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It's easy to see now why/how MMOs have got so bad.

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Comments

  • EllyaEllya leylandPosts: 99Member
    Originally posted by BaltoBro
    promises of a game that's it's not even in alpha; wait until it's released becasue chances are that some promises may be broken; I can see people getting bored fast with the RvR and then asking for PvE 6 months after release.

    Basically, they don't have the resources or budget to make both pve and rvr/pvp great at the beginning.

    Therefore, they choose to concentrate on one thing and make it great. 

    Lessons learnt from the ToA expansion in DAoC will mean that he will never again force people to do PvE in order to compete in RvR.  However, PVE for PVE'ers and RvR for RvR'ers may well be in a couple of years down the line.

    I don't think I've read anything that says he's ruled it out forever.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by EasymodeX
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by EasymodeX
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    But why?

    If I like a game but see there are game play elements that are not to my taste then "the game isn't for me".

    I tend not to stay with sci-fi games or post apocalyptic anything so "those games are not for me".

    Luckily, CU is an RvR game focused on RvR.

    Therefore it's a game for me.

     

    Even if no-AH sounds like a pretty lame / illogical idea.

    Your flippant "the game isn't for you" is simply your expression for "I have no idea how to argue something, and he said something that isn't 100% CU fanboy support, so I'll just tell him to F off in as many words".

     So if you are going to purchase the game, then they have  your money and therefore don't need to add an AH.

    [mod edit]

    Well, yes and no. Camelot Unchained is a niche game and no, MJ isn't going to cater to everyones needs simply because they think if they pledge $5 or even $500. The game already has a vision, if you like it, than pledge your support. If you don't like the game's direction, don't pledge and don't complain, it's quite simple. I'm tired of MMO's lately because publishers ruin them cause men in suits don't care about whats fun. They only care about what makes them tons of money. MJ is making a niche game, to fill that RvR desire a lot of us old DAoC fans are missing. TESO is going to try and copy that ideal, much like GW2 tried, but GW2 failed miserably. GW2 tried to make a PvE game with WvW thrown in half-arsed. I don't know enough about TESO to know if it will succeed or fail. All I know is, TESO is an IP and they are doing a horrible job of immitating it. TESO is nothing like the original series, so basically, they just lost most of their persepctive playerbase.

    Anyhow, off track. CU is a niche game, ideas are still in the works, but some ideas will not be followed as their are certain concrete decisions that MJ has incorporated that he will not use or follow. So, pledging $500 or more is not going to convince him to change his mind.

    image

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by WellzyC

    This is a niche MMO, the rules were laid out, and the vision was shared.

    But this got really popular really fast, and just looking at this forum alone you can see the influx of post wow era mmoers, who just started playing mmos after 2010  because their Xbox was getting old...are just complaining up a storm about this and that..

    I want fast travel,

    I want an action house,

    I want dungeon finders, loot drops,  tokens and quest, solo story lines,  pretty much everyting that the kids who play assasins creed and black ops want. Tons of shallow scripted content and anti community systems that dont belong in MMOS.

    It is soo easy to see how the devs that just want to sell copies can get sucked into this casual player crap. Becasue it just staggers me the amount of people who want an MMO to be just a socially shallow crapshoot.

    MJ is a G*d damn savior..  Stick to your guns sir.

    I'm pretty old school having started with Lineage, but I still want a lot of the features on your list.  Those items don't largely conflict with early design because most of that was available in early games.

    Lineage had fast travel, player shops and bulletin boards in town to advertise.  It had loot drops, a back story, and a bunch of other convenient features.

    I don't think there are enough players to support your vision of makes an mmo good.   I guess I don't think mmos have "gotten bad" or suck now.  Overall they've improved a lot in the last 10 to 15 years.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by EasymodeX
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    But why?

    If I like a game but see there are game play elements that are not to my taste then "the game isn't for me".

