the end game, for all of the elder games listed.  Yet the casual players are bitching so much because the hardcore players got 1 elder game to enjoy, when they have 9 others they can take part in easily enough.  Put your petty jealousy aside, and just enjoy the other 9 aspects of the game that are being tailored just for you.

  • SiveriaSiveria Saint John, New BrunswickPosts: 1,200Member Uncommon
    You also need to add in the fact that most of these games the raiding is pretty much pointless due to a lack of anything to use the raid gear for. I dunno I just don't see the point to raiding for gear myself when there is nothing to use it for. Most of these newer mmo's since wow have seperate special stats on gear for pvp so its useless there, you don't need raid gear to farm stuff, sure you can use it to get into higher end raids but what I am looking for is a non-instance raid use for the gear, closest thing might be rift with the zone events and such.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • steelheartxsteelheartx Biloxi, MSPosts: 432Member Uncommon
    Persoanlly i would much rather have the end game focus be on raiding instead of doing dailies over and over and over again.

    Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !

  • flameflame RoskildePosts: 31Member

    Actually, I just saw a thread over at wildstar central discussing not only raids but overall effort vs gear, and there were many good points. I still think difficult raiding is important and that the players should be rewarded accordingly but great gear shouldn't be limited to raiding only.

    There should be multiple ways to get awesome gear; crafting, pvp, long and difficult quest chains and so forth are just a few examples, you name it... One thing they all should have in common though is, that it would take some sort of effort and again, more effort = higher profit. I'm not saying that hardcore raiders should get all the best loot because, hypothetically, some craftable items could be even harder to make than killing a raid boss, and therefore the crafter should be rewarded for that (etc etc).

    Oh and btw, what's up with the general idea of hardcore raiders = no lifers, with no jobs and so forth? :D I think you need a reality check. Most raiders I've known are people with successful jobs, families etc., that instead of going to the pub or whatever spends a couple of hours a couple of days a week to raid with their friends ;) Just throwing it out there.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,461Member Uncommon

    I am disappointed becuase he misses the point of his own speech about what makes a good game ,not Raiding.

    EVERY single thing he talks about can be done with a normal less alienating group size.you do not EVER need large groups or Alliance size parties.

    I would like to know how he figures a 40 man raid is any more skillful than a 6 man party fight?he talks about not being designed  for a one shot kill,ya so what,it still does not warrant needing 40 man groups.Maybe i should direct to him to some REdmage fights from FFXI that are 1-2-3 hour long SOLO fights.

    The ONLY time 40 man comes into play is if you merely give the Foe several million hit points and/OR a fast regen that needs a steady flow of dps ot kep it going down, anything relating to hit points NEVER equates to being anymore fun or challenging.

    All that type of system does is aienate those who cannot or do not have the time to put 40 man groups together.I just don't get it,i guess he really must be an Old Wowish type thinker,i mean he says it with his owns words but it's like he is not listening to himself.Even IF you do have the time and manpower,you are limited to when you can do that content,not like ANYONE is going to have 40 people on standby ready at a moments notice.

    What he talks about is exactly what adores me to this game,the combat has a reactive,thinking type combat,adding in 40 players does not change anything,you just have more players reacting,nothing more.I mention this becuase he knows what makes the combat good but is not listening to himself.

    Of course it is early but will really need to see if there is ANY HAte mechanisms.I fear by implementing this new system the mobs will simply react  [IF there is HAte mechs]with say perhaps an AOE instead of concentrating on a Tank that tries to hold hate.I suppose there could be Telegraphs that could target anywhere but sure looks to me like they are always focused outwards from the source.

    I really want to look forward to this game but if the system designers are thinking about making WOW with a twist,it will be disappointing.I still see a LOT of positives from this game,so i hold up some hope.

     


    Samoan Diamond

  • VembumeesVembumees WildStarPosts: 79Member
    Originally posted by ragz45

    Wildstar is the perfect example of the divergence that we have going on in the MMO community at large.  Half of the MMO players want a casual game they can log on for an hour or two every few days and feel like they accomplished something.  These players have a demanding job, kids, etc etc.  They just can't dedicate hours and hours daily to an MMO.  (gw2 is a perfect example of this)

    The other camp want the carrot on the stick.  They want a really hard, demanding end game.  They want something that will take hours and hours out of every day for them.  Something they can get lost in for a good portion of their day.  This type of game has to have a hardcore end game.  Something for people to really want to strive for. (Wow is to this day, a perfect example of this)

    Only thing I'd argue in your post is that on the first part there are at least 4 minimum AAA mmorpg's on the market at this point. WoW, Swtor, TERA, GW2, even Rift. TESO is going to fit the needs of that player 100%. You can do everything in those, including raiding with just 1-2 hours per day gametime, if you want to bother (most don't, but just bring excuses).

