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[Column] General: A Letter to Mr. Appleton

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe Land of AZPosts: 16,649MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

Greed Monger has been much on the minds of many gamers lately, not especially for its status as an up and coming MMO. In today's Devil's Advocate, we post an open letter to Mr. Appleton with some thoughts to share about recent events. Read on before logging into the comments.

Greed Monger is in an unenviable position at the moment. As a game in development, not a lot of people know its status, and you've been taken to task for how you've handled criticism pertaining to either your game-in-development or yourself.

Perhaps you feel justified in the things you've done to protect your good name. This letter I'm writing, however is my attempt to serve as your devil's advocate. Simply put, I do not think you understand how the social webs online are designed, and you have to adapt your thinking to the situation or face the eventual criticism towards your game becoming abject apathy towards it.

Read more of Victor Barreiro Jr.'s The Devil's Advocate: A Letter to Mr. Appleton.

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Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

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Comments

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member
    The whole Greed Monger project reminds me a lot of the Camelot Unchained project. Projects with lots of talk and almost nothing to show. Not my cup of tea, tbh

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
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    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FromHell
    The whole Greed Monger project reminds me a lot of the Camelot Unchained project. Projects with lots of talk and almost nothing to show. Not my cup of tea, tbh

    Well yes, games early in development typically don't have much to show just yet.  But has anyone working on Camelot Unchained come out threatening to sue people for criticizing the game?

  • bartoni33bartoni33 Southern IllinoisPosts: 1,081Member Uncommon

    First off I am a backer of this ...game. I regret this now. This game will be vaporware for sure. Mr. Appleton is in over his head so much he will be crushed from the pressure. FFS he was nowhere near finished with this ...game and he had the nerve/gall/stupidity to start on another one (not funded but good try Appleton): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/appleton/billy-bolts-my-fathers-keeper

    If I had known (my fault for not reading up I guess) that his previous gigs were MMA musclehead/whatever-the-hell-he-did-with-that-nonsense and a "male enhancement" snake oil salesman I would have stayed far away. So don't be surprised by his unprofessional attitude Mr. Advocate. And don't be surprised by any unprofessional comments he makes regarding this article either.

     

    image

  • ExcessionExcession NottinghamPosts: 367Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by FromHell
    The whole Greed Monger project reminds me a lot of the Camelot Unchained project. Projects with lots of talk and almost nothing to show. Not my cup of tea, tbh

    Well yes, games early in development typically don't have much to show just yet.  But has anyone working on Camelot Unchained come out threatening to sue people for criticizing the game?

    From what I read of his comments, neither did Appleton, but he did threaten to sue people he claimed were talking shit about him personally.

    But I guess your comment just goes to show, anything he says now will be misconstrued.

    Maybe this is mmorpg.com's way of kicking the guy while he is down...

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • JayarisJayaris InvercargillPosts: 308Member

    Thanks for the link bartoni, the comments section on that KS was golden.

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/appleton/billy-bolts-my-fathers-keeper/comments

    Hi

  • RyowulfRyowulf Greensburg, PAPosts: 668Member Uncommon
    Greed Monger? That was so 5 minutes ago.
  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon
    I was wondering what happened to the Greed Monger page. Was a great source of entertainment.

    Right move on Bill's part though.

    image
  • pantheronpantheron calhoun, GAPosts: 170Member
    I was so glad I got to read the whole epic  greed monger saga. It was like the best book the internet has ever written. 

    I play MMOs for the Forum PVP

  • MogusMogus Anderson, OHPosts: 169Member

    Victor, your article was well written and recieved. I come from the school of earning ones respect, not blind respect. I've never been the guy to poke fun at disabled children or people who couldn't defend themselves. I was the guy defending them. The internet is a very different place where people in the position of development are expected to be flamed, trolled, lied about and the like while simply bowing and saying thank you, otherwise, they are branded as bad business men, arrogant and any other derogatory title. I simply don't agree with this and I can't pretend to for the sake of my "reputation". The fact remains, I'm honest, very hard working and we are making great leaps of progress on Greed Monger and that progress alone should be what the public uses to establish their opinions on Greed Monger, not how I personally handle an endless list of tirades, slander, defamation and insults all of which are baseless and unfounded that honestly shouldn't be so freