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F2P Model heading for disaster an "apocalypse" in 3-5 years

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  • CelciusCelcius Franklin, TNPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Alders
     

    Best post so far.

     

    I think we should stop lumping all FTP into the same category since there are some truely terrible models within this system.  It all comes down to execution and not nickel and diming players to death with every little thing.

    The fact that MJ's game is set to release right around the time of his prediction is also laughable.

     

    The real reason FTP is here to stay is because the era of people playing 1 MMO for years and years is over.

    Exactly. There are obviously failed versions of this model in on both the consumer and producer end. Time is certainly the biggest factor here. The MMO genre is no longer a handful of games, its dozens and dozens (100s?) of games now. Sure the market is getting saturated by F2P games but it is not like F2P games make it "not an mmo". The guys who are going after people willing to pay 10$ for an in game T-Shirt are the same people who are willing to pay a sub. The market is becoming saturated for both models. There is no imaginary line between the two. When people only have enough time to play so many MMOs they will end up playing games that are free more often then not. Sure, they might have a sub to one MMO, but they are playing 3 others without one. 

  • Rthuth434Rthuth434 uniondale, NYPosts: 346Member
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Rthuth434
    Originally posted by Fearum

    Where are the invested players in these F2P games? Oh thats right there is no commitment to those games because they cater to people who just want a quick fix and then they are on to the next thing.

    just like all the P2P MMO's that held 90% of their playerbase for a grand total of 34 days...?

    And they are now F2P and doing great? LOL

    A bad game is a bad game no matter what the pay model, not sure what your point it here but I think it was an attempt to be witty?

    I think they should have just died instead of hanging around like a leach. They will eventually though.

    the model doesn't dictate if the game will be bad or good though. acting like subs increase the chances or guarantee a product will be good goes against history.

    from MJ's point of view, he can make a case for what is preferable...but he's just as wrong overall about F2P going anywhere as all the F2P chest beaters were about P2P going away. it's all here to stay, with many failures and some successes along the way.

    no point in consumers choosing a side in payment models. you got three good p2p mmo's right now that are viable and actually getting support, and really the same number for non sub based...

  • CelciusCelcius Franklin, TNPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    P2P games that are still P2P; regardless of success, are still turning a profit enough to not go F2P;

     

    Rift
    WoW(Obviously)
    FFXI
    Dark Age of Camelot
    Warhammer: Age of Reckoning(yeah, it's not F2P! Haha)
    Eve Online
    FFXIV
    Asherons Call
    Darkfall

    Anarchy Online still charges 14.99/mo ti get it's full content.

    There is a difference between being successful and hanging on by a thread. (Not talking about WoW or Eve on this list)

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Alders

     

     

    Best post so far.

     

    I think we should stop lumping all FTP into the same category since there are some truely terrible models within this system.  It all comes down to execution and not nickel and diming players to death with every little thing.

    The fact that MJ's game is set to release right around the time of his prediction is also laughable.

     

    The real reason FTP is here to stay is because the era of people playing 1 MMO for years and years is over.

    Your right in a way Alders, most new mmo's seem to play more like an FPS where you log on every few days and pew pew for a bit then log on to another one and pew pew there. I don't want that type of game, I want a game where I can invest time and play it with other like minded players over a longer period of time. It may be over for the masses so that is why I have to turn my attention to niche games now that focus on what I would like out of a game instead of the carousel type games that we have now. 

  • Rthuth434Rthuth434 uniondale, NYPosts: 346Member
    Originally posted by Fearum

    Your right in a way Alders, most new mmo's seem to play more like an FPS where you log on every few days and pew pew for a bit then log on to another one and pew pew there. I don't want that type of game, I want a game where I can invest time and play it with other like minded players over a longer period of time. It may be over for the masses so that is why I have to turn my attention to niche games now that focus on what I would like out of a game instead of the carousel type games that we have now. 

    that's cool, but what the creator charges you doesn't dictate if the game will be like this. take any of your hated f2p games, change the model and none of them magically becaome a for us, by us niche game that caters to your values. MJ is going to make such a game, that's good. but he's only saying what benefits his business in these interviews. payment model either way is a foolish rallying cry, and the overwhelming amount of shitty p2p mmo's should be pretty sobering evidence of that for you. 

    this site especially is pretty much 90% people disappointed with every mmo out.....and you guys were like this from as long as i can remember...early 2000's before even WoW launched.. virtually everything was p2p then. back then many people here were just as frothing mad about SWG and DAoC too.

