I am a bit picky, because I see the value in keeping combat simplier.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and randomly assume that you would consider DAOC a reasonably good combat system
Between shears, NS, AOE falloff, armor resists, chants, twisting, positional styles, chain styles, interrupts and fumbles, DAOC's combat was not "simple".
Don't take this the wrong way, but I think the word you're looking for is "familiar", not simple.
I don't think DAOC is perfect haha, was not a fan of buff shears at all game was at its best pre that change. I'm looking for a game that will sustain my interest long term.
Maybe simple isn't the right word exactly, but familiar lol cute
No i'm really just looking for a game where you have 200 v 200 people and you dont have people flying all over the place from KB , pulls, leaps. They are these fluff abilities that ruin my emerson into the game... maybe not yours. I don't see these abilities helping smaller groups with more organization/skill helping take on larger ones.
...They are these fluff abilities that ruin my emerson into the game... maybe not yours....
How can you maintain any sense of immersion at all while standing inside other people or running through them?
Asking for the game world to make sense is the same as asking for CD.
LOL pretty much this, a million times this ^^^^^^^^^^^
Knockbacks and Pulls kill my immersion while I'm running through people like they are ghosts / holograms while my healers hide inside the tanks..... *troll face*
Because when running into air and being told by the "game" you can't because the CD of a ghost or lagged player due to 400 people on screen is what ruins that part of emerson.
People running through each other never bothered me.
Because when running into air and being told by the "game" you can't because the CD of a ghost or lagged player due to 400 people on screen is what ruins that part of emerson.
People running through each other never bothered me.
Thats not what CD is though. That is the strawman you want to put up and argue agaisnt instead.
We've already said that if CD cannot be implemented within the engine without causing those sorts of lag effects then it shouldnt be done.
If MJ or Andrew came out and said "sorry, we arent going to be able to handle CD", then that would be the end of the discussion. But they havent done so, and you have zero evidence that CD wont work.
On our side is the entire history of technology which advances and regularly makes new things possible.
Because when running into air and being told by the "game" you can't because the CD of a ghost or lagged player due to 400 people on screen is what ruins that part of emerson.
People running through each other never bothered me.
Thats not what CD is though. That is the strawman you want to put up and argue agaisnt instead.
We've already said that if CD cannot be implemented within the engine without causing those sorts of lag effects then it shouldnt be done.
If MJ or Andrew came out and said "sorry, we arent going to be able to handle CD", then that would be the end of the discussion. But they havent done so, and you have zero evidence that CD wont work.
On our side is the entire history of technology which advances and regularly makes new things possible.
Until proven otherwise that is what CD is, I've played non CD games where there was an object that wasn't there stop you... that's dumb and annoying in itself, only escalates when moving targets are such a way.
They can't stop people from having bad computers and lagging, or internet connections lagging, CD has a very steep uphill climb to prove it can work in a system, and even if it can work you will end up losing graphics / resources / better spells things like this will have to be toned down or not as good as they could be. They are already tuning down these things to get 200v200 type battles, so we'll see how bad the graphics become going further down that rabbit hole.
CD will change how combat is approached and I have always liked the approach of no CD. Running through people never bothered me because it allowed you to play the game your way. There's no way i see to remove friendly CD issues without removing it completely, i've heard "crouching" lets you get through people as this solves people blocking things, but when you enter a keep with 200 people you'll be crouching through the entire thing ... ANNOYING. Also being able to find a spot to attack when theres 100 people on ramparts already using them is annoying, I don't want to be constantly annoyed while playing a game.
By removing CD on friendlies it solves a lot of problems, but there goes your emerson excuse again. Just doesn't solve enough with the problems you have to by-pass that are created.
They can't stop people from having bad computers and lagging, or internet connections lagging, CD has a very steep uphill climb to prove it can work in a system,
Network lag has artifacts in all games, not just games with CD. Games with CD tend to have slightly more visible results of ghosting and client/server inconsistency.
