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Camelot Unchained: built on a foundation of dishonesty

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Comments

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member

    How is it getting cheap money? People that back now, obviously won't buy the game later. So atmost its about getting money upfront instead of later, still good but hardly dishonest.

    Its more like a really early preorder. Without which the product won't be made.

     

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member

    OP is correct. Kickstarter was meant to be used by unknowns with great ideas as a vehicle to have those ideas become a reality. Now, Kickstarter is being used by major developers, movie studios, and other groups who already have access to the funding they need to develop their ideas and products, but choose to use Kickstarter to grab some free cash.

    And why wouldn't they, when they can come up with very reasonable explanations such as, "I don't want to be handcuffed by the publisher", and we lap it up like mother's milk?

    I would be more inclined to believe that statement if, by investing through Kickstarter, we received a return once the product began to make profits. Until that happens, this is just a guy abusing crowdfunding to receive a bigger return down the line once the game materializes.

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon

    Can you point to a single major publisher backed MMO created since WoW that has taken any sort of significant risk?

  • LeetheLeethe WarringtonPosts: 889Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    Let me first say this:  I fully expect CU to release.  I don't think there is much chance at all for people who pledge to kickstarter not getting a product.  I doubt it will be 2.5 years, but it also wont be more than 4 or 5.  Jacobs will get the product out there and will not 'run away with the money'.  

    But man, Jacobs is playing many, many people for suckers.

     

    I see post after post about how this kickstarter is so great because it avoids the big publishers and will free CSE to do exactly what they want.  And Jacobs is playing this up big time.

    The key thing is this:  Jacobs could completely avoid the big publishers or sources that will control his game, and still raise the money without kickstarter.  But why do that when he can get cheap capital.

    This kickstarter isnt a poltical move.  Its an economic move.  And the fact he is selling it as a political move is where the dishonesty comes in.  Lets face it, selling the kickstarter on the reality platform of "Hey, back my kickstarter because it will allow me a greater share of the revenues/profits" isnt going to inspire 1 million+ of donations.  He is doing what he has to to get as much cheap money as possible.  

    Its a smart business strategy.  But this is the same sort of thing that those 'big evil corporations' do and get vilified for it. And there is no gaurantee at all he wont pull a Mythic and sell out to a big publisher anyway.  I highly doubt he plans too, but game designers tend to get bored and want to move on so 2-3 years post release its awfully tempting to get a nice paycheck and move on to your next project.

     

    So if you are worried about your money being safe, don't.  This is one of the safest kickstarters out there.

    But don't think its some big political move that it isn't, and stop trying to push it off on to others as one.

    In the end, your argument is only effective in influencing the zealot, who are numerous. 

    But that doesn't mean they are stupid.

    They may "believe" in CU but I'll bet most couldn't give a rat's arse about his motivations or beliefs. The only thing that will matter is being able to produce said game in a reasonable amout of time. the market will be it's judge then. Your post comes off as pretty weak as far as persuasion goes, if that was your intention. As a fan of Tabula Rasa, Champions Online and GW2, I know whatit's like to have to deal with seemingly troll post after troll post. It's not fun and it brings the tone of this website down. If any CU backers have ever at anytime done the same in the GW2 forums before launch, all I can say is: misery loves company.

    Pro CU post are plentiful and annoying but mostly created in good faith. Your post? I'm not so sure.

    There is NO miracle patch.

    95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.

    Hope is not a stategy.
    ______________________________
    "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Nihilist
     

    Who is going to give millions of dollars to MJ for a game that isn't even expected to have more that 100k subs and make much money?

    Sorry but you are just posting a bunch of inflamatory garbage to fill your desperate need for attention.

    That is exactly why he can get the money, because he isnt counting on 500k people.  he is shooting for 50k, which is extremely realistc.  50k x 12ish per month + minor cash shop for a game planning on a small team with a devoted following is a *signficantly* safer investment than a game that needs 250k+.  

    He is only asking for a couple million which is not a large number.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Slampig
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    Let me first say this:  I fully expect CU to release.  I don't think there is much chance at all for people who pledge to kickstarter not getting a product.  I doubt it will be 2.5 years, but it also wont be more than 4 or 5.  Jacobs will get the product out there and will not 'run away with the money'.  

    But man, Jacobs is playing many, many people for suckers.

     

    I see post after post about how this kickstarter is so great because it avoids the big publishers and will free CSE to do exactly what they want.  And Jacobs is playing this up big time.