    To your 2nd bar, there is no such game on the market right now. No world of warcraft really isn't one of them, it doesn't appeal to those "dedicated" players already a long time. How can you call WoW today a game with hard, demanding end game if 90% of the players who were doing the "hard, demanding end game" have been quiting the game constantly from the start of WotLK. WoW at this point is not hard and demanding, it's a timesink of farming a bunch of shiteasy casual noob player content just to get to the 1-2 hard bosses. WoW at this point is farming 200 hours of molten bore and then you suddenly get to fight c'thun. There isn't a "hardcore endgame" game on the market and that's the market wildstar wants to hit with their raiding, "apparently". For the last ~3-4 years there have only been shit games and wow with "farm LFR quality content until you get geared enough for heroic patch finale boss" and thousands of quiting hc raiders each patch.

  • flameflame RoskildePosts: 31Member

    Wizardry, I understand where you're coming from but why would you have so hard solo content and not even harder group content in a mmo? Massively multiplayer online.. (Not a bash, you know what mmo stands for). This genre of gaming is by its own definition designed for a lot of players to play with or against each other. Solo content is nice to have but it's the multiplayer content that keeps my interest.

  • HedeonHedeon GraestedPosts: 954Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    I am disappointed becuase he misses the point of his own speech about what makes a good game ,not Raiding.

    - snipped most-

    in my perspective the whole reason to have raids is to ensure the game become social, atleast that is the only reason I stayed in EQ2 for a couple of years too long, because of raiding, though I think 40 man sounds like abit too many, know how it is with 24 people, where progression raids would be terrible long or impossible without a filled raid, then it make me abit worried about how it will be with 40....

    but atleast in EQ2 they have several fights where they make use of all 24 players, and actually make it more fun because of the needed organization - and well a couple of those my guild just never were able to clear...but those we were able to just felt amazing to win, cant beat that feeling ever...something I never had in a 6 man instance no matter how hard it was.

    also never really cared about the gear from raids, as anything more than "unlocking" the next raid, and then complete the main quest line of the expansion, which have become too lazy designed the past few years in EQ2, since they have gone away from the original design and turned it into just a group instance grinder, where as instances used to have a point, so people would do them once for their own sake, then help out others complete it, but with very rare items that werent NEEDED, but just a carrot for those who had alot of time, and ofc made it "worth it" to help others for the chance of the rare drop.

    anyways the good have outweight the bad for me in raids, even if it have been frustrating at times as well.....but MMOs need big group activities to keep them as social gaming, and thus last longer than a month or 2 - not even saying it have to be traditional raiding...but my imagination to what it can be aint good enough - even though it somewhat worked in GW2, just in GW2 it is a problem when the flow of people stop coming, and then the big group activity doesnt happen.

  • FadernFadern LulePosts: 37Member

    Alot of players miss old Vanilla-wow. This is the new vanilla wow with arenas and housing.

    Epic gear is only epic if a few players have it. If you give epics to all the casual players the feeling of epic will dissapear. Yeah it sucks not to have epic gear but I for one loved vanilla back when I was a noob and I looked up and drewled at those cool looking player characters with shining armor idling around in Ironforge. I didn't curse and spat at them and wishing for free epic´s. No I worked my but off gearing my way upp to my first raiding guild and prooved I was a good player. So for Wildstar I really´hope that not 9 of 10 players will have epic gear after 2 weeks after reaching max level. That type of game already excist. That doesn't mean there should be nothing to do for casuals, nor having epic gear for them aswell. I hope that the casuals or solo players can get really good gear but only working for their but of and with hundreds of hour of playing.

     

    I wow back in vanilla and TBC there were later encounters that took countless of hours before we could clear it but boy the feeling of accomplishment when the boss went down is one of the funniest experience of my life. Most of the hard encounters were only hard because they only needed one or two people fucking up for the entire group to fail. And the funny thing was that it was usually different players who fucked up every other try. And around it went. It was frustrating but that was the charm. It was not only depending on your performence but if you want a game for that there are thousends of others. Skyrim or Zelda for exmaple.

     

    There can be an disscusion about if the group size should be 10, 20 or 40. And I tried them all. But in the end, the larger the group was, the more epic it felt. And the larger the group the less people raiding = less epics =more epic.

     

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