It is without question an MMO, but it is getting rid of many legacy PC-RPG mechanics. So I guess you can argue about the latter half of MMORPG.
Really? For instance, how many PC-RPG rely on a trinity system? Skyrim? Oblivion? Dragon Age? Neverwinter Nights? The old Ultima series? Icewind Dale? Baldur's Gate?
Dang... none of them has that trinity thing.
There not only one way to do things. It's not because EQ introduced stuff like the trinity and threat based combat that it's the best thing ever.
It was time a AAA MMORPG developer had the balls to make a game without these obsolete mechanics, since in the last 8 years, the genre stagnated producing bad WoW clones after worse WoW clones.
I almost always agree with what you say, but I just wanted to point that Dragon Age (at least DA:O) uses the trinity system. That's all though Keep up the good fight!
Really? For instance, how many PC-RPG rely on a trinity system? Skyrim? Oblivion? Dragon Age? Neverwinter Nights? The old Ultima series? Icewind Dale? Baldur's Gate?
Dang... none of them has that trinity thing.
There not only one way to do things. It's not because EQ introduced stuff like the trinity and threat based combat that it's the best thing ever.
It was time a AAA MMORPG developer had the balls to make a game without these obsolete mechanics, since in the last 8 years, the genre stagnated producing bad WoW clones after worse WoW clones.
I think WoW is a glaring example of how the "trinity" is a pretty much failing system. Yes, WoW is madly successful and I had a blast playing it, but man, the fights... especially the boss fights... so damned stagnant. Each and every one. There's no variety or chaos within a fight at all, everything is tied to a script. You succeed by two things alone... having enough gear and following the script, and that's it. That's the plague the trinity has imposed on MMOs that people can't or won't see. You're not allowed to be you, just an actor on the stage following a script, and if you fail the script you fail the fight, period.
Removing the trinity allows you to think on your feet and react to situations as you need to by using the skills you have when you need to for the best effects. Skills have multiple facets to them, not only doing damage, control or support, usually a blend of each and many have post-cast effects that can change things up quite a bit. There's no script you simply must follow, you can take anyone and be successful through a variety of means.
Back in Lich King (I quit pre-Cata) I was a heck of a good pally tank or marksman hunter. But... that's all I was too... a pally tank or a marksman (dps) hunter. There was no variety. Just stagnant tanking or pew-pewing while staring at recount or the threat-meter. Every fight winds up exactly the same. Follow the script. The script may vary, but the fights wind up nothing more than muscle memory and a barely engaged mind. The curse of the trinity is that it comes at the expense of thought.
All great points. I love WoW and the trinity system, but I also embrace change and GW2 is a step in the right direction.
edit: snip
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
They set to remove everything bad and annoying things about MMO.
But forgot that all those bad and annoying things are part of the what makes a MMO.
What you got is a very fun, albeit shallow game that is NOT MMO.
Except this , and go back having fun.
Or install Age of Wushu, EVE
Or TERA...even Vanguard.
Not everyone is a masochist and want to subject himslef to countless hours of annoyances and "bad parts" of the game for some promise of fun that never actually comes, just more and more annoyances and bad parts.
And redefining "deep" as "annoying and bad"...just lol
Yes, GW2 is guilty of being very fun...guess not everyones cup of tea
I've found if you think about it too hard, you naturally come to the realization that of COUSE nothing in a MMO really matters or is worth anything - it's just a game.
It's all about having fun.
The moment you stop having fun, the moment a game "dies" for you.
Thankfully a good MMO is like a Phoenix, being reborn or reviving our interest - and really thankfully GW2 is B2P so you can come back any time without further financial investment.
But I agree with Tinybina - perhaps it is just years and years of forced co-dependancy via the Holy Trinity, but I first hit that wall in GW2 the very minute I played through my first dungeon.
I think the trinity-free model worked in say UO because there was no instanced, small group content.
Any dungeon you'd dive into was open world and it didn't matter if you were alone or with a party of 2 or 3 or 10.
You could find a way to win and it was truly an adventure.
I think GW2 would have done amazingly well by me (and others I'm sure) if that kind of content was included instead of a repetitive instanced dungeon grind.
Very odd to me the whole open world game was scalable and free from group composition restrictions and very co-op friendly, and then the dungeons were this wierd bastard child of trinity-free combat design and repetitive instance dungeon design.
I feel they felt they had to include instaned dungeons to draw in the "WoW" crowd - but you don't try and compete with WoW directly: you can't out WoW WoW no matter how hard you try (Rift) - I think it was a poor design choice and they would have been much, much better served in the long run with open world multi-level dungeons rather than instanced.
First of all there is a lot to love about this game. The graphics, music, questing, dungeons, dynamic events, cooperative atmosphere and fantastic community make this one of the best mmorpg games I have ever played. I have enjoyed my time in Guild wars 2 for over 6 months now leveling both Mesmer and Thief to 80, spending hundreds of hours in the game's immersive and dynamic PvE / PvP content.
I believe that this is by far one of the best mmorpg games developed to date hands down.
With all of the above said, in a matter of 90 minutes I went from being an officer to a guild of 104 players,doing WvW and leveling my alt characters to deciding to uninstall the game and likely leave for a very long period of time.
Now I am sure that everyone here is going to likely find my reasons for feeling the need to leave the game so spontaneously a bit bizarre and maybe just plain nuts; but the following two reasons for leaving hit me so hard and so fast that I simply lost every little bit of motivation to play the game. I went from wanting to advance my character and kicking butt in PvP to wanting nothing to do with the game all in a matter of minutes.
