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This would be much better with 2 major factions

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  • Two factions simply don't work since one side will always be bigger and thus steamroll the other. Just look at past two-faction games. Only way to make it work is to enforce even teams in instanced battlegrounds, where any number of factions will work.
  • Eol-Eol- houston, TXPosts: 274Member
    Originally posted by Alders  
    Doesn't change the fact that he's right.  Times and players have changed.  No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore and will flock to the side where the most "known" large PVP guilds decide to go.  2 weaker factions ganging up on the larger one will last a week at most until players reroll for easy wins.

     

    There is so much wrong about this post it is hard to tell where to start.

    First of all, who says that big PvP guilds will all go to the same place? This in a game with many campaigns (eg servers) and three different alliances?

    And even if they did,how could you possibly know that the alliance with some PvP guilds will be able to beat two other alliances combined?

    Third, how do you know these guilds will roll the same alliance? If they roll different alliances it increases the odds they will be pitted against each other.

    Fourth, choice of alliance wont be automatic, it seems like the game will have some control over changes of campaigns which will make it hard for such guilds to end up in the same campaign in the same alliance.

    Fifth, how could you possibly know that no one cares about server/faction pride? You speak for everyone? In a game that is PvP endgame focused, players will have a strong incentive to work together, and continue to do so. In fact the alliances that do this first and best will have a big advantage. In games where PvP is instanced its a lot different than games where PvP is perpetual; you will see many of the same players over and over and over, unlike an instanced games where when one BG ends, you re-queue and find yourself in an entirely new team.

    Your logic applies more to a game where PvP consists of battlegrounds with relatively small groups where elite teams can dominate. That same logic doesnt apply so much to games with alliances and persistent campaigns with persistent players/teammates.

    Elladan - ESO (AD)
    Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
    Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
    Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
    Kili - WoW
    Eol - Lineage 2
    Camring - SWG
    Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  • Eol-Eol- houston, TXPosts: 274Member
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Two factions simply don't work since one side will always be bigger and thus steamroll the other. Just look at past two-faction games. Only way to make it work is to enforce even teams in instanced battlegrounds, where any number of factions will work.

    and even that doesnt make it work very well because then coordinated teams will dominate pickup groups. The hardcore players dominate even more in even numbered battles because of this. But even a coordinated hardcore group will get zerged when they are a small fraction of their alliance and the other alliance(s) are more numerous.

    There is much more flexibility and adaptability in a 3 realm system. Not to say it always works - nothing ALWAYS works - but the mechanism for self-correction is much better than in a 2 realm system where once one side gets a big advantage it is much less likely to self-correct.

    Elladan - ESO (AD)
    Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
    Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
    Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
    Kili - WoW
    Eol - Lineage 2
    Camring - SWG
    Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  • GrunchGrunch yuma, AZPosts: 493Member
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    WoW was the first to do only two major factions, instead of three. This worked out much better, for balance. You didn't have anyone ganging up on the little guy either. It also made the game more interesting. This also proved to be a far more popular design, as seen by how many people got into it.

     

    In WoW, you had Alliance vs Horde. If they were to have done capture points in the open world, it would have been far more hectic than if you had a third faction.

     

    Just imagine

     

    A 100 vs 100 battle (if they had that in WoW)...all even. This is epic. But then if there was a 3rd faction, they'd come along and greatly overbalance one side and the battle becomes no fun anymore. The only people who would have fun are the one that pwn the now greatly outnumbered side.

     

    Three factions can never be balanced, as seen in DAOC. One faction is always greatly outnumbered and gets pwned all the time...they can't play the game or capture anything, because the two sides always go after them as they are easy pickings. This will be even more true with the modern MMO crowd, who always choose the 1 (or 2) most popular sides and want the easy pickings of the weak faction.

     

    That is never a problem with 2 factions, as WoW proved.

     

    (edit: Also look at GW2. It has three servers against each other, but one server is ALWAYS getting pwned so badly. Most badly I've seen thus far is one server had 200k points, another 190k points and the third had a measly 6k points. This again would be vastly different in a server vs setup, and not a three way server battle).

     

    So I think they should have the 3rd faction be AI controlled only, so they don't have to redesign or get rid of anything. An AI controlled faction would be rather interesting anyway.

    Is this a joke thread?

    Great idea! Copy WoW because that has never been done before. 3 factions is waaaaay better then just 2. With two factions one will always outnumber the other and then the underdog stops logging in. Go back to 2001 and play DAoC and you will see how much better three factions are then two. At least with three factions the lower populated realm can jump into a fight between the other two realms or while the other two are fighting each other they can capture a holding or something.

