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[Column] Camelot Unchained: Impossibly Driven By Hope?

2

Comments

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by will75

    So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now?  While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article.

     

    Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back.

    SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you.

    Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.

    Because Mark Jacobs doesn't deserve my money.

    He had his chance with one of the largest IP's in the world. Warhammer. And screwed up beyond any words!

    Just like Richard Garriott doesn't deserve my money either.

    Both of these over-inflated EGO trippers had a huge studio under their bumbs, plenty of great talent at their finger tips and over 40 million US dollars in funding and more than enough time (5+ years)!

    They had all the ingredients they needed to make a great game! (Warhammer Online and Tabula Rasa) and screwed it up BIG TIME!

    Same thing with Bioware and SW:TOR! They had the largest budget ever! They had a huge amount of talent at their disposal! They had plenty of time (5+ years)!  And screwed up BIG TIME!

    Publishers, in this case EA and NCSoft, had nothing to do with these debacles, as they gave them enough money and enough time to deliver the product.

    It's not like they had to rush it to market within 2 years, like ATARI forced Cryptic to with CO and STO.

    So please explain to me why this time it would be any different with Mr. Jacobs and Mr.Garriott?

    I cannot believe how short of  memory people have these days.

    I know it's always easy to portray publishers as the BIG BAD WOLF these days. And in case of EA it's sadly often true lately!

    But for the above, EA and NCSoft were sertainly not to blame. Sorry, but that is just very naive.

    Actually, we had three years. We signed the license deal for Warhammer at ES June 2005, released in September 2008. Plus, the original development timeline for WAR was 2  years and we had two delays and I had to fight to get it to 3 years.

    Alright. I am adult enough to eat my words. In YOUR case.

    Mr. Garriott tho (and Bioware with SW:TOR).... is a different matter and those stand. As I followed them from beginning till end.

    But as you are looking and posting here anyway. I am sertainly not the only one thinking about this.
    Why did you not go for a Three faction system with Warhammer Online and do it right with that game?
    The IP sertainly did not restrict you from doing so.
    You have to admit yourself that you made quite some bad decisions on Warhammer Online development. :-/

  • MkilbrideMkilbride Hooksett, NHPosts: 637Member Uncommon
     
     

    MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

     

    As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

     

    JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

     

    So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

     

    I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

     

    I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

     

    Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

     

    Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

     

    ----------------------

     

    In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

     

    YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

     

    With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

     
     

    Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  • dantheman13dantheman13 las vegas, NVPosts: 55Member
    As a backer of CU, I know perfectly well that it won't be as good as DAOC.  Nothing ever will.  But DAoC isn't the only MJ game I have enjoyed, I also loved Warhammer.  Yes, Warhammer sucked at release.  I quit in frustration just like everyone else. As a DAOC fan my disappointment was beyond words.  However, when I went back a year or so later after the game was playable, it became one of my favorite games of all time.  Warhammer gets such a bad rap in this community, yet it became a great game.  Public questing was invented, realm pride was re-invented, the scenarios are better than GW2 sPvP, classes were designed around PvP and not PvE, etc.  So for me that's TWO great MMO's that MJ has put out.  I would be a fool not to push for CU.
  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 468Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by will75

    So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now?  While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article.

     

    Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back.

    SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you.

    Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.

    Because Mark Jacobs doesn't deserve my money.

    He had his chance with one of the largest IP's in the world. Warhammer. And screwed up beyond any words!

    Just like Richard Garriott doesn't deserve my money either.

    Both of these over-inflated EGO trippers had a huge studio under their bumbs, plenty of great talent at their finger tips and over 40 million US dollars in funding and more than enough time (5+ years)!

    They had all the ingredients they needed to make a great game! (Warhammer Online and Tabula Rasa) and screwed it up BIG TIME!

    Same thing with Bioware and SW:TOR! They had the largest budget ever! They had a huge amount of talent at their disposal! They had plenty of time (5+ years)!  And screwed up BIG TIME!

    Publishers, in this case EA and NCSoft, had nothing to do with these debacles, as they gave them enough money and enough time to deliver the product.

    It's not like they had to rush it to market within 2 years, like ATARI forced Cryptic to with CO and STO.