  • CelciusCelcius Franklin, TNPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rthuth434
    Originally posted by Fearum

    Your right in a way Alders, most new mmo's seem to play more like an FPS where you log on every few days and pew pew for a bit then log on to another one and pew pew there. I don't want that type of game, I want a game where I can invest time and play it with other like minded players over a longer period of time. It may be over for the masses so that is why I have to turn my attention to niche games now that focus on what I would like out of a game instead of the carousel type games that we have now. 

    that's cool, but what the creator charges you doesn't dictate if the game will be like this. take any of your hated f2p games, change the model and none of them magically becaome a for us, by us niche game that caters to your values. MJ is going to make such a game, that's good. but he's only saying what benefits his business in these interviews. payment model either way is a foolish rallying cry, and the overwhelming amount of shitty p2p mmo's should be pretty sobering evidence of that for you. 

    this site especially is pretty much 90% people disappointed with every mmo out.....and you guys were like this from as long as i can remember...early 2000's before even WoW launched.. virtually everything was p2p then. back then many people here were just as frothing mad about SWG and DAoC too.

    So true. I have been saying this for years. MMORPG is not a good site to go to for positive reinforcement about a game you enjoy. Its a site where you go and argue with other people about games you enjoy ;) Most of the guys on this site hate everything. 

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rthuth434
    Originally posted by Fearum

    Your right in a way Alders, most new mmo's seem to play more like an FPS where you log on every few days and pew pew for a bit then log on to another one and pew pew there. I don't want that type of game, I want a game where I can invest time and play it with other like minded players over a longer period of time. It may be over for the masses so that is why I have to turn my attention to niche games now that focus on what I would like out of a game instead of the carousel type games that we have now. 

    that's cool, but what the creator charges you doesn't dictate if the game will be like this. take any of your hated f2p games, change the model and none of them magically becaome a for us, by us niche game that caters to your values. MJ is going to make such a game, that's good. but he's only saying what benefits his business in these interviews. payment model either way is a foolish rallying cry, and they overwhelming amount of shitty p2p mmo's should be pretty sobering evidence of that for you. 

    this site especially is pretty much 90% peopel disappointed with every mmo out.....and you guys were liek this from as long as i can remember...early 2000's before even WoW launched.. virtually everything was p2p then.

    What is your point? He can speak his mind on any topic just like anyone here that can type info into making an account.

    Well its my choice to back this game, I think he can do it and am willing to dish out $110 to maybe see it made. Why is that threating to you that I want a game like this to be made?

    I want a game that I can play for long time, there are plenty of games for you out there that you can jump around for a year playing a different F2P title each week.

     

  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    Mark is right and statistics prove it . If he was wrong , wow would be free to play and not still have over 9 million subs. Oh yeah the conspircy on this site is wow hasnt got those numbers its all china paying by hours!  WOW is a great state to this day like it or not and no free to play game yet can boost those numbers but league of legends. Free to play isnt the holy grail of new gaming except by companies that were failing to begin with games that were mediocre at best. The only game that did not immediately need to go free to play i can think of was lotr online but their sub numbers were not even great to begin with. All free to play does is make it so servers are busier , you can see games like lotr online and even SWTOR are still laying off people now , but yet BRAG about how free to play saved them or made them so much money.  If a game is good word of mouth alone makes it money , regardless of a sub and I can tell you from playing wow for years and still having a sub I know if blizzard was to say hey we want to charge 19.95 a month sub , there is droves of people that would continue to do it and just grip about it because a lot of people love wow .
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Celcius
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    P2P games that are still P2P; regardless of success, are still turning a profit enough to not go F2P;

     

    Rift
    WoW(Obviously)
    FFXI
    Dark Age of Camelot
    Warhammer: Age of Reckoning(yeah, it's not F2P! Haha)
    Eve Online
    FFXIV
    Asherons Call
    Darkfall

    Anarchy Online still charges 14.99/mo ti get it's full content.

