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Originally posted by GreenHell Originally posted by Torik Originally posted by WW4BW Players, that only started after MMOs truly got massive, wont touch a game where things take time, where you can lose your progress, or where you have to figure out what you want to do, rather than having quests flashing at you.
That's because games that waste players' time and make you lose progression tend to not be very immersive.
I agree with the losing progression part. Never did enjoy that. The wasting time part though is so open to personal preference. In SWG I enjoyed wasting time on things that would in no way progress my toon. I enjoy doing stupid shit sometimes just for the sake of doing it.
I think you got that wrong. We were discussing timesinks; such as having to walk somewhere or sitting down to regenerate health or mana. Or having to wait 5-10 minutes for a boat or something like that..
Wasting a bit of time sorting your inventory or trying our different dyes on your armor.. or seeing how fast you can run from one end of town to the other... well sure you wont progress, but I hope you had fun doing it.. Or what ever it was you were having fun wasting your time on.
But that was not what we were discussing :P
When i think immersion video game wise........ how can i explain this..
ok you look at a mirror and you see yourself looking at yourself. And you know you're looking in a mirror because you can see yourself looking at the mirror as yourself looks back at you.. If you've never stopped to think "hey man thats pretty cool" well then just stop reading.
When i play games its like a mirror but instead of the mirror mimicking what im doing in the real world.. My "reflected image" is carried over into this imaginary land and proceeds on in its own adventure which is commanded by real world me.
Since this is a "reflection of me" my sense of immersion can be interrupted by.. Looking like everyone else, inability to ineract with the world, unable to jump, cant swim, copy paste world, pathways to everywhere, story being the main aspect of the game, on rails gameplay, being told what to do, no choices, no freedom.. etc..
Im not talking about some lawless setting of total anarchy either.. but just enough to where the groups form.. The groups where everyone knows you for the quality of your character.
And the character itself was a representation of you.
Thats how good an evil is formed in a virtual world
Not forcing it through a locked selectable side.
I do still understand however that its a game.. and within the realm of the game certain things should exist to keep things fair..
as sandbox as i am i've never been a full supporter of losing all your shit.. That in all honesty is just totaly lame to me.. I am however all for item decay when dying..
you dont lose your shit but the items take like 10% hit.. it encourages crafting and a player economy.. maybe not a fast rate but it keeps the player who just died still playing your game and not logging out because they lost everything..
idk man.. starting to ramble..
Those are my feels.
Originally posted by WW4BW Originally posted by GreenHell Originally posted by Torik Originally posted by WW4BW Players, that only started after MMOs truly got massive, wont touch a game where things take time, where you can lose your progress, or where you have to figure out what you want to do, rather than having quests flashing at you.
Yea its late and Im tired. So carry on.
WoW is a great example game in this topic since it has lived a long life so far and a lot of changes happened in it. The simple truth is that WoW had tons of human interaction in it's original version, and these days it has basically none at all. That's why I have a problem with all these accesibility tools.
Though they are not the only reason for this. Dungeon finder alone does not do this, the real bad guy here is cross-realm tech and dumbed down difficulty. You enter dungeon with complete strangers, you propably wont meet them again, there's no reason to talk to them since you basically cant utilize them later or become friends with them like before cross-realms stuff.
Then the difficulty, when you just AoE everything in seconds, there's not much reason to talk about tactics at least. So there's basically 5 persons playing this content in singleplayer together.
Though the dungeon tool adds to all this too, it's so easy to just "pop-in" that if anything goes wrong in the dungeon, people again say nothing and just leaves, and then que again when the cooldown is off. We actually had reputations back then, and server communities where people knew each others more or less, and knew that they will meet again.
Back in the day, when we had to put group together, or perhaps more because we had to run to the dungeon, people were willing to work together better since they had to make that trip. Now they dont have to make that trip and can just pop-in and pop-out without moving an inch.
I'm curious for the OP though, if you dont care about immersion at all and are there just for the gameplay alone, does it not matter at all an in the slightest what the setting or story is then? I dont understand (I'm not saying this in a negative way) how people can completely separate them from these worlds created for us and just focus on the mechanical side of the game, is it like in Matrix seeing the code pouring down before your eyes being able to ignore the rest of the world? Hehe
To me, immersion is about avoiding having to consciously suspend disbelief.