While having a great time leveling my newly created warrior today with a few of my guild members we decided to go to the vendors to sell and upgrade our gear / loot. When I arrived at the vendor I looked through the weapons list eager to get my hands on a very particular type of weapon. To my surprise this weapon was not only unavailable, but didn't actually exist in the game! What I am referring to is the two handed axe or Greataxe. Now I do not know how in the world I played the game for over 6 months and world cleared two characters to 80 without noticing this weapon was missing in the game. I immediately started feeling a very powerful sense of disconnect with my character, but I played along as if nothing was wrong all the while a heavy feeling of dissonance was taking hold within me. After about 30 min I began to notice that I didn't really feel like a warrior should feel in a game, or at least how I believe a warrior should feel. I was not using the quintessential warrior weapon! (e.g., I felt like a ranger would if he didn't have the option to choose a longbow as a weapon, only crossbows, short bows, and throwing weapons) — needless to say I just wasn't enjoying myself so I decided to go back to playing on my Mesmer. After about 15 min of playing on my Mesmer it hit me... I don't feel any different playing with a Mesmer vs. a Thief, vs. a Warrior, it all feels the same.
Now don't get the wrong idea, I don't mean the play style which is drastically different, I mean the inherent need to belong, the need to have a job, the feeling of being a necessary part of a cohort group of individuals. In my opinion this game lacks that feeling despite being such an immensely cooperative game. Everyone is a healer, everyone can do damage, everyone can essentially do everything.... that in turn makes me feel like anything I do has no purpose, no meaning, no real significance. I didn't notice it before but this beautifully crafted game suddenly felt as hollow as a Christmas sphere. The game felt like a shell, and suddenly, my entire perception and experience changed. Everything felt empty.
And so, I left. Just like that, I explained how I felt to my guild...naturally everyone was shocked. I ran the website for the guild and gave all of the necessary information to the GM so that she could appoint someone else to run it. I said my goodbyes and left.
Why am I posting here?
I have no idea, maybe I just want to hear what you guys have to say about my experience.
I still feel a very huge sense of emptiness when I think of GW2. There is no denying the fact that I loved the game for 6+ months. I was committed to the game, helped to run my own guild, had spent over 800 hours playing, and had formed a very successful WvW / PvE circle of close friends. The game was an absolutely phenomenal ride while I felt fulfilled, but once I started to really think about the game, once I started to think about my role, my class, my decisions, my choices, I began to realize how little it all mattered. In traditional mmos If I played a healer the entire guild would celebrate (healers are always needed) if I played a Warrior or a Tank I knew that I was responsible for keeping my group alive. It brought about a sense of duty and yes even pride after a successful dungeon run. All of these things feel missing from Guild Wars 2. What is surprising is that it took me that long to realize it. I guess I was too busy having fun with the game to notice it. It wasn't until that particular moment where I wanted to equip a Great Axe as a warrior and noticed it was not in the game that I began to think about the game's limitations and discovered how I felt.
So what do you guys think?
Am I nuts?
Are my conclusions legitimate in your opinion?
Has anything like this ever happened to you guys?
I would love to get a discussion going about this because I am really quite perplexed about the whole experience.
Looking forward to reading your replies.
Thanks.
Rough, when our image of us being unique snowflakes melts into so much watter.
If i were you I'd grab a helmet because you are going to find out that this is the way of life.
I think WoW is a glaring example of how the "trinity" is a pretty much failing system. Yes, WoW is madly successful and I had a blast playing it, but man, the fights... especially the boss fights... so damned stagnant. Each and every one. There's no variety or chaos within a fight at all, everything is tied to a script. You succeed by two things alone... having enough gear and following the script, and that's it. That's the plague the trinity has imposed on MMOs that people can't or won't see. You're not allowed to be you, just an actor on the stage following a script, and if you fail the script you fail the fight, period.
I'd argue that WoW, specially before they started completely dumbing down the game and the classes, is also a good exemple of the best the trinity can be. You are right about the scripting, but at least Blizzard are damned good at it. EQ back then didn't come even remotely close, the pre-WoW EQ clones where pretty much all about tank and spank, and most if not all post-WoW clones failed to copy the "master" when it comes to scripting ingenuosity.
I agree that a lot of the fights are/were fun. The "I fixed the broken slime pipes" one for example sticks in memory. But, still, once you learn the dance all someone has to do is play the music and you dance. That was it. The scripts were great for a lot of them, but your fun was still scripted. Personally, I see that (now at least) as the biggest flaw with the trinity system.
It is without question an MMO, but it is getting rid of many legacy PC-RPG mechanics. So I guess you can argue about the latter half of MMORPG.
Trinity is not inherent RPG mehcanic. It was just used in some games to make combat as simplistic as possible.
But we hit standard behaviour here: lot of people dont want change, they found their comfort zone, they got too used to trinity to change now. I mean in their time... ... .... ;P
... open world multi-level dungeons rather than instanced.
Not quoting the whole post because it's damned long, but the GW2 world is full of non-instanced multi level dungeons... every single cave is an unique design, the big ones have several levels and several events happening inside often including champion mobs. And all the jumping puzzle are also a special kind of dungeon, many have mobs inside too.
Beside that, the new guild events are open world content. You gain laurels doing open world content.
GW2 doesn't force you into dungeons. The world is full of things to do, and even more each month with the new patch.
Yeah, that is a fair point.
I guess for me, I see a game that puts in instanced dungeons and puts points in them to grind for and I feel like it'd mandatory.