    So please explain to me why this time it would be any different with Mr. Jacobs and Mr.Garriott?

    I cannot believe how short of  memory people have these days.

    I know it's always easy to portray publishers as the BIG BAD WOLF these days. And in case of EA it's sadly often true lately!

    But for the above, EA and NCSoft were sertainly not to blame. Sorry, but that is just very naive.

    Actually, we had three years. We signed the license deal for Warhammer at ES June 2005, released in September 2008. Plus, the original development timeline for WAR was 2  years and we had two delays and I had to fight to get it to 3 years.

    Alright. I am adult enough to eat my words. In YOUR case.

    Mr. Garriott tho (and Bioware with SW:TOR).... is a different matter and those stand. As I followed them from beginning till end.

    But as you are looking and posting here anyway. I am sertainly not the only one thinking about this.
    Why did you not go for a Three faction system with Warhammer Online and do it right with that game?
    The IP sertainly did not restrict you from doing so.
    You have to admit yourself that you made quite some bad decisions on Warhammer Online development. :-/

    First, no worries. You admitted your mistake (5 vs 3) and I will happily reciprocate (within my usual "don't throw people under the bus").

    Originally WAR did have a three-faction system in my vision document. We changed that to two factions due to certain issues (financial being one of them). It was a terrible mistake and since I was the head of the studio at that time, no matter what the reasons, I accept responsibility for that one. If I could take it back, I would but please know it wasn't due to "Three faction RvR, unthinkable!" :)

    Thanks again for being willing to listen. 

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • ColdrenColdren Nowhereville, TNPosts: 456Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    I cannot believe how short of  memory people have these days.

    Nor can I.

    You remember the most recent "failures". And if you look closely, there are reasons.

    Do you remember the plans for Warhammer before they were bought out by EA? 3 factions (Just confirmed above), more capital cities to invade, etc.?

    Do you remember what TR was supposed to be before Destination Games was bought out by NCSoft? Fantasy/Cyberpunk kinda game before it became a military alien invasion game in an attempt to appease eastern and western audiences?

    Here are some more memory questions:

    Do you remember (Or have ever played) the original Ultimas or UO?

    Do you remember any of other games prior to and including DAoC?

    When a big company shows up at your doorstep with untold millions of dollars and all the resources you could ever imagine to do what you do best, I challange you to turn them down.

    RG and MJ didn't. And they paid dearly for it.

    I remember myself going straight to the IGN forums when Mythic was bought out, screaming at the top of my lungs what a mistake it was, that no matter what the executives who are now signing your checks tell you, you are going to be doing EXACTLY what they tell you to. And so it came to pass.

    The problem with that is, the executives, the board members, the bean counters.. They're not developers. They have no idea what is involved, or how to think about the problems and communities that surround these games, these worlds, that are built. The games these bigger companies bought never became the games they were designed to be because all the could see was the numbers, and when you only focus on what to do with your prize money, you will more often that not stumble when you actually run the race. They only knew what they COULD make - They had no idea about what was involved in getting there. These two particular companies, it seems, still don't.

    I have funded both MJ and RG's newest projects, and I do not, and will not forget anything of their past. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that their desire to make their fortunes blinded them to the reality of what was going to happen. Whether or not they knew it is up for debate, but they are only human, and I can't say I wouldn't have done the same.

    For me, personally, this is their last chance. I enjoyed both of their previous works prior to their failures, and I am operating on the premise that, free of all the factors that I believe held them back (Corporate beauracracy, management hell, red tape a plenty), they will be able to do what they used to do best.

    They're hungry to prove it. They have to be. And for that, I'll give them their shot.

    If these get fully funded (In RG's case, overfunded) and still fail? Then there is no more possible excuse.

    But don't assume anyone has forgotten anything. Some of us are quite aware of what was, what is, and most importantly, what could be again... COULD.

     
     
  • ColdrenColdren Nowhereville, TNPosts: 456Member Uncommon
    [Edit - Wrong button.. Sorry!]
  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mkilbride
     
     

    MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

     

    As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

     

    JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

     

    So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

     

    I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

     

    I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

     

    Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

     

    Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

     

    ----------------------

     

    In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

     

    YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

     

    With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

     
     

     I can still ask the same question.

