Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
It's easy to see now why/how MMOs have got so bad.
WellzyC
Member UncommonPosts: 599
This is a niche MMO, the rules were laid out, and the vision was shared.
But this got really popular really fast, and just looking at this forum alone you can see the influx of post wow era mmoers, who just started playing mmos after 2010 because their Xbox was getting old...are just complaining up a storm about this and that..
I want fast travel,
I want an action house,
I want dungeon finders, loot drops, tokens and quest, solo story lines, pretty much everyting that the kids who play assasins creed and black ops want. Tons of shallow scripted content and anti community systems that dont belong in MMOS.
It is soo easy to see how the devs that just want to sell copies can get sucked into this casual player crap. Becasue it just staggers me the amount of people who want an MMO to be just a socially shallow crapshoot.
MJ is a G*d damn savior.. Stick to your guns sir.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
www.CeaselessGuild.com
Comments
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
I want an action house,
I started playing MMOs with UO.
I want a goddamn auction house unless MJ can really really really really really spin shitty player shops as something worth a damn without causing me hassle when I want to buy something. I don't mind player shops in addition to an AH (a la Aion), but no AH = bad mojo.
I want dungeon finders,
Group finder / raid finder will be important for an RvR-based game where grouping is mandatory. Naturally, it should have selection criteria based on PvP aspects, like "keeps | skirmish", "small group | large group", etc. But, it will be important to improve the casual player experience.
solo story lines,
A solo story line will be mandatory in order to get any non-hardcore player into the game. I even want one and I consider myself a pretty avid fan of RvR.
However, it should be more of a "RvR bootcamp solo storyline" where the [optional] intro sequence introduces you to the RvR mechanics in a relatively stable manner. E.g. like Nordland. In other words, distill down the "intro level 1 - 50" into 2 hours of "PvP intro" content.
I tend to agree. I feel like the last 5-7 years in mmo industry has just been reskinned pve mmo's over and over again.
I hate to keep throwing out "themepark" mmo's, but that's really the best way I know how to describe it lol.
There's a lot about them that are fun, but I feel like once you've played a couple, you've played them all. They just get reskinned with new graphics/animiations/IP's etc..., and resold by a different publisher/dev.
For teenagers just entering the MMO scene, sure that could be fun because you don't know it's been done to death, but it's definitely getting stale/old for us MMO vets who have played 10+ years.
Camelot unchained is truley exciting, for the really fascinating ways it's pulling together new and old into something very truley at its core very different. This game is going to play completely differently than most, if not all of what's out there.
Not all of the ideas for CU are innovative, but I WOULD say the way they're being pieced together, and the structure in which that is happening is innovative.
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
Sadly, this is true. But along with that, shooter games have gotten worse and worse as well. The Call of Duty playerbase has pretty much ruined the competative shooter.
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
Most of the people who are funding this game are former DAOC players.
DAOC had some forms of fast travel. In old frontiers (OF), you could port from your border keep to a portal keep in the most distant zone of an enemy realm with a short run to their farthest keep. IOW you as an Alb could port from Castle Sauvage to Emain Macha then go take Dun Crauchon. If they had one of your relics, you could capture one of their keeps and create a Corpse Summoner. Then when a member of your realm died, he could release directly to that keep and be rezzed. In new frontiers (NF), you could port to 4 of your own keeps if you owned the keep and all of its towers. If you took certain enemy keeps and all of their towers, you could then port there too. Some variation on these kinds of porting would be fine for CU. Mark said something about crafters building portal structures. That could work.
The alternative is everybody has to run out from the safe zone every time they release and run all the way across the map to get back to the action. It would be lame especially with stealthers and gank groups patrolling near the safe zone to pick people off. There should be limited porting and ways to shut down the porting to allow your realm time to take keeps etc. before defenders can arrive.
Similarly DAOC had consignment merchants and a market explorer to find what houses were selling the item you want in its housing. It worked fine aside from certain limitations of the search screen and the cap on the amount of gold a merchant could hold. Requiring all sales be done by spamming a trade channel and sending tells sounds like a huge step backwards to me and very annoying. That's one of the design choices Mark has made that I least like.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
I'm not trying to offend when I say this, just being honest, but this game isn't for you. It's not a casual friendly game. Mark Jacobs is making a game for the old school RvR crowd. Players who understand that to have an impact on RvR you need to be part of a group or guild, you have to be dedicated, you have to be unconcerned with the trappings of the modern MMO like tiered kit chasing, and PvE raids every other night.
