I don't "despise" PVP just because MMORPG PVP sucks by design. I play MMORPGs for PVE and PVP games for PVP.
Basically this for me. I spent most of my time doing PvE content and maybe 2-3% PvPing. Mostly because I tend to play tank classes who tend to fair terribly in PvP in favor of ranged classes. Which is fine with me. I'd rather have classes that are full of flavor and aren't balanced for PvP than to have everyone able to do a bit of everything for the sake of "balance" which ShakyMo pointed out truthfully is a lie.
The moments I've PvP'd have rarely been memorable as well. Usually just being destroyed by a group of people that come along, either during a 1 on 1 to clean up or just adventuring and being destroyed.
The one, most fun and memorable instance of it was a fight I had along side a few of my guildies with a member of a rival guild at the time. Yes, guilds that participate in mostly PvE can have rivals, shocking to some I'm sure. It was a single, uber geared Monk in EQ that had an absolute shit ton of clickable items to help him out. I specifically remember a blind...damn that was annoying. Anyways, he battled it out with probably 3 or 4 of us and really took it to us. We brought in a ringer cleric that sat out of the arena so she couldn't be touched and basically kept us at a stand still for an hour and a half (him bringing in his box cleric not long after we brought ours.) Finally, after about an hour and a half we took him down. Us 1, him probably about 15 kills but it felt pretty good. After that, me and him were good with each other, grouped up a few times actually to exp and joined his guild a few months later to tank as they rebuilt a bit. Truking, if you're out there, dammit you were a tough SOB to take down!
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
Funny how the pure pvp gamers are such a small percent, yet they have way more mmo's released that are focused strictly on their play style. Pvp only mmo's abound, but how many quality pve only games do you get? seems every big Pve title has to cater somewhat to the pvp crowd.
Goes to show you how loud that small percent is doesnt it?
You do realize that EVERY single MMO, PvE or PvP has crafting in it? I guess crafting is the single biggest crowd in the genre!
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Both if done right. I like how Conquor Online pvp system works for example you can pve and pvp with no problem although it's a f2p asian grinder p2w game that I wouldn't even touch.
Originally posted by fayknaym I always like to play all the aspects of a game. I wonder if people who hate pvp also hate playing board games like monopoly or chess against other people, since they technically are pvp.
But they don't typically bring out the douchebags. I've seen it happen in MMOs all the time. If you lose the encounter, you can be sure that the one who won is going to be a douchebag to you, calling you a loser, bragging to his friends, etc. If you win, you can be sure that the one who lost is going to call you a cheater, try to get their friends to gank you, etc. These are not things that you have to worry about with NPCs because they don't have egos. They don't get upset. They don't badmouth you. They don't seek revenge. They don't follow you around for hours ganking you over and over.
PvP brings out the inner dick in people. No thanks.
Dungeon/raid finder brings out the inner dick in people as well, you have people kicking others at random, leaving the group when they got their item, badmouthing people if they die, scream at the healer if they die regardless if its their own fault or not.
You don't need to PvP to be an asshole.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
One need only look at the numerous "remove all pvp" threads you see during every games beta.
Now now, common sense isn't allowed around here. The same goes for facts.
IMO, there are both and combinations of them.
I think the reason you see that is that most MMOs have PvP as a kind of "stick on". The game is designed to be a PvE experience and then late in the development someone decides, "We've got to give the people something to do between PvE expansions, so we'll stick in battlegrounds." For PvP to be good in a game the game must be designed for PvP from the ground up. It can't be a developmental "add on" to appeal to gamers who like to PvP. I would rather have no PvP than afterthough, tack on PvP.
I'll repeat what I said in another thread. I think for PvE and PvP to survive in the same game you have to isolate them from each other as much as possible. The more they impact on one another the more the balance tips in favor of the most efficient game players, meaning the people who figure out how to get the most benefit for time spent in game or who just have more time to spend in game.