    How is it going to be any different now?

    Both him and Garriott estimate to release the game in three years from now.

    So basically same development time, but far less funding and thus a lot less people to work with.

    Sure this time they do not have publisher breathing down their neck and call harsh deadlines.

    But are we as players any different?

    With the current oversaturated MMO market, players have become far more ruthless then publishers.

    If he is going to delay the game to say.... 2018, instead of the 2015 / 2016 estimate.... he will get the wrath of his playerbase, which is far worse and more devestating than a publisher calling your deadline.

    Both he and mr. Garriott will sooner than later find out, that Publishers are (in most cases) far more reasonable than the average gamer nowadays. lol.

  • MkilbrideMkilbride Hooksett, NHPosts: 637Member Uncommon

    More reasonable than gamers, sure...but he doesn't have a legal requirement to listen to us, unlike publishers.

     

    As for different now? HE doesn't have a ton of PvE content to make, or balance for. That shaves off a HUGE amount of time. Seriously. 3 years is plenty of time when they don't have to worry about PvE, balancing for PVP & PvE, loot drops, story, cutscenes, quests, all that, ectera.

    Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  • expressoexpresso mePosts: 2,183Member Uncommon

    People are backing this game thinking it will being back those feelings of those days when MMO's were new and you really had no idea what to expect.  You can re-create a game but you cannot re-create the feeling you had back then and 90% of backers are doing so thnking this game will re-create the feeling... it wont.

     

  • will75will75 Fatalis,The Combine, SoB... Semi retired, waiting for next big thing.., FLPosts: 353Member
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Mkilbride
     
     

    MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

     

    As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

     

    JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

     

    So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

     

    I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

     

    I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

     

    Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

     

    Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

     

    ----------------------

     

    In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

     

    YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

     

    With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

     
     

     I can still ask the same question.

    How is it going to be any different now?

    Both him and Garriott estimate to release the game in three years from now.

    So basically same development time, but far less funding and thus a lot less people to work with.

    Sure this time they do not have publisher breathing down their neck and call harsh deadlines.

    But are we as players any different?

    With the current oversaturated MMO market, players have become far more ruthless then publishers.

    If he is going to delay the game to say.... 2018, instead of the 2015 / 2016 estimate.... he will get the wrath of his playerbase, which is far worse and more devestating than a publisher calling your deadline.

    Both he and mr. Garriott will sooner than later find out, that Publishers are (in most cases) far more reasonable than the average gamer nowadays. lol.

    There is a difference between a pve game and a pvp game in the terms of development.Do you know how long it takes to write all those encounters and mobs? All they have to do is focus on pvp.... 

    NO ai is needed really except basic forms of the depths, which may or may not even be included in the game. So all they need to focus on is making the combat good, and making a reason for conflict. The COMMUNITY will make the content... eg... building.  And they will build their cities, they will have them torn down, they will need to rebuild. etc.. etc...

  • will75will75 Fatalis,The Combine, SoB... Semi retired, waiting for next big thing.., FLPosts: 353Member
    Originally posted by expresso

    People are backing this game thinking it will being back those feelings of those days when MMO's were new and you really had no idea what to expect.  You can re-create a game but you cannot re-create the feeling you had back then and 90% of backers are doing so thnking this game will re-create the feeling... it wont.

     

     

    I think this is partly true, but there is still people wanting something that's not being delivered to them, which is why they are backing this project. I guess there is a healthy amount of older people who want something different. If MJ was just going to give us the same BS that we've already seen, i wouldn't be interested. I want RVR DONE RIGHT.... That's it DONE RIGHT!  Will CU do it right? Maybe. 

    Did guild wars 2 do RvR right ?

    Has anything you've seen from TESO shown you they are doing RvR right?

    The genre is dyinh because of clones :(  A breath of fresh air that doesn't do handholding is needed. I think MJ wants to do that, will he ? We'll know in a few years... hopefully . If not? Do you honestly think he will ever be able to get support again? This is all or nothing for Mark.I think he knows that.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by will75
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Mkilbride
     
     

    MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

     

    As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

     

    JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

     

    So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

     

    I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

     

    I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

     

    Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

     

    Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

     

    ----------------------

     

    In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

     

    YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

     

    With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

     
     

     I can still ask the same question.