    I tend not to stay with sci-fi games or post apocalyptic anything so "those games are not for me".

    Luckily, CU is an RvR game focused on RvR.

    Therefore it's a game for me.

     

    Even if no-AH sounds like a pretty lame / illogical idea.

    Your flippant "the game isn't for you" is simply your expression for "I have no idea how to argue something, and he said something that isn't 100% CU fanboy support, so I'll just tell him to F off in as many words".

    newsflash einstein, the world is a bit bigger than you can imagine. Not everyone is an cynical as you seem to be.

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon

    OP is correct, people seem to freak out when they are told they can't have something even though the game is niche.

    All the screaming about AH and whatnot is moot because it won't be in the game.

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member Common

    "Give me the most generic game imaginable!" That's what most people want. Not EVERY game should have an AH, instant travel, etc........ It's OK to be different.

     

    Edit: If MMOs get any more generic I'm going to die.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by WellzyC

     

    This is a niche MMO, the rules were laid out, and the vision was shared.

     

    But this got really popular really fast, and just looking at this forum alone you can see the influx of post wow era mmoers, who just started playing mmos after 2010  because their Xbox was getting old...are just complaining up a storm about this and that..

    I want fast travel,

    I want an action house,

    I want dungeon finders, loot drops,  tokens and quest, solo story lines,  pretty much everyting that the kids who play assasins creed and black ops want. Tons of shallow scripted content and anti community systems that dont belong in MMOS.

     

    It is soo easy to see how the devs that just want to sell copies can get sucked into this casual player crap. Becasue it just staggers me the amount of people who want an MMO to be just a socially shallow crapshoot.

     

    MJ is a G*d damn savior..  Stick to your guns sir.

    Flaboodeeflee! Back in my day we used to game uphill BOTH WAYS!

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • tleartlear Toronto, ONPosts: 142Member

    If this does not fund we are so fucked

  • sk8chalifsk8chalif Montreal, QCPosts: 599Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tlear

    If this does not fund we are so fucked

    i wish that the game get fund. but looking at the kickstarter page and how many days left and the money that they still need. .. hmm i don't think so.

    image
    ~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member Common
    Originally posted by sk8chalif
    Originally posted by tlear

    If this does not fund we are so fucked

    i wish that the game get fund. but looking at the kickstarter page and how many days left and the money that they still need. .. hmm i don't think so.

    If I could get my 60K back from the casino I would give it to this game.

  • sk8chalifsk8chalif Montreal, QCPosts: 599Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Magiknight
    Originally posted by sk8chalif
    Originally posted by tlear

    If this does not fund we are so fucked

    i wish that the game get fund. but looking at the kickstarter page and how many days left and the money that they still need. .. hmm i don't think so.

    If I could get my 60K back from the casino I would give it to this game.

    ouch !!!

    image
    ~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~

  • usuckmmorpgcomusuckmmorpgcom c, KYPosts: 1,348Member
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    I have to agree with EasymodeX. His points are well made. It's a sad reflection on the CU community when the responses he gets are "this game isn't for you."

    "This game isn't for you" is the new derp.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by sk8chalif
    Originally posted by tlear

    If this does not fund we are so fucked

    i wish that the game get fund. but looking at the kickstarter page and how many days left and the money that they still need. .. hmm i don't think so.

    Don't worry, we only need to raise our pledge by about 100$ per person. Hmm warrior forever tier looks fine aswell.

  • will75will75 Fatalis,The Combine, SoB... Semi retired, waiting for next big thing.., FLPosts: 353Member

    I think the term this game isn't for you is fine, and fits... I mean if i wanted to play a FFA pvp game. And someone who lives and dies on WoW raiding... is asked to back CU and asks where's the pve? The term... this game isn't for you fits perfectly.

     

    There is no pve in this game.If you enjoy fighting scripted events, this game isn't for you. If you enjoy fighting another entity that has it's own mind and can make decisions on the fly that aren't pre written.This game's for you. It's that simple .