As I cited previously, my favorite example is frontal gouging in WoW. WoW had no CD. You could not use Gouge (front positional attack) on a target running forward for the first 5 years of the game (plus or minus), because of the poor latency handling in WoW (if you were too far ahead, your client would detect that you are out of range, if you were too close, the server would detect that you are behind the enemy, so there was 0 position where the attack could execute).
This network issue is the exact same issue that causes rubberbanding with CD (and many types of rubberbanding separate from CD).
E.g. this is not a CD issue; it's a netcode issue that has a unique set of problems with CD (although it has problems even without CD).
This is a similar issue to the fun "out of range" errors in WAR and in SWTOR (even though WAR had CD and SWTOR had no CD).
and even if it can work you will end up losing graphics / resources / better spells things like this will have to be toned down or not as good as they could be.
In theory, PC power in 2015 is significantly more capable than PC power in 2000, particularly when CSE is proposing a custom engine tuned to handle large-scale battles.
That aside, sure CD will have a performance impact. Considering that other MMOs have successfully implemented CD, "performance" is nowhere near an automatic showstopper for CD.
They are already tuning down these things to get 200v200 type battles, so we'll see how bad the graphics become going further down that rabbit hole.
Errr. The last tech demo IIRC had what, 600 with no occlusion / LOD / culling / etc.
You're using a rather steep slippery slope argument.
I mean, we can just lose the blur and depth of field.
CD will change how combat is approached and I have always liked the approach of no CD.
I have always liked variety in combat, and CD is another layer of tactical depth. In many situations you can virtually ignore the impact of CD in a fight. In some situations, CD becomes a significant factor. More variety = fun.
Running through people never bothered me because it allowed you to play the game your way.
I always thought that getting rear positional styles off by running through the target was lame. Instead, it takes more finesse, observation, reflex, prediction, and total skill to step smoothly around your opponent for sweet AW crits from behind.
There's no way i see to remove friendly CD issues without removing it completely,
WAR had a push-through system. Your "crouching" reference is another solution.
You are citing aspects of the system which were immature and under-developed 5 years ago. You know, 10 years ago CC had no diminishing returns. DR and immunities are one solution to the prevalence of potent CC.
All mechanics evolve. So, too, does CD evolve. My basic statement is that it has evolved sufficiently in the context of MMOs to be effective as long as CSE/CU can do adequate QA, no different than any other mechanic.
implementing CD means sacrificing some other aspect of the game....what are you willing to sacrifice?
Some server-side performance. Because that's all that's necessary to sacrifice. I do not consider the inclusion of KBs/pulls much of a sacrifice. In fact, I consider it a boon as long as they are tuned appropriately (e.g. limited).
and even if it can work you will end up losing graphics / resources / better spells things like this will have to be toned down or not as good as they could be.
In theory, PC power in 2015 is significantly more capable than PC power in 2000, particularly when CSE is proposing a custom engine tuned to handle large-scale battles.
That aside, sure CD will have a performance impact. Considering that other MMOs have successfully implemented CD, "performance" is nowhere near an automatic showstopper for CD.
That wasn't the point of what I said, doesn't matter what computers at 2015 can handle, they will be sacrificing some level of graphics to tune CD into not ruining the game with 400 people on screen.
They are already tuning down these things to get 200v200 type battles, so we'll see how bad the graphics become going further down that rabbit hole.
Errr. The last tech demo IIRC had what, 600 with no occlusion / LOD / culling / etc.
You're using a rather steep slippery slope argument.
I mean, we can just lose the blur and depth of field.
The tech demo is at a way early stage to matter in this argument, we'll see when they have everything implimented .. environment and gameplay / spells all going off at the same time.
That with CD and that without CD where the graphics need to be tuned to allow similar flow. Considering getting to that point of 200v200 you're already sacrificing a lot of graphics.
CD will change how combat is approached and I have always liked the approach of no CD.
I have always liked variety in combat, and CD is another layer of tactical depth. In many situations you can virtually ignore the impact of CD in a fight. In some situations, CD becomes a significant factor. More variety = fun.
More variety this way = more fun to you. That's fine lol I disagree. The factor of significance CD becomes is way too much in MANY situations for me to enjoy.
Running through people never bothered me because it allowed you to play the game your way.