This can be because I hit an arbitrary barrier to what I can do (eg: the edge of the map), the intrusion of real world conversaion (eg: almsot any game's global chat channels), glitches/pauses that make me notice the client is sitting between me and my character or any situation where the reactions of game characters or other players seems out of character. One of the more unexpected things that can break my immersion is frustration; unlike many players, I'm not a challenge-seeker and if the game tries too hard to funnel me into a situation where I start asking "do I want to do this?" instead of "does my character want to do this?", it breaks immersion.
Originally posted by Kuinn WoW is a great example game in this topic since it has lived a long life so far and a lot of changes happened in it. The simple truth is that WoW had tons of human interaction in it's original version, and these days it has basically none at all. That's why I have a problem with all these accesibility tools. I'm curious for the OP though, if you dont care about immersion at all and are there just for the gameplay alone, does it not matter at all an in the slightest what the setting or story is then? I dont understand (I'm not saying this in a negative way) how people can completely separate them from these worlds created for us and just focus on the mechanical side of the game, is it like in Matrix seeing the code pouring down before your eyes being able to ignore the rest of the world? Hehe
I wouldnt personally say that WoW was a great example of this. Except for the evolution it has gone through, as you describe.
But if WoW is the frame of refence you are most familiar or comfortable with I wont argue the point, except to say that I was already missing human interaction in WoW at launch.
When immersion for gaming is mentioned its typically refering to pulling the player into the environment of the game. When we discuss full immersion it refers to:
To create a sense of full immersion, the 5 senses (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste) must perceive the digital environment to be physically real. Immersive technology can perceptually fool the senses through:
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery
Originally posted by Akumawraith When immersion for gaming is mentioned its typically refering to pulling the player into the environment of the game. When we discuss full immersion it refers to: To create a sense of full immersion, the 5 senses (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste) must perceive the digital environment to be physically real. Immersive technology can perceptually fool the senses through: Panoramic 3D displays (visual) Surround sound acoustics (auditory) Haptics and force feedback (tactile) Smell replication (olfactory) Taste replication (gustation) For the most part trying to take a game to full immersion would be a lengthy and costly series of projects. No game company today can offer anything close to immersion... most offer the best they can... false promises
You spent waaaaay to much time writing that.. And you missed a couple of senses too.. Oh and you completely missed the point.
What the thread is about is how we to some degree accept the game as something "real". We accept that there are orcs and elves, magic, and that for some reason everyone is speaking english.. or in the case of some games them other guys only speak some gibberish that we can never hope to comprehend. The thread is about how far we can stretch our imagination in relation to thinking of our characters as persons with wants and needs and for that matter the personhood of NPCs. How believable the whole virtual world is. About how we possibly imagine ourselves in that world.
And then about how sometimes there are some things that instantly rips us out of our daydreaming and imagining because it makes no sense in the context of the game.
This could be someone talking about RL sports or RL politics in chat or gold seller spam. Having global chat. Having loot bind to your character on pick up constantly. Having monsters spawn in front of you or behaving in an otherwise illogical way. All sorts of things..
Some of these we accept and often overlook (because its a game) Others just dont make sense and ruin the illusion of being in a different but "real" world.
It is the same with any sort of fiction. We sit down and we are prepared to accept some things that we know arent facts.
But when there are too many instances of "deus ex machina" or, in the case of gamechat, real life creeping in. The bubble bursts and what we now see in the cold light of day is a pale immitation of what we helped create by filling in gaps with our imagination.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
Originally posted by Doogiehowser Imeersion is a personal thing. various players get immersed by various features. For me personaly... Great music Day and night cycles Rich lore and background Dynamic and active NPC (not just cardboard cut outs which stand at one place) Diversity in flora and fauna Diversity in landscape Cities, villages, out posts, social hubs bustling with life List is endless but these are the main things which make an immersive world for me.
There is no game where I didnt tried to disable the damn music after a while.
Day and night cycles usually annoy me a lot, because at night you cant see anything.
I have repeatedly tried to get the lore of games and its always just awful stereotypical crap.
I strongly prefer the NPCs I need to stand still and be there always.
Diversity in environments, about that one I agree. What I dont like about Tomb Raider 3 or every post nuclear war game I tried is that you are in the desert all the damn time.
I know no game that ever tried to actually "bust" with life. The limits of graphic power are always making this impossible.
Awesome thread and topic, with some great answers.
In particular I would like to give a nod to: Zeppelin5083, Axxxar, Sovrath, XAPKen, Raithe_Nor, grafh, Orious, Aelious and Kuinn for thoughts which mirror my own.
Still, I will try to put it in my own words and maybe add something new.
Immersion comes in different forms IMHO:
There is IC (in character) immersion. Where you suspend reality and become the character.
There is third person immersion where while you are maybe not the character you are following the characters story and are drawn in to empathising with the character.
There is plot immersion where you are following the story like a reader. Maybe following a character - and perhaps guiding them on their journey andtrying to see a story through (quest line).
They can all work (in the right place) and they are working well when you become engrossed and want to see what happens next.
They work best when the world fits together and everything seems 'normal' for that setting (whatever it is).
Immersion breakers are things that snap you out of that "reality". It could be a bug, an 'unrealistic' mechanic, instant travel which is out of context, a loading screen (not done right), other players behaviour or chat to name a few.
And it's surprising how even little things and details can make a huge difference.
IC immersion really needs a good strong believeable plot. Some single player FPS do this okay actually. They had a pretty good go in games like Half Life, Red Faction and even recently Portal 2. In MMOs it is harder to maintain because of other players.
Third person immersion and plot immersion can work well in MMOs. Immersion breakers are badly done loading screens between zones, players running around with swords out all the time and standing on tables etc, weak NPC quests etc.
Couple of examples:
Vanguard is actually very immersive if you actually take your time to read the text. Particularly following the diplomatic quest lines I find. The stories I have found so far don't feel as 'fake' as the usual ones (eg "Buggas my pet snail has run off into the woods... I suspect he is afraid of the goblins...so... can you bring me 10 rat's tails?") In Vanguard the NPCs seem to have concerns and their own point of view. Also, you have to have a certain reputation (be helping their cause) before they will talk to you. So you cannot kill all their friends then say "What about a job huh?"
In The Chronicles of Spellborn your character had a "fight stance". You could draw your sword, and put it away. That little touch made a big difference. In the PvP zones this was a real winner. You would meet someone on the bridges at Ringfell (I think that was the place?) and you would size each other up. You would hover your fingers of the 'fight keys' and move real sloooow... it gave the game an atmosphere and a feel. Also in that game was the pilgrimage to the Athenaeum (spelling?) where it took 8 minutes to reach the top of the mountain - and all the time the music built up until you crested the hill and saw the temple - the atmosphere it created was really immersive. The immersion breaker in that game was the loading screens between zones. The shard ships were okay but the pauses for loading made you go "yeah... might go get a coffee... oh! what's on TV?"
Fast Travel can be a breaker, but in LotRO they got it right when you mount a horse and ride off then you fade out... and fade in at your destination.
As an example of a real immersion breaker in bad plot - Pirates of the Burning Sea. Playing as a Naval Officer you would report to your commander... do a mission for him... then he would basicly say "See ya in 10 levels! kthxbye." and you would go off to do missions for the local Pirate boss.... yeah... not so immersive.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Originally posted by WW4BW Originally posted by Kuinn WoW is a great example game in this topic since it has lived a long life so far and a lot of changes happened in it. The simple truth is that WoW had tons of human interaction in it's original version, and these days it has basically none at all. That's why I have a problem with all these accesibility tools. I'm curious for the OP though, if you dont care about immersion at all and are there just for the gameplay alone, does it not matter at all an in the slightest what the setting or story is then? I dont understand (I'm not saying this in a negative way) how people can completely separate them from these worlds created for us and just focus on the mechanical side of the game, is it like in Matrix seeing the code pouring down before your eyes being able to ignore the rest of the world? Hehe
How can it not be a great example since it started without all these easy access tools and is now filled with those. You could only solo in vanilla WoW without interaction between players, now you can do everything in WoW without any sort of interaction between players.
The game is filled with "perk guilds" where hardly anyone says anything, back in the day everyone spoke in the guild chat, at least more than now. Also asked guild members to join dungeons etc, making friends that way, now you just "pop-in" to dungeons even when in guild, all you need the guild is for passive XP, gathering, and mount speed buffs.
Originally posted by Adamai Ok without boreing you. Immersion = realism in game. If it doesnt feel real from a mevhanics point of view then the emersion is gone. Thats practically what emersion is . People want to be part of the game world as if it were real.. Dungeon finders = not realistic.