    "I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Alders
    Originally posted by azzamasin Originally posted by Livnthedream Originally posted by azzamasin I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.
    Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.
    TSW is crap, PS2 is a Shooter, GW2's WvW is crap.  2 of these I played offerd no real group or faction specific incentives it was all personal.   TSW and GW2 do something that DAoC never did.  No racial enmity, enemies can group in PvE and there is no  cause for killing other then to gain artificial points.  Plus the PvP (RvR) areas they do battle in is about the size of a peanut compared to the large area of DAoC's frontier (and ESO's Cryodill).   PS2 is just a shooter and does not appeal to the same type of gamer so that is a non issue in my book.
     

    Doesn't change the fact that he's right.  Times and players have changed.  No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore and will flock to the side where the most "known" large PVP guilds decide to go.  2 weaker factions ganging up on the larger one will last a week at most until players reroll for easy wins.


    except i am willing to bet that wont work in TESO unless you are a member of those guilds. i don't think you pick which pvp campaign to join, one is assigned to you.

    if you re-roll a different faction it will not put you in the same campaign you were just in with another character, it will put you in a different campaign.

    unless you delete that character maybe? even then i don't think you can pick which campaign to join but ya never know.

  • NerfmehNerfmeh SkopjePosts: 36Member
    Well personally if i had the power would insert like 10+ factions ( clans ) .... cos why the hell not ?
  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by baphamet

    except i am willing to bet that wont work in TESO unless you are a member of those guilds. i don't think you pick which pvp campaign to join, one is assigned to you.

    if you re-roll a different faction it will not put you in the same campaign you were just in with another character, it will put you in a different campaign.

    unless you delete that character maybe? even then i don't think you can pick which campaign to join but ya never know.

    Except players are douchebags. A fair number will just stop logging in because they perceive that they cannot win and therefore its impossible to try. But honestly, based on what has been said its not designed that way anyhow as you can always join your friends campaign. Campaigns have been said to be synonomous with shards/servers being the thing that you are tied to but not confined to.

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Livnthedream

    Originally posted by baphamet except i am willing to bet that wont work in TESO unless you are a member of those guilds. i don't think you pick which pvp campaign to join, one is assigned to you. if you re-roll a different faction it will not put you in the same campaign you were just in with another character, it will put you in a different campaign. unless you delete that character maybe? even then i don't think you can pick which campaign to join but ya never know.
    Except players are douchebags. A fair number will just stop logging in because they perceive that they cannot win and therefore its impossible to try. But honestly, based on what has been said its not designed that way anyhow as you can always join your friends campaign. Campaigns have been said to be synonomous with shards/servers being the thing that you are tied to but not confined to.

    from the info we have, you cannot "join" campaigns, they are assigned to you.

    if you are in a campaign with your friends and/or guild, then you are tied to that campaign.

    now i am not 100% positive on the next statement as it has not yet been confirmed but i would be willing to bet that if you decide to change campaigns, you cannot just pick one that is winning, another one would likely be assigned to you.

    i make that assumption based on the fact that you are not allowed to pick a campaign to begin with, hopefully you cannot if you decide to switch as well.

    as far as your point about people not doing pvp that are assigned to a campaign where their faction is losing (they can still log in and decide not to participate in the pvp) that is an issue that plagues any mmo with optional pvp similar to this.

    the devs have said that when a faction is low in numbers in a certain campaign, they will add new players to that campaign to try and even it out.

    which is another reason why i believe they will not let you pick what campaign you want to join thus further making the factions unbalanced.


  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon

    another thing to consider is these pvp campaigns have a shelf life, whenever the campaigns end they can re-balance them similar to what GW2 does.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Originally posted by baphamet

    another thing to consider is these pvp campaigns have a shelf life, whenever the campaigns end they can re-balance them similar to what GW2 does.

    ending is a mistake

    this is what GW2 does with its server shuffle, and WAR does with its city seige.

    DAOC and planetside don't end, they are by far the best 2 games to do this sort of PVP.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.

    Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.

    TSW is a PVE fest.  During closed beta a bunch of "everquest types" whined like fuck, much like they do in every mmo in beta (and as they are doing with TESO now).  So in the end they let everyone be chums in PVE, but fight in PVP.  Suprise suprise the "PVP" in TSW ended up being a keep trading fest to power gear PVErs so they could get a starter set for the end game dungeons.  Its the only mmo iv'e played where I got screamed at by my own side for actually pvping in the pvp area.

    GW2 left server transfers open to long.  Also there is no long term draw with the server shuffle and not knowing who killed you. If they had closed down transfers like 1 week after launch it probably would have been a better pvp game.