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by WellzyC

     

    This is a niche MMO, the rules were laid out, and the vision was shared.

     

    But this got really popular really fast, and just looking at this forum alone you can see the influx of post wow era mmoers, who just started playing mmos after 2010  because their Xbox was getting old...are just complaining up a storm about this and that..

    I want fast travel,

    I want an action house,

    I want dungeon finders, loot drops,  tokens and quest, solo story lines,  pretty much everyting that the kids who play assasins creed and black ops want. Tons of shallow scripted content and anti community systems that dont belong in MMOS.

     

    It is soo easy to see how the devs that just want to sell copies can get sucked into this casual player crap. Becasue it just staggers me the amount of people who want an MMO to be just a socially shallow crapshoot.

     

    MJ is a G*d damn savior..  Stick to your guns sir.

     It's good to hear someone is saying they're going  to change the MMO mindest. However, I'd like to see it to believe it. It's one thing to say (as a developer) that these are the issues. Than to actually do them with the game itself.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by topographic

    Originally posted by GreenHell I have to agree with EasymodeX. His points are well made. It's a sad reflection on the CU community when the responses he gets are "this game isn't for you."
    "This game isn't for you" is the new derp.

    Even if it's true? I mean really, CU isn't the entire MMO market. It's one game. It can't be for everyone. It would not be surprising if some of the people the game is not for are here on these forums, posting about the game.

    Why is the assumption that the game must change, to please the people who don't like it rather than those people just find something else to play? If the game doesn't attract enough people, it will die. This is how things should be. It's the only way to explore new territory in MMOs so that new and possibly better game mechanics can get implemented.

    **

    Alternatively, if the game attracts enough people and thrives, then some better game mechanics have been found. Didn't mean to imply that the game would fail.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • will75will75 Fatalis,The Combine, SoB... Semi retired, waiting for next big thing.., FLPosts: 353Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by WellzyC

     

    This is a niche MMO, the rules were laid out, and the vision was shared.

     

    But this got really popular really fast, and just looking at this forum alone you can see the influx of post wow era mmoers, who just started playing mmos after 2010  because their Xbox was getting old...are just complaining up a storm about this and that..

    I want fast travel,

    I want an action house,

    I want dungeon finders, loot drops,  tokens and quest, solo story lines,  pretty much everyting that the kids who play assasins creed and black ops want. Tons of shallow scripted content and anti community systems that dont belong in MMOS.

     

    It is soo easy to see how the devs that just want to sell copies can get sucked into this casual player crap. Becasue it just staggers me the amount of people who want an MMO to be just a socially shallow crapshoot.

     

    MJ is a G*d damn savior..  Stick to your guns sir.

     It's good to hear someone is saying they're going  to change the MMO mindest. However, I'd like to see it to believe it. It's one thing to say (as a developer) that these are the issues. Than to actually do them with the game itself.

    Out of curiosity, what other developer has said they want to change things? People scream up and down on the forums how they hate the current mmo's... and the clones of wow. Then a dev wants to do something different and is met with opposition from a vocal few.

    The way the anger over CU getting the hype that it is, reminds me of when PVE people used to tell the FFA pvp crowd that if they want that, they should get their own server...And then when they make a post about wanting one, it's filled with PVE people saying how stupid and waste of resources it would be. If something doesn't effect you, why do you care? Just to be a dick? I'm not saying you, but speaking in general. heh

    Haters gonna hate. That's all that can be said.

     

    Mark is like the yankees, no matter how successful he/they are , people still will hate him/them because it's the cool thing to do. And making someone else feel bad makes them feel good.

     

    low self esteem trolls :(

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by EasymodeX

    I want an action house,

    I started playing MMOs with UO.

    I want a goddamn auction house unless MJ can really really really really really spin shitty player shops as something worth a damn without causing me hassle when I want to buy something.  I don't mind player shops in addition to an AH (a la Aion), but no AH = bad mojo.