The game isn't being aimed at a wide audience. Mark knows full well that this will be a niche game and won't attract the numbers that more "normal" MMO's get. That's why it's subscription based. No rapid turn over of F2P casual players but a core player base of dedicated RvR fans who are willing to pay the monthly fee for the game they can't get anywhere else because other Devs are too busy catering to the masses.
I understand perfectly what you're looking for and why, but you won't find it here. There are plenty of MMO's out there that will cater to your requirements. This one is for those of us who want to play a different game. It won't appeal to the majority and the number of subscribers will be small, but the developers don't care about that. They're more interested in making the game that they want to play, and hopfully some of us will come along for the ride.
Wow, I don't remember any of that porting around from daoc rvr, but I played before new frontiers.
The only porting I remember from back then was the original way you get to enemy realms for rvr. The portal pad where you had to wear the necklace to the enemy realm you want. (neck check!!!).
That was far from fast travel. Sure it was a portal, but it wasn't fast by any means. You had to stand there, what, 10 minutes just to port back? then get your group back together, and run from there to wherever you were fighting before? (could be 3 or 4 zones away).
I don't remember any of that other stuff to portal straight to a keep in rvr. When I played you had to physically run to every keep. I remember the fun of trying to keep enemy realms from getting inside the keep we were attacking.
Also, I don't blame kids for playing what's available. They're just kids, they're gonna play the games that are out, like I did back in 2000-2001 originally with daoc, and play them the way they were designed/intended to be played.
It's the publishers/devs that have steered the mmo industry in the direction it has gone the last 5-7 years.
That's why I think CU is such a big deal, and getting all this hype/excitement. They're daring to take a very different approach (both in funding, development, and principles/playstyle).
I don't think the whole mmo genre has to change direction, but it definitely needs to have options in multiple directions. The way they're all going the same direction right now sickens me, and I want something different.
Heck that's why even with all the modern/newer themepark mmos, I've been playing and OLD one EVE online the last 6 months. It's the only one that holds my interest any more LOL.
If you took eve, made it a fantasy game where you control a character instead of a spaceship, and made it tri realm instead of free for all, I would play that forever LOL.
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
DAoC had a marketplace "Auction House" search, but the player had to physically go to the player's house to make the purchase. It will likely be implemented the same, otherwise goods and services of some players would never be known due to time differences, scheduling, etc.
As far as a group finder, I would imagine there will likely be some form of open goup system, similiar to the one found in Warhammer Online, to encourage grouping.
However, solo story lines? Your story line is you playing your character and experiencing the game itself through everyday interacting. Sadly, if player needs to have their hand held to tell a story of their own character then the character's story probably shouldn't be told in the first place.
MJ has excpressed a lot of room for wiggle within the implementation of alot of the ideas during developement and the backers forums /internal/alpha/beta testing.
But I also think he's said if what you want out of this game directly contradicts his foundational principles, then this game isn't for you. It's a niche game. I know he said that somewhere.
There are plenty of games with auction houses / dungeon finders / single player mmo. There would be no reason for him to try to create another clone of those games. There are already dozens out there like that. I don't know why anyone would want him to go back on his foundational principles, and make a completely differently designed game than he's already stated either.
He's making something different here, with increased required socialization that many of us miss from our older gaming days. There's a lot of people out there that don't understand, or don't want, the new mmo trend of having almost no interaction with your fellow gamers. Newer mmos have removed the need for socialization, because it increases their playerbase, but it also turns off those of us that play for that reason (among many).
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
I completely agree with the OP.
The games get more and more shallow and easy entertainment.
What i hope from CU is a stable and good base that concentrates on PvP fights, with some "minor" addons around that base.
I dont want that much fancy stuff around it and i dont want too many tools, that make players switch of their brains.
That together with a comitted comunity, is what i am looking for.
Alone the discussions about the mechanics (mostly before KS started), give me a good feeling, because i know, that everybody thats involved here, really thinks about it.