    There is a difference between being successful and hanging on by a thread. (Not talking about WoW or Eve on this list)

    It's not hanging on by a thread because of its payment model. It's hanging on by a thread because Funcom can't seem to deliver on promises made in the past 7 years.

     

    Although I can see the argument,"For the money..........." eing a valid one. But the game would still be active had Funcom made good on things they said they would do and actually gave some meaningful content updates once in a while. It's not thebilling model that's the issue, it's the quality of the game that currently is. Although, I will admit, this is one of those two sided issues. They do have a cash shop. But IMO, that's done more damage to the game than they might admit.

  • CelciusCelcius Franklin, TNPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Celcius
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    P2P games that are still P2P; regardless of success, are still turning a profit enough to not go F2P;

     

    Rift
    WoW(Obviously)
    FFXI
    Dark Age of Camelot
    Warhammer: Age of Reckoning(yeah, it's not F2P! Haha)
    Eve Online
    FFXIV
    Asherons Call
    Darkfall

    Anarchy Online still charges 14.99/mo ti get it's full content.

    There is a difference between being successful and hanging on by a thread. (Not talking about WoW or Eve on this list)

    It's not hanging on by a thread because of its payment model. It's hanging on by a thread because Funcom can't seem to deliver on promises made in the past 7 years.

    I think we got our wires crossed here. What I meant was that most of the games on that list don't really keep producing content which is what I mean by "hanging on by a thread". It was not pointed at AO specifically.

    Honestly part of the reason those games don't go F2P is because the conversion would not be worth it. It costs money to turn a game F2P as weird as that sounds. If those games barely update the game as it is, it would be highly unlikely they could switch models.

  • Rthuth434Rthuth434 uniondale, NYPosts: 346Member

    @ Fearum.

    you're literally arguing something that i'm not.  i'm saying that if you want a game you can play for a long time that's fine, but the payment model won't dictate that as evidenced by this whole genre since its infancy.

    Remember guys, most of you anit-f2p guys in this topic were beating your chests about it before mark came along and lifting up Funcom and TRION as your champions cause they were basically saying the same shit in a roundabout way. not long ago at all.  you're not without a good game to play because f2p, it's because most released suck and they happen to take a while to release. 

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cronius77
    Mark is right and statistics prove it . If he was wrong , wow would be free to play and not still have over 9 million subs. Oh yeah the conspircy on this site is wow hasnt got those numbers its all china paying by hours!  WOW is a great state to this day like it or not and no free to play game yet can boost those numbers but league of legends. Free to play isnt the holy grail of new gaming except by companies that were failing to begin with games that were mediocre at best. The only game that did not immediately need to go free to play i can think of was lotr online but their sub numbers were not even great to begin with. All free to play does is make it so servers are busier , you can see games like lotr online and even SWTOR are still laying off people now , but yet BRAG about how free to play saved them or made them so much money.  If a game is good word of mouth alone makes it money , regardless of a sub and I can tell you from playing wow for years and still having a sub I know if blizzard was to say hey we want to charge 19.95 a month sub , there is droves of people that would continue to do it and just grip about it because a lot of people love wow .

    True, because people actually like the game. A concept that a few people here don't really understand it seems. People want stability and a game they can play with familiar people. Yes there is room for F2P/B2P games, I don't like them and no matter how much bitching others will do I still will not like them, but saying a game will fail just off the pay model alone is pretty asinine.

    Debating pay models is fun and all but it all falls on the actual game to win over fans, if it can't it will fail.

  • CelciusCelcius Franklin, TNPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by cronius77
    Mark is right and statistics prove it . If he was wrong , wow would be free to play and not still have over 9 million subs. Oh yeah the conspircy on this site is wow hasnt got those numbers its all china paying by hours!  WOW is a great state to this day like it or not and no free to play game yet can boost those numbers but league of legends. Free to play isnt the holy grail of new gaming except by companies that were failing to begin with games that were mediocre at best. The only game that did not immediately need to go free to play i can think of was lotr online but their sub numbers were not even great to begin with. All free to play does is make it so servers are busier , you can see games like lotr online and even SWTOR are still laying off people now , but yet BRAG about how free to play saved them or made them so much money.  If a game is good word of mouth alone makes it money , regardless of a sub and I can tell you from playing wow for years and still having a sub I know if blizzard was to say hey we want to charge 19.95 a month sub , there is droves of people that would continue to do it and just grip about it because a lot of people love wow .

