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Originally posted by Rusque Originally posted by will75 So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now? While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article. Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back. SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you. Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.
What I read was that gamers have changed, and regardless of whether or not the game is funded and well received, chances are slim that anyone will recapture that old feeling. People interact differently online than the used to, even within the same game.
That era of shared newness may never happen again. Mmos aren't unexplored territory anymore, people know hw to approach them and how to dissect them.
But you never know and we might all be surprised, we'll see
Thats what I got out of it also. I guess everyone interprets things differently.
We'll see how good this Camelot game really is if it releases. So, only a few years to wait! In the meantime, many other quality MMOs will come out with free trials and actual reviews so that people can try before they throw money and reason to the wind.
"Where do you see yourself in five years?"
"Logging into Camelot Unchained at its release!"
"The job position has been filled, I'm sorry."
AsRock Z710 Extreme7+ motherboardIntel i7-6700K Skylake 4.0 GHz processor8 GB DDR4 3600 mhz RAMSamsung 850 Evo 2.5" SSDSamsung 950 Pro M.2 SSDHaf X caseTwo MSI 980 Ti GPUs in SLIThree 30" U3011 monitors at 7680x1600 resolution in SurroundAn additional 27" Dell 4K monitorBasically my gaming rig is made of moneyEl Psy Congroo
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
First, no worries. You admitted your mistake (5 vs 3) and I will happily reciprocate (within my usual "don't throw people under the bus").
Originally WAR did have a three-faction system in my vision document. We changed that to two factions due to certain issues (financial being one of them). It was a terrible mistake and since I was the head of the studio at that time, no matter what the reasons, I accept responsibility for that one. If I could take it back, I would but please know it wasn't due to "Three faction RvR, unthinkable!"
Thanks again for being willing to listen.
Yeah I remember being so excited for WAR having three faction RvR. Sucked when I found out it wouldn't have it.
Regardless, it's great that you're taking out of your time to post here, present some facts and interact with the playerbase. It's very rare, and I wish more developers would follow-suit and speak up for themselves, considering how much BS gets thrown around in their name.
I, for one, am seriously looking forward to CU. I'm one of that "older crowd" that remembers and appreciates the way MMOs used to be (no rose-colored glasses here), having been weened on MMOs like Anarchy Online, Shadowbane, DAoC and FFXI.
I read your series of articles on the site, the Foundational Principles (or something like that lol) and I must sound ridiculous to anyone who can hear me as I find myself saying "yes!", "exactly!", "finally! someone who gets it!" and the like.
Who knows what the future will hold for CU and I maintain a degree of hopeful-but-cautious optimism for it.. Regardless, it's great to see someone stepping up, focusing on a target market, eschewing so many of the so-called "modern standards" people have come to expect and rely on in title after title, and going back to the genre's roots.
I'd all but given up on MMORPGs after seeing the turn FFXIV: ARR is taking. Yours, and a couple other projects, have renewed my hope a bit. It seems to me as though the veterans of the gaming industry (MMO and otherwise) are stepping up to take back the genre you/they helped to define. Damn good thing, too. This genre needs some serious help.
If this game actually does fail, then that would mean that the type of games I and many others have been waiting for just arent going to happen.
This small studio is taking a risk, betting everything on us, the players. The rest of the industry has shifted to the "mainstream", making clones of clones of clones of simplified mindless "entertainment".
If we as players cant even support a single niche game then its all over. If CU fails, we've failed.
For me at least, Im pretty sure this will be the last MMO for me if it doesnt work out.
Originally posted by Taldier If we as players cant even support a single niche game then its all over. If CU fails, we've failed. For me at least, Im pretty sure this will be the last MMO for me if it doesnt work out.