    You are incorrect on PS2.  PS2 has a HARD FACTION LOCK just like DAOC and planetside 1.  The servers are much more balanced.  Also the ammount of time you invest in characters discourages rerolling to the cheap side.  Finally being the succesor to the 1st plaentside theire are a bunch of hardcore pvp guilds from PS1 (and the likes of DAOC, lineage2 and shadowbane) who really really dont want to play for the "newb zergers" on a given server.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    WoW was the first to do only two major factions, instead of three. This worked out much better, for balance. You didn't have anyone ganging up on the little guy either. It also made the game more interesting. This also proved to be a far more popular design, as seen by how many people got into it.

     

    In WoW, you had Alliance vs Horde. If they were to have done capture points in the open world, it would have been far more hectic than if you had a third faction.

     

    Just imagine

     

    A 100 vs 100 battle (if they had that in WoW)...all even. This is epic. But then if there was a 3rd faction, they'd come along and greatly overbalance one side and the battle becomes no fun anymore. The only people who would have fun are the one that pwn the now greatly outnumbered side.

     

    Three factions can never be balanced, as seen in DAOC. One faction is always greatly outnumbered and gets pwned all the time...they can't play the game or capture anything, because the two sides always go after them as they are easy pickings. This will be even more true with the modern MMO crowd, who always choose the 1 (or 2) most popular sides and want the easy pickings of the weak faction.

     

    That is never a problem with 2 factions, as WoW proved.

     

    (edit: Also look at GW2. It has three servers against each other, but one server is ALWAYS getting pwned so badly. Most badly I've seen thus far is one server had 200k points, another 190k points and the third had a measly 6k points. This again would be vastly different in a server vs setup, and not a three way server battle).

     

    So I think they should have the 3rd faction be AI controlled only, so they don't have to redesign or get rid of anything. An AI controlled faction would be rather interesting anyway.

    thats because wow is a 95% PVE game where the PVP is either INSTANCED SHITE or magical fairy land flick a switch and PVP magically happens servers.

    My planetside 2 server is

    36% New conglomerate

    32% vanu sovereignty

    32% terran republic

    FIND ONE WOW SERVER ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD THAT IS THAT BALANCED

  • LordSneergLordSneerg Lorton, VAPosts: 119Member
    I love how the op makes a statement but has not played the game. Play the game first before you can accurately assess the game. Geesh give the game a chance to come out. Sigh
  • EnoyxEnoyx Columbus, OHPosts: 8Member
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    WoW was the first to do only two major factions, instead of three. This worked out much better, for balance. You didn't have anyone ganging up on the little guy either. It also made the game more interesting. This also proved to be a far more popular design, as seen by how many people got into it.

     

    In WoW, you had Alliance vs Horde. If they were to have done capture points in the open world, it would have been far more hectic than if you had a third faction.

     

    Just imagine

     

    A 100 vs 100 battle (if they had that in WoW)...all even. This is epic. But then if there was a 3rd faction, they'd come along and greatly overbalance one side and the battle becomes no fun anymore. The only people who would have fun are the one that pwn the now greatly outnumbered side.

     

    Three factions can never be balanced, as seen in DAOC. One faction is always greatly outnumbered and gets pwned all the time...they can't play the game or capture anything, because the two sides always go after them as they are easy pickings. This will be even more true with the modern MMO crowd, who always choose the 1 (or 2) most popular sides and want the easy pickings of the weak faction.

     

    That is never a problem with 2 factions, as WoW proved.

     

    I just dont think this is true at all. Two faction/two sided fighting has never worked for open world games. It works in PvP scenarios with captured points or short matches but when you have a continuous battle in the open world it just isnt as effective. One side always ends up being unfairly stacked against another and there is no real way to have the game naturally balance itself back out.

     

    If you have ever played a 3 faction game, even the ones that didnt do it necessarily the best, your scenario where two sides work together simply cant work together the way you describe. Battle is simply too messy when you are in the middle of it to avoid hitting a faction because they are "working" with you. The lack of communication between sides also helps prevent this. In a game like DAOC, the only way to communicate was to have somone "cross-realming" which is something that is quickly banned.

     

    The comment about three factions never being balanced with DAOC being an example is simply false. Most of the servers had great faction balance where one or two sides would raid and take over huge sections but there would always be a response by the other factions. It worked in DAOC because as a faction took over more area, it had more to defend. The more you had to defend, the ahrder it was to defned. This provided an incentive for the other realms to engage you. The biggest problem with a game like GW2 is that it does not have this advantage. The different WvW areas are all separate, too small, and have number control on each zone. It makes it all to easy to control everything and keep it. Unlike DAOC, a raid in one team's area does not indicate a vulnerability in another. This concept is what kept DAOC from having your "easy pickings" problem. If you logged on in Albion and saw Midguard was taking over Hibernia, for example, your first though wasnt "lets go hit Hybernia too" because Midguard was already there with numbers. Your thought was "hey Midguard is preoccupied with Hibs, lets hit them in their own zone". This was fun not only because it would lead to Hibernia receving help in a natural way by forcing Midguard to go home to defend, it also created the ability for much more small group stratergy. Games like GW2 make this impossilbe with their small seperate maps and create very much a "zerg or be zerged" mentality.