    True, because people actually like the game. A concept that a few people here don't really understand it seems. People want stability and a game they can play with familiar people. Yes there is room for F2P/B2P games, I don't like them and no matter how much bitching others will do I still will not like them, but saying a game will fail just off the pay model alone is pretty asinine.

    Just want to clear something up here...so you don't like B2P games? Did you buy Bioshock Infinite, Skyrim, or anything else along those lines? Those games are essentially B2P games with a shorter shelf life. They come out at full price. They provide content DLC for money. Hell, they give you less content then B2P MMOs do since they generally charge for additional content.

    I think part of it is what I just mentioned. Games in general are starting to adopt to MMO style payment models. This is something the entire medium is facing, not just MMOs. The thing is about MMO players who are keen on paying a sub (and probably pay one already) feel like they need to defend it because they pay or have paid for it. I guess they feel they are in some sort of VIP lounge that only the cool kids who pay a sub can enter.  Alot of these guys try to convince people, themselves included, that when you pay a subscription you get a higher quality product. This is simply not true anymore. Some would argue that it has never been true.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,197Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    Folks,

    Actually, my thinking is this:

    1) There are ton of publishers/developers trying to flood into the F2P space right now. These numbers continue to swell world-wide, including the US of course, year over year. Every time a publisher lays off a significant number of people, new studios are born. This, along with the belief that F2P is the next Internet Gold Rush will lead to even more developers and publishers getting into this space in the next couple of years. Look at EA's push into this space as an example of what is going on at other publishers but even more so in Asia. This will result in a glut of titles.

    2) Many of these same developers/publishers are now spending what used to be thought of as PC-level amounts on F2P games. This trend will increase over the coming years, especially in light of EA's public statement that they are betting heavily on FTP/micro-trans. EA, like other major publishers, have the cash to spend more and more in the hope that this spend will help drive out the competition. This is something almost every, if not every, well-heeled publishers has tried to do over the decades.

    3) There is an ever-increasing "race to the bottom" to not only offer F2P games but to make them cheaper in the beginning to get people to make an in-game buy and then hopefully keep them playing/paying.

    4) As more and better quality F2P games hit the market (we need to think globally, developers across the world are turning out F2P games at an astonishing rate), more players will decide not to spend anything since they can simply move on to the another game. This is even truer when developers essentially clone other games.

    5) An ever-increasing supply + prices heading downward are not a good combination unless you expect demand to substantially increase over the years (which is possible) but whether the demand outstrips the supply, well, we will have to see.

    What I expect will happen is that a lot of small developers will get pushed out of the market because unlike 5 years ago, they can't compete the with amount of corporate spending on these games. While there will always be room for the indie surprise hit, 99% of game developers can't count on this. This failure will cause a lot of studios to close down.

    In the meantime, publishers world-wide will continue to build F2P games in the hopes that they can have a hit such as LOL and build their own Riot Games. This too will lead to publishers eventually scaling back production and more publisher follies in trying to extract every possible cent they can from games that have failed to meet projections. This will end up hurting the F2P model but will then, I believe, lead to more players wanting the "good old days" of actually paying for a title and not being treating like walking wallets.

    What will be left will be some great F2P games, some even better F2P studios (who have survived the shake-out) and some successful publishers who will then look for the next "One model to rule them all" as they have for decades.

    Anyway, just wanted to clear that up. I don't expect all F2P games to go away as I have said for years (including my last panel at GDC) that there is, and always will be, room for multiple models in our industry.

    Mark

    P.S. I'm not saying this because of CU because frankly, CU is going to be a niche game regardless of what happens. If I'm wrong about what's coming, CU is still niche. If I'm right, CU will still remain niche.

    That is not unsustainability due to the business model. It's because of market saturation.  It has been true for the last 5 years or so for the P2P model as devs/pubs tried to chase the success Blizzard has seen. If studios and publishers can't develop a interesting title for cheaper and flourish with a niche following and revenue souce then they're doomed regardless of the business model.

    The point I think you're missing is that P2P games will suffer even more.  If players can hop F2P without paying then they're not going to subscribe to a sub-locked game and those will feel the effects even more due to a higher barrier of entry.