    How is it going to be any different now?

    Both him and Garriott estimate to release the game in three years from now.

    So basically same development time, but far less funding and thus a lot less people to work with.

    Sure this time they do not have publisher breathing down their neck and call harsh deadlines.

    But are we as players any different?

    With the current oversaturated MMO market, players have become far more ruthless then publishers.

    If he is going to delay the game to say.... 2018, instead of the 2015 / 2016 estimate.... he will get the wrath of his playerbase, which is far worse and more devestating than a publisher calling your deadline.

    Both he and mr. Garriott will sooner than later find out, that Publishers are (in most cases) far more reasonable than the average gamer nowadays. lol.

    There is a difference between a pve game and a pvp game in the terms of development.Do you know how long it takes to write all those encounters and mobs? All they have to do is focus on pvp.... 

    NO ai is needed really except basic forms of the depths, which may or may not even be included in the game. So all they need to focus on is making the combat good, and making a reason for conflict. The COMMUNITY will make the content... eg... building.  And they will build their cities, they will have them torn down, they will need to rebuild. etc.. etc...

     So this game's persistent world will just be a static barren wasteland?

    - No Flora and Fauna? No NPC's? No mobs?

    - No resources for crafting to fight over in PVP?

    How are people going to build buildings and cities then? Just out of thin Air?

    What's the point of playing / PVP'ing in a persistent world, when there is no economy / no resources to fight over?

    You see where I am trying to get at?

    You don't necessarily have to have PVE content in form of missions/quests, dungeons, raids, etc.

    But you still have to create a believing living virtial persisten world people can feel immersed in. And that requires NPC's (mobs, NPC's, whatever) and AI.

    And if you want to have meaningfull PVP in form of Sieging cities. It would make sense those cities require resources to build and thus gives PVP a secondary objective to fight over: resources and thus also a form of crafting system.

    We are maybe derailing a bit, but there is a reason why EVE Online has been so popular over the years tho.

    Tho it never reached the heights it could have, due to  the missing "avatar" people can feel connected to, instead of just a ship that can be blown up and replaced every time.

    If someone made an EVE Online in fantasy setting with "real" avatars..... oh boy oh boy! :-)

  • Daimonion69Daimonion69 RegensburgPosts: 29Member

    First of all, i want to regard MJs active participation in this discussion. Not many developers would do that, because of the dirt that could get thrown on you. Imho, this shows his passion for the project and that alone gives me a positive feeling.

     

    The mistakes made in the past are often mentioned, but what counts is, that those mistakes do not repeat and that there is an open ear, how to solve the problems in future. That open ear is given at least.

     

    The big Problem in WAR was the PVP endgame, where too many compromises were made, to please dedicated players and casuals. In the end, both were pissed. In my opinion, EA hat a big part here.

    For the pure PvP in WAR... speaking of mechanics and gameplay, i had really a lot of fun here.

     

    And lastly for the F2P model. OOhh, i am a bit prejudiced here. There are of course some good and "honest" F2P titles.

    But the generel problem of the F2P model is that the goal of the gamedesign is no longer the fun of the players, but to artificially create demands!

    Its about earning money and about psychology. How to make ppl (and even worse kids) to spend small amounts of cash.

    Ok, i could really run amok here... but as i said, there are still some "honest" ppl outside there, that still give you a good gaming experience.

  • will75will75 Fatalis,The Combine, SoB... Semi retired, waiting for next big thing.., FLPosts: 353Member
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by will75
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Mkilbride
     
     

    MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

     

    As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

     

    JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

     

    So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

     

    I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

     

    I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

     

    Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

     

    Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

     

    ----------------------

     

    In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

     

    YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

     

    With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

     
     

     I can still ask the same question.

    How is it going to be any different now?

    Both him and Garriott estimate to release the game in three years from now.

    So basically same development time, but far less funding and thus a lot less people to work with.

    Sure this time they do not have publisher breathing down their neck and call harsh deadlines.

    But are we as players any different?

    With the current oversaturated MMO market, players have become far more ruthless then publishers.