So maybe it's just a perspective thing, but I don't think I ever found or played in an area like what you describe, where as in UO everyone and I mean EVERYONE knew where all the open world dungeons were...
Games today concentrate too much on balance and if even one class is slightly more powerful than the other then everyone jumps up and down screaming and shouting. The NERF cries go out! Personally, I liked City of Heroes because you had several play styles which included Tanks, Scrappers, Healers, Mob Control, and then there were people that were a mixed bag. Obviously, groups made up of a good mix of classes performed better but the nice thing is that everyone had a role. Many of the augmentations sought in the game were to increase your value in that role. The down side is that in Player vs Player that certain classes fared better but most people had an alternate character for that. MMOs need to go back to set roles that allow players to be a mixed bag if they choose but they won't be an expert in a given niche. Sadly, we are in the day of microtransactions where games are put out to squeeze the the financial lifeblood out of a player and then the game withers and dies.
1. Weapons frequently make little sense relative to class.. Examples: all the guardians running around with staffs, Mesmers with greatswords etc. Its not the lack of a two handed axe but weapons that dont fit the "historic" concept of the profession.
2. I love to create all the race/class combinations. Out of them I will find 1 or 2 that I just love. In GW2 I cannot find any combination of which I am really trilled. Not having a favorite toon makes the game feel like something is missing and leaves a sense of why bother after reaching whatever goal you set, be it max level or something else.
3. There is a feeling of lack of power in the game due to down scaling. I miss not being able to take a level 80 into Queensland and just mop up the whole area or at least explore without constantly being attacked. Sometimes it makes you fell good to take a higher level toon and wipe out the boss that you just couldn't quite manage at a lower level. But this is not the game design.
4. The game is well done overall, and definitely worth the money spent. My two sons have left the game and I am down to largely running daileys. The excitement factor is gone all to soon. Maybe it is just burnout from to many years of playing these types of games, however; EQ2, Vanguard, WOW, LOTR, to name a few held my interest far longer. In this my sons and I agree, something is missing from GW2
1. Weapons frequently make little sense relative to class.. Examples: all the guardians running around with staffs, Mesmers with greatswords etc. Its not the lack of a two handed axe but weapons that dont fit the "historic" concept of the profession.
Eh... hang on, why doesn't the greatsword make sense as the ultimate in ranged weaponry? After all, it has the longest blade to channel arcane energies down towards your foe. Sure, grabbing it by the handle and swinging it around seems silly, it's a ranged weapon after all...
I almost want to piss(Like actually stand there and urinate) on all Holy Trinity Video Games, they got y'all minds screwed up into thinking "No holy trinity no MMORPG."
Fuck oughtta here with that.
Maybe not video games but just the Holy Trinity, if only it where an object that was tangible, people treat that concept like a God, like a religion in fact.
Seriously not beating around the bush if you believe that an MMORPG is not either an MMO or RPG or an MMORPG because it doesn't rely on a Holy Trinity
You.Need.Help.Period.
Edited: Freaking alcohol beverages lmao.
Yea Holy Trinity really been screwing with peoples mind, I'm so glad I don't have this desease.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
You know,it's not my place to call someone "nuts" as I can be pretty eccentric in my own life. but you came to this conclusion after two level 80's? And the only thing that set these thoughts into motion was that you couldn't buy a two handed axe?
Does this completely invalidate your two other characters that I presume you enjoyed playing?
Well, I would say it's eccentric.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
They set to remove everything bad and annoying things about MMO.
But forgot that all those bad and annoying things are part of the what makes a MMO.
What you got is a very fun, albeit shallow game that is NOT MMO.
Except this , and go back having fun.
Or install Age of Wushu, EVE
Or TERA...even Vanguard.
Not everyone is a masochist and want to subject himslef to countless hours of annoyances and "bad parts" of the game for some promise of fun that never actually comes, just more and more annoyances and bad parts.
And redefining "deep" as "annoying and bad"...just lol
Yes, GW2 is guilty of being very fun...guess not everyones cup of tea
I agree. What many people define as "deep" mechanics, are simply poor mechanics made to be more complicated than they need to be, for the sake of being overly complicated. Making statements that GW2 isn't a mmo also shows a large amount of ignorance as well.
The misconception that GW2 is shallow is most likely attributed to a couple of factors. First, it doesn't seem that many people can wrap their heads around a loose trinity system. The majority seem to enjoy roles being defined and having your gameplay limited to a certain amount of choices. These limited roles are often considered "deep", because then with the clear and defined role, people can delve into learning the mechanics behind that specific role. Secondly, GW2 isn't well balanced when it comes to builds quite yet. The game has been out around 8 months, so it's not surprising that this is an issue, but it's a real issue that needs to be addressed. Many weapons for the various professions are simply not very good choices, and the weapons that are good choices very often blow anything else out of the water. Additionally, the utility skills and many elite skills are a little too specific for their uses.
GW2 suffers a bit in a similar area where I felt DCUO suffered. The weapons have a large emphasis placed upon them. The majority of your damage and abilities come directly from your weapon choices. However, the utility skills (or powers in DCUO), only seem to act as a compliment to the weapons or are temporary boosts to your character in general. Again, many of the utility skills in GW2 aren't very good selections in a general sense, but the ones that are, blow the competition out of the water.
I feel that if the weapon and utility skill selections in GW2 were a bit more equal, we would see more depth added in terms of working builds. Additionally, I feel they need to rework the utility slots a bit as well. Add more interesting choices to make those decisions more difficult.