    Well. Auction House is convience, especially for non crafter/trader. No question. But it also results to less community, to no common ground for crafter/trader and warriors, for less interaction. The price for that is more time investment from the buyer side.. at least as long as you dont have your connections, or have build up your community.

    You played UO, so i will start with UO comparion(because honestly the player shops in DAoC were not that good, at least in my opinion.

    You stated that you will have no communication with other players with a Vendor Shop. And that is to some degree right. But you may meet them, and usually (as it was in UO) you got a guestbook were you could write some comments, or place your orders. And usually after playing some time you got your few favorite Ingame shops or Crafter, and by that time you have met them(at least i did so in the past) the owner. And with that it usually did not take much more time to buy your stuff as it is with a auction house. (the more time was spent before building up community and looking for shops/crafters meeting your exceptions.. forced time investment for building community is here the key point.

    I let it with that.. you played UO, so you should remember the old times good enough.

    And this one (not having AH, but some other ways to build up communities better) will influence the Dungeon Finder issue, too.

    I personally dont have anything against some group finding mechanism, as long as the are flexible enough and involve some sort of communication.

    BUT.. if your game have a few features to build up community(like no AH.. and of course just that feature will never be enough.. you really need a few more pro community features), you usually know more than enough ppl anyway, and you will rather play with them(and asking them for a group), instead of using some Dungeon Finder.

    Originally posted by Sagorn
    Originally posted by WellzyC

     

    ...

     

    While a lot of younger people play MMO's there are a lot of adults who play as well.

     

    I am in my 40's, and I don't think I would play any MMO for any amount of time if it did not have:

     

    1. Solo-ability

    2. Some sort of group finder.

    3. Some sort of fast travel.

    4. An auction house.

     

    You are one of those people that seem to associate the difficulty of a game based on the inconveniences it offers. Spending less time to get the same things done doesn't make the game "easier", it makes it less time consuming. Just because a game has a lot of strong solo content doesn't mean the solo content has to be easier. Do you see what I am getting at?

     

    I played EQ.. which was a "hard" mmo, for lack of a better term. I had my own 6-man group that I played on 4 PC's. I would never want to go back to that sort of game where I had to play my own group, or be FORCED to group to do any content. Old school gaming doesn't mean "better". I'm also not a casual player. I understand that people want better rewards for the time they put in. This is not a wild concept, but it also doesn't mean that you can't have all the things you listed because non-hardcore players don't need/want them. So you'd rather walk for 20 mins to get to the area you are going, as opposed to taking some sort of fast travel and being there instantly, or, within 1 minute? That's not hardcore, that's just a waste of time.

     

    --Sagorn

    Everything would be ok, if spending less time for something would have exactly the same benefits. But the problem is, in a lot of those features, it is just not the case. I explained the community building effect of warrior/crafter relations with a good trading system. (and AH is just convience for the buyer, but with no positive side effect)

    And to fast travel. To have some sort of limited fast travel may not be a problem. But for a pvp game it is in some cases a very big problem. Because it can result in the "instant reinforcement all the time effect".

    If i siege a castle or if a fight against another army(group or whatever) i prefer a end to a fight. It feels just more statisfying. And for that you need longer travel time to that fighing place(and with it a large and not so extremely crowded world, too). So if anyone of your team dies or from the enemy cant reinforce one side or the others.. and the same is true for all other allies around. So that a fight really can end if one team or the other is finally wiped out.

    And that was one reason why DAoC was much more thrilling than a lot of other games, when it comes down to pvp. It is a pain in the ass in most modern games that almost any battle never ends because of unlimited reinforcement of already slaughters players. And the reason for that is fast traveling and small or even very small pvp maps.

    In old DAoC it was more or less impossible to reinforce a fight after you were finally died, and more or less all fights were come to and end sooner or later. And i really want it back, and for that fast travel have to be either extremely limited or let out completely.

