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How are you handling the multiplayer crisis?

2

Comments

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    I'm not feeling any "crisis" because I don't depend on a videogame. Sorry to hear you're having a crisis however, and I honestly hope you manage to work your way through it.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • metal0xmetal0x pizza, ILPosts: 30Member

    I wouldn't say crisis either. Its more like a stagnation in good mmo's. Espacialy the RPG genre. WoW I think has worn out a lot of people who played this kind of game over a long period of time. That is why we are seeing flat line or plateau in game development in this for a while now till recently.

     

    To anwser the question "What am I doing to handle this crisis?"

     

    I'm actually playing more then one game right now. Before I would just focus on one game. Now if I get bored playing one game I switch to another an play it for a little while till I get bored again and switch to another I feel like playing. That is all I can do now beside watching anime/TV when I'm just sick on gamming altogether.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,670Member Uncommon
    ...

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,670Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JasonJ
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by xKopogerox

    Fact is

    Stopped reading here. Opinions aren't facts.

    It's nice to kick start this thread with a troll. Dictionary.com says otherwise though.

    something that actually exists; reality; truth

    And what makes my opinion if it's based upon what the definition above states?

     Because your opinion is not based on the actual market, it's based on your subjective experiences and perceptions which makes it... not fact.

    /thread

    Nothing else really needs to be said after that.

    .

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • PWN_FACEPWN_FACE SeoulPosts: 670Member

    I voted that I'm very happy because I have 2 games I'm playing now (Darkfall and Defiance) that I'm very happy with. There are a couple of other games I would play if I had time, and a couple more that I would try. In my book, I'm glad I have options. In addition to what's available now, there are a few interesting new games coming out in the near future that I would like to try  as well. 

     

     

  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by JasonJ
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by xKopogerox

    Fact is

    Stopped reading here. Opinions aren't facts.

    It's nice to kick start this thread with a troll. Dictionary.com says otherwise though.

    something that actually exists; reality; truth

    And what makes my opinion if it's based upon what the definition above states?

     Because your opinion is not based on the actual market, it's based on your subjective experiences and perceptions which makes it... not fact.

    /thread

    Nothing else really needs to be said after that.

    .

    God damnit...Mt Dew all over the damn place now. :p

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,749Member Uncommon

    1. Multiplayer means multiplayer.  MMO means massively multiplayer.  It's a big distinction.  Say what you mean.

    2. We are so far from a multiplayer crisis, the title is laughable.  Multiplayer is more prevalent than ever, and MMOs continue to be common.

    3. Some have questioned whether MMORPGs are RPGs.  Those players apparently didn't play every other videogame RPG ever released, or they'd understand videogame RPGs are about character progression, storyline, and a twitch-lite combat system.  I don't know of any game which labels itself "MMORPG" which doesn't fit that description, and modern MMORPGs certainly do story better than early ones did.

    4. Being older doesn't mean you stop liking games and start liking worlds.  For most people, as adults our time is more valuable than ever which means we don't want to throw it away with meaningless downtime when we could be spending it doing something fun.  Although for me there was never really a time I was accepting of my time being wasted -- if there was it was only because I didn't know better at the time.

    5. Companies do acknowledge that what's good sells.  This comes in two forms: (a) companies try to make high-quality games (they don't always succeed,) and (b) companies pursue the genres and sub-genres which are most successful.

    Lastly, if there's a crisis at hand it's mostly that companies have frequently copied the skin-deep featureset of WOW without really copying the design philosophy which resulted in WOW's success: cut away the fat and deliver fun gameplay.  Some companies have come quite close (Rift imo), while most fail (which is to be expected: 80% of everything is crap.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member
    Oh my God...image

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt

     

    3. Some have questioned whether MMORPGs are RPGs.  Those players apparently didn't play every other videogame RPG ever released, or they'd understand videogame RPGs are about character progression, storyline, and a twitch-lite combat system.  I don't know of any game which labels itself "MMORPG" which doesn't fit that description, and modern MMORPGs certainly do story better than early ones did.

     

     I agree with everything else.

     But twitch-like combat systems are not a definition of an RPG. I would claim that the absense of such a system would be the definition, but many rpg games, more and more over time, have just such a system. 

    RPGs started out with turn based system, but since MMOs they have replaced that with a cooldown system or similar.