    The key thing is this:  Jacobs could completely avoid the big publishers or sources that will control his game, and still raise the money without kickstarter.  But why do that when he can get cheap capital.

    This kickstarter isnt a poltical move.  Its an economic move.  And the fact he is selling it as a political move is where the dishonesty comes in.  Lets face it, selling the kickstarter on the reality platform of "Hey, back my kickstarter because it will allow me a greater share of the revenues/profits" isnt going to inspire 1 million+ of donations.  He is doing what he has to to get as much cheap money as possible.  

    Its a smart business strategy.  But this is the same sort of thing that those 'big evil corporations' do and get vilified for it. And there is no gaurantee at all he wont pull a Mythic and sell out to a big publisher anyway.  I highly doubt he plans too, but game designers tend to get bored and want to move on so 2-3 years post release its awfully tempting to get a nice paycheck and move on to your next project.

     

    So if you are worried about your money being safe, don't.  This is one of the safest kickstarters out there.

    But don't think its some big political move that it isn't, and stop trying to push it off on to others as one.

    *Sigh*

     

    Ok, I would like you to tell me how doing this Kickstarter in any way differs from getting a publisher aside from the fact that the people donating are not a company.

    You can't pick up publishers like empty beer bottles. Actually i think you can't get a publisher period. A publisher can get you. Kinda like EA got mythic and bioware. Worked out well right?

    Another difference is that you can take your vision to kickstarter and get it funded without change. If you take it to a publisher, even if he agrees to fund it he will start to nitpick and tell you to change this or that so that you can maximise potential interest.

     

    Besides that i think its very hard to find a publisher for things that are intended for a niche. Not if you could target mainstream instead with only a couple concept changes(like adding PvE and raids and stuff). But that might compromise your entire vision.

  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    Let me first say this:  I fully expect CU to release.  I don't think there is much chance at all for people who pledge to kickstarter not getting a product.  I doubt it will be 2.5 years, but it also wont be more than 4 or 5.  Jacobs will get the product out there and will not 'run away with the money'.  

    But man, Jacobs is playing many, many people for suckers.

     

    I see post after post about how this kickstarter is so great because it avoids the big publishers and will free CSE to do exactly what they want.  And Jacobs is playing this up big time.

    The key thing is this:  Jacobs could completely avoid the big publishers or sources that will control his game, and still raise the money without kickstarter.  But why do that when he can get cheap capital.

    This kickstarter isnt a poltical move.  Its an economic move.  And the fact he is selling it as a political move is where the dishonesty comes in.  Lets face it, selling the kickstarter on the reality platform of "Hey, back my kickstarter because it will allow me a greater share of the revenues/profits" isnt going to inspire 1 million+ of donations.  He is doing what he has to to get as much cheap money as possible.  

    Its a smart business strategy.  But this is the same sort of thing that those 'big evil corporations' do and get vilified for it. And there is no gaurantee at all he wont pull a Mythic and sell out to a big publisher anyway.  I highly doubt he plans too, but game designers tend to get bored and want to move on so 2-3 years post release its awfully tempting to get a nice paycheck and move on to your next project.

     

    So if you are worried about your money being safe, don't.  This is one of the safest kickstarters out there.

    But don't think its some big political move that it isn't, and stop trying to push it off on to others as one.

    The fact you titled this as, "Camelot Unchained: built on a foundation of dishonesty," and then wrote what you wrote, shows me that your way of drawing readers to your thread was pretty sensationalized.  You might have wanted to title your thread with a less edgy (or demeaning) title. 

     

     

    image
  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rygard49

    OP is correct. Kickstarter was meant to be used by unknowns with great ideas as a vehicle to have those ideas become a reality. Now, Kickstarter is being used by major developers, movie studios, and other groups who already have access to the funding they need to develop their ideas and products, but choose to use Kickstarter to grab some free cash.

    And why wouldn't they, when they can come up with very reasonable explanations such as, "I don't want to be handcuffed by the publisher", and we lap it up like mother's milk?

    I would be more inclined to believe that statement if, by investing through Kickstarter, we received a return once the product began to make profits. Until that happens, this is just a guy abusing crowdfunding to receive a bigger return down the line once the game materializes.

