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TESO uses a modified version HeroEngine

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Comments

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    There are plenty of awful games that use modified Unreal engine too.

    Just because TOR had a lot of problems with Hero engine doesn't mean all games that use Hero engine (or pieces of it) are destined to have the same problems.

    Lesson in causality.

    People like to point fingers and say "See! This is why, right here!"

    Because simple explainations to complex problems are easy for us to digest.

    Easy for us to rally behind and pontificate against.

     

  • wowcloneswowclones Los Angeles, CAPosts: 127Member
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    According to Bioware - main reason SWTOR failed is HeroEngine.

    It is a blight on the industry.

    That is not what he mean't. What he was saying was building an engine, in general, and trying to make a game at the same time killed them. That was their fault, remeber this article where Bioware had to beg for the unfinished engine, and was told it wasnt a good idea? Remeber this article was posted before TOR came out, http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/

  • wowcloneswowclones Los Angeles, CAPosts: 127Member
    Originally posted by snapfusion
    Originally posted by wowclones

    First off, HeroEngine is a great engine, so this is not a flame post. I have been a long time user of HeroEngine, after watching the leaked video, I can tell you 100% that it is HeroEngine. They tried to deny using it for the final version here http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/26/the-elder-scrolls-online-using-heroengine-as-a-whiteboard/ . They never dropped it, it was just a PR move to avoid the connection with TOR and HeroEngine. From the way the terrain textures are laid on the ground to the way the  grass blades (billboards) blow in the wind, it is Heroengine.  Understand things like that differ  from engine to engine, for it to be exact means it's using the same core. Although the water shader has been modified. Everything else is Hero. Possibly that video was made during the "Whiteboard" stage of production, but what is in the video is Hero.

    What a mess of wrong you have conjured together, there are so many ways to disprove your tin foil drama post its just funny.

    it only turns to tinfoil when people like you come in here posting, I have said nothing bad about Heroengine or TESO have I? Any drama you are seeing is in your brain becasue you are a person who only knows drama. 

  • heroenginesidekickheroenginesidekick Washington, DCPosts: 5Member
    .
  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by snapfusion
    Originally posted by wowclones

    First off, HeroEngine is a great engine, so this is not a flame post. I have been a long time user of HeroEngine, after watching the leaked video, I can tell you 100% that it is HeroEngine. They tried to deny using it for the final version here http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/26/the-elder-scrolls-online-using-heroengine-as-a-whiteboard/ . They never dropped it, it was just a PR move to avoid the connection with TOR and HeroEngine. From the way the terrain textures are laid on the ground to the way the  grass blades (billboards) blow in the wind, it is Heroengine.  Understand things like that differ  from engine to engine, for it to be exact means it's using the same core. Although the water shader has been modified. Everything else is Hero. Possibly that video was made during the "Whiteboard" stage of production, but what is in the video is Hero.

    What a mess of wrong you have conjured together, there are so many ways to disprove your tin foil drama post its just funny.

    Yet you fail to list just 1.

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wowclones
    Originally posted by snapfusion
    Originally posted by wowclones

    First off, HeroEngine is a great engine, so this is not a flame post. I have been a long time user of HeroEngine, after watching the leaked video, I can tell you 100% that it is HeroEngine. They tried to deny using it for the final version here http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/26/the-elder-scrolls-online-using-heroengine-as-a-whiteboard/ . They never dropped it, it was just a PR move to avoid the connection with TOR and HeroEngine. From the way the terrain textures are laid on the ground to the way the  grass blades (billboards) blow in the wind, it is Heroengine.  Understand things like that differ  from engine to engine, for it to be exact means it's using the same core. Although the water shader has been modified. Everything else is Hero. Possibly that video was made during the "Whiteboard" stage of production, but what is in the video is Hero.

    What a mess of wrong you have conjured together, there are so many ways to disprove your tin foil drama post its just funny.

    it only turns to tinfoil when people like you come in here posting, I have said nothing bad about Heroengine or TESO have I? Any drama you are seeing is in your brain becasue you are a person who only knows drama. 

    oh please.  you're the one trying to stir up drama.  you accuse of zenimax of pr spin in your post.  who cares if they are using the hero engine or not?  i don't.  if the game's fun i'll play it. 

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • CleffyCleffy San Diego, CAPosts: 4,625Member Uncommon

    Most likely, TESO is on a heavily modified Hero Engine.  Remember, they said Skyrim was built on its own custom engine.  However, that was built on a heavily modified Gamebryo Engine.  It would be foolish to design on the hero engine, yet not use it as a base for an mmo.  There is the base code for an mmo written into the Hero Engine that would take years to recode.  It really does not make sense to redo the basics that amount to hundreds of thousands lines of code.  Most engines are designed to be modified and come with sparse features, but matured tools.  With C++ you don't even need to bother taking out code, you can just make the function a virtual.