    If he is going to delay the game to say.... 2018, instead of the 2015 / 2016 estimate.... he will get the wrath of his playerbase, which is far worse and more devestating than a publisher calling your deadline.

    Both he and mr. Garriott will sooner than later find out, that Publishers are (in most cases) far more reasonable than the average gamer nowadays. lol.

    There is a difference between a pve game and a pvp game in the terms of development.Do you know how long it takes to write all those encounters and mobs? All they have to do is focus on pvp.... 

    NO ai is needed really except basic forms of the depths, which may or may not even be included in the game. So all they need to focus on is making the combat good, and making a reason for conflict. The COMMUNITY will make the content... eg... building.  And they will build their cities, they will have them torn down, they will need to rebuild. etc.. etc...

     So this game's persistent world will just be a static barren wasteland?

    - No Flora and Fauna? No NPC's? No mobs?

    - No resources for crafting to fight over in PVP?

    How are people going to build buildings and cities then? Just out of thin Air?

    What's the point of playing / PVP'ing in a persistent world, when there is no economy / no resources to fight over?

    You see where I am trying to get at?

    You don't necessarily have to have PVE content in form of missions/quests, dungeons, raids, etc.

    But you still have to create a believing living virtial persisten world people can feel immersed in. And that requires NPC's (mobs, NPC's, whatever) and AI.

    And if you want to have meaningfull PVP in form of Sieging cities. It would make sense those cities require resources to build and thus gives PVP a secondary objective to fight over: resources and thus also a form of crafting system.

    We are maybe derailing a bit, but there is a reason why EVE Online has been so popular over the years tho.

    Tho it never reached the heights it could have, due to  the missing "avatar" people can feel connected to, instead of just a ship that can be blown up and replaced every time.

    If someone made an EVE Online in fantasy setting with "real" avatars..... oh boy oh boy! :-)

    Sorry quick answer, have you read the wiki or watched all the videos read the information? Much of your questions are answered on how it will work, or supposed to work thus far. As for your final sentence.

    In a perfect world. i wish the same, but there won't be any FFA pvp.. Well at least MJ said not right away, but it's always open as a maybe, that alone gets me excited, a lot of people thought how much andred/mordred were failures of a server. Some of my best DAOC memories are from those 2 servers.  Same with the FFA servers in AOC and UO etc .. etc.. Maybe world of darkness or whatever it is will be that game, but not fantasy...  I might not get FFA pvp. IF MJ is smart(my opinion of course), he looks at EvE successes and tries to incorporate them and his own new ideas

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Dahkoht
    While I have my concerns in some regards , the best thing to me is Jacobs repeatedly stating they are shooting for a niche game and audience.The horribly bland , try and make everyone happy games are terrible in the past few years.If you aren't into RvR , want to play every faction on the same server , don't like PvP overall etc , they aren't making a game for you.Nor should they.
    I wish more games would shoot for a more specific and limited audience instead of the "try (and fail) to please everybody" approach.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Detroit, MIPosts: 376Member
    Originally posted by expresso

    People are backing this game thinking it will being back those feelings of those days when MMO's were new and you really had no idea what to expect.  You can re-create a game but you cannot re-create the feeling you had back then and 90% of backers are doing so thnking this game will re-create the feeling... it wont.

     

     

    I'm not looking to bring back that feeling. My first MMO was Lineage 1 back in 1999. I have very fond memories of that game. I realize no other game will recreate that feeling for me. All I want is an RvR focused MMO with an "old-school" feel. And it seems that's exactly what CU will be. Thus my interest in it.

     
  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by will75
    Originally posted by expresso

    People are backing this game thinking it will being back those feelings of those days when MMO's were new and you really had no idea what to expect.  You can re-create a game but you cannot re-create the feeling you had back then and 90% of backers are doing so thnking this game will re-create the feeling... it wont.

     

     

    I think this is partly true, but there is still people wanting something that's not being delivered to them, which is why they are backing this project. I guess there is a healthy amount of older people who want something different. If MJ was just going to give us the same BS that we've already seen, i wouldn't be interested. I want RVR DONE RIGHT.... That's it DONE RIGHT!  Will CU do it right? Maybe. 

    Did guild wars 2 do RvR right ?