No it doesn't. It means either there isn't a real market for this type of game like some think or that the marketing of the concept itself was horrid. Niche games can be made and supported. Did anyone really think that InIxile would get almost 4.5 million dollars for Torment? There are several things working against this game:
1. Regardless what some think Warhammer was an overall fiasco and is still fresh in many people's mind. Yeah...yeah...I know...it was all EA's fault. -_-
2. DAOC was not as popular and well received as some around here seem to think. Not bashing the game but I know plenty of mmo players that don't even know what the hell that game was. Think what you want of them but the point remains. Some will say so what? Well my response would be apparently you need to appeal to some of those folks considering the funding wanted and how it is turning out.
3. Their efforts to market the KS so far have been forgettable and rather lazy. I've seen more effort put forth by people that supported the KS for god's sake.
4. You just had several KS complete for other games that some who would have invested in this game spent their money elsewhere. Really bad timing.
5. Two fucking million? What? Should have had a lower threshold and offered tiers for what would be added, fleshed out, etc. as they reached additional goal levels after getting the project funded. Said it before and I will say it again if they had done that they would have ended up with more money. I would even be willing to say they would have gone well over two million at that point.
TL:DR: This failing (if it does) proves nothing. There are several reasons this project may not get funded or turn out the way people want. Other projects have already proven that using a tool like KS will bring out the supporters if they feel it is worthwhile and promising.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Yup agree, that just about sums up why ppl r usually whining on these forums.
There cannot be a one game suits all, in my view niche b2p games would dominate the mmo industry.
Originally posted by Tayah If the article were written by someone that had played the early years of Ultima Online/Asheron's Call/DAOC/EQ I could take their point of view. The author seems a bit young and has probably been playing or writing about mmo's since WoW came out maybe? The article to me, comes off as if telling the veteran mmorpg'ers to move on and get with the WoW clone mmo's grind program and deal with it. It seems the author is quite fine with mediocre mmorpg's, we veteran Mmorpg'ers, however, are NOT ok with mediocrity. What's funny is you can go even now and look at DAOC or Asheron's Call or Ultima Online, even as old as they are, how the worlds feel alive, and there's so much to do in them without having the ! npc quest grinds. There's more content in those games and more innovation than most of today's mmorpg's. The communities in those games were wonderful before the games aged away. Community and fun is what I seek, and you cannot have that with the larger mmo's these days, they're all WoW clones looking for hundreds of thousands to millions of players. There's no way for people to really get to know each other and enjoy their playtime in mmo's anymore. Today's mmo's feel like a second job when you log in. You log in, do dailies, que up for dungeon dailies with random people, barely even speak the whole time, finish your dailies, and you're done for the day. I'm looking for community and fun, not a second job.
So much nostalgia talk that it actually took over your perception of reality...
The thing about Daoc was it was the last time true community really happened in MMO's after they got greedy an chased the wow ideal with Toa, the community fell apart because it was no longer the oldschool Daoc.
I REally hope they dont try it again. TOA was one of the most desasterous failures in MMO gaming, to rival SOE's screwup over SWG. I can only hope for CE that they dont get stupid an try to clone wow again, because all mmos have odne it, an each an everyone has been a joke, of simplisitic 5 year style gaming.
AC1 an Daoc, an even Vanguard in a way were the last time real MMO's were made, thye all had risk, they all had reward, an conciquence for your actions, nothing happened instantly shinys didnt rain from heaven jsut for logging in. But I dread to think how badly this will go if they think wow is the pinicle of gaming, because to many, it is the bottom of the barrel.
