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Camelot Unchained: built on a foundation of dishonesty
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How is it getting cheap money? People that back now, obviously won't buy the game later. So atmost its about getting money upfront instead of later, still good but hardly dishonest.
Its more like a really early preorder. Without which the product won't be made.
OP is correct. Kickstarter was meant to be used by unknowns with great ideas as a vehicle to have those ideas become a reality. Now, Kickstarter is being used by major developers, movie studios, and other groups who already have access to the funding they need to develop their ideas and products, but choose to use Kickstarter to grab some free cash.
And why wouldn't they, when they can come up with very reasonable explanations such as, "I don't want to be handcuffed by the publisher", and we lap it up like mother's milk?
I would be more inclined to believe that statement if, by investing through Kickstarter, we received a return once the product began to make profits. Until that happens, this is just a guy abusing crowdfunding to receive a bigger return down the line once the game materializes.
Can you point to a single major publisher backed MMO created since WoW that has taken any sort of significant risk?
In the end, your argument is only effective in influencing the zealot, who are numerous.
But that doesn't mean they are stupid.
They may "believe" in CU but I'll bet most couldn't give a rat's arse about his motivations or beliefs. The only thing that will matter is being able to produce said game in a reasonable amout of time. the market will be it's judge then. Your post comes off as pretty weak as far as persuasion goes, if that was your intention. As a fan of Tabula Rasa, Champions Online and GW2, I know whatit's like to have to deal with seemingly troll post after troll post. It's not fun and it brings the tone of this website down. If any CU backers have ever at anytime done the same in the GW2 forums before launch, all I can say is: misery loves company.
Pro CU post are plentiful and annoying but mostly created in good faith. Your post? I'm not so sure.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
That is exactly why he can get the money, because he isnt counting on 500k people. he is shooting for 50k, which is extremely realistc. 50k x 12ish per month + minor cash shop for a game planning on a small team with a devoted following is a *signficantly* safer investment than a game that needs 250k+.
He is only asking for a couple million which is not a large number.
You can't pick up publishers like empty beer bottles. Actually i think you can't get a publisher period. A publisher can get you. Kinda like EA got mythic and bioware. Worked out well right?
Another difference is that you can take your vision to kickstarter and get it funded without change. If you take it to a publisher, even if he agrees to fund it he will start to nitpick and tell you to change this or that so that you can maximise potential interest.
Besides that i think its very hard to find a publisher for things that are intended for a niche. Not if you could target mainstream instead with only a couple concept changes(like adding PvE and raids and stuff). But that might compromise your entire vision.
The fact you titled this as, "Camelot Unchained: built on a foundation of dishonesty," and then wrote what you wrote, shows me that your way of drawing readers to your thread was pretty sensationalized. You might have wanted to title your thread with a less edgy (or demeaning) title.
KS is hardly 'free money'. None of the gaming projects are 100% funded by KS, the Devs are still putting up the majority of the funding themselves.
I give you props dude,you worded it well,better than i could,i am not a English major and i have been out of school a very long time.
I do know that what i see is a SELL JOB,but then again,i saw right through NCSOFT and their GW2 sell job.
This doesn't mean players won't like these dishonest sell jobs,but it is a form of dishonesty none the less.
I watched that 500 warrior video and just shook my head at what he was trying to portray,talking about 11k triangle models and trying to tell us they were all different,i was like who are you trying to kid?There was ONLY one sword swing animation and only a few of the warriors woudl use it.All they basically were doing is walking past each other.Once you add in objects,animations,various weapons,lighting,shadows,effects ect ect,there is no way he pulls off that video.It was simply a VERY misleading video.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The sum is not the point.
Do you really think EA or whoever is in the business of funding small, risky projects that they would have zero control over and the lead desiner is saying will not see much of a return?
I really think you should take business 101 before you start claiming to know more than MJ does about financing MMOs.
As someone already pointed out, geting backing for a game which is going to be a niche game might be tougher than you think. Rift wasn't too far from your typical WoW type game so it had a decent chance of attracting a solid audience. DAoC was also enough like EQ or AC with the addition of RvR to be a reasonable bet. EVE bought back the publishing rights before the game launched and I can't honestly say how that was funded, so I'll refrain from commenting on that.
CU, on the other hand, sounds like it might be a tough sell to potential "big money" investors. No PVE for a start so you immediatley alienate the majority of MMO players. MJ has made no excuses about the game design and admits openly that it will scare a lot of people away. Would you invest in that if he wanted 5 million from you?
And it doesn't matter who he goes to for the money because all these companies will be saying the same kinds of things. They're going to want their investment returned, they're going to want profits, and they're going to want them now. This is where your big investor starts saying "Well, Mark, we'll give you the money but we think you'll get a bigger audience if you include this, or do that. So if you'll agree to include these features you've got a deal" and that's exactly what CSE don't want. When you look at it that way it makes perfect sense for them to avoid the big investors.