    Has anything you've seen from TESO shown you they are doing RvR right?

    The genre is dyinh because of clones :(  A breath of fresh air that doesn't do handholding is needed. I think MJ wants to do that, will he ? We'll know in a few years... hopefully . If not? Do you honestly think he will ever be able to get support again? This is all or nothing for Mark.I think he knows that.

    Hm. I kinda hope it will bring me the kind of feeling again you get the first time in an expensive EvE ship when you enter lowsec or an engagement. AKA the NBD - nervous breakdown. Damn i'll never forget that feeling, how my motorcontrol went to hell and my adrenaline spiked, and i couldn't even tell you what went through my head as i saw the reds warping in :D. A friend that was watching me go through that episode bought himself a PC just to play that game with me.

    I'll gladly pay 50-100$ just to have that feeling a couple more times, because EvE isn't giving it to me any more. Though im not that hopeful, maybe the synapses responisble got fried :D.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by will75
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by will75
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Mkilbride
     
     

    MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.

     

    As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.

     

    JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.

     

    So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 

     

    I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.

     

    I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.

     

    Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"

     

    Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?

     

    ----------------------

     

    In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.

     

    YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.

     

    With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.

     
     

     I can still ask the same question.

    How is it going to be any different now?

    Both him and Garriott estimate to release the game in three years from now.

    So basically same development time, but far less funding and thus a lot less people to work with.

    Sure this time they do not have publisher breathing down their neck and call harsh deadlines.

    But are we as players any different?

    With the current oversaturated MMO market, players have become far more ruthless then publishers.

    If he is going to delay the game to say.... 2018, instead of the 2015 / 2016 estimate.... he will get the wrath of his playerbase, which is far worse and more devestating than a publisher calling your deadline.

    Both he and mr. Garriott will sooner than later find out, that Publishers are (in most cases) far more reasonable than the average gamer nowadays. lol.

    There is a difference between a pve game and a pvp game in the terms of development.Do you know how long it takes to write all those encounters and mobs? All they have to do is focus on pvp.... 

    NO ai is needed really except basic forms of the depths, which may or may not even be included in the game. So all they need to focus on is making the combat good, and making a reason for conflict. The COMMUNITY will make the content... eg... building.  And they will build their cities, they will have them torn down, they will need to rebuild. etc.. etc...

     So this game's persistent world will just be a static barren wasteland?

    - No Flora and Fauna? No NPC's? No mobs?

    - No resources for crafting to fight over in PVP?

    How are people going to build buildings and cities then? Just out of thin Air?

    What's the point of playing / PVP'ing in a persistent world, when there is no economy / no resources to fight over?

    You see where I am trying to get at?

    You don't necessarily have to have PVE content in form of missions/quests, dungeons, raids, etc.

    But you still have to create a believing living virtial persisten world people can feel immersed in. And that requires NPC's (mobs, NPC's, whatever) and AI.

    And if you want to have meaningfull PVP in form of Sieging cities. It would make sense those cities require resources to build and thus gives PVP a secondary objective to fight over: resources and thus also a form of crafting system.

    We are maybe derailing a bit, but there is a reason why EVE Online has been so popular over the years tho.

    Tho it never reached the heights it could have, due to  the missing "avatar" people can feel connected to, instead of just a ship that can be blown up and replaced every time.

    If someone made an EVE Online in fantasy setting with "real" avatars..... oh boy oh boy! :-)

    Sorry quick answer, have you read the wiki or watched all the videos read the information? Much of your questions are answered on how it will work, or supposed to work thus far. As for your final sentence.

    In a perfect world. i wish the same, but there won't be any FFA pvp.. Well at least MJ said not right away, but it's always open as a maybe, that alone gets me excited, a lot of people thought how much andred/mordred were failures of a server. Some of my best DAOC memories are from those 2 servers.  Same with the FFA servers in AOC and UO etc .. etc.. Maybe world of darkness or whatever it is will be that game, but not fantasy...  I might not get FFA pvp. IF MJ is smart, he looks at EvE successes and tries to incorporate them and his own new ideas

     Normally I hate FFA PVP with a passion, due to most games releasing it with flawed designs and turning it into griefing paradises, which killed off those games pretty fast with quickly dwindling populations. Like Darkfall for example.