     

    KS is hardly 'free money'. None of the gaming projects are 100% funded by KS, the Devs are still putting up the majority of the funding themselves.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,423Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Leiloni

    Are you saying he's bad because he doesn't want to spend a ton of his own money on a game that may or may not get released and, in today's market, may or may not even be financially successful? You're admonishing him because he's trying to make smart decisions that will help him put out a successful fun game for his fans? I'm sorry, but you're crazy.

    No, that isnt what i said at all.  read more carefully.

    And he isnt doing it for the fans.

    I give you props dude,you worded it well,better than i could,i am not a English major and i have been out of school a very long time.

    I do know that what i see is a SELL JOB,but then again,i saw right through NCSOFT and their GW2 sell job.

    This doesn't mean players won't like these dishonest sell jobs,but it is a form of dishonesty none the less.

    I watched that 500 warrior video and just shook my head at what he was trying to portray,talking about 11k triangle models and trying to tell us they were all different,i was like who are you trying to kid?There was ONLY one sword swing animation and only    a few of the warriors woudl use it.All they basically were doing is walking past each other.Once you add in objects,animations,various weapons,lighting,shadows,effects ect ect,there is no way he pulls off that video.It was simply a VERY misleading video.


    Samoan Diamond

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Let me first say this:  I fully expect CU to release.  I don't think there is much chance at all for people who pledge to kickstarter not getting a product.  I doubt it will be 2.5 years, but it also wont be more than 4 or 5.  Jacobs will get the product out there and will not 'run away with the money'.  But man, Jacobs is playing many, many people for suckers. I see post after post about how this kickstarter is so great because it avoids the big publishers and will free CSE to do exactly what they want.  And Jacobs is playing this up big time.The key thing is this:  Jacobs could completely avoid the big publishers or sources that will control his game, and still raise the money without kickstarter.  But why do that when he can get cheap capital.This kickstarter isnt a poltical move.  Its an economic move.  And the fact he is selling it as a political move is where the dishonesty comes in.  Lets face it, selling the kickstarter on the reality platform of "Hey, back my kickstarter because it will allow me a greater share of the revenues/profits" isnt going to inspire 1 million+ of donations.  He is doing what he has to to get as much cheap money as possible.  Its a smart business strategy.  But this is the same sort of thing that those 'big evil corporations' do and get vilified for it. And there is no gaurantee at all he wont pull a Mythic and sell out to a big publisher anyway.  I highly doubt he plans too, but game designers tend to get bored and want to move on so 2-3 years post release its awfully tempting to get a nice paycheck and move on to your next project. So if you are worried about your money being safe, don't.  This is one of the safest kickstarters out there.But don't think its some big political move that it isn't, and stop trying to push it off on to others as one.

    It's a strange dichotomy. If a guy walked up to me on the street and asked for 2 mill I would assume he was drunk, insane, or about to rob me. If MJ walked up to me on the street and asked for 2 mill I would have a sit down with him and talk about truly being a partner in his game. If MJ asked me on kickstarter I would normally wait and see if it funds, if it will be good, try to get into beta, and hope it's a great MMO. But, due to desperation and lack of a respectable MMO I dove into the kickstarter, because this ride is way to fun not to be on it.

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    That is exactly why he can get the money, because he isnt counting on 500k people.  he is shooting for 50k, which is extremely realistc.  50k x 12ish per month + minor cash shop for a game planning on a small team with a devoted following is a *signficantly* safer investment than a game that needs 250k+.  

    He is only asking for a couple million which is not a large number.

     

    The sum is not the point.

    Do you really think EA or whoever is in the business of funding small, risky projects that they would have zero control over and the lead desiner is saying will not see much of a return?

    I really think you should take business 101 before you start claiming to know more than MJ does about financing MMOs.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,476Member Uncommon
    So does this mean the OP isn't supporting Kickstarter or isn't supporting MJ / Camelot Unchained?

    image

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
    Faced with the prospect of CSE being funded by EA, or Activision, or SOE, or NCSoft or Kickstarter, I prefer Kickstarter. Why? If I need to explain why then you obviously have a cabbage in your skull and not a brain.

    What about it being funded by private investers like Rift?  Or...DAoC?  Or EvE?  

    And no matter how you get your money, you still need a publisher anyway.  If the plan is to slef publish, then you wouldnt be looking for money from EA anyway.