Let me bring you in on a little secret:
MMORPGs = not realistic
Everything in a MMORPG is not realistic because they are games. We are simply willing to suspend our disbelief enough that we can immerse ourself in the unrealism of it. Realisticly most of the players in a fantasy MMORPG would be peasants who work their fields all day and never leave their village. It is unrealistic for the characters to all go adventuring and exploring dungeons and fighting dragons.
Originally posted by Sunshinee Maybe this is the same old thread, just written differently but I know a lot of you old timers on here love to talk how certain features in a game "break your immersion". I've in the past have been in beta's and lobbied for group finder tools if they weren't present, flying mounts, instant teleports to dungeons etc etc the tools that make the game possibly more accessible, and weren't wasting your time in general. Now I've been playing MMO's since pre cu swg. I played WoW before all the tools were available, and I embraced all the tools I've mentioned plus alot more that had come into existence in WoW and other mmo's. I guess where I question people is at the point where I hear the argument that these break "immersion". I get how these things can be Anti social, but let's be serious with every supposed anti social tool you guys think exist, in any real triple AAA mmo that falls on each individual itself as to whether they want to be social or not. People have a wide variety of experiences with those tools like LFG tools and found plenty of people to be social using them, and vice versa. So when I hear Immersion breaking as an argument I'm left confused. Are these individuals pretending that they are their own actual characters they see on screen and want to be "immersed" in this feeling of being in this great giant world fighting these evil beast as this mighty conquering hero? This is a serious question I've wondered, when I've gamed I don't do any of this imagining. Granted this whole thing might just be predicated on each indivuals playstyle.I'm mostly competitive and the type of person who likes to be on the top so I play a game to play a game. Not to feel like I myself am in this pretend virtual world. On top of that in a mmo, there is thousands of other supposed "heroes" running around killing the same mobs as you are. I just have a very hard time seeing it. Either way I'm curious to understand this side of the argument and or if I am possibly way off base and nobody does this? Either way, thoughts?
When a game is horrifically designed, in that the ONLY interaction & possible way you can find a group is thru an exo-system (that break immersion), is what people are talking about. The over-use of "tools" instead of better design. Or, the over reliance on "exo-tools"
Great for most arcade game, Battlefield, AoE, Labby games, etc.. but most games that rely heavily on such, are arcade and just not design to facilitate & harbor an actual population that mixes with each other, thus an actual hub of activity and ever-spurning-groups. It is when these "tools" are the designed way to group, instead of supplementing a natural atmosphere.
The think the premis of your argument is off. You have mislabeled yourself into believing you seek immersion.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Originally posted by Torik Realisticly most of the players in a fantasy MMORPG would be peasants who work their fields all day and never leave their village. It is unrealistic for the characters to all go adventuring and exploring dungeons and fighting dragons.
What's your point? That MMO worlds are unrealistic in certain ways (if they were completely unrealistic in every way, they wouldn't be interesting - btw, you ever notice all the parallels with realistic history you can make when observing the design of most current fantasy MMOs?) or that everyone who plays them would be peasants? It kinda seems like you are emphasizing the latter - which means you DON'T get the point of MMOs, at all.
MMOs are unrealistic in the very specific way that everyone CAN be an adventurer who may one day fight a dragon. Your little "realistic" observation is false no matter which way you look at it or which premise you take. That is why this type of game developed from the fantasy RPG genre. Fantasy literature is completely about studying the interactions of human beings in an environment filled with magic. Magic allows the dismissal of physical and energetical constants to the point that populations do not have to be agrarian to be "civilized."
In my favorite fantasy literature, the populations are hunter-gatherer anyway. The type that WOULD run into a woolly mammoth or two if not a dragon.
Originally posted by Kuinn Originally posted by WW4BW Originally posted by Kuinn
I almost agree with you. It's just that my perspective is a little different.
Like how you it actually made sense not to group up in WoW for most of the time.. That is what I meant, when i said I was already missing social interaction at launch.
It was not my intent to dump on your example. And it is actually quite accurate.. especially since the evolution is within the same game.
I only meant to point out that the difference was in shades.. where the complete evolution between games has much more contrast.
Originally posted by Torik Originally posted by Adamai Ok without boreing you. Immersion = realism in game. If it doesnt feel real from a mevhanics point of view then the emersion is gone. Thats practically what emersion is . People want to be part of the game world as if it were real.. Dungeon finders = not realistic.