Yeah, I don't think Great Axe (there was an item called Great Axe, but it was one handed) has ever existed in a Guild Wars game. In fact the Great Sword didn't even exist in the first one. I do believe one reason for them not having all weapons was that so they "can add more later in the game" when neeed or some such. Aside from all that, I feel like my warrior is a warrior at max level when I have my beserk rage, double axe, bow, and sword/shield armor set if I need to "tank" in dungeons. Though ultimately I feel like my warrior is a Barbarian more so than a warrior, as I have multiple shouts, a whirlwind attack with my axes, jump attacks, ground stomps, going beserk etc. Granted when I rush into battle, I could also have abilities that will cause enemies to flee when I yell at them, but most utility skills aside from the shouts or passives are fairly useless due to needlessly long cooldowns.
At present my favorite build would probably be the tank/healer build of the warrior whereby I can pretty much soak up tremendous damage with a sword/shield and heal my non-plate allies up to almost full life in three short shouts (depending if they have vit for some reason) when needed. Though when I'm in that gear, it looks more so like I'm a Knight (personal preference in terms of aesthetics, but the feeling is also such) rather than some enraged warrior wanting to chop heads off. I still don't get tired of just roaming the maps, engaging in random activities that show up and overall enjoying myself as if it were a real world and not one with a thousand exclamation points over NPC heads. But I have also felt a disconnect by the traditional Everquest and FFXI systems this game has what with their dragon timers, and the spawn windows; guilds and large groups of people just camp these areas for the bosses to spawn so that they can get their 00.001% chance at a precursor or whatever, and they keep on making it worse and worse with each update as they want to limit peoples' ability to acquire said items and or earn money for the economy's sake.
It's status quo for me in this game, as I never intended to play it as a MMO but rather a world to just travel and play make believe knight or something as only this game really allows. Though each time they nerf a viable way to make a couple gold an hour makes me less interested and I just don't have fun in games that have economies that make me poor and have to worry about game gold just for something simple as aesthetics when there's a real world element having to manage money as well. It's getting to the point where I'm just getting burnt out like you, and not even wanting to log in for a couple hour session of just roaming the country side in my knight armor and pretending to protect it from bandits and the like, or going on long journies and seeing new things (there's almost always something new you didn't notice the last time you visted a place). Though perhaps I'm being to critical, here I am treating the game as pretend, while also hating on the pretend economy. But it's a worry I'd rather not have if the goal is stress relief while playing a game (which was my original intention for guild wars 2 in not having to worry about gearing so I can participate in the next patch's content over and over again).
I'm not even sure they know what they're doing or where they want to take the game at this point. Though I guess whenever they release information on the next expansion we'll have a more prevalent source of information to try and understand their direction. I know their goal is to improve on most aspects of the core game, but at the same time they nerf things aggressively and in most cases either needlessly or in an amateurish fashion. I have guildmates who have purchased five copies of the game since a lot of aspects of their daily routines were locked for the account and not individual characters, just so that they could continue to do it five times per day. Just makes me depressed as a whole.
This was technically their first MMO, as Guild Wars was more so along the lines of a Diablo game with chat rooms and PvE that's restricted to 2-8 players at once. So I was expecting a lot of problems, but as a whole some of their decisions just take the parts of a game I don't like and made them worse (as a personal thing of mine). This is a game where I actually miss hub questing, simply because it was at least a viable way of making money (even if small, it provided direction in some way) other than grinding an area or dungeon or 1-5 hour spawn in the hopes to get lucky, with most other options nerfed when someone posts a youtube video or mentions it on the forums. The dailies in this game just give me a Laurel, a jug and a couple silver pieces and can only be done once per account per day. /sadface
They made such a great game; they focused a lot on little details and physics and how if you jump on a fence at an angle it will recognize one foot on the top and the other on the bottom. Or how grass and bushes sway when you move on them, or fire an arrow at them, or if you dance or use an emote on uneven terrain, your feet are always to the ground as opposed to the emote being stuck in mid air at parts. The combat is great and has a lot of tactics and different builds you could try out (though still dependant on new gear sets usually, some of which are getting really expensive and require substantial grind now for those who just logged in to have fun). I would play this game all over again if given a chance, but it's starting to be like how I view other games in that it had it's golden months (or years), and I would rather be playing those again.
Will definitely play the expansion when it comes out to see how they fix some systems or just to experience the new land and how they develop new stories (also to see how the other continents are fairing!). At it's core it's still a quality game, just suffers a bit from mismanagement by a fairly inexperienced MMO team in my opinion.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I've heard of a few people quitting because they felt like they weren't contributing because they didn't have a clearly defined role. That they didn't stand out, weren't recognized for what they done because everyone can do everything to a lesser extent (as long as they take the right gear and traits!).
And you know what; when you think about how parties interact that reasoning doesn't wash for me. You know what I thought when playing with about 90% of the people I did in WoW? It ranged somewhere between "Oh well, at least we have a healer and not another DPS" to "Well at least he is competant and knows what dispell is" or "At least he isn't drooling on his keyboard and standing in the fire" the 10% that made me think more positive than that are still the same people who stand out in GW2. How do they stand out? They play better overall. They last longer, they do more damage, they cc better, they work better with their team mates and protect them when they are vulnerable and they do all these things much better than your average player does. When it comes to standing out there is no difference between doing so in GW2 and doing so in any traditional Holy Trinity system, the only difference is the Holy Trinity system gives you the facade of being more important than you really are. You're no more unique in your role and playstyle in WoW or Rift than you are in GW2, you are what you make yourself. And if you want to stand out from the crowd then you play your chosen role well, better than others, that's what gets you noticed. The only real difference between the games is that GW2 blurs the lines of what is expected from each class but that in itself isn't a reason to not stand out or feel like you didn't make a difference. In fact I would argue that it allows you to stand out easier by coming up with more creative and efficient ways to boost your party's effectiveness.