Originally posted by Edany I would like to personally thank the author for letting me that the gaming world has 'moved on'. Yes, I am aware of that. Painfully, excruciatingly all too aware. The MMORPG genre has 'moved on' to: single player quest leveling daily quest grinding gear grinding / token of the day grinding random group and dungeon finders zero tools for the community to hold ass-hats accountable zero incentive for grouping repetitive scripted PvE encounters tacked on and lackluster instanced 5 minute 'scenarios' for PvP unimaginative mirrored classes balancing RvR / PvP to the scripted PvE encounters The list of trite bullshit offered by the developers that have 'moved on' goes on and on and on. And with each iteration, the quality of both game and player have suffered tremendously for it. The reality of it is, the 'old-school DAoC' community has never died, and it has never gone away. It is as vibrant as it ever was, and you can witness that just by the amount of community fan-sites, message boards, and even by the growing community of backers being developed on the Kickstarter page itself. Implying that having that sense of community and Realm Pride again is a pipe dream because the genre has 'moved on' is pedantic at best. It isn't that these things do not or can not exisit again in the genre, it is that the genre has spent the last 10 years taking away the tools that the community used to foster that Realm Pride by giving us the trash of today's MMORPGs I listed above. I'm glad you enjoyed DAoC's PvE, however, it seems that by admittedly focusing on that aspect of the game and staying off of the 'front-lines' you missed a lot of what DAoC offered while still managing to have fun and feel that you were contributing. Not many of today's MMOs can provide you with that. They haven't come close. This is not DAoC. This is not DAoC 2. This is a place where a developer finally has the balls to let go of my hand while I cross the road with a group of my like-minded friends. It just so happens that the developer who introduced us to Realm Pride and RvR is the developer who is potentially offering all of us old-fucks an MMO home again - and thank God.
So true! Gos down like a poem :-)
-Massive-Industries- Heavy Duty
Originally posted by BeggarKing There's about seven and a half thousand ppl who disagree and I suspect many more are waiting before jumping aboard, I would guess about 10k by the end of KS. I don't mind paying £10 a month to play so x10 by 10,000 a month and I think the game will scrape by somehow
That is great, YOU think the game will scrape by with 10k subs, the thing is, MJ has already stated the number he is looking for is at least 50k.
Less than 10k backers just now on KS, MJ has told backers multiple times not to increase the amount they have pledged, and the reason for that is simple, it is not just 2 million in cash MJ is looking for, he is also looking at how many people are backing it, because he needs at least 50k players for this niche game to make a profit.
So even if the funding goal is reached, the future of CU will still be in doubt.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
I am not saying she is lying, but she looks a bit young to have started with DAOC, maybe in her mid teeens?
“PlanetSide 2 does this, but does that game offer immersive community within? That’s debatable.”
No it does not, but then if you can get one thing right, and do it well that’s a plus in my book.
“In other words, maybe vets are so starved for that meaningful RvR, interdependence, and a sense of real player impact that hope generated hype is too high.”
My thoughts exactly, I have been posting to that effect every time we get a new KS old school MMO article. Hope is fueling this, we need to be realistic.
I do not think it is a question of moving on, it is a question of what makes for the best kind of gameplay in a MMO? For me it is a hybrid between old and new gameplay.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
The world has moved on, OR, Maybe you kids should realize that not every game is going to be made for you.
A game does not need PvE to have a good community. PvErs do not have the monopoly on community building. Just becasue a design method was used in the past doesn't mean it's not valid for the present. Especially if it was enjoyed by a significant segemnt of the population.
It seems at times most of you "young" ones, those who weren't around to play the first generation MMOs at launch, are quick to dismiss anything that seems "hard, tedious," or that you just don't understand and also negatively label it. Nostalgia used to be a pleasant word yet forums like these have turn it into one of the most negative.
Kudos to MJ and all the old school guys making games on KS. Keep it up. Those fan bases that supported you then will yet support you again. Keep making games in those old school ways that provides long days of replayable entertainment as opposed to the modern version of making it easy so the kiddos don't cry, finish it with least resistance and be ready next month to buy the sequel.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0
Originally posted by Khalathwyr The world has moved on, OR, Maybe you kids should realize that not every game is going to be made for you. A game does not need PvE to have a good community. PvErs do not have the monopoly on community building. Just becasue a design method was used in the past doesn't mean it's not valid for the present. Especially if it was enjoyed by a significant segemnt of the population. It seems at times most of you "young" ones, those who weren't around to play the first generation MMOs at launch, are quick to dismiss anything that seems "hard, tedious," or that you just don't understand and also negatively label it. Nostalgia used to be a pleasant word yet forums like these have turn it into one of the most negative. Kudos to MJ and all the old school guys making games on KS. Keep it up. Those fan bases that supported you then will yet support you again. Keep making games in those old school ways that provides long days of replayable entertainment as opposed to the modern version of making it easy so the kiddos don't cry, finish it with least resistance and be ready next month to buy the sequel.