     

    I'm not saying that ESO is a guarenteed home run in open world PvP, but I think it's pretty clear that three faction is a indicator of promise, not a concern. 

     

     

  • NeherunNeherun St. MichelPosts: 278Member
    Originally posted by muffins89
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    Spoken like the WoW fanboi you are OP.  I suppose you're one of those who insist WoW was the first MMO too.

     

     

     it was the first truley Massive on.   ;)

     

    Right, as the SERVER crashed if fights exceeded over 100 people, or the game lagged itself out.

     

    Meanwhile in games like Shadowbane....

     

    image

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    You are incorrect on PS2.  PS2 has a HARD FACTION LOCK just like DAOC and planetside 1.  The servers are much more balanced.  Also the ammount of time you invest in characters discourages rerolling to the cheap side.  Finally being the succesor to the 1st plaentside theire are a bunch of hardcore pvp guilds from PS1 (and the likes of DAOC, lineage2 and shadowbane) who really really dont want to play for the "newb zergers" on a given server.

    My experience on Helios as a TR would disagree. Hard lock or not we get flanked by Vanu far more often than they start their own push into NC territory. I for one as looking forward to the merge with Connory, though by all accounts it too is NC heavy, which is funny since they are so "underpowered" according to the forums.

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    I predict 23 more threads on top of the 18 we've already had ...advocating two factions rather than the three factions. OP.... Three factions  is a settled core feature of ESOL.

     

    OP ..think 3 factions doesn't work.....check DAOC......10+ years and still going. It has 3 factions.....an dare I say inviolate realm territorys that can only be visited by creating a character in the other realms !!

     

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Shadanwolf

    I predict 23 more threads on top of the 18 we've already had ...advocating two factions rather than the three factions. OP.... Three factions  is a settled core feature of ESOL.

     

    OP ..think 3 factions doesn't work.....check DAOC......10+ years and still going. It has 3 factions.....an dare I say inviolate realm territorys that can only be visited by creating a character in the other realms !!

     

    I wouldn't call life support for the last 8 years as "still going" personally.

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    They should have like 10 factions imho, I wouldn't join any of them, since I'd be happy just chopping down trees and making bows, shields, housing stuff, etc.  But it would be cool :)
  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Personally, I'd rather have seen 2 player factions and 1 NPC faction. This would have done a great deal to keep me interested and still help maintain the balance that 3 factions can bring. It also would have been more in the spirit of TES games imho. 
  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member

    I disagree.  In an open RvR system like DAoC, three factions is superior.  WoW was unbalanced and the majority of PvP was instanced besides.

     

    Now, in an elder scrolls game, it would make more sense to me if players could choose to join factions as their characters grow, some of which would be PvP enabled throughout the world.

  • Redhawk2006Redhawk2006 Dallas, TXPosts: 105Member

    I have to agree here based on what I have seen with GW2. I have been on two different servers in multiple tiers in GW2, and it is not uncommon to have two sides gang up on the third side. This doesn't require some nefarious consipracy although there are sometimes wilfull alliances or a deliberate policy of  targeting one enemy over the other. What usually happens is one side just happens to be weak and everyone just naturally goes after the weaker side rather than take on the heavy hitters. Some servers are just horribly outmanned at different times of the day, but viable at other times. It really is a fustercluck.

    Two sides matched by time zone/population would be a lot better. If one side was weaker than the other it is possible recruitment or limiting the number of bodies to balance as WoW does could make up the difference. But when one side is weaker than the other two and the other two are ganking your side to the point no one wants to do WvW  RVR or whatever, then good luck getting recruits.

    Throw in death penalty BS and having to run miles looking for fights a la GW2 and getting people to participate in WvW can be a nightmare.

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    With 3 factions even if 1 has more players, the other 2 can still have a good time fighting each other or gang up on the bigger one. With 2 factions once the larger populated side starts to dominate, people flee the smaller side and you quickly get server death (at least in PvP). Besides having 3 sides just adds a lot more variety to PvP because you're not always fighting the same people and you can be fighting one realm then have the 3rd show up and get a massive, hectic 3 way battle. For AvA to have any chance of being popular and successful, 3 realms is definitely the way to go.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I can't think of a single 2 faction game with good pvp.

    War was average

    The rest were very poor.
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