Try it, go tank some dungeons with an elementalist after being laughed at only to have them whisper you afterwards telling you how amazing the run was (I told the guy I would give him 10g if I died more than he did). Try playing WvW with the same elementalist and taking on multiple people at the same time, distracting them from the siege and giving your side a numbers advantage because half of the enemy are too busy trying to zerg you. (Go watch this video for an example. Sure the people he is fighting might be bad but do you think he didn't stand out for those people who seen him or had to fight him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VREQMoqQUQc) That's the sort of stuff that makes you stand out from the crowd and it's no different than any other game. It all requires the same amount of effort. Just because you were a tank or healer in a different game didn't make you stand out, it didn't make you better.. it just massaged your ego. There's a reason why there's a stereotype of tanks in WoW being assholes and feeling like they deserve everything under the sun and it's not because they are unique or awesome players and this isn't the kind of behaviour we should be looking to promote through basic game design, especially when said game is focused around the player to player interactions.
I think GW2, and other games that don't follow the holy trinity, have it done the right way. The playing field is more even, it's up to us as individuals to be creative. It's up to us to play well and to stand out from the crowd based on our own merits and contributions rather than the fact a party needed a healer and you were the only dude around.
I was a huge proponent of eliminating the trinity and raiding, but now i see how important both are to PVE and guild cohesion. I miss both a lot more than i thought i would.
I love GW2 but it's main issue is that there isn't enough PVE for guilds to do together in groups larger than 5. Sure you can get a bunch of 5-mans and go do guild missions, but it isn't the same. Don't even get me started how poorly those were implemented anyways.
I feel what the OP is saying. I really wanted to like GW2, the idea is great. Unfortunatly for me, I only lasted 1 month. I hit max level on my thief, crafted a set of good gear, did a few dungeons, and just felt meh. For me, there was nothing to keep me logging back in. PvP was alright, but not good enough to keep my attention (maybe it was too zergy for me?). I think for me personally, I need some sandbox elements to keep me interested.
GW2, however, continues to provide a wonderful alternative for those who don't enjoy the trinity as much as you do.
It continues to do well and I am quite happy that I do not have to spam LF healer. The worst we have atm is NEED 4 ZERKER WARRIORS FOR COF P1 $$$$ RUN!!
I can live with that.
There are plenty of games that have the trinity. If you need a recommendation, I think the top two trinity games are Rift and TERA. I would personally go with Rift if I wanted a trinity game.
However, I really don't, so I'm sticking with GW2
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
GW2, however, continues to provide a wonderful alternative for those who don't enjoy the trinity as much as you do.
It continues to do well and I am quite happy that I do not have to spam LF healer. The worst we have atm is NEED 4 ZERKER WARRIORS FOR COF P1 $$$$ RUN!!
I can live with that.
There are plenty of games that have the trinity. If you need a recommendation, I think the top two trinity games are Rift and TERA. I would personally go with Rift if I wanted a trinity game.
However, I really don't, so I'm sticking with GW2
What's wierd about that is that in my guild, if we want to do a COF1 run we grab five guys and go. Anyone who wants to. Just grab and go. Never an issue, never a need for zerker warriors, etc. So what if we take a minute or two longer than an "optimal" group. Sadly lesser MMOs have people so ingrained on the numbers game that they've forgetten to simply play.
Originally posted by KhinRunite Been saying this since pre-launch, but if you're so accustomed to being special and sought-after primarily due to your class, then this "No holy trinity" system will leave a bitter taste in your mouth. For me this works so well because Ive always been the DPS type. I always used to be last in priority. In this game we're all equally important.
This ^
GW2 is definitely one of those games where if you want to 'stand out' you need to do it on your own merits. I think part of the problem is that soo many games basically pat gamers on the back for doing nothing. Heck, look at some of the achievements we have in a lot of games 'hurray! you installed the game! what a total badass you are!', or 'your the best soldier on the planet, because you're able to kill an army of underpowered enemies funnelled down corridors where they can't outmatch you!'.
Furthermore, being actually good at your class does make you stand out. Being that mesmer or theif that outlasts your party, because you outplayed them usually earns you some props. I still run into newer players who picked up the game, and just pickup a cookie-cutter build expecting to dominate everything, only to blame the game when that doesn't work. It's definitely a mentallity issue.
OK, So, how's this done? Let's put the forum experts aside. Yes, there are players who've been successful at setting up Youtube channels and have successful blogs, but let's keep this to within the game itself.
Who are the most famous players on the servers? Those who are well known? On my server, it's fairly limited to Wv3 Commanders. You can make or break your reputation with a commander tag in WV3. But, without the Commander Tag, you are a nobody. No one is known for content progression. Ther's just no way to make a name for yourself in GW2 within the PVE content itself. hHere are a few exceptions. We have a well known Bell Ringers in LA who can play Christmas Carols and the Zelda theme. There's also a few recognized Map Chat trolls. There are a few guild leaders that became known for their antics, but overall, with the exception of the bell ringer, being known in in the game (outside Wv3) is not a good thing.
I say this as a fan. I enjoy this game every day. I'm OK with the way it is, It doesn't bother me, but that doesn't mean the OP is wrong.