     As for story telling.... Well modern MMORPGs certainly have way more focus on telling stories to the players. Most of it is ignored... or are you telling me that I am the only one that ignores the majority of quest text and lore that is in these modern MMOs? To me it gets in the way of MY story. And that is what I miss from the earlier MMOs.. that I was creating a story within the game. 

     I happen to like the old style better. As a bonus it is also cheaper to make... As long as the game concept is sound to begin with.

     

  • xKopogeroxxKopogerox ShebattPosts: 68Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm not feeling any "crisis" because I don't depend on a videogame. Sorry to hear you're having a crisis however, and I honestly hope you manage to work your way through it.

    Who said anything about me having a crisis? I'm having a blast as usual, but on the other hand you seem to be having a crisis coprehending a simple question.

    "How are you handling the "multiplayer crisis"? it doesn't ask:

    "Are you going through crisis with the current state of MMO's?"

    To make it as simple as 2+2 for you so hopefully you don't confuse yourself again:

    MMO's are going through crisis not I. That's mostly evident in their longevity, complexity and most important the size of the playerbase they are able to attract and keep in the longterm.

    Notice how the MMO trend been going these days. Advertise, launch your typical, rushed out, cheap and simple to make themepark B2P/P2P model. Offer some lifetime deals as well then turn it to F2P in next 6 months to a year then milk it as much as possible and abandon it.

    The "abandon ship" phase is mostly evident in the timeframe of future updates/content delivered.

    Example: Company delivers a MMO, 50% of its earnings go to someone elses pockets (due to greed obviosly and not caring for the game), rest 50% to all other remaining costs for future maintenance and development. 

    Company loses 50% of the playerbase less than a year = 50% less updates/content to expect afterwards. No content/updates in a themepark designed MMO = abandon ship.

    I on the other hand was fortunate that for the last 2 years, 3 months and 8 days saved more $ than I could possibly imagine, thx to the lack of appeal from any new MMO that came out with similiar formulas and I still had a great time either playing something older or doing other activities.

    Experience does pay off and the last thing you want is to make yourself believe that I depend on a video game to avoid crisis.I can bet on my life that in those last 2 years, 3 months and 8 days you shelled out $ from your wallet on a new MMO, which makes you more dependant individual who's going through more MMO crisis than I ever did.

     

    Starcraft oldschool aka wise/04. SWG/UO aka Wise HeRo, Light Jedi Knight pre-cu (Bria)

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm not feeling any "crisis" because I don't depend on a videogame. Sorry to hear you're having a crisis however, and I honestly hope you manage to work your way through it.

    Who said anything about me having a crisis? I'm having a blast as usual, but on the other hand you seem to be having a crisis coprehending a simple question.

    "How are you handling the "multiplayer crisis"? it doesn't ask:

    "Are you going through crisis with the current state of MMO's?"

    To make it as simple as 2+2 for you so hopefully you don't confuse yourself again:

    MMO's are going through crisis not I. That's mostly evident in their longevity, complexity and most important the size of the playerbase they are able to attract and keep in the longterm.

    Notice how the MMO trend been going these days. Advertise, launch your typical, rushed out, cheap and simple to make themepark B2P/P2P model. Offer some lifetime deals as well then turn it to F2P in next 6 months to a year then milk it as much as possible and abandon it.

    The "abandon ship" phase is mostly evident in the timeframe of future updates/content delivered.

    Example: Company delivers a MMO, 50% of its earnings go to someone elses pockets (due to greed obviosly and not caring for the game), rest 50% to all other remaining costs for future maintenance and development. 

    Company loses 50% of the playerbase less than a year = 50% less updates/content to expect afterwards. No content/updates in a themepark designed MMO = abandon ship.

    I on the other hand was fortunate that for the last 2 years, 3 months and 8 days saved more $ than I could possibly imagine, thx to the lack of appeal from any new MMO that came out with similiar formulas and I still had a great time either playing something older or doing other activities.

    Experience does pay off and the last thing you want is to make yourself believe that I depend on a video game to avoid crisis.I can bet on my life that in those last 2 years, 3 months and 8 days you shelled out $ from your wallet on a new MMO, which makes you more dependant individual who's going through more MMO crisis than I ever did.

     

    I really think you might be on to something here. It's funny how a person doesn't always recognize something until it's written down in front of them. Tell me more about this whole 2+2 thing.