Kind of amusing how often the "kiddy" card gets thrown around in reference to this subject matter. You should call them Mister Poopy Pants too. That will really show 'em.
Originally posted by MarkJacobs Originally posted by JeroKane Originally posted by will75 So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now? While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article. Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back. SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you. Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.
Because Mark Jacobs doesn't deserve my money.
He had his chance with one of the largest IP's in the world. Warhammer. And screwed up beyond any words!
Just like Richard Garriott doesn't deserve my money either.
Both of these over-inflated EGO trippers had a huge studio under their bumbs, plenty of great talent at their finger tips and over 40 million US dollars in funding and more than enough time (5+ years)!
They had all the ingredients they needed to make a great game! (Warhammer Online and Tabula Rasa) and screwed it up BIG TIME!
Same thing with Bioware and SW:TOR! They had the largest budget ever! They had a huge amount of talent at their disposal! They had plenty of time (5+ years)! And screwed up BIG TIME!
Publishers, in this case EA and NCSoft, had nothing to do with these debacles, as they gave them enough money and enough time to deliver the product.
It's not like they had to rush it to market within 2 years, like ATARI forced Cryptic to with CO and STO.
So please explain to me why this time it would be any different with Mr. Jacobs and Mr.Garriott?
I cannot believe how short of memory people have these days.
I know it's always easy to portray publishers as the BIG BAD WOLF these days. And in case of EA it's sadly often true lately!
But for the above, EA and NCSoft were sertainly not to blame. Sorry, but that is just very naive.
Actually, we had three years. We signed the license deal for Warhammer at E3 June 2005, released in September 2008. Plus, the original development timeline for WAR was 2 years and we had two delays and I had to fight to get it to 3 years.
Why was the timeline so low? Who did you have to fight with to delay the game?
Originally posted by Thane it's not hope, it's faith. there is a difference
It's more like desperation, not hope nor faith.
it's simple economics folks. supply & demand.
this kickstarter is weighing the demand for this, becuase currently there is no real supply for a game like this
if the demand is there, he will supply it. if not, then not.
he's always said it will be a niche though. so no illusions there.
this game would actually work better with a smaller tighter knit community, instead of a f2p 99% of players don't care about the social side of game lol
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOCTuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
Originally posted by Wickedjelly Originally posted by Khalathwyr The world has moved on, OR, Maybe you kids should realize that not every game is going to be made for you. A game does not need PvE to have a good community. PvErs do not have the monopoly on community building. Just becasue a design method was used in the past doesn't mean it's not valid for the present. Especially if it was enjoyed by a significant segemnt of the population. It seems at times most of you "young" ones, those who weren't around to play the first generation MMOs at launch, are quick to dismiss anything that seems "hard, tedious," or that you just don't understand and also negatively label it. Nostalgia used to be a pleasant word yet forums like these have turn it into one of the most negative. Kudos to MJ and all the old school guys making games on KS. Keep it up. Those fan bases that supported you then will yet support you again. Keep making games in those old school ways that provides long days of replayable entertainment as opposed to the modern version of making it easy so the kiddos don't cry, finish it with least resistance and be ready next month to buy the sequel.
Nah, I save Mister Poopy Pants for when I really get going. :P Anyway, I know how old I am (mid 30s) and I'd wager there are a larger number of teenager to early 20s people here. Kids in my view.
I feels like these two great game makers are fighting back from being put out to pasture. They still have the same great minds that put us in Luv with their games, but we have changed a Lot from those days, even though we may not realize it.
For me personaly the Warhammer game and Tabula Rasa Games were a blast to play at first .. I was even involved a little while in Beta for Tabula Rasa. Those two games blew me away until Release and Major Overhaul changes made to the FEEL and PLAY of the game.