I always thought that getting rear positional styles off by running through the target was lame. Instead, it takes more finesse, observation, reflex, prediction, and total skill to step smoothly around your opponent for sweet AW crits from behind.
Was never a fan of that either, and i'm sure there are ways around that not involving CD. Maybe forcing you to be behind your target for 1 second or something. The problem that was cause from that was simply the 9 second stun component of rear styles, the rest didn't have an effect on you. Removing stuns from those type of styles solves it too.
There's no way i see to remove friendly CD issues without removing it completely,
WAR had a push-through system. Your "crouching" reference is another solution.
You are citing aspects of the system which were immature and under-developed 5 years ago. You know, 10 years ago CC had no diminishing returns. DR and immunities are one solution to the prevalence of potent CC.
All mechanics evolve. So, too, does CD evolve. My basic statement is that it has evolved sufficiently in the context of MMOs to be effective as long as CSE/CU can do adequate QA, no different than any other mechanic.
Ok, well basically what i'm saying is I havn't seen an evolution of the mechanic that is adequate to solve the issues presented.
implementing CD means sacrificing some other aspect of the game....what are you willing to sacrifice?
Some server-side performance. Because that's all that's necessary to sacrifice. I do not consider the inclusion of KBs/pulls much of a sacrifice. In fact, I consider it a boon as long as they are tuned appropriately (e.g. limited).
I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do by designing their own engine specifically for the game, but i'm pessimistic lets say.
I do not consider the inclusion of KBs/pulls much of a sacrifice. In fact, I consider it a boon as long as they are tuned appropriately (e.g. limited).
Pulls are never done right. I don't see how anyone can sit there and talk about adding another layer to strategy, and then say that pulls (you know, the bastard brother of leaps that makes good positioning worthless and focus fire achievable by 6yr old retards) add to the game.
KB and leap are fine, since leaps are usually restricted by class and only benefit that one person as opposed to pull just making it easy for an entire team to swarm someone. KB you're already positioned horribly if it's going to hurt you.
Pulls are never done right. I don't see how anyone can sit there and talk about adding another layer to strategy, and then say that pulls (you know, the bastard brother of leaps that makes good positioning worthless and focus fire achievable by 6yr old retards) add to the game.
Lol. A pull is nothing but a stronger version of a snare or root, much like a stun is a stronger version of a silence or disarm or snare.
I consider that as long as the pull is limited, has counterplay, and does not become a predominant tactic, then it provides another tactical option. Then again, it's not like it's mandatory to augment a CD implementation, so /shrug.
I agree that it's at the cheesiest end of CCs though. It's definitely the most potent CC type implemented in a game to date. I don't mind if it's treated as such. I think the issue is when the dev doesn't respect it (much like EAMythic didn't respect the power of KBs or Diso at WAR's launch, or Mythic respected endurance regen or AOE stun at DAOC's ... or any CC at DAOC's launch, really).
Pulls are never done right. I don't see how anyone can sit there and talk about adding another layer to strategy, and then say that pulls (you know, the bastard brother of leaps that makes good positioning worthless and focus fire achievable by 6yr old retards) add to the game.
Lol. A pull is nothing but a stronger version of a snare or root, much like a stun is a stronger version of a silence or disarm or snare.
I consider that as long as the pull is limited, has counterplay, and does not become a predominant tactic, then it provides another tactical option. Then again, it's not like it's mandatory to augment a CD implementation, so /shrug.
I agree that it's at the cheesiest end of CCs though. It's definitely the most potent CC type implemented in a game to date. I don't mind if it's treated as such. I think the issue is when the dev doesn't respect it (much like EAMythic didn't respect the power of KBs or Diso at WAR's launch, or Mythic respected endurance regen or AOE stun at DAOC's ... or any CC at DAOC's launch, really).
A pull is the farthest thing from a snare or root, impeeding someones movement != transporting them.
Anything that moves you from x,y,z on the map to x,y,z on the map a distance away by a push of a button ( usually instant ) != stopping you still or slowing you down ( usually casted or positional styles ie. already in vunerable position)
Transporting CC ( as i will call them ) are all included in cheesy forms of CC and should be avoided
All snares and roots affect the opponent's position. KBs and pulls affect the opponent's position.
E.g. they're similar in terms of what tactical dynamic they affect: enemy positioning. The difference is magnitude, tactical benefits, control, etc, where pulls are the strongest and snares are the weakest.
Personally I would consider KBs and roots to be pretty close in potency. The delta would be the distance of KB and duration / persistence of the root effect.
edit: ( usually casted or positional styles ie. already in vunerable position)
This is not a useful condition for you to use for KBs, because as Odaman noted, if you are being knocked back into somewhere bad, it's probably your fault for positioning yourself poorly. Generally speaking, when the threat of knockback is present, you should position yourself so that the KB will knock you into a collision object like a pillar, or just terrain (e.g. the bridge, as opposed to the empty space).
Pulls have no detailed positional counterplay (the only positional counterplay is to GTFO of range). This means that they need other constraints (block parry dodge CC or standing channel cast being random examples).
There should be ways of avoiding pulls and knockbacks, like dodging, or resisting it, or possibly even countering it. But they can be pretty cool. I just don't think anything fun should be ruled out without atleast testing it, this is what internal testing / alpha / and in a lesser case beta are for.
I don't think knockbacks necessarily mean you're in bad position, but in truth depends on what classes have this ability and if its a 6 year olds instant spell or a castable spell And this isn't pve you won't have the opportunity to place your self to get knocked gainst a wall all day lol
If they were to add pull, they'd need friendly pull and like you said, a decent stationary cast on them (much like marauder's TE was later in war's life). At least that adds some counterplay. I don't think pull is in the same ballpark as a root though =p since those can be cleansed before the damage is done. I do think kb is pretty much on par with root because of the same reasons i listed above, otherwise roots would be more powerful.
Nothing can really be ruled out I guess, but given the track records with cc in daoc and war I'm scared what it'll look like at release.
If Collision Detection on everyone will be too taxing, I think a compromise would be to give tanks a toggable stance that grants them CD.
To counter this, maybe give melee dps some sort of slip ability that temporarily lets them move through CD (was thinking just in regards to players, but maybe on doors as well). It would need to have a fairly long cooldown though as to not defeat the purposed of tanks having Collision Detection in the first place.
I don't see why there'd ever be a need to disable CD on enemies. Nearly all games have that yet no one ever complains about it. For friendlies you probably need some sort of system since you can't kill them if they block your way, making griefing a possibility.
That doesn't mean a "slip" ability is completely out of the question. I think it could be cool to have on a class where it makes sense. A magical warrior for example who makes himself incorporeal for a short duration.
I'm not personally a fan of pull abilities, but speed or leap abilities aren't bad in my book, if properly done.
Comments
I don't think DAOC is perfect haha, was not a fan of buff shears at all game was at its best pre that change. I'm looking for a game that will sustain my interest long term.
Maybe simple isn't the right word exactly, but familiar lol cute
No i'm really just looking for a game where you have 200 v 200 people and you dont have people flying all over the place from KB , pulls, leaps. They are these fluff abilities that ruin my emerson into the game... maybe not yours. I don't see these abilities helping smaller groups with more organization/skill helping take on larger ones.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
How can you maintain any sense of immersion at all while standing inside other people or running through them?
Asking for the game world to make sense is the same as asking for CD.
LOL pretty much this, a million times this ^^^^^^^^^^^
Knockbacks and Pulls kill my immersion while I'm running through people like they are ghosts / holograms while my healers hide inside the tanks..... *troll face*
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Because when running into air and being told by the "game" you can't because the CD of a ghost or lagged player due to 400 people on screen is what ruins that part of emerson.
People running through each other never bothered me.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Thats not what CD is though. That is the strawman you want to put up and argue agaisnt instead.
We've already said that if CD cannot be implemented within the engine without causing those sorts of lag effects then it shouldnt be done.
If MJ or Andrew came out and said "sorry, we arent going to be able to handle CD", then that would be the end of the discussion. But they havent done so, and you have zero evidence that CD wont work.
On our side is the entire history of technology which advances and regularly makes new things possible.