     

    /sarcasm

     

    You are the one who says there is a crisis. You're the one witnessing a crisis.  I'm saying I'm not experiencing a crisis.  I'm guessing that it's a good thing I didn't make a question, because you're having difficulty with my statement.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member

    I was playing Dragon Nest for a few weeks with a friend of mine, and the multiplayer rules in that game since you don't have to have a group of more than two people for quite some time and can do Hard and Master with two people.  Unfortunately, DN is also a Nexon game, meaning that the cash shop is stupid and holds you back, not to mention it has the worst idea in cash shops EVER - time limit items, ones you pay more than a few cents for, that's for sure.

    I digress.  The game could be better, but the problem I see with most games nowadays is that there's no real multiplayer scaling.  GW2 tries, but even with just two people, the mobs are too easy...

    What I'd like is a game like WoW that allowed you to invite people to your server and for every friend that joins (up to a max of 6 or 8 I'd say), the game gets harder and the rewards get better (if you're in the same area).  I know, that's what MMO's are for, but I'm talking about when you don't want to be social with tons of people and just play with a few.  You could still have epic content, but without trying to get 25 people to work together.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,749Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by WW4BW

     I agree with everything else.

     But twitch-like combat systems are not a definition of an RPG. I would claim that the absense of such a system would be the definition, but many rpg games, more and more over time, have just such a system. 

    RPGs started out with turn based system, but since MMOs they have replaced that with a cooldown system or similar.

     As for story telling.... Well modern MMORPGs certainly have way more focus on telling stories to the players. Most of it is ignored... or are you telling me that I am the only one that ignores the majority of quest text and lore that is in these modern MMOs? To me it gets in the way of MY story. And that is what I miss from the earlier MMOs.. that I was creating a story within the game. 

     I happen to like the old style better. As a bonus it is also cheaper to make... As long as the game concept is sound to begin with.

     

    Twitch-lite.  Meaning it doesn't have more than light twitch elements (which includes turn-based games.)

    If quest-text-blocks were the only form of story which existed in MMORPGs, you could claim to ignore it.  But the storyline weaves throughout most of the game: from the quest-text to the quest actions to the NPC behaviors to the world itself (if well-crafted, a world itself tells little story snippets to players,) to player stories completely separate from the game story.

    You'd have to be impressively anti-story (anti-RPG) to completely block out every ounce of story that's poured into MMORPGs, and I think you could probably only be successful at it in early MMORPGs.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    Well, to start with, I'm not experiencing a crisis. I am playing a lot of Minecraft Feed the Beast mod, in between playing The Secret World, Bioshock Infinite and Don't Starve. My problem isn't that there's nothing to play, my problem is that I don't have enough time to play everything I want to play.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xKopogerox

    Fact is the market today is saturated with average at best multiplayers, thus making the audience scattered through many different MMO's due to uncertanty and lack of one clear and better choice. WOW was that choice until last few years and that's not longer the case, which of course has its pros and cons.

     

    and how exactly did you come up with this fact?

    because you don't like WoW i'd guess?

     

     

    maybe IF you would still play it, you still had a good MP game (at least if you have a decent guild)

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • aWRAYaWRAY Elk Grove, CAPosts: 84Member

    Quit living in the past my friend. About a year ago I too was in the same position you are in shouting "Those damn developers don't know anything".

    After taking a long break and then returning, I was once again having fun. I realized that it wasn't the markets fault or the way the genre has "devolved"... It was me. 

    I know that probably doesn't make sense to you just yet but I'm sure it will click soon. Same thing goes for most addictions and the "chase" that comes along with it

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    Its the market. It has changed. For better or worse it doesn't look like it is going to be going back. What solidified the market for me, that is to say, when I realized the market or genre was for me was when I realized I wasn't buying 20 games a year. There were only a handful of mmos to play. This along with the fact that I met a lot of great people really gave me the notion that I was in the right place.

    It simply isn't about that anymore. These companies don't care about making a lasting game. All they care about is getting as much money as they can as quickly as they can. Even if the developer doesn't feel this way, the NCSofts and EAs of the world don't want it any other way. Unless some prodigy can come along and create 100x as much game for 1/2 as much money (repop might be that game .. might not .. too early to tell) .. there is no going back.