    As someone already pointed out, geting backing for a game which is going to be a niche game might be tougher than you think. Rift wasn't too far from your typical WoW type game so it had a decent chance of attracting a solid audience. DAoC was also enough like EQ or AC with the addition of RvR to be a reasonable bet. EVE bought back the publishing rights before the game launched and I can't honestly say how that was funded, so I'll refrain from commenting on that.

     

    CU, on the other hand, sounds like it might be a tough sell to potential "big money" investors. No PVE for a start so you immediatley alienate the majority of MMO players. MJ has made no excuses about the game design and admits openly that it will scare a lot of people away. Would you invest in that if he wanted 5 million from you?

     

    And it doesn't matter who he goes to for the money because all these companies will be saying the same kinds of things. They're going to want their investment returned, they're going to want profits, and they're going to want them now. This is where your big investor starts saying "Well, Mark, we'll give you the money but we think you'll get a bigger audience if you include this, or do that. So if you'll agree to include these features you've got a deal" and that's exactly what CSE don't want. When you look at it that way it makes perfect sense for them to avoid the big investors.

     

    Yes, it's motivated by money, no question about it. But that doesn't mean it's not about retaining control over the game design as well.

     

    And in these days of digital downloads you certainly no longer need a publisher to get your game out there, provided you can fund the thing.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member

    The OP is kinda right, I mean the game likely will have some outside investement other than KS but KS does allow MJ and his company to self-publish and if this game is as popular in its niche as EVE is... well then you can do the math (hint: more money goes into certain bank accounts than they normally would if they didn't self-publish).

     

    Anyone that claims MJ is doing it solely for the gamers... well dumb question then: Why won't CU be a F2P game supported by discrete in-game ads and nothing else? Anarchy Online did that for a fair while with no issue and it had (back then) a similar pop to what MJ claims to expect CU to have.

    image
  • EzzekhielEzzekhiel ParisPosts: 2Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    1.  You have no way of knowing it is the game you want until its released.  GW2 looked perfect to many on paper.  And it did end up being the game some of them wanted.  But others came away disappointed.  There is no way of knowing if this game will be what you want/expect.

    2.  that wouldnt be made otherwise...bullshit.  If you believe kickstarter was this games only chance to be made I have a bridge to sell you in brooklyn Ill give you a good deal on

    1. Did the community talk daily with ArenaNet during the developpment of the game? Or even before? Is CU being published by a bi publisher like NCSOFT? No, so yes, we know exactly what MJ plans or does.

    2. KS certainly wasn't the only way to do this, but the only way to it without having a big investor interfering in the creation process.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Nihilist

    Can you point to a single major publisher backed MMO created since WoW that has taken any sort of significant risk?

    How do you define risk?

    No game took a bigger risk than SWTOR financially.  Needing 500k+ subs to stay afloat is substantially riskier than shooting for 50k (and probably needing less).

    GW2 went to a B2P model (on a costly game) and sold the game on removing progression.  is that not risky?

    How about Defiance, a market that is uncertain to exist (will people play Defiance when they can play a traditional MMORPG or a game like Borderlands 2) and tieing it in to a TV show on a channel best known for Megashark vs Gigadinosaur vs. Humongopiranha type movies.

    Major publishers typically dont often deal with small budget games so expecting a major publisher backed game to shoot for a niche audience is silly.

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    The OP is kinda right, I mean the game likely will have some outside investement other than KS but KS does allow MJ and his company to self-publish and if this game is as popular in its niche as EVE is... well then you can do the math (hint: more money goes into certain bank accounts than they normally would if they didn't self-publish).

     

    Anyone that claims MJ is doing it solely for the gamers... well dumb question then: Why won't CU be a F2P game supported by discrete in-game ads and nothing else? Anarchy Online did that for a fair while with no issue and it had (back then) a similar pop to what MJ claims to expect CU to have.

     

    Are you serious? Ads?

    Yeah, gamers really want to see Ford ads on the side of their keeps in a fantasy MMO.

    Aso, this is a niche game - advertisers do not pay big bucks to market to small numbers of people.

    FTP? You mean P2W? That model is garbage for pvp oriented MMOs.

  • EzzekhielEzzekhiel ParisPosts: 2Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    well then you can do the math (hint: more money goes into certain bank accounts than they normally would if they didn't self-publish).

    Really hard not to lol at that sentence. Cause EA and NCSOFT are really known for being the philanthropists of the industry.