    It is P2P that pushed me in this direction.  I subscribed to Lineage for years and never paid more than my sub fee.  When I stopped playing that game I found that P2P publishers charged box / expansion fees, account service fees, and then added cash shops not to mention the stark lack of reinvestment of those sub fees back into the game.  Not only that but after a long period of time I became unhappy with renting temporary access to my games.  I spend hundreds of dollars over years in sub fees only to have all that mean nothing the moment I stop paying. I'm not renting my game access anymore.

    Natural selection has already dealt P2P a knock to the nose.  If it weeds out chaff F2P developers then that's fine by me too.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Celcius
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Celcius
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    P2P games that are still P2P; regardless of success, are still turning a profit enough to not go F2P;

     

    Rift
    WoW(Obviously)
    FFXI
    Dark Age of Camelot
    Warhammer: Age of Reckoning(yeah, it's not F2P! Haha)
    Eve Online
    FFXIV
    Asherons Call
    Darkfall

    Anarchy Online still charges 14.99/mo ti get it's full content.

    There is a difference between being successful and hanging on by a thread. (Not talking about WoW or Eve on this list)

    It's not hanging on by a thread because of its payment model. It's hanging on by a thread because Funcom can't seem to deliver on promises made in the past 7 years.

    I think we got our wires crossed here. What I meant was that most of the games on that list don't really keep producing content which is what I mean by "hanging on by a thread". It was not pointed at AO specifically.

    Honestly part of the reason those games don't go F2P is because the conversion would not be worth it. It costs money to turn a game F2P as weird as that sounds. If those games barely update the game as it is, it would be highly unlikely they could switch models.

    While I agree with this, I think it still goes back to buying quality. Many games wouldn't recoup much going f2p simply because they are crap at any price. Free s**t is still s**t.

    But at the same time, if a company had an absolute smash hit on their hands and one that had long term objectives and people wanted to continuously play month after month, then a sub is justifiable. Unfortunately, there just isn't such a game out there at this time.

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member

    I don't think "F2p" is going anywhere, and I think it has it's place in the market.

     

    However I also think thke "f2p" market can over-saturate (and perhaps that is what Mark is getting at) where you have so many F2p games an dthey are all nickel and diming people, people will eventually get tired of it and might want to go back to paying just 10 or so bucks /montha nd getting EVERYTHING in the game with no nickel and diming or being "cut off" from bank slots and all this other stuff.

    I think the market is big enough to support both types, and as a smart businessman I would not put all my eggs in one basket so to speak.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon

    Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black. He may as well have titled the article "I'm doing a sub game and my Kickstarter isn't going the way I hoped so crank up the propaganda machine."

     

    I love the arrogance of Mark Jacobs on this one. I'm really sorry, but there are a whole hell of a lot of people with a whole hell of a lot more experience and a much better grasp on current industry models that are pushing out F2P games. Sure, there will be some F2P games that fail, but I'm really sorry, Camelot Unchained is a perfect example of why a Sub game isn't sustainable in the current market and I'm sure Mark Jacobs will be breathing a sigh of relief when he doesn't have to support those $1/year subs years down the road. How is THAT!!!! a sustainable business model? 

     

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Celcius

     

    Just want to clear something up here...so you don't like B2P games? Did you buy Bioshock Infinite, Skyrim, or anything else along those lines? Those games are essentially B2P games with a shorter shelf life. They come out at full price. They provide content DLC for money. Hell, they give you less content then B2P MMOs do since they generally charge for additional content.

    I think part of it is what I just mentioned. Games in general are starting to adopt to MMO style payment models. This is something the entire medium is facing, not just MMOs. The thing is about MMO players who are keen on paying a sub (and probably pay one already) feel like they need to defend it because they pay or have paid for it. I guess they feel they are in some sort of VIP lounge that only the cool kids who pay a sub can enter.  Alot of these guys try to convince people, themselves included, that when you pay a subscription you get a higher quality product. This is simply not true anymore. Some would argue that it has never been true.

    So let's clear something up, you think Skyrim should of been F2P? How would that work my friend, I would like to hear your brilliant plans on how to carry the F2P movement over to single player games.

    I didn't realise we were debating single player games here.

     

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gylnne

    This warning coming from Mark Jacobs in a recent article he did which included his opinion on the unsustainable f2p model so many games are using.