    Warcraft, Guild Wars, Eq2 .. that first .. "next gen" of MMOs were still MMO enough to be multi player games because the systems, the core of the game, was designed around 500k people or so. Now games are designed to appeal to everyone and their 4 year old brother, and that is not going to change.

    Sure we could say "we're not going to buy any more of these games" but sadly, we are the minority. For the 500k of us willing to sub to a real MMO, there are millions of console gamers who don't care at all about what MMOs were originally supposed to be about, and just want to chew through the next big thing, especially when it lets them show off in a multiplayer environment.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aWRAY

    Quit living in the past my friend. About a year ago I too was in the same position you are in shouting "Those damn developers don't know anything".

    After taking a long break and then returning, I was once again having fun. I realized that it wasn't the markets fault or the way the genre has "devolved"... It was me. 

    I know that probably doesn't make sense to you just yet but I'm sure it will click soon. Same thing goes for most addictions and the "chase" that comes along with it

    This ^

    There are a lot more games, the demographic is changing, and with it the types of games. That said we have some PHENOMINAL multiplayer games. We also have a lot of crap. Anytime you have a saturated market you can expect more of the later, because it's easier to make crap, and quite difficult to make that masterpiece of a game.

    Don't make the mistake of assuming that to be a fun multiplayer game, something needs to be an MMO. It doesn't. As we are finally moving away from the WoW-clone generation of MMOs, we are starting to realize (slowly) that MMOs come w/ their own set of problems. You have to make sacrifices to make a game in which 100s or 1000s of people all share the same space.

    Just to name a few killer multiplayer games on the market atm:

    Natural Selection 2

    Mount & Blade

    GW2

    Fat Princess

    Team Fortress 2

    Dota 2 / LoL

    There's a good number of fun multiplayer games if you look at what's available. Try something new / different. Heck that's I found out about Natural Selection 2, and Mount & Blade and they're two of my fav games atm.

  • mistmakermistmaker viennaPosts: 232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by xKopogerox

    Fact is

    Stopped reading here. 

    stopped reading here. i am sure you read all. 

  • ComanComan Hattem, AKPosts: 2,034Member Uncommon

    I am handeling this crysis by playing Darkfall, Defiance and Guild Wars 2. This crisis really striking me hard. I have a sense of dispear! I would even call it worse then the financial crisis! To make it worse, so many 'avarage' multiplayers on the list to be release I might play. Not sure if I will survive. 

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    I will make it short and quick.

    Developers have been pushing for the f2p model for two reasons.It allows them to make a cheaper product expecting less feedback for doing so.It allows them to secure less cost of development and less cost runnign the game.

    Almost every single game right now smells of f2p quality,sadly they are being supported so it sends a real bad message.It tells devs they can just use mass marketing instead of quality to sell a game.There has been a lot more of the PR BS as well,telling the gamers what they want to hear like "We listen to you the gamer" "Your actions will change the world" "We aim more for fun because we listen to what the gamers want"  ,you know all that those BS PR speeches.

     

     

    I usually try not to complain much about free to play games considering I almost never put out any cash for them, but I do think you have a point about it sending a bad message to developers. It would help explain why the MMO/multiplayer market is the way it is right now.

    its not the "Free to Play" that is sending a bad message to developers. It is the people who pay for the low quality and bad business practice, that send the bad message to developers. Devs make a low quality game (or a high quality game) and manage it in a wrong way where only they win by nickle and diming beyond belief. Players who support that are telling the devs they are doing a great job and want more of that.

    That also applies even to subscription mmos that are bad and still charge the sub.

     

    I would say boycott anything that is not fair game for both sides, players and company. A win-win for everyone. If only the players win the game fails without making profit. If only the devs win thats pure greed and shouldnt be acceptable (dumb players who support that, which is what sends the bad message  mentioned before).

    image
  • ClaudeSuamOramClaudeSuamOram Hartville, OHPosts: 122Member
    Originally posted by Vidir
    Originally posted by xKopogerox

    Fact is the market today is saturated with average at best multiplayers, thus making the audience scattered through many different MMO's due to uncertanty and lack of one clear and better choice. WOW was that choice until last few years and that's not longer the case, which of course has its pros and cons.

    Guild Wars 2 I believe had something going, but for me it wasn't enough to commit to a purchase despite the massive hype I remember this site had for it. If you look at the current hype for all upcoming MMO's you'll notice one clear picture, it will be more of the same at least until the end of the year.