To me the thing that made it work in DAoC was the separation. RvR was entirely voluntary and if you didn't want to RvR all you did was stay in your realm and PvE. Eventually your toon would plateau in PvE. You hit a "gear limit" and a level cap where, pretty much no matter how much you PvE ed after that your toon wasn't going to gain any more power. By the same token, if you wanted your toon to get more powerful in RvR, you had to RvR and get realm ranks and realm points to by realm abilities. Everyone had access to pretty much the same thing in PvE and RvR.
It all made sense to me. If I didn't want to get ganked by high level enemies, I stayed in my realm. I could get to level cap and get geared up without interference, so I could eliminate the advantages of my enemy having more PvE time by simply refusing to engage until I caught up. Then when I decided to go out on the frontier I did so knowing that the only advantages my enemy held on me were 1) any realm rank advantage he had for being on the frontier more than me and 2) his skill at playing his toon.
Where it broke down was the introduction of Trials of Atlantis where if you spent more time PvEing with your level 50 that toon got exponentially stronger in not only PvE, but in RvR as well. Suddenly the toon everyone had been using in RvR sucessfully for over a year was bashed into a grease spot by a toon that had never seen the frontier before, but was wearing six artifacts and had all ten master levels done (things one did not have to PvP at all to get). Suddenly PvE rewards had more impact on getting RvR rewards than either 1) skill or 2) time spent in RvR.
In my mind for it to work you almost have to design the PvE and PvP aspects of the game separately and keep them as separated as possible. That prevents low levels from being ganked by high levels (unless the low levels voluntarily expose themselves to it) and it prevents the power creep in PvP that adding more PvE content to the game necessarily involves.
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I don't hate pvp I just hate it in pve focused mmos. I love games like world of tanks ( I have 12k battles + 4k from beta :P ) or LoL or even shooters when I'm in the mood. MMO pvp is just lame grinds and 95% of the time it's gear vrs gear not player vrs player.
I'm always happy to see an mmo have no pvp. It means no lame nerfs because devs can't make a skill work in both pvp and pve. If an mmo does have pvp I ignore it.
Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by lizardbones I think it's entirely possible that there are people who have no interest at all in PvP or PvE in MMOs, but I feel pretty certain that there are far fewer of those people than people who want both. I'm also going to guess that there are fewer pure PvP people than PvE people on these forums and in the world, but that's just a gut feeling. I don't really have much to back it up.
Given all the free MMOs out there, why not just play a pure pve and a pure pvp if you want both? Having a totally PvE focused game is better for PvE than one that is constantly getting "balanced for PvP" and has half its budget wasted on stuff that doesn't add to PvE and the same for a pure PvP MMO. Shoving it all in one game is just as dumb as putting a MOBA, an SPRPG, and a Diablo clone all in one game.
Can't speak for anyone else, but my experience with free games is that most of them are cr@p.
There's no reason a developer can't have a vision for a game, where the PvE and PvP elements support that central vision. I'm not sure that's what most developers do, but there's no reason it can't be done. I think a big problem is that "balance" word there.
Not just balancing things for PvE or PvP, but trying to balance the PvP elements of the game with the PvE elements of the game so that one or the other isn't too important. I think TSW has the right idea. Focus on what you're good at (PvE), and work on the other (PvP), but don't let it run the game. If that means a game is 95% PvE and 5% PvP, then so be it. It's better to make a better game than to make a game with a perfect 50/50 split between those two types of game play. Trying to get that 50/50 split is how game mechanics just get thrown into a game seemingly at random.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm just tired of balance decisions in my PvE MMO being made to placate the super-whiny PvP crowd. Hell, several classes in WoW were completely screwed over bigtime because of those godawful arenas. Agents / smugglers in SWTOR were nerfed into uselessness because of PvPers whining.
I wish developers would, in games which involve both PvE and PvP, learn to divide class skills / abilities into PvP and PvE versions. That way one could be adjusted without completely screwing over the other. Of course this requires both extra work and foresight on their part, which isn't likely to happen any time soon.
Given all the free MMOs out there, why not just play a pure pve and a pure pvp if you want both? Having a totally PvE focused game is better for PvE than one that is constantly getting "balanced for PvP" and has half its budget wasted on stuff that doesn't add to PvE and the same for a pure PvP MMO. Shoving it all in one game is just as dumb as putting a MOBA, an SPRPG, and a Diablo clone all in one game.
Because there is no PvP-less games. Just because a game has PvE (player vs. environment) gameplay, does not mean the players can't use the player vs. environment game for player vs. player comparisons. The myth is that anyone plays a game that is entirely computerized simulation. Artificial intelligence has not gotten to that point in general, and in the case of certain games like Chess, artificial intelligence can beat the pants off the vast majority of humans - so there is really no competition or game there, either.
I'd wager that the poll was misinterpreted by most responders. The PvE-er responders actually wanted to respond that they wanted PvE without interplayersimulatedcombat. PvP simply means interplayer competition, and I guarantee that almost all of that 44% actually compares themselves to other players when they PvE.
As for PvP bringing the worst types into a gaming community, that is utterly false. The worst types are the people that can't handle getting beat by another player - and they are precisely the bulk of those who responded PvE-only. There is simply no comparison - the worst playerbases are "PvE-only." PvP playerbases are just typical humans.
Funny how the pure pvp gamers are such a small percent, yet they have way more mmo's released that are focused strictly on their play style. Pvp only mmo's abound, but how many quality pve only games do you get? seems every big Pve title has to cater somewhat to the pvp crowd.
Goes to show you how loud that small percent is doesnt it?
Wow... let's see... can I think of one pvp only mmo? Maybe the upcoming camelot unchained(not yet released).... or DAOC(2002).. that's pretty much it. Warhammer(2008) kind of.... L2(2003), Darkfall(2009?), Aion(2009)... It was made with pvp in mind primarily so I'll group it in here. Okay let's talk about primarily pve games... LOTRO, WOW, EQ2, EQ, RIFT, FFXI, FFXIV, DC Universe, Champions online, STO, TSO... and I know I'm missing sooo many games. People focused on PVE have a smorgasborg to chose from. PVE is the main way people play mmos... that said there's a large minority who like pvp and any game that choses to not put pvp at all into the game is missing out on cheap reusable content that and there are plenty of us that won't play a game that doesn't have ANY pvp. Beggars can't be chosers but we are the ones that have the small end of the stick here. Yes I like both pve and pvp but this sort of comment gets my dander up. If you only like pve that's fine but to complain that pvpers have so many choices of pvp centered mmos (sarcasm anyone?) is way off and almost offensively so.
Interesting poll. Not really surprised by the results.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I only do PVE...ITs not that I dislike PVP, its that I never found a system where the fights were fair.....Either you were competing against players way higher in level, players that had spent money to gain advantages from the cash shop, players who used 3rd party programs to cheat or gain advantage, or players who played 24/7 to get the absolute best stuff in the game........
Comments
Basically this for me. I spent most of my time doing PvE content and maybe 2-3% PvPing. Mostly because I tend to play tank classes who tend to fair terribly in PvP in favor of ranged classes. Which is fine with me. I'd rather have classes that are full of flavor and aren't balanced for PvP than to have everyone able to do a bit of everything for the sake of "balance" which ShakyMo pointed out truthfully is a lie.
The moments I've PvP'd have rarely been memorable as well. Usually just being destroyed by a group of people that come along, either during a 1 on 1 to clean up or just adventuring and being destroyed.