     

    "Camelot Unchained creator and long-time MMO veteran Mark Jacobs has warned of an impending free-to-play “apocalypse” in three to five years time, thanks to a rush towards unsustainable free-to-play models. He predicted to VG247 that developers will close and publishers stand to lose a lot of money.

    “The whole free-to-play thing isn’t going away tomorrow,” Jacobs stressed, “but let’s just see what happens in three to five years – and I’m betting closer to three – where free-to-play will become just another model. Right now you’ve got everybody chasing it, going ‘Isn’t this great? Free to play, we’re going to make so much money’”.

    Jacobs felt that many developers and publishers are chasing the free-to-play market in the hope that a small percentage of players will actually lay down money on micro-payment items. He doesn’t see it as an economically viable strategy."

    Continue reading here:  f2p heading for disaster

    Mark Jacobs is an idiot if he actually believes any of thsoe things, let alone actually said it.  For the sake of argument I will just assume he actually said it so to this I will reply with the greatest statement about F2P EVER!

     

    A question was asked to Jack Emmert about F2P at the GenCon 2012 D&D Digital here is a link, starts at the 10:34 mark:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s

     

    If anyone knows me I am a big comicbook fan, I spend alot of money on Comic Books, over $500,  Some people only buy 1 comic per month.  Some dont spend anything but instead just watch TV but the key is if I am into Comic Books I can easily spend $500 and thats what we we are trying to do with Neverwinter.  If you enjoy the game, we are not making anyone pay, but there will be avenues for me to spend money because I enjoy it. 

     

    Bascially he is saying, there are plenty of people who wish to spend on something they enjoy, it is human nature to do so and this is exactly what the F2P does.  It allows those who want to spend $hundreds$ a month on the game and can afford it the opportunity to invest in their passions, their Hobbies and their wants.  Human nature is to aquire things we enjoy and this is the basis for F2P and it will never ever go anywhere.

     

    I think MJ only says these things because he realizes his game is going to be a sub based game that is only going to get 50k subscriptions.  Niche as it is, that is his perrogative, but happily F2P is not going anywhere, its the P2P that is in serious jeopardy here Mr. jacobs.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • newchemicalsnewchemicals San Gabriel, CAPosts: 43Member
    Yep sticking with sub based and refusing to spend anything on these cash shop/pay to win games.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,197Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by gylnne

    This warning coming from Mark Jacobs in a recent article he did which included his opinion on the unsustainable f2p model so many games are using.

     

    "Camelot Unchained creator and long-time MMO veteran Mark Jacobs has warned of an impending free-to-play “apocalypse” in three to five years time, thanks to a rush towards unsustainable free-to-play models. He predicted to VG247 that developers will close and publishers stand to lose a lot of money.

    “The whole free-to-play thing isn’t going away tomorrow,” Jacobs stressed, “but let’s just see what happens in three to five years – and I’m betting closer to three – where free-to-play will become just another model. Right now you’ve got everybody chasing it, going ‘Isn’t this great? Free to play, we’re going to make so much money’”.

    Jacobs felt that many developers and publishers are chasing the free-to-play market in the hope that a small percentage of players will actually lay down money on micro-payment items. He doesn’t see it as an economically viable strategy."

    Continue reading here:  f2p heading for disaster

    That's a pretty damning article, so CU can never, ever go F2P now, not unless MJ eats his words. oh and alienating most of his potential player base is a bit bold.

    I wonder if he may live to regret this statement if/when CU decides to introduce micro transactions.....F2P is a bad thing maybe, but a subscription based game with a cash shop? 

    LOL. I've already alienated a lot of my potential playerbase by saying:

    1) No PvE leveling

    2) Subscription-based only

    3) It won't be a successor to Dark Age of Camelot

    What I said in this article wasn't news to our backers. In terms of a cash shop, I'd rather shut the game down at that point.

    I guess I find it troubling that you're willing to flush all of the money and time a community has invested in your business venture if it doesn't pan out how you want.

    This is a major reason why I haven't donated to any Kickstarter yet.  There are no investor protections past funding.  If you were beholden to a publisher or publically traded company it wouldn't be as easy to throw away everything everyone else has put into the project.