Let me bring you in on a little secret
MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
keyword - Role Playing Game
Define Role Play
to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), especially in a make-believe situation inan effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction:
When people say realistic on a gaming forum. Don't take it so literally. People seem to forget for some reason that realism can exist within the parameters of the game.
Originally posted by Raithe-Nor Originally posted by Torik Realisticly most of the players in a fantasy MMORPG would be peasants who work their fields all day and never leave their village. It is unrealistic for the characters to all go adventuring and exploring dungeons and fighting dragons.
My perspective on this is somewhere in the middle of your views. I never like it when everyone is an epic hero in an MMO.. that is for single player games. This usually happens when they ham up the storyline quests and tell you that you are the only one who can save the realm.. But when everyone has the same EPIC STORY LINE.. then I just think big woop.. what a scam.
I like it when players can be crafters, harvesters, diplomats, or specialize as fighters or mages. I like it when its the players that create their own stories. And when the heroes spring up from the player base for being good leaders or particularly skilled fighters or crafters. Or where the mention of your name strike fear into the hearts of other players or bring curses to their lips.
Not some lame crap that has been cooked up by the devs.. That almost always fails to impress me.
BTW. Are those books the "Earth's Children" series by Jean M. Auel.. I have to say I grew bored by the drama in the 3rd book and when that was rehashed in every single book after that I nearly dropped it.. Finally did with the last one. The books grew thicker, but the story grew thinner. The first two books were great though.. and most of the third and fourth was too.
The "feeling of immersion" is used to convey the idea that the player consciously forgets that they are playing a game. Anything that brings the player out of that state, whether it's the need to find a group using a group finder or a particularly bad texture "breaks the immersion". This isn't the same as breaking a player's focus on a game. A player could step away from their PC or console to get a drink or go for a "bio", while still remaining focused on the game, even if their experience of immersion is put on hold for a few minutes. In this case, the player is choosing to leave the state, rather than have the state broken by an external stimuli. Since the player is choosing to leave the state of immersion, it is not considered 'bad'. There. I've explained it. Perhaps not well, and perhaps with too many words and perhaps too much of an attempt was made to sound intellectual, but it's explained. Things that break immersion are subjective though. Why does a group finder break immersion when typing in a chat window does not? What about opening an inventory where everything fits into little slots and you can carry a horse in your back pack? Why doesn't the ridiculous amount of storage and the way the storage is organized break the feeling of immersion for some people? I do not know, other than to say it is a subjective experience, and so it's going to be a little different for everyone.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Look it up in a dictionary. Don't come here to insult people who like to play a certain way.
And yes, people do want to imagine themselves as a character, fighting evil beasts and great dragons. They want to imagine living in a world, become a legend in their own right, traveling the seas, becoming a treasure hunter, a master smith, a fearless adventurer, or a cunning wizard. Some people actually still believe in the RP portion of MMORPG. Some people actually have a creative bone in their body and want to express themselves in whatever way they deem fit.
If you can't understand that, well, I'm not really surprised. This is why we have nothing but conveniece tools. Most people today aren't concerned about the beautiful scenery along the way, they are just interested in the biggest shiny at the end. Kind of like a cat. A stupid cat.
Yeah. I'm a hypacrit, couldn't help myself.
i dont roleplay in mmorpgs. However, i dont think immersion breaking only works for roleplayers. When the Lore of the game is strong and well done i like to immerse myself into my character through the story (not with groups of people) so in my particular case if something doesnt fit at all in the world it can break my immersion storywise (not the fun i have while playing). Another thing that greatly breaks my immersion is if i cannot see my character (first person), and if its poorly done in third person.
All these utilities like LFG and things like that in mmos dont break any immersion to me because i like to play mmos with good story and focus on the story and not in grinding dungeons or mobs. (Thats the only reason i sub to WoW every once in a while, because of the Warcraft Lore, not the gameplay though its very polished).
Originally posted by aleos Originally posted by Torik Originally posted by Adamai Ok without boreing you. Immersion = realism in game. If it doesnt feel real from a mevhanics point of view then the emersion is gone. Thats practically what emersion is . People want to be part of the game world as if it were real.. Dungeon finders = not realistic.
I fully understand that when people say "realistic" on this forum they actually mean "feature I like" and use "unrealistic" to describe features they do not like. I are perfectly fine with unreaslistic features if they fit in with their view how the game has to be played but as soon as another feature is suggested that they disagree with, it si "unrealistic" and "breaks immersion".