The one, most fun and memorable instance of it was a fight I had along side a few of my guildies with a member of a rival guild at the time. Yes, guilds that participate in mostly PvE can have rivals, shocking to some I'm sure. It was a single, uber geared Monk in EQ that had an absolute shit ton of clickable items to help him out. I specifically remember a blind...damn that was annoying. Anyways, he battled it out with probably 3 or 4 of us and really took it to us. We brought in a ringer cleric that sat out of the arena so she couldn't be touched and basically kept us at a stand still for an hour and a half (him bringing in his box cleric not long after we brought ours.) Finally, after about an hour and a half we took him down. Us 1, him probably about 15 kills but it felt pretty good. After that, me and him were good with each other, grouped up a few times actually to exp and joined his guild a few months later to tank as they rebuilt a bit. Truking, if you're out there, dammit you were a tough SOB to take down!
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
+1. Simple as that.
You do realize that EVERY single MMO, PvE or PvP has crafting in it? I guess crafting is the single biggest crowd in the genre!
Logic is a funny thing when applied equally.
Pve is just better in single players games. Name a recent mmo with better pve than skyrim or Witcher 2.
Now now, common sense isn't allowed around here. The same goes for facts.
IMO, there are both and combinations of them.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Really? who doesn't atleast play a little of all aspects of a game whether it is the favorite thing to do or not?
Dungeon/raid finder brings out the inner dick in people as well, you have people kicking others at random, leaving the group when they got their item, badmouthing people if they die, scream at the healer if they die regardless if its their own fault or not.
You don't need to PvP to be an asshole.
I think the reason you see that is that most MMOs have PvP as a kind of "stick on". The game is designed to be a PvE experience and then late in the development someone decides, "We've got to give the people something to do between PvE expansions, so we'll stick in battlegrounds." For PvP to be good in a game the game must be designed for PvP from the ground up. It can't be a developmental "add on" to appeal to gamers who like to PvP. I would rather have no PvP than afterthough, tack on PvP.
I'll repeat what I said in another thread. I think for PvE and PvP to survive in the same game you have to isolate them from each other as much as possible. The more they impact on one another the more the balance tips in favor of the most efficient game players, meaning the people who figure out how to get the most benefit for time spent in game or who just have more time to spend in game.
To me the thing that made it work in DAoC was the separation. RvR was entirely voluntary and if you didn't want to RvR all you did was stay in your realm and PvE. Eventually your toon would plateau in PvE. You hit a "gear limit" and a level cap where, pretty much no matter how much you PvE ed after that your toon wasn't going to gain any more power. By the same token, if you wanted your toon to get more powerful in RvR, you had to RvR and get realm ranks and realm points to by realm abilities. Everyone had access to pretty much the same thing in PvE and RvR.
It all made sense to me. If I didn't want to get ganked by high level enemies, I stayed in my realm. I could get to level cap and get geared up without interference, so I could eliminate the advantages of my enemy having more PvE time by simply refusing to engage until I caught up. Then when I decided to go out on the frontier I did so knowing that the only advantages my enemy held on me were 1) any realm rank advantage he had for being on the frontier more than me and 2) his skill at playing his toon.
Where it broke down was the introduction of Trials of Atlantis where if you spent more time PvEing with your level 50 that toon got exponentially stronger in not only PvE, but in RvR as well. Suddenly the toon everyone had been using in RvR sucessfully for over a year was bashed into a grease spot by a toon that had never seen the frontier before, but was wearing six artifacts and had all ten master levels done (things one did not have to PvP at all to get). Suddenly PvE rewards had more impact on getting RvR rewards than either 1) skill or 2) time spent in RvR.
In my mind for it to work you almost have to design the PvE and PvP aspects of the game separately and keep them as separated as possible. That prevents low levels from being ganked by high levels (unless the low levels voluntarily expose themselves to it) and it prevents the power creep in PvP that adding more PvE content to the game necessarily involves.
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
This can never be same in different times, one time I want to pve 100% other times just 10% or non, and anything in between.
That depands on my mood.
PVP and PVE should be on separate servers, or as an option by flagging for pvp.
I don't hate pvp I just hate it in pve focused mmos. I love games like world of tanks ( I have 12k battles + 4k from beta :P ) or LoL or even shooters when I'm in the mood. MMO pvp is just lame grinds and 95% of the time it's gear vrs gear not player vrs player.