I disagree with your second paragrah. Issues like gank groups patrolling near the safe zone to pick off reinforcements is exactly why too much fast travel is a bad thing. That's overall realm strategy. It requires to guys that just got wiped to organize themselves to get back out to the battle. Perhaps they have to take a longer path, or maybe they have to call for help from groups in the field opening up attack opportunities for the enemies. It's a real punishment for wiping and having to release and a real benefit for the victorious side. I don't really think long travels out to the field should be the only way, but at times I think it should be required. Something like DAoC's 10 min portal to Emain, with a milegate chokepoint so a dedicated side could bottle up people only coming from that direction.
On a market explorer type thing, I'm less opinionated. I see both arguments. In reality, I don't think it will matter that much. The dynamics of a pure RvR game with a pure player crafted economy will make this game very guild-centric. I imagine we'll end up getting most things from the guild crafters made from the resources we fight to be able to aquire.
Until the game engine is totally flushed out, the game mechanics can change. Engines are the expensive part of game development.
That is all I am going to say don't want to be call a troll because i disagree with people with the CU-rose coloured glasses on.
Yes, its all WoW's fault. Makes perfect sense.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
While a lot of younger people play MMO's there are a lot of adults who play as well.
I am in my 40's, and I don't think I would play any MMO for any amount of time if it did not have:
1. Solo-ability
2. Some sort of group finder.
3. Some sort of fast travel.
4. An auction house.
You are one of those people that seem to associate the difficulty of a game based on the inconveniences it offers. Spending less time to get the same things done doesn't make the game "easier", it makes it less time consuming. Just because a game has a lot of strong solo content doesn't mean the solo content has to be easier. Do you see what I am getting at?
I played EQ.. which was a "hard" mmo, for lack of a better term. I had my own 6-man group that I played on 4 PC's. I would never want to go back to that sort of game where I had to play my own group, or be FORCED to group to do any content. Old school gaming doesn't mean "better". I'm also not a casual player. I understand that people want better rewards for the time they put in. This is not a wild concept, but it also doesn't mean that you can't have all the things you listed because non-hardcore players don't need/want them. So you'd rather walk for 20 mins to get to the area you are going, as opposed to taking some sort of fast travel and being there instantly, or, within 1 minute? That's not hardcore, that's just a waste of time.
--Sagorn
I'm not trying to offend when I say this, just being honest, but this game isn't for you.
Then it won't get funded and it will crash and burn.
It's not a casual friendly game. Mark Jacobs is making a game for the old school RvR crowd. Players who understand that to have an impact on RvR you need to be part of a group or guild, you have to be dedicated, you have to be unconcerned with the trappings of the modern MMO like tiered kit chasing, and PvE raids every other night.
[mod edit] What part of player shops makes for better RvR? What part of player shops has anything to do with a group or guild?Using bad oldschool mechanics just be be oldschool is fucking retarded.
I don't think you quite comprehend the playerbase of an RvR game. For RvR to be successful, you need population. You need the emain zerg. What kind of player makes up that zerg? The casual pug. Without them, the PvP drags, and dies. If you want to be successful, you need the casual RvR player.
CU is supposed to be an RvR game, not a hardcore game for elitist 8-man no-school no-job, no-life asshats.
I understand perfectly what you're looking for and why, but you won't find it here. There are plenty of MMO's out there that will cater to your requirements.
[mod edit]
However, solo story lines? Your story line is you playing your character and experiencing the game itself through everyday interacting. Sadly, if player needs to have their hand held to tell a story of their own character then the character's story probably shouldn't be told in the first place.
Depends if you want anyone to play the game. Many players may try CU to see what "oldschool RvR" is about, but if they can't even find where to start or get rolled without doing much, they're just going to leave and play GW2 or something they're already familiar with.
As I said in my post, I would envision the "solo story line" as a 2 hour pseudo-PvE RvR track where it's basically like a solo mission in an FPS game before you go play multiplayer. You know, so the player's not a complete drag on your team. E.g. a tutorial.
The one useful thing about PvE in games is that it does give the player some time to become slightly proficient with their class. That doesn't mean "PvE" should be in CU, but it does mean that the player should have the option (or not?) of some solo / structured content so they don't immediately fail epicly in RvR where teammates are relying on them.