    The problem with convenience features is more often than not, that they have some side effects, or they let out some addional advantages of older systems. You have to look at the whole picture, when talking about certain features.

    And because of that, i am very happy that Camelot Unchained will not features an AH or pvp destroying fast travel. But as already often said in this thread, CU will be a niche game, and usually no game can cater to any kind of players. You have to made some decisions, and stick with it.. even if that means that you may lose some players.. but at the same time you may win, or retain other player groups.

    I dont know this game is for you or not. You will have to make that decision at some point. I just tried to describe some reasons why they took that path, and didnt put in that kind of features. Because there is really a reason to do so.. and not just to anger possible players and customers.

     

  • EasymodeXEasymodeX No, VAPosts: 149Member

    You stated that you will have no communication with other players with a Vendor Shop. And that is to some degree right. But you may meet them, and usually (as it was in UO) you got a guestbook were you could write some comments, or place your orders. 

    Well, I'll have to generally disagree about "likelihood to randomly meet other players while shopping".  The fact of the matter is that most players (with the exception of the roleplay bartender guy+wife, which is awesome) don't sit around their virtual house most of the time (when they are logged in at all), or stand next to their vendor most of the time.  It's a theoretical possibility, but it is extremely fringe.

    I see your guestbook / comment log though.  It is similar to the bulletin / bazaar concept suggested elsewhere.  That could actually make a direct trade system work (but without player shop bots, because if the player shops are bots, then it's the DAOC CM system which is identical to the AH, except with a lot more running around and a 0.5% chance to meet the bot owner while interacting with the bot).

    Note: it would be like the Diablo 2 trade system where WTS/WTB was spammed as game names scrolling past, but in a much, much, much more structured/coherent/readable fashion.  Aka like the GW2 buy order / sales.  That would be nifty.  An AH without trade execution capability.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member

    To much assumptions. We don't know what MJ and his team have planned in regards to this.

    Might very well turn out like EvE, if you buy stuff it doesn't magically appear in your inventory, but where the person selling it placed it for sale. Nobody complains there, because it makes freaking sense(and you know before you buy where something is located).

    I agree that too much convenience makes a game boring, EvE doesn't have a whole lot convenience, fast travel and probably alot harsher death penalty than CU ever gonna see. And you know what? That game is fine. The players are fine. No doom, gloom and sinking ship. This is supposed to be a game where crafting plays a major role, everything made by players remember? That means our rolemodel, if we need one, should be another crafting centric game like EvE, not a game like WoW where crafting is a afterthaught/sidequest at best.

  • TuktzTuktz Atlanta, GAPosts: 299Member
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    To much assumptions. We don't know what MJ and his team have planned in regards to this.

    Might very well turn out like EvE, if you buy stuff it doesn't magically appear in your inventory, but where the person selling it placed it for sale. Nobody complains there, because it makes freaking sense(and you know before you buy where something is located).

    I agree that too much convenience makes a game boring, EvE doesn't have a whole lot convenience, fast travel and probably alot harsher death penalty than CU ever gonna see. And you know what? That game is fine. The players are fine. No doom, gloom and sinking ship. This is supposed to be a game where crafting plays a major role, everything made by players remember? That means our rolemodel, if we need one, should be another crafting centric game like EvE, not a game like WoW where crafting is a afterthaught/sidequest at best.

    That was great! =) I love that system in EVE.

    It actually makes transporting commodities and final crafted goods around a risk you take, that other players can pirate on.

    When you actually have to move stuff around, it adds a dynamic that could be put to great effect in a game like CU. Set up ambushes in popular trade / materials gathering routes. =)

    Defend your haulers /  crafters on their routes too. =)

    image
    MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
    Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Tuktz
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    To much assumptions. We don't know what MJ and his team have planned in regards to this.