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    The OP is kinda right, I mean the game likely will have some outside investement other than KS but KS does allow MJ and his company to self-publish and if this game is as popular in its niche as EVE is... well then you can do the math (hint: more money goes into certain bank accounts than they normally would if they didn't self-publish).

     

    Anyone that claims MJ is doing it solely for the gamers... well dumb question then: Why won't CU be a F2P game supported by discrete in-game ads and nothing else? Anarchy Online did that for a fair while with no issue and it had (back then) a similar pop to what MJ claims to expect CU to have.

    This question has been answered by MJ himself. He sees F2P resulting in a rapid turnover of casual players that won't stick around to support the game. F2P games are funded by a small percentage of the total population and he knows this game will be niche. That small percentage of a small player base won't be enough to keep the game running. He's not expecting more than a couple of hundred K players, at best.

    Therefore the game will be subscription based.

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon
    How do you define risk?

    No game took a bigger risk than SWTOR financially.  Needing 500k+ subs to stay afloat is substantially riskier than shooting for 50k (and probably needing less).

    GW2 went to a B2P model (on a costly game) and sold the game on removing progression.  is that not risky?

    How about Defiance, a market that is uncertain to exist (will people play Defiance when they can play a traditional MMORPG or a game like Borderlands 2) and tieing it in to a TV show on a channel best known for Megashark vs Gigadinosaur vs. Humongopiranha type movies.

    Major publishers typically dont often deal with small budget games so expecting a major publisher backed game to shoot for a niche audience is silly.

    All 3 of those games are rail-based PVE themeparks with bad 0 risk pvp. None of them took any risk in terms of gameplay mechanics.

    Maybe the non-trinity classes in GW2 could qualify as a risky move, but in a lot of ways it dumbed down the game even more because every class is interchangable.

    Obviously major publisers chasing the big money will not make niche games. That is my nobody will fund CU, and why your OP makes zero sense.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Ezzekhiel
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    1.  You have no way of knowing it is the game you want until its released.  GW2 looked perfect to many on paper.  And it did end up being the game some of them wanted.  But others came away disappointed.  There is no way of knowing if this game will be what you want/expect.

    2.  that wouldnt be made otherwise...bullshit.  If you believe kickstarter was this games only chance to be made I have a bridge to sell you in brooklyn Ill give you a good deal on

    1. Did the community talk daily with ArenaNet during the developpment of the game? Or even before? Is CU being published by a bi publisher like NCSOFT? No, so yes, we know exactly what MJ plans or does.

    2. KS certainly wasn't the only way to do this, but the only way to it without having a big investor interfering in the creation process.

    1.  He is in fundraising mode.  I suspect he will still communicate afterwards, but nobody knows for sure.  The point still stands, there is no way of knowing if what he is saying he will make ends up a game you want to play until you actually play it.

    2. Who were the big inbvestors interfering with EvE?  DAoC?  Comparing a 5 million game to 50+ million dollar games is silly, compare it to the other small budget games.

  • EaderbrecaEaderbreca MMORPG.com Streamer LPosts: 44Member
    You're surprised KS is an enonomical move? Uuh. Okay?

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  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,474Member Uncommon

    It's actually pretty interesting to see opinions about Kickstarter and why people think some developer puts his game on KS.

    Personaly I see it  as a measurement  to see if the gaming community is truly interested.

     

  • ZinzanZinzan NorthPosts: 1,351Member
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    The OP is kinda right, I mean the game likely will have some outside investement other than KS but KS does allow MJ and his company to self-publish and if this game is as popular in its niche as EVE is... well then you can do the math (hint: more money goes into certain bank accounts than they normally would if they didn't self-publish).

     

    Anyone that claims MJ is doing it solely for the gamers... well dumb question then: Why won't CU be a F2P game supported by discrete in-game ads and nothing else? Anarchy Online did that for a fair while with no issue and it had (back then) a similar pop to what MJ claims to expect CU to have.

    This question has been answered by MJ himself. He sees F2P resulting in a rapid turnover of casual players that won't stick around to support the game. F2P games are funded by a small percentage of the total population and he knows this game will be niche. That small percentage of a small player base won't be enough to keep the game running. He's not expecting more than a couple of hundred K players, at best.

    Therefore the game will be subscription based.

    If after one year CU has more then 50k subscribers I think MJ would be happy, it will never retain the numbers you are touting.

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon

    If you think KS for CU is dishonest then dont fund it and move on with your life.

    Its not your job to manage other people's money.

This discussion has been closed.