Until proven otherwise that is what CD is, I've played non CD games where there was an object that wasn't there stop you... that's dumb and annoying in itself, only escalates when moving targets are such a way.
They can't stop people from having bad computers and lagging, or internet connections lagging, CD has a very steep uphill climb to prove it can work in a system, and even if it can work you will end up losing graphics / resources / better spells things like this will have to be toned down or not as good as they could be. They are already tuning down these things to get 200v200 type battles, so we'll see how bad the graphics become going further down that rabbit hole.
CD will change how combat is approached and I have always liked the approach of no CD. Running through people never bothered me because it allowed you to play the game your way. There's no way i see to remove friendly CD issues without removing it completely, i've heard "crouching" lets you get through people as this solves people blocking things, but when you enter a keep with 200 people you'll be crouching through the entire thing ... ANNOYING. Also being able to find a spot to attack when theres 100 people on ramparts already using them is annoying, I don't want to be constantly annoyed while playing a game.
By removing CD on friendlies it solves a lot of problems, but there goes your emerson excuse again. Just doesn't solve enough with the problems you have to by-pass that are created.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Killing dragons is my shit
Not so big a fan of CD, but I'll take that before KB, pulls and leaps.....that was horrible.
implementing CD means sacrificing some other aspect of the game....what are you willing to sacrifice?
They can't stop people from having bad computers and lagging, or internet connections lagging, CD has a very steep uphill climb to prove it can work in a system,
Network lag has artifacts in all games, not just games with CD. Games with CD tend to have slightly more visible results of ghosting and client/server inconsistency.
As I cited previously, my favorite example is frontal gouging in WoW. WoW had no CD. You could not use Gouge (front positional attack) on a target running forward for the first 5 years of the game (plus or minus), because of the poor latency handling in WoW (if you were too far ahead, your client would detect that you are out of range, if you were too close, the server would detect that you are behind the enemy, so there was 0 position where the attack could execute).
This network issue is the exact same issue that causes rubberbanding with CD (and many types of rubberbanding separate from CD).
E.g. this is not a CD issue; it's a netcode issue that has a unique set of problems with CD (although it has problems even without CD).
This is a similar issue to the fun "out of range" errors in WAR and in SWTOR (even though WAR had CD and SWTOR had no CD).
and even if it can work you will end up losing graphics / resources / better spells things like this will have to be toned down or not as good as they could be.
In theory, PC power in 2015 is significantly more capable than PC power in 2000, particularly when CSE is proposing a custom engine tuned to handle large-scale battles.
That aside, sure CD will have a performance impact. Considering that other MMOs have successfully implemented CD, "performance" is nowhere near an automatic showstopper for CD.
They are already tuning down these things to get 200v200 type battles, so we'll see how bad the graphics become going further down that rabbit hole.
Errr. The last tech demo IIRC had what, 600 with no occlusion / LOD / culling / etc.
You're using a rather steep slippery slope argument.
I mean, we can just lose the blur and depth of field.
CD will change how combat is approached and I have always liked the approach of no CD.
I have always liked variety in combat, and CD is another layer of tactical depth. In many situations you can virtually ignore the impact of CD in a fight. In some situations, CD becomes a significant factor. More variety = fun.
Running through people never bothered me because it allowed you to play the game your way.
I always thought that getting rear positional styles off by running through the target was lame. Instead, it takes more finesse, observation, reflex, prediction, and total skill to step smoothly around your opponent for sweet AW crits from behind.
There's no way i see to remove friendly CD issues without removing it completely,
WAR had a push-through system. Your "crouching" reference is another solution.
You are citing aspects of the system which were immature and under-developed 5 years ago. You know, 10 years ago CC had no diminishing returns. DR and immunities are one solution to the prevalence of potent CC.
All mechanics evolve. So, too, does CD evolve. My basic statement is that it has evolved sufficiently in the context of MMOs to be effective as long as CSE/CU can do adequate QA, no different than any other mechanic.
implementing CD means sacrificing some other aspect of the game....what are you willing to sacrifice?