    Might very well turn out like EvE, if you buy stuff it doesn't magically appear in your inventory, but where the person selling it placed it for sale. Nobody complains there, because it makes freaking sense(and you know before you buy where something is located).

    I agree that too much convenience makes a game boring, EvE doesn't have a whole lot convenience, fast travel and probably alot harsher death penalty than CU ever gonna see. And you know what? That game is fine. The players are fine. No doom, gloom and sinking ship. This is supposed to be a game where crafting plays a major role, everything made by players remember? That means our rolemodel, if we need one, should be another crafting centric game like EvE, not a game like WoW where crafting is a afterthaught/sidequest at best.

    That was great! =) I love that system in EVE.

    It actually makes transporting commodities and final crafted goods around a risk you take, that other players can pirate on.

    When you actually have to move stuff around, it adds a dynamic that could be put to great effect in a game like CU. Set up ambushes in popular trade / materials gathering routes. =)

    Defend your haulers /  crafters on their routes too. =)

    Hmm i know they said no corpse looting, but exceptions for unbound items and raw materials/resources is imho definitely in order :D.

  • TuktzTuktz Atlanta, GAPosts: 299Member
    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    Originally posted by Tuktz
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    To much assumptions. We don't know what MJ and his team have planned in regards to this.

    Might very well turn out like EvE, if you buy stuff it doesn't magically appear in your inventory, but where the person selling it placed it for sale. Nobody complains there, because it makes freaking sense(and you know before you buy where something is located).

    I agree that too much convenience makes a game boring, EvE doesn't have a whole lot convenience, fast travel and probably alot harsher death penalty than CU ever gonna see. And you know what? That game is fine. The players are fine. No doom, gloom and sinking ship. This is supposed to be a game where crafting plays a major role, everything made by players remember? That means our rolemodel, if we need one, should be another crafting centric game like EvE, not a game like WoW where crafting is a afterthaught/sidequest at best.

    That was great! =) I love that system in EVE.

    It actually makes transporting commodities and final crafted goods around a risk you take, that other players can pirate on.

    When you actually have to move stuff around, it adds a dynamic that could be put to great effect in a game like CU. Set up ambushes in popular trade / materials gathering routes. =)

    Defend your haulers /  crafters on their routes too. =)

    Hmm i know they said no corpse looting, but exceptions for unbound items and raw materials/resources is imho definitely in order :D.

    Well I interpret corpse looting as if someone kills you, they can pick up the gear you were wearing off your corpse.

    I don't want that. I think that's a bit extreme.

    However, and I don't know what mechanic they could use to implement this, but maybe just stuff you're carrying? or maybe only crafting mats and crafted items you're holding but not wearing?

    Or even mix it up a little bit, and make the method for transporting that stuff a little different, like you pull it behind you or push it in front of you in a cart or wagon, and the cart/wagon can be looted if you're killed.

     

    There's probably other ways to do it. Those were just spur of the moment thoughts.

    image
    MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
    Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/

  • usuckmmorpgcomusuckmmorpgcom c, KYPosts: 1,348Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by topographic

    Originally posted by GreenHell I have to agree with EasymodeX. His points are well made. It's a sad reflection on the CU community when the responses he gets are "this game isn't for you."
    "This game isn't for you" is the new derp.

    Even if it's true? I mean really, CU isn't the entire MMO market. It's one game. It can't be for everyone. It would not be surprising if some of the people the game is not for are here on these forums, posting about the game.

    Why is the assumption that the game must change, to please the people who don't like it rather than those people just find something else to play? If the game doesn't attract enough people, it will die. This is how things should be. It's the only way to explore new territory in MMOs so that new and possibly better game mechanics can get implemented.

    **

    Alternatively, if the game attracts enough people and thrives, then some better game mechanics have been found. Didn't mean to imply that the game would fail.

     

    All I was commenting about is that the phrase is old, tired, and overused by the sheeple.

    You're standing on the wrong soapbox.

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