I'm always happy to see an mmo have no pvp. It means no lame nerfs because devs can't make a skill work in both pvp and pve. If an mmo does have pvp I ignore it.
Can't speak for anyone else, but my experience with free games is that most of them are cr@p.
There's no reason a developer can't have a vision for a game, where the PvE and PvP elements support that central vision. I'm not sure that's what most developers do, but there's no reason it can't be done. I think a big problem is that "balance" word there.
Not just balancing things for PvE or PvP, but trying to balance the PvP elements of the game with the PvE elements of the game so that one or the other isn't too important. I think TSW has the right idea. Focus on what you're good at (PvE), and work on the other (PvP), but don't let it run the game. If that means a game is 95% PvE and 5% PvP, then so be it. It's better to make a better game than to make a game with a perfect 50/50 split between those two types of game play. Trying to get that 50/50 split is how game mechanics just get thrown into a game seemingly at random.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
What 50/50 games?
Gw2, daoc, gw1 if you count it as a mmo, err.... I'm struggling to think of anymore
I'm just tired of balance decisions in my PvE MMO being made to placate the super-whiny PvP crowd. Hell, several classes in WoW were completely screwed over bigtime because of those godawful arenas. Agents / smugglers in SWTOR were nerfed into uselessness because of PvPers whining.
I wish developers would, in games which involve both PvE and PvP, learn to divide class skills / abilities into PvP and PvE versions. That way one could be adjusted without completely screwing over the other. Of course this requires both extra work and foresight on their part, which isn't likely to happen any time soon.
Because there is no PvP-less games. Just because a game has PvE (player vs. environment) gameplay, does not mean the players can't use the player vs. environment game for player vs. player comparisons. The myth is that anyone plays a game that is entirely computerized simulation. Artificial intelligence has not gotten to that point in general, and in the case of certain games like Chess, artificial intelligence can beat the pants off the vast majority of humans - so there is really no competition or game there, either.
I'd wager that the poll was misinterpreted by most responders. The PvE-er responders actually wanted to respond that they wanted PvE without interplayer simulated combat. PvP simply means interplayer competition, and I guarantee that almost all of that 44% actually compares themselves to other players when they PvE.
As for PvP bringing the worst types into a gaming community, that is utterly false. The worst types are the people that can't handle getting beat by another player - and they are precisely the bulk of those who responded PvE-only. There is simply no comparison - the worst playerbases are "PvE-only." PvP playerbases are just typical humans.
If some days you were 100% PVP, and some days you were 100% PVE, obviously you'd vote "50/50" (assuming a balanced mix of days)
It's not rocket surgery.
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The balance myth shines stronger when pure in some 5 vs 5 match that's pretending real hard its like quake.
Wow... let's see... can I think of one pvp only mmo? Maybe the upcoming camelot unchained(not yet released).... or DAOC(2002).. that's pretty much it. Warhammer(2008) kind of.... L2(2003), Darkfall(2009?), Aion(2009)... It was made with pvp in mind primarily so I'll group it in here. Okay let's talk about primarily pve games... LOTRO, WOW, EQ2, EQ, RIFT, FFXI, FFXIV, DC Universe, Champions online, STO, TSO... and I know I'm missing sooo many games. People focused on PVE have a smorgasborg to chose from. PVE is the main way people play mmos... that said there's a large minority who like pvp and any game that choses to not put pvp at all into the game is missing out on cheap reusable content that and there are plenty of us that won't play a game that doesn't have ANY pvp. Beggars can't be chosers but we are the ones that have the small end of the stick here. Yes I like both pve and pvp but this sort of comment gets my dander up. If you only like pve that's fine but to complain that pvpers have so many choices of pvp centered mmos (sarcasm anyone?) is way off and almost offensively so.
I am happy with PvE only worlds.
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Interesting poll. Not really surprised by the results.