Some server-side performance. Because that's all that's necessary to sacrifice. I do not consider the inclusion of KBs/pulls much of a sacrifice. In fact, I consider it a boon as long as they are tuned appropriately (e.g. limited).
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Pulls are never done right. I don't see how anyone can sit there and talk about adding another layer to strategy, and then say that pulls (you know, the bastard brother of leaps that makes good positioning worthless and focus fire achievable by 6yr old retards) add to the game.
KB and leap are fine, since leaps are usually restricted by class and only benefit that one person as opposed to pull just making it easy for an entire team to swarm someone. KB you're already positioned horribly if it's going to hurt you.
Pulls are never done right. I don't see how anyone can sit there and talk about adding another layer to strategy, and then say that pulls (you know, the bastard brother of leaps that makes good positioning worthless and focus fire achievable by 6yr old retards) add to the game.
Lol. A pull is nothing but a stronger version of a snare or root, much like a stun is a stronger version of a silence or disarm or snare.
I consider that as long as the pull is limited, has counterplay, and does not become a predominant tactic, then it provides another tactical option. Then again, it's not like it's mandatory to augment a CD implementation, so /shrug.
I agree that it's at the cheesiest end of CCs though. It's definitely the most potent CC type implemented in a game to date. I don't mind if it's treated as such. I think the issue is when the dev doesn't respect it (much like EAMythic didn't respect the power of KBs or Diso at WAR's launch, or Mythic respected endurance regen or AOE stun at DAOC's ... or any CC at DAOC's launch, really).
A pull is the farthest thing from a snare or root, impeeding someones movement != transporting them.
Anything that moves you from x,y,z on the map to x,y,z on the map a distance away by a push of a button ( usually instant ) != stopping you still or slowing you down ( usually casted or positional styles ie. already in vunerable position)
Transporting CC ( as i will call them ) are all included in cheesy forms of CC and should be avoided
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
All snares and roots affect the opponent's position. KBs and pulls affect the opponent's position.
E.g. they're similar in terms of what tactical dynamic they affect: enemy positioning. The difference is magnitude, tactical benefits, control, etc, where pulls are the strongest and snares are the weakest.
Personally I would consider KBs and roots to be pretty close in potency. The delta would be the distance of KB and duration / persistence of the root effect.
edit: ( usually casted or positional styles ie. already in vunerable position)
This is not a useful condition for you to use for KBs, because as Odaman noted, if you are being knocked back into somewhere bad, it's probably your fault for positioning yourself poorly. Generally speaking, when the threat of knockback is present, you should position yourself so that the KB will knock you into a collision object like a pillar, or just terrain (e.g. the bridge, as opposed to the empty space).
Pulls have no detailed positional counterplay (the only positional counterplay is to GTFO of range). This means that they need other constraints (block parry dodge CC or standing channel cast being random examples).
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And this isn't pve you won't have the opportunity to place your self to get knocked gainst a wall all day lol
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
If they were to add pull, they'd need friendly pull and like you said, a decent stationary cast on them (much like marauder's TE was later in war's life). At least that adds some counterplay. I don't think pull is in the same ballpark as a root though =p since those can be cleansed before the damage is done. I do think kb is pretty much on par with root because of the same reasons i listed above, otherwise roots would be more powerful.
Nothing can really be ruled out I guess, but given the track records with cc in daoc and war I'm scared what it'll look like at release.
If Collision Detection on everyone will be too taxing, I think a compromise would be to give tanks a toggable stance that grants them CD.
To counter this, maybe give melee dps some sort of slip ability that temporarily lets them move through CD (was thinking just in regards to players, but maybe on doors as well). It would need to have a fairly long cooldown though as to not defeat the purposed of tanks having Collision Detection in the first place.
I don't see why there'd ever be a need to disable CD on enemies. Nearly all games have that yet no one ever complains about it. For friendlies you probably need some sort of system since you can't kill them if they block your way, making griefing a possibility.
That doesn't mean a "slip" ability is completely out of the question. I think it could be cool to have on a class where it makes sense. A magical warrior for example who makes himself incorporeal for a short duration.
I'm not personally a fan of pull abilities, but speed or leap abilities aren't bad in my book, if properly done.