    Out of any middle-ware engine, Hero Engine has the best design tools which significantly decreases lag during the production pipeline.  For any mmo hoping to be successful, reducing production pipeline overhead is one of the most important things to tackle.  Making it easy to add content is cost effective and necessary for a stable playerbase.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,618Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muffins89
    Originally posted by wowclones
    Originally posted by snapfusion
    Originally posted by wowclones

    First off, HeroEngine is a great engine, so this is not a flame post. I have been a long time user of HeroEngine, after watching the leaked video, I can tell you 100% that it is HeroEngine. They tried to deny using it for the final version here http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/26/the-elder-scrolls-online-using-heroengine-as-a-whiteboard/ . They never dropped it, it was just a PR move to avoid the connection with TOR and HeroEngine. From the way the terrain textures are laid on the ground to the way the  grass blades (billboards) blow in the wind, it is Heroengine.  Understand things like that differ  from engine to engine, for it to be exact means it's using the same core. Although the water shader has been modified. Everything else is Hero. Possibly that video was made during the "Whiteboard" stage of production, but what is in the video is Hero.

    What a mess of wrong you have conjured together, there are so many ways to disprove your tin foil drama post its just funny.

    it only turns to tinfoil when people like you come in here posting, I have said nothing bad about Heroengine or TESO have I? Any drama you are seeing is in your brain becasue you are a person who only knows drama. 

    oh please.  you're the one trying to stir up drama.  you accuse of zenimax of pr spin in your post.  who cares if they are using the hero engine or not?  i don't.  if the game's fun i'll play it. 

     Actually there was a distinct lack of spin in his post and a disclaimer to boot. If there's any drama here, he didn't start it.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Cleffy virtual functions are a massive performance hit.

    I doubt high performance games use them, they will use other techniques like templates.
  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    There are plenty of awful games that use modified Unreal engine too.

    Just because TOR had a lot of problems with Hero engine doesn't mean all games that use Hero engine (or pieces of it) are destined to have the same problems.

    Lesson in causality.

    People like to point fingers and say "See! This is why, right here!"

    Because simple explainations to complex problems are easy for us to digest.

    Easy for us to rally behind and pontificate against.

     

    Agreed!

    A whole bunch of people on forums like these could do with reading up about 'root cause analysis' before posting.

    As for the Hero Engine and Matt's claims - I see nothing damning about it - he didn't say how much modification of the engine was going to be going on, or in what areas - animation, UI, textures, AA, etc. etc.

    My wife is a dev, so I only have second hand wisdom to offer on this. However, she is always bangng on about the success of products rely more on the innovative ways in which existing platforms are used rather than the platform. It tends to be when a paradigm shift in platform comes that allows completely new capabilities that the platform itself starts to become the dominant issue.

    So it would appear to me that the question is - has a paradigm shift in game engines really made the Hero Engine obsolete, or are we assuming so because previous uses of it have been unimaginative?

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    There are also cases where platforms and engines are designed using patterns that are fundementally incorrect. For example you design a website using a request-respons messaging strategy and then find it doesn't scale well. You can tweak around the edges, use threading, callbacks, async calls and you may get a big improvement in performance at the cost of complexity but you are still dealing with a potentially inappropriate design, a far better and simple solution would be to throw away the engine and use a service bus instead.

    The question boils down to wether the hero engine is a suitable architecture for modern mmorgs.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wowclones

    First off, HeroEngine is a great engine, so this is not a flame post. I have been a long time user of HeroEngine, after watching the leaked video, I can tell you 100% that it is HeroEngine. They tried to deny using it for the final version here http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/26/the-elder-scrolls-online-using-heroengine-as-a-whiteboard/ . They never dropped it, it was just a PR move to avoid the connection with TOR and HeroEngine. From the way the terrain textures are laid on the ground to the way the  grass blades (billboards) blow in the wind, it is Heroengine.  Understand things like that differ  from engine to engine, for it to be exact means it's using the same core. Although the water shader has been modified. Everything else is Hero. Possibly that video was made during the "Whiteboard" stage of production, but what is in the video is Hero.

    you didn't read what they said, did you?

    it's not using a modified hero engine, they are taking ideas from it.

     

    http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/25/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-isn-39-t-using-heroengine.aspx

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • JC-SmithJC-Smith Chiang MaiPosts: 413Member Uncommon
    Couldn't help but notice the Hero Engine logo on the installer screen to TeSO. So it's still using Hero. My guess is they replaced the renderer kept the server code.
  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JC-Smith
    Couldn't help but notice the Hero Engine logo on the installer screen to TeSO. So it's still using Hero. My guess is they replaced the renderer kept the server code.

    If you pay close attention you will also see something else pop up during the intro splash screens. ;)

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by JC-Smith
    Couldn't help but notice the Hero Engine logo on the installer screen to TeSO. So it's still using Hero. My guess is they replaced the renderer kept the server code.

    If you pay close attention you will also see something else pop up during the intro splash screens. ;)

    It isn't the Hero engine, it is just a heavily modified version of the Hero engine, whooopeee.

    image
  • VoqarVoqar Phoenix, AZPosts: 498Member

    I thought hero engine a really bad move for for a premium game like SWTOR (they should've rolled their own).