The changes to both games were so wide sweeping and so deeply Cutting into what was FUN in the game that players just could not contend with the changes. New Players who had heard about how FUN the games were, Joined a game that had been fundamentaly changed, and of course, found it NOT FUN at all .. or only slightly fun.
There will always be parts of a new game that needs attention after release .. but to make Huge sweeping changes to the Play and FEEL of a game weeks after Release is just asking to have the player base Blown Up. Those types of changes are what alpha and beta should be for ..
It slaps the face of the gamer who spent good money on a game based on feed back and hype from many sources about how fun and cool a game was to then have it fundamentaly change right under their nose weeks later. Our ONLY recourse is to walk away and pull our support for the game .. AS NO amount of Talking on the games offical forum will have any major impact on the game at that Point. WE TRIED .. and were basically told .. Like it or Lump it ...
WE LUMPED ... and Humped, and RAN away as fast as we could. Imagine that ? The game fell ro ruin shortly after >? NOW go figure .. hmmmm ...
Then the game company has the audacity to Ask WHAT WENT WRONG ??? Fickle gamers .. never happy with all we have worked on .. blah blah blah .. Interseting to note that neither of those two games I mention ( and there have been others) Ever >>> EVER >.... EVER went back and put the game as it was before the big exodus ... it is only AFTER ...LONG after they they even think to try and make some type of improvement .. but by that time the damage is done and not reversable.
I will give you a good example .. Final Fantasy 14 .. YEP .. you all know that game right ? From what I am seeing of the NEW REmake of the game they still have not GOT a clue as to why people hated that game .. I still see aspects, and lots of them, in the game that DID NOT work for hundreds of thousands of players .. but THEY are still IN the Remake of the game .. SHEESH ...
So I guess Good luck to you both .. I have loved and hated you both for your games .. But I will always have a spot in my heart for the GOOD times and do not hold a grudge for the BAD. I really should thank you both for it was thru playing Tabula and Warhammer that I learned to Wait a few months before Buying into any new game ...
OH.... also FF14 is in that same catagory .. YIPES that game burned me bad when it launched. I spent a week just trying to get out of the city and Never Did get anyone To Reply to any of my messages .. global or local or private .. what a piece of work that game was.
I ramble on ... Time to move along I guess and watch for the next Great game to hit the market. Good luck with your new games .. From what I have read and seen I fear they are going to be only shadows of former glory. Sorry, but it is what I see.
Look to the stars to know HE is with us. HE hung them as markers, of times and of seasons.
Let me start this by addressing one of the ongoing threads about age. This isn't an age thing anymore, it's interest and what each person wants out of a game. I'm 52 years old Grandmother, and I'll take any of you youngens PVP/RVR anytime. Just because I is old don't mean I don't Pwn, you wippersnapperz. With that said LOL
When I was told about Camelot Unchained and then read that Mark was going to be at the helm I was totally excited. I was one of the original Player and Guild Beta testers for DAOC and I have yet to find a game that I love as much as I did this game.
For me it was/is Siege. OMFG 9 hour 3-way sieges were unbelievable. They were totally exhausting but fun as hell. The alarm going off a 2 am because another realm was attempting to capture one of your relics? And see 100’s of your realm mates run out to help. Or how many of you set up supply bots out in the enemy frontiers stocking up for your own realm's attack at the emeny relics, and trying to be sneaky about it so they wouldn’t get a clue?
The RvR in DAOC kept the community together. The teamwork not to forget the mechanics involved in siege and defending has not been duplicated in any game since. When Warhammer came out and they said they were going to have siege, I was hopeful but greatly disappointed. So for too many years I have been settling for the mundane grinding and ever so boring PVP in WoW. I can’t wait to see what this team comes up with. SAVE ME!!!
Best thing Jacobs could do is just modernize the current DAOC system. And by that I mean update the engine, networking, graphics, and interface. Other than that, dont touch anything else. Warhammer could have done this but it decided to change the way RvR is fought and of course go to a two realm fight.
Sure DAOC had its problems. The worst two was class balance and of course the increase focus on PvE which just tore away from the real game which was suppose to be RvR.