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by gylnne

    This warning coming from Mark Jacobs in a recent article he did which included his opinion on the unsustainable f2p model so many games are using.

     

    "Camelot Unchained creator and long-time MMO veteran Mark Jacobs has warned of an impending free-to-play “apocalypse” in three to five years time, thanks to a rush towards unsustainable free-to-play models. He predicted to VG247 that developers will close and publishers stand to lose a lot of money.

    “The whole free-to-play thing isn’t going away tomorrow,” Jacobs stressed, “but let’s just see what happens in three to five years – and I’m betting closer to three – where free-to-play will become just another model. Right now you’ve got everybody chasing it, going ‘Isn’t this great? Free to play, we’re going to make so much money’”.

    Jacobs felt that many developers and publishers are chasing the free-to-play market in the hope that a small percentage of players will actually lay down money on micro-payment items. He doesn’t see it as an economically viable strategy."

    Continue reading here:  f2p heading for disaster

    Mark Jacobs is an idiot if he actually believes any of thsoe things, let alone actually said it.  For the sake of argument I will just assume he actually said it so to this I will reply with the greatest statement about F2P EVER!

     

    A question was asked to Jack Emmert about F2P at the GenCon 2012 D&D Digital here is a link, starts at the 10:34 mark:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s

     

    If anyone knows me I am a big comicbook fan, I spend alot of money on Comic Books, over $500,  Some people only buy 1 comic per month.  Some dont spend anything but instead just watch TV but the key is if I am into Comic Books I can easily spend $500 and thats what we we are trying to do with Neverwinter.  If you enjoy the game, we are not making anyone pay, but there will be avenues for me to spend money because I enjoy it. 

     

    Bascially he is saying, there are plenty of people who wish to spend on something they enjoy, it is human nature to do so and this is exactly what the F2P does.  It allows those who want to spend $hundreds$ a month on the game and can afford it the opportunity to invest in their passions, their Hobbies and their wants.  Human nature is to aquire things we enjoy and this is the basis for F2P and it will never ever go anywhere.

     

    I think MJ only says these things because he realizes his game is going to be a sub based game that is only going to get 50k subscriptions.  Niche as it is, that is his perrogative, but happily F2P is not going anywhere, its the P2P that is in serious jeopardy here Mr. jacobs.

    Except a comic book is an actual physical thing, not just pixels online. If that floats your boat, more power to ya.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,197Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    If anyone knows me I am a big comicbook fan, I spend alot of money on Comic Books, over $500,  Some people only buy 1 comic per month.  Some dont spend anything but instead just watch TV but the key is if I am into Comic Books I can easily spend $500 and thats what we we are trying to do with Neverwinter.  If you enjoy the game, we are not making anyone pay, but there will be avenues for me to spend money because I enjoy it. 

    Bascially he is saying, there are plenty of people who wish to spend on something they enjoy, it is human nature to do so and this is exactly what the F2P does.  It allows those who want to spend $hundreds$ a month on the game and can afford it the opportunity to invest in their passions, their Hobbies and their wants.  Human nature is to aquire things we enjoy and this is the basis for F2P and it will never ever go anywhere.

    Except a comic book is an actual physical thing, not just pixels online. If that floats your boat, more power to ya.

    There are digital comics just like digital books and digital games.

  • ScambugScambug TortugaPosts: 389Member

    I personally don't care about the business model. What I really don't like however is having an out of game shop where you can buy stuff you can't get within the game (aka cash shop). This concept needs to go once and for all, it stinks.

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,125Member Uncommon

    I have a feeling what MJ is possibly referring to is the fact that the f2p model right now is like the new west of the business world. Crazy crap is going on like real online money, flat out gambling and pretty much online businesses being made within games themselves at times. Most of this has nearly zero regulation and one huge universal truth is that when countries find out real unaccounted money is changing hands out side of their control they crack the f$ck down on it to get their piece of the pie and ensure businesses are bound to local governance.

     

    If you think the USA sits by and watches companies and players throwing real money around especially money that crosses boarders without regulation and think nothing of it you are incredibly naive. The USA is the hard ass country on the planet when it comes to money crossing their boarders. The interenet is the next and current battlegound for this sort of thing. I can only see more regulation coming to balance protection of customer, business and government. Regulation = restrictions.

    You stay sassy!

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