    The reason why EVE Online is a success, is because they did it right. Creating a High Sec space where people have plenty of room to feel "somewhat" safe, learn the ropes, play at their own pace and lots of people never leave High Sec and just enjoy the game that way.

    And people seeking the thrills of adventure, high risk / high reward challenge, go seek low sec and 0.0 space and enter the FFA PVP fray!

    That's how a good PVP game is supposed to be designed, where FFA PVP works, without turning it into a Griefer Only paradise!

  • will75will75 Fatalis,The Combine, SoB... Semi retired, waiting for next big thing.., FLPosts: 353Member
    Do you remember the first time someone went hostile on you in d1/d2? That's a feeling i miss.
  • Zu_beiZu_bei Holbrook, MAPosts: 17Member
    I think some people are confusing the fact that there won't be any PvE leveling/loot. CU will in fact have NPCs..the game would feel lifeless without them. CU will also probably have critters for crafters to get materials from, on top of other various means of obtaining materials. Also, has anyone watched the latest updates on the kickstarter? The game WILL have MOBs. You will also be able to control some of these mobs in the depths to annoy the opposing realms.

    I'm sorry but it seems like a lot of people here are bashing CU without even taking the time to look at the kick starter page, read the wiki, watch the updates..ect.

    If you love rvr, crafting, building ...I'm sure people will love what MJ is wanting to do with Camelot Unchained.
  • Zu_beiZu_bei Holbrook, MAPosts: 17Member
    Taken from Camelot Unchained update 17 where backers questions are answered:

    2) Will we have to grind PvE NPCs in TD? I thought you said “No PvE leveling or loot drops!”

    No and I did. ? The vast majority of NPCs in TD will be players and/or non-bosses. These NPCs will be more of an annoyance (unless it is a PCM) and are not there for grinding. Even the NPC bosses aren’t a huge challenge, unless a PC is controlling them. Also, the common “Kill the boss 10 times and hope for one good drop” mechanic, there is none of that in TD. You’re killing the guard dog, the treasure (forge, mines, etc.) are there, no randomness applied.

    3) Can you level in TD by killing NPCs?

    No. If you kill PCMs you will be rewarded and to incentivize the other realm, they will also level by killing you. As the level of PCM increases, the player controlling it can also pay a penalty if they just stand there and let you beat on it.

    4) Can crafters upgrade the NPCs in TD?

    Maybe. ?

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    If the game fails, no big deal.  Games aren't that important.
  • AlomarAlomar Middle Earth, NJPosts: 447Member Uncommon

    I'm too young to have played DOAC in it's prime and I am a part of this new "younger" generation of mmo-players that keep buying and asking for more trash-like WoW clones. I on the other hand, am looking forward to CU and will be donating towards it's funding. Theres been so much repetative trash these past few years and no matter who's to blame its gotten out of control.

    The openness of MJ and CSE about CU and what their aiming for is inspiring and even if it doesn't pan out, I hope it does, I'll be there for it. I'm a hardcore large-scale pvper who hasn't had the fortune to play a good rvr game at it's prime yet.

    ESO & ArchAge should last me till CU

    Dozens of MMO's, RTS's, FPS's, etc.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Dahkoht
    While I have my concerns in some regards , the best thing to me is Jacobs repeatedly stating they are shooting for a niche game and audience.The horribly bland , try and make everyone happy games are terrible in the past few years.If you aren't into RvR , want to play every faction on the same server , don't like PvP overall etc , they aren't making a game for you.Nor should they.

    I wish more games would shoot for a more specific and limited audience instead of the "try (and fail) to please everybody" approach.

     

    agreed.. trying to please everyone ends up being an endless tug of war game and you usually end up dissapointing more in the end.. 

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by will75

    So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now?  While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article.

     

    Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back.

    SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you.

    Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.

    What I read was that gamers have changed, and regardless of whether or not the game is funded and well received, chances are slim that anyone will recapture that old feeling. People interact differently online than the used to, even within the same game.

    That era of shared newness may never happen again. Mmos aren't unexplored territory anymore, people know hw to approach them and how to dissect them.

    But you never know and we might all be surprised, we'll see

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