Comments
I almost always agree with what you say, but I just wanted to point that Dragon Age (at least DA:O) uses the trinity system. That's all though
Keep up the good fight!
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
All great points. I love WoW and the trinity system, but I also embrace change and GW2 is a step in the right direction.
edit: snip
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Not everyone is a masochist and want to subject himslef to countless hours of annoyances and "bad parts" of the game for some promise of fun that never actually comes, just more and more annoyances and bad parts.
And redefining "deep" as "annoying and bad"...just lol
Yes, GW2 is guilty of being very fun...guess not everyones cup of tea
I've found if you think about it too hard, you naturally come to the realization that of COUSE nothing in a MMO really matters or is worth anything - it's just a game.
It's all about having fun.
The moment you stop having fun, the moment a game "dies" for you.
Thankfully a good MMO is like a Phoenix, being reborn or reviving our interest - and really thankfully GW2 is B2P so you can come back any time without further financial investment.
But I agree with Tinybina - perhaps it is just years and years of forced co-dependancy via the Holy Trinity, but I first hit that wall in GW2 the very minute I played through my first dungeon.
I think the trinity-free model worked in say UO because there was no instanced, small group content.
Any dungeon you'd dive into was open world and it didn't matter if you were alone or with a party of 2 or 3 or 10.
You could find a way to win and it was truly an adventure.
I think GW2 would have done amazingly well by me (and others I'm sure) if that kind of content was included instead of a repetitive instanced dungeon grind.
Very odd to me the whole open world game was scalable and free from group composition restrictions and very co-op friendly, and then the dungeons were this wierd bastard child of trinity-free combat design and repetitive instance dungeon design.
I feel they felt they had to include instaned dungeons to draw in the "WoW" crowd - but you don't try and compete with WoW directly: you can't out WoW WoW no matter how hard you try (Rift) - I think it was a poor design choice and they would have been much, much better served in the long run with open world multi-level dungeons rather than instanced.
Rough, when our image of us being unique snowflakes melts into so much watter.
If i were you I'd grab a helmet because you are going to find out that this is the way of life.
I agree that a lot of the fights are/were fun. The "I fixed the broken slime pipes" one for example sticks in memory. But, still, once you learn the dance all someone has to do is play the music and you dance. That was it. The scripts were great for a lot of them, but your fun was still scripted. Personally, I see that (now at least) as the biggest flaw with the trinity system.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Trinity is not inherent RPG mehcanic. It was just used in some games to make combat as simplistic as possible.
But we hit standard behaviour here: lot of people dont want change, they found their comfort zone, they got too used to trinity to change now. I mean in their time... ... .... ;P
Yeah, that is a fair point.
I guess for me, I see a game that puts in instanced dungeons and puts points in them to grind for and I feel like it'd mandatory.
So maybe it's just a perspective thing, but I don't think I ever found or played in an area like what you describe, where as in UO everyone and I mean EVERYONE knew where all the open world dungeons were...
I agree with many of your points and would add
1. Weapons frequently make little sense relative to class.. Examples: all the guardians running around with staffs, Mesmers with greatswords etc. Its not the lack of a two handed axe but weapons that dont fit the "historic" concept of the profession.
2. I love to create all the race/class combinations. Out of them I will find 1 or 2 that I just love. In GW2 I cannot find any combination of which I am really trilled. Not having a favorite toon makes the game feel like something is missing and leaves a sense of why bother after reaching whatever goal you set, be it max level or something else.
3. There is a feeling of lack of power in the game due to down scaling. I miss not being able to take a level 80 into Queensland and just mop up the whole area or at least explore without constantly being attacked. Sometimes it makes you fell good to take a higher level toon and wipe out the boss that you just couldn't quite manage at a lower level. But this is not the game design.
4. The game is well done overall, and definitely worth the money spent. My two sons have left the game and I am down to largely running daileys. The excitement factor is gone all to soon. Maybe it is just burnout from to many years of playing these types of games, however; EQ2, Vanguard, WOW, LOTR, to name a few held my interest far longer. In this my sons and I agree, something is missing from GW2
Exactly.
Its like alcoholic drink,without alcohol or juice or lemonade,its just water,yes its still a drink but not serving its purpose anymore.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Eh... hang on, why doesn't the greatsword make sense as the ultimate in ranged weaponry? After all, it has the longest blade to channel arcane energies down towards your foe. Sure, grabbing it by the handle and swinging it around seems silly, it's a ranged weapon after all...
Oderint, dum metuant.
-_-
I'm going to keep this short and simple.
I almost want to piss(Like actually stand there and urinate) on all Holy Trinity Video Games, they got y'all minds screwed up into thinking "No holy trinity no MMORPG."
Fuck oughtta here with that.
Maybe not video games but just the Holy Trinity, if only it where an object that was tangible, people treat that concept like a God, like a religion in fact.
Seriously not beating around the bush if you believe that an MMORPG is not either an MMO or RPG or an MMORPG because it doesn't rely on a Holy Trinity
You.Need.Help.Period.
Edited: Freaking alcohol beverages lmao.
Yea Holy Trinity really been screwing with peoples mind, I'm so glad I don't have this desease.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
You know,it's not my place to call someone "nuts" as I can be pretty eccentric in my own life. but you came to this conclusion after two level 80's? And the only thing that set these thoughts into motion was that you couldn't buy a two handed axe?
Does this completely invalidate your two other characters that I presume you enjoyed playing?
Well, I would say it's eccentric.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
what is the meanning of your thread?
after 6 month of fun you say "hey there is no trinity, there is no 2hand axe for my warrior... ok i quit the game"
the holy trinity is one of the most boring thing in any combat imo
why ? just look at WoW combat people are just standing in one place and spam skills ... this is fun ......
i dont understand why people need to feel "i'm the greatest healer or dpser or tanker"
I agree. What many people define as "deep" mechanics, are simply poor mechanics made to be more complicated than they need to be, for the sake of being overly complicated. Making statements that GW2 isn't a mmo also shows a large amount of ignorance as well.
The misconception that GW2 is shallow is most likely attributed to a couple of factors. First, it doesn't seem that many people can wrap their heads around a loose trinity system. The majority seem to enjoy roles being defined and having your gameplay limited to a certain amount of choices. These limited roles are often considered "deep", because then with the clear and defined role, people can delve into learning the mechanics behind that specific role. Secondly, GW2 isn't well balanced when it comes to builds quite yet. The game has been out around 8 months, so it's not surprising that this is an issue, but it's a real issue that needs to be addressed. Many weapons for the various professions are simply not very good choices, and the weapons that are good choices very often blow anything else out of the water. Additionally, the utility skills and many elite skills are a little too specific for their uses.
GW2 suffers a bit in a similar area where I felt DCUO suffered. The weapons have a large emphasis placed upon them. The majority of your damage and abilities come directly from your weapon choices. However, the utility skills (or powers in DCUO), only seem to act as a compliment to the weapons or are temporary boosts to your character in general. Again, many of the utility skills in GW2 aren't very good selections in a general sense, but the ones that are, blow the competition out of the water.
I feel that if the weapon and utility skill selections in GW2 were a bit more equal, we would see more depth added in terms of working builds. Additionally, I feel they need to rework the utility slots a bit as well. Add more interesting choices to make those decisions more difficult.
Yeah, I don't think Great Axe (there was an item called Great Axe, but it was one handed) has ever existed in a Guild Wars game. In fact the Great Sword didn't even exist in the first one. I do believe one reason for them not having all weapons was that so they "can add more later in the game" when neeed or some such. Aside from all that, I feel like my warrior is a warrior at max level when I have my beserk rage, double axe, bow, and sword/shield armor set if I need to "tank" in dungeons. Though ultimately I feel like my warrior is a Barbarian more so than a warrior, as I have multiple shouts, a whirlwind attack with my axes, jump attacks, ground stomps, going beserk etc. Granted when I rush into battle, I could also have abilities that will cause enemies to flee when I yell at them, but most utility skills aside from the shouts or passives are fairly useless due to needlessly long cooldowns.
At present my favorite build would probably be the tank/healer build of the warrior whereby I can pretty much soak up tremendous damage with a sword/shield and heal my non-plate allies up to almost full life in three short shouts (depending if they have vit for some reason) when needed. Though when I'm in that gear, it looks more so like I'm a Knight (personal preference in terms of aesthetics, but the feeling is also such) rather than some enraged warrior wanting to chop heads off. I still don't get tired of just roaming the maps, engaging in random activities that show up and overall enjoying myself as if it were a real world and not one with a thousand exclamation points over NPC heads. But I have also felt a disconnect by the traditional Everquest and FFXI systems this game has what with their dragon timers, and the spawn windows; guilds and large groups of people just camp these areas for the bosses to spawn so that they can get their 00.001% chance at a precursor or whatever, and they keep on making it worse and worse with each update as they want to limit peoples' ability to acquire said items and or earn money for the economy's sake.
It's status quo for me in this game, as I never intended to play it as a MMO but rather a world to just travel and play make believe knight or something as only this game really allows. Though each time they nerf a viable way to make a couple gold an hour makes me less interested and I just don't have fun in games that have economies that make me poor and have to worry about game gold just for something simple as aesthetics when there's a real world element having to manage money as well. It's getting to the point where I'm just getting burnt out like you, and not even wanting to log in for a couple hour session of just roaming the country side in my knight armor and pretending to protect it from bandits and the like, or going on long journies and seeing new things (there's almost always something new you didn't notice the last time you visted a place). Though perhaps I'm being to critical, here I am treating the game as pretend, while also hating on the pretend economy. But it's a worry I'd rather not have if the goal is stress relief while playing a game (which was my original intention for guild wars 2 in not having to worry about gearing so I can participate in the next patch's content over and over again).
I'm not even sure they know what they're doing or where they want to take the game at this point. Though I guess whenever they release information on the next expansion we'll have a more prevalent source of information to try and understand their direction. I know their goal is to improve on most aspects of the core game, but at the same time they nerf things aggressively and in most cases either needlessly or in an amateurish fashion. I have guildmates who have purchased five copies of the game since a lot of aspects of their daily routines were locked for the account and not individual characters, just so that they could continue to do it five times per day. Just makes me depressed as a whole.
This was technically their first MMO, as Guild Wars was more so along the lines of a Diablo game with chat rooms and PvE that's restricted to 2-8 players at once. So I was expecting a lot of problems, but as a whole some of their decisions just take the parts of a game I don't like and made them worse (as a personal thing of mine). This is a game where I actually miss hub questing, simply because it was at least a viable way of making money (even if small, it provided direction in some way) other than grinding an area or dungeon or 1-5 hour spawn in the hopes to get lucky, with most other options nerfed when someone posts a youtube video or mentions it on the forums. The dailies in this game just give me a Laurel, a jug and a couple silver pieces and can only be done once per account per day. /sadface
They made such a great game; they focused a lot on little details and physics and how if you jump on a fence at an angle it will recognize one foot on the top and the other on the bottom. Or how grass and bushes sway when you move on them, or fire an arrow at them, or if you dance or use an emote on uneven terrain, your feet are always to the ground as opposed to the emote being stuck in mid air at parts. The combat is great and has a lot of tactics and different builds you could try out (though still dependant on new gear sets usually, some of which are getting really expensive and require substantial grind now for those who just logged in to have fun). I would play this game all over again if given a chance, but it's starting to be like how I view other games in that it had it's golden months (or years), and I would rather be playing those again.