    Last multiplayer I played was just to pass and kill the time until something bright comes on the horizon, but it will be longer than I hoped it will, therefore this poll fits perfectly to help the community deal with the current crisis.

    So how are you handling the crisis?

    For me if I do get involved with something from what's avaliable at the moment it must be free. I know I won't be committed to it and the ideas, executions, and the direction of todays MMO's do not cater to my preferences. Path of Exile was the best example of a short lasting MMO that helped me shell out a month or two. Then I had to do other things like catch up on TV series, and rarely, casually try some singleplayers, which these days do not appeal to me much.

    As a someone who's been playing hardcore over the years, I must admit it's been an interesting change of pace and I'm curious to see how others are handling these MMO crysis as well.

    If all is certain is the fact that at the end happiness does not depend on knowledge and I believe still a significant portion of the younger audience is enjoying many MMO's out there right now. I know this because when I was 6-7 years old and new to gaming I played virtually everything with passion and over and over. Games at the arcade, and most NES, SNES and PSX console games that were coming out last decades were my best childhood I could ask for.

    I'm not that person anymore. I'm not 7-8 years old for better or worse, but I can still picture myself having a blast playing a game just like back in the days. If I had a choice between playing many of the F2P multiplayers today or paying $30-50 monthly for a next generation,  massive, virtual mutliplayer world developed by a far larger team with far more features, complexity and overall depth and maturity behind it.

    Companies and developers I believe should aknowledge that what's good sells and what's not, not so much. There are guilds merging to overcome bigger challenges, there are teams working together and I believe that's whats lacking the most in todays gaming industry. Companies not working together, not wanting to deliver something bigger in the picture than what's already avaliable and without big risks, there won't be big rewards, not for companies or players like me.

    I admit, I'm probably minority, but I do believe one day I want to be part of a game so complex and massive that when mentioned most wont look down upon or consider just a "childs game" or "not good enough for the multi millionaires irl.

    The sad truth is how we do have the technology today to deliver such pruduct, but the product is still missing. At the end I don't want to know that I was born 50-100 years earlier to miss on such epic game. I know one thing for sure thu, whoever will be behind it, designing that game will require massive love toward gaming, commitment and understanding.

    You can't have a guy who chosed other things over gaming to be behind the development such game. You can't have a guy who put other things 1st like $ and family. It must be someone who's played most games out there over the last decades and not just played, but played like a champion.

      

     

     There are no crisis.

    Things are changing thats all.Players dont want to be looking for groups all day long. You kill the dragon by yourself or with a friend. No more 6 houre forced raids 4 days every week if you want to get decent loot. Good gear is not anymore made for raiders only,that is good.

     

    [mod edit]

    But I understand what you mean and feel. I still patiently wait for a MMORPG. Hasn't been one in YEARS IMO. What we have now I'd more define as MOCSG's (Massive Online Console Style Game's). No role playing, no multi-player (As most ignore others anyways since you can solo nearly everything but "end game"). Sure....some interaction is still required, but only if you have something to offer the other player usually so they can get their next shiney, then they ditch you in a heart beat. All that matters for community are tight knit Guilds of elitists trying to get all the server 1st's. You join one of these guilds and play like it's your job...or play a month until capped and move on to the next game to rinse and repeat.

     

    Call this jaded or me a disgruntled vet, bah blah blah. It's what I have seen through the experience having played over a decade plus to see it's evolution (I use that term gingerly, could say de-evolution in some ways). If these newer ones had open worlds, crafting that was worth doing, and  more options other than racing to cap for "end game" so you can sit in a capital city spamming for a group if not in one of those big elitist Guilds they might be worth something more than a month or two look.

     

    [mod edit]

  • VorchVorch Somewhere, FLPosts: 800Member

    There is no crisis.

    Just people who let their idea of perfect get in the way of ever having fun.

    People used to have fun playing with sticks and a tennis ball in the street; yet, when given a plethora of options in MMOs, many people have trouble finding anything fun.

     

    "As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    There was so much wrong in that original post I just gave up.

    No. Just... No.

    Another Online Prophet of Doom fails to win over new converts or instill panic in his audience.

    Does the fault lie in the delivery, or in the message?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BrucyBonusBrucyBonus londonPosts: 220Member
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by xKopogerox

    Fact is

    Stopped reading here. Opinions aren't facts.

     

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