Yes, it's motivated by money, no question about it. But that doesn't mean it's not about retaining control over the game design as well.
And in these days of digital downloads you certainly no longer need a publisher to get your game out there, provided you can fund the thing.
The OP is kinda right, I mean the game likely will have some outside investement other than KS but KS does allow MJ and his company to self-publish and if this game is as popular in its niche as EVE is... well then you can do the math (hint: more money goes into certain bank accounts than they normally would if they didn't self-publish).
Anyone that claims MJ is doing it solely for the gamers... well dumb question then: Why won't CU be a F2P game supported by discrete in-game ads and nothing else? Anarchy Online did that for a fair while with no issue and it had (back then) a similar pop to what MJ claims to expect CU to have.
1. Did the community talk daily with ArenaNet during the developpment of the game? Or even before? Is CU being published by a bi publisher like NCSOFT? No, so yes, we know exactly what MJ plans or does.
2. KS certainly wasn't the only way to do this, but the only way to it without having a big investor interfering in the creation process.
How do you define risk?
No game took a bigger risk than SWTOR financially. Needing 500k+ subs to stay afloat is substantially riskier than shooting for 50k (and probably needing less).
GW2 went to a B2P model (on a costly game) and sold the game on removing progression. is that not risky?
How about Defiance, a market that is uncertain to exist (will people play Defiance when they can play a traditional MMORPG or a game like Borderlands 2) and tieing it in to a TV show on a channel best known for Megashark vs Gigadinosaur vs. Humongopiranha type movies.
Major publishers typically dont often deal with small budget games so expecting a major publisher backed game to shoot for a niche audience is silly.
Are you serious? Ads?
Yeah, gamers really want to see Ford ads on the side of their keeps in a fantasy MMO.
Aso, this is a niche game - advertisers do not pay big bucks to market to small numbers of people.
FTP? You mean P2W? That model is garbage for pvp oriented MMOs.
Really hard not to lol at that sentence. Cause EA and NCSOFT are really known for being the philanthropists of the industry.
This question has been answered by MJ himself. He sees F2P resulting in a rapid turnover of casual players that won't stick around to support the game. F2P games are funded by a small percentage of the total population and he knows this game will be niche. That small percentage of a small player base won't be enough to keep the game running. He's not expecting more than a couple of hundred K players, at best.
Therefore the game will be subscription based.
All 3 of those games are rail-based PVE themeparks with bad 0 risk pvp. None of them took any risk in terms of gameplay mechanics.
Maybe the non-trinity classes in GW2 could qualify as a risky move, but in a lot of ways it dumbed down the game even more because every class is interchangable.
Obviously major publisers chasing the big money will not make niche games. That is my nobody will fund CU, and why your OP makes zero sense.
1. He is in fundraising mode. I suspect he will still communicate afterwards, but nobody knows for sure. The point still stands, there is no way of knowing if what he is saying he will make ends up a game you want to play until you actually play it.
2. Who were the big inbvestors interfering with EvE? DAoC? Comparing a 5 million game to 50+ million dollar games is silly, compare it to the other small budget games.
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It's actually pretty interesting to see opinions about Kickstarter and why people think some developer puts his game on KS.
Personaly I see it as a measurement to see if the gaming community is truly interested.
If after one year CU has more then 50k subscribers I think MJ would be happy, it will never retain the numbers you are touting.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
If you think KS for CU is dishonest then dont fund it and move on with your life.
Its not your job to manage other people's money.
I am not a backer, but I find the OP to be kind of conspiracy theory like, if MJ barrows a good chunk of money, like the 3 of the 5 million without kickstarter that he would of needed to do, then he would of only had 40% of the money into it, and the investors would of had 60%, making him a minority partner.
You could of argued that e then could of put 2.5 million in (to be 50/50 in that scenario), but none of us really know his finances, maybe he has .5 million to throw in, but he is keeping it as a safeguard for overruns, to make sure he can release the mmo.
People that donate get a copy of the game for the most part, and other things, if you cannot bare to lose this money, as if the game doesn't actually release, it sucks, or whatever, you should not give the money, but that is up to the individual to determine, not a 'well wisher' on a mmo forum to determine.
I have things keeping me from giving money, but I want to see the game made, if anything, because a lot of people seem passionate about it and really want it. I loved DAoC, till they kept doing huge nerfs/changes, and got sick of it, but it is still a top 5 mmo imo, due to its RvR innovations.
Yet Darkfall get funded. MO got funded. These games are more niche (in my opinion) than CU because CU doesnt have the hardcore vibe to it the other games do.