     

    I would hope that the mistake wasn't made again for ESO.

     

    Why would you want critical elements of your game to be bound to a 3rd party and not under your direct control - just a horrific idea for a game of the scope of a major MMORPG.

    Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    That explains why there is no chat bubbles or sitting in chairs.  Hopefully The Repopulation uses an updated version.

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by JC-Smith
    Couldn't help but notice the Hero Engine logo on the installer screen to TeSO. So it's still using Hero. My guess is they replaced the renderer kept the server code.

    If you pay close attention you will also see something else pop up during the intro splash screens. ;)

    It isn't the Hero engine, it is just a heavily modified version of the Hero engine, whooopeee.

    /SIGH!  Everyone gets blinded by the HERO Engine logo that they completely missed the big fat HAVOK logo right after? 0.o

  • rawfoxrawfox HamburgPosts: 648Member Uncommon

    Did you really thought, they gonna write a whole mmorpg in a Elderscrolls theme in that short time ?

    They used to get a lot of tools to actually programm the toolbox.

    Hero engine means a hell of instances that are each limited to a lol of a population.

    Its a zonescreen adventure, no matter what game comes out of it.

    Im sorry, but to me, Hero engine is a nightmare ^^

     

     

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Voqar

    I thought hero engine a really bad move for for a premium game like SWTOR (they should've rolled their own).

     

    I would hope that the mistake wasn't made again for ESO.

     

    Why would you want critical elements of your game to be bound to a 3rd party and not under your direct control - just a horrific idea for a game of the scope of a major MMORPG.

    The problem with SW:TOR was that they used a pre-release version of the Hero Engine and heavily modified it!

    Due to that, they were unable to receive patches and version upgrades from Hero Engine through the years.

    That was the issue!  Not Hero Engine itself. As today Hero Engine is a pretty decent engine.

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rawfox

    Did you really thought, they gonna write a whole mmorpg in a Elderscrolls theme in that short time ?

    They used to get a lot of tools to actually programm the toolbox.

    Hero engine means a hell of instances that are each limited to a lol of a population.

    Its a zonescreen adventure, no matter what game comes out of it.

    Im sorry, but to me, Hero engine is a nightmare ^^

     

     

    Hero engine does not mean any of that at all..

    SWTOR used a very early version of the Hero Engine and then decided to change a ton of stuff  themselves so what you see in SWTOR has nothing to do with the current version of the hero engine.

    Even 2 years ago when I was messing around with the engine as a hobby you could already create a large world and have it split up into virtual seamless zones.. data would only load in adjacent zones.. so the engine two years ago was fully capable of running a large open world mmorpg with no instancing.

     

    Just check out waht The Repopulation are donig with it.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by JC-Smith
    Couldn't help but notice the Hero Engine logo on the installer screen to TeSO. So it's still using Hero. My guess is they replaced the renderer kept the server code.

    If you pay close attention you will also see something else pop up during the intro splash screens. ;)

    It isn't the Hero engine, it is just a heavily modified version of the Hero engine, whooopeee.

    /SIGH!  Everyone gets blinded by the HERO Engine logo that they completely missed the big fat HAVOK logo right after? 0.o

    Havok is a physics engine... one that will get put into World of Tanks soon if I am not mistaken... my turn now -sigh-

    image
  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by JC-Smith
    Couldn't help but notice the Hero Engine logo on the installer screen to TeSO. So it's still using Hero. My guess is they replaced the renderer kept the server code.

    If you pay close attention you will also see something else pop up during the intro splash screens. ;)

    It isn't the Hero engine, it is just a heavily modified version of the Hero engine, whooopeee.

    /SIGH!  Everyone gets blinded by the HERO Engine logo that they completely missed the big fat HAVOK logo right after? 0.o

    Havok is a physics engine... one that will get put into World of Tanks soon if I am not mistaken... my turn now -sigh-

    Which they use together with their inhouse Creation Engine.

    But even if they use the Hero Engine now, you can already see how impressive it has become. It runs a hell lot better than SW:TOR.

    The Graphics blow SW:TOR out of the water and the framerates (overall performance) are also much better.

     

    PS. HAVOK is no longer just a Physics Engine. They are much much more than that these days. Just have a look at their website.

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by JC-Smith
    Couldn't help but notice the Hero Engine logo on the installer screen to TeSO. So it's still using Hero. My guess is they replaced the renderer kept the server code.

    If you pay close attention you will also see something else pop up during the intro splash screens. ;)

    It isn't the Hero engine, it is just a heavily modified version of the Hero engine, whooopeee.

    /SIGH!  Everyone gets blinded by the HERO Engine logo that they completely missed the big fat HAVOK logo right after? 0.o

    Havok is a physics engine... one that will get put into World of Tanks soon if I am not mistaken... my turn now -sigh-

    Havok also have a game engine called the vision engine.

    http://www.havok.com/products/vision-engine

     

    They also do the physics plug in as you mentioned for other engines.

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This discussion has been closed.