Because that's going to make players like me talk shit to them in chat and they'll be upset and leave the game. That or I'll get a temp ban from a CSR.
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
I kinda agree about the auction house. Those mentioning consignment merchants in daoc have bad or selective memories if they can't remember that you could instantly buy everything from the search npc. If they do the same with stalls, they'll be good though. I think it was a 20% markup to instantly buy things, so running was incentivized and if the player is there then you have interaction. That said, running from stall to stall won't stop me from playing the game.
Those mentioning old frontiers didn't have fast travel were just didn't know about keep release. I do think it needs to stay very very limited.
LFG mechanics would be ok, but honestly I never found them useful except for dungeons in games where composition was an afterthought for the most part. Not the best way to go about rvr if you want to be productive.
Solo story... while I do miss epic quests for daoc, I just don't think a solo story even fits in the game.
It's a tutorial goddammit.
Sidenote: Odaman stop stalking me from game to game XD.
Lets talk about AH's and DaoC. yes, the consignment merchants were searchable and yes you could buy directly from them with a markup. There were other things though that you needed to talk specifically to a crafter to get done, spellcrafting and alchemy.
Even to this day you can find players constantly spamming region chat looking for a spellcrafter to imbue some armor for their templates. I'd imagine CU will be similar, your basic items, potions, siege, even basic gear will be easy to obtain but just like a spellcrafter in DaoC if you want the best armor/weopons you are going to need to talk to someone specifically to build it for you. Not only that you are going to have to escort that person to a mighty forge in the middle of a hotly contested zone so they can build the item you request.
MJ has also mentioned for basic materials like wood, leather straps, metal that an AH isn't out of the picture. Though this would be restricted to just the basic materials. You will never be able to buy weopons or armor from such a system.
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
This I do not agree with at all. Its the very opposite.
Story lines, 90% of the people rush thru, it guides you to end game as fast as possible. Often having less game time than your average rpg console game.
Compared to a sandbox for example, where i can make my own story line, take part in different features and game mechanics on a whim, and taking my time in the area I am at.
To me the new aged mmo's are more hardcore as everyone rushes to max level, doesnt want to grind (but dont mind end game grinding?), and skips creativity.
Story line last a few weeks for your average games, then its dried up and you wait weeks to months for new content. I prefer making my own content, taking my time, exploring the depths of the game, and playing casual.
In simplest terms: Conflicting design objectives.
Ok I'll talk about another OP topic. Group finder and soloability. Both are in CU! Just not in the way you'd imagine.
In DaoC there are plenty of places for a person to go solo. In fact solo'ing was one of my favorite playstyles. Add in the fact that any class could kill any other class (under the right circumstances) solo'ing became extremely fun. You might even get an awesome title like "Lone Enforcer" to display showing how awesome of a soloer you are. Even crafters I'd imagine will be able to solo. In DaoC there were plenty of times I took towers with both rams and trebs. Or maybe as a crafter you venture out into a risky area and try and mine as much as possible before someone finds you and trys to gank you. I'd imagine once you get to that area you set up traps around the perimeter of where you are harvesting. Sort of like an early warning system that someone is nearby.
I haven't even begun to talk about how awesome solo'ing in The Depths is going to be. I remember in DaoC Darkness Falls was a stealthers favorite place to solo.
Ok now on to Group Finder. This one is a bit easier, just type in region "Region: Caster Looking for 8man, or Caster looking for small group, or caster looking for duo"
In DaoC there is a staging area where everyone gathers to form up their groups. This was in both OF and NF and will be in CU. I've never had a terribly hard time finding a group in DaoC using this system. Thus there is no real need for a group finder in CU. Now if you are talking about Raiding, that is even easier to find a group especially if they take the battlegroup system from DaoC. In DaoC the battlegroup leader can actually see who in the battlegroup is solo and can help all the solo'ers in that battlegroup make their own little group in the BG (battlegroup) If you ever played Albion you would know how easy it is to join the zerg and contribute to your realms ability to take keeps/towers and even relics.
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
Stop feeding the trolls.
All that needs to be said is the following:
"If that's what you are looking for, this game is not for you. I wish you luck in your journeys!"
The backers overwhelmingly support the game MJ is describing and I expect that to continue.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!