Will definitely play the expansion when it comes out to see how they fix some systems or just to experience the new land and how they develop new stories (also to see how the other continents are fairing!). At it's core it's still a quality game, just suffers a bit from mismanagement by a fairly inexperienced MMO team in my opinion.
I've heard of a few people quitting because they felt like they weren't contributing because they didn't have a clearly defined role. That they didn't stand out, weren't recognized for what they done because everyone can do everything to a lesser extent (as long as they take the right gear and traits!).
And you know what; when you think about how parties interact that reasoning doesn't wash for me. You know what I thought when playing with about 90% of the people I did in WoW? It ranged somewhere between "Oh well, at least we have a healer and not another DPS" to "Well at least he is competant and knows what dispell is" or "At least he isn't drooling on his keyboard and standing in the fire" the 10% that made me think more positive than that are still the same people who stand out in GW2. How do they stand out? They play better overall. They last longer, they do more damage, they cc better, they work better with their team mates and protect them when they are vulnerable and they do all these things much better than your average player does. When it comes to standing out there is no difference between doing so in GW2 and doing so in any traditional Holy Trinity system, the only difference is the Holy Trinity system gives you the facade of being more important than you really are. You're no more unique in your role and playstyle in WoW or Rift than you are in GW2, you are what you make yourself. And if you want to stand out from the crowd then you play your chosen role well, better than others, that's what gets you noticed. The only real difference between the games is that GW2 blurs the lines of what is expected from each class but that in itself isn't a reason to not stand out or feel like you didn't make a difference. In fact I would argue that it allows you to stand out easier by coming up with more creative and efficient ways to boost your party's effectiveness.
Try it, go tank some dungeons with an elementalist after being laughed at only to have them whisper you afterwards telling you how amazing the run was (I told the guy I would give him 10g if I died more than he did). Try playing WvW with the same elementalist and taking on multiple people at the same time, distracting them from the siege and giving your side a numbers advantage because half of the enemy are too busy trying to zerg you. (Go watch this video for an example. Sure the people he is fighting might be bad but do you think he didn't stand out for those people who seen him or had to fight him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VREQMoqQUQc) That's the sort of stuff that makes you stand out from the crowd and it's no different than any other game. It all requires the same amount of effort. Just because you were a tank or healer in a different game didn't make you stand out, it didn't make you better.. it just massaged your ego. There's a reason why there's a stereotype of tanks in WoW being assholes and feeling like they deserve everything under the sun and it's not because they are unique or awesome players and this isn't the kind of behaviour we should be looking to promote through basic game design, especially when said game is focused around the player to player interactions.
I think GW2, and other games that don't follow the holy trinity, have it done the right way. The playing field is more even, it's up to us as individuals to be creative. It's up to us to play well and to stand out from the crowd based on our own merits and contributions rather than the fact a party needed a healer and you were the only dude around.
I was a huge proponent of eliminating the trinity and raiding, but now i see how important both are to PVE and guild cohesion. I miss both a lot more than i thought i would.
I love GW2 but it's main issue is that there isn't enough PVE for guilds to do together in groups larger than 5. Sure you can get a bunch of 5-mans and go do guild missions, but it isn't the same. Don't even get me started how poorly those were implemented anyways.
Sorry to see you go
GW2, however, continues to provide a wonderful alternative for those who don't enjoy the trinity as much as you do.
It continues to do well and I am quite happy that I do not have to spam LF healer. The worst we have atm is NEED 4 ZERKER WARRIORS FOR COF P1 $$$$ RUN!!
I can live with that.
There are plenty of games that have the trinity. If you need a recommendation, I think the top two trinity games are Rift and TERA. I would personally go with Rift if I wanted a trinity game.
However, I really don't, so I'm sticking with GW2
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
What's wierd about that is that in my guild, if we want to do a COF1 run we grab five guys and go. Anyone who wants to. Just grab and go. Never an issue, never a need for zerker warriors, etc. So what if we take a minute or two longer than an "optimal" group. Sadly lesser MMOs have people so ingrained on the numbers game that they've forgetten to simply play.
Oderint, dum metuant.
OK, So, how's this done? Let's put the forum experts aside. Yes, there are players who've been successful at setting up Youtube channels and have successful blogs, but let's keep this to within the game itself.
Who are the most famous players on the servers? Those who are well known? On my server, it's fairly limited to Wv3 Commanders. You can make or break your reputation with a commander tag in WV3. But, without the Commander Tag, you are a nobody. No one is known for content progression. Ther's just no way to make a name for yourself in GW2 within the PVE content itself. hHere are a few exceptions. We have a well known Bell Ringers in LA who can play Christmas Carols and the Zelda theme. There's also a few recognized Map Chat trolls. There are a few guild leaders that became known for their antics, but overall, with the exception of the bell ringer, being known in in the game (outside Wv3) is not a good thing.
I say this as a fan. I enjoy this game every day. I'm OK with the way it is, It doesn't bother me, but that doesn't mean the OP is wrong.
This. As much as people rail agianst "Holy Trinity" in PvE MMO space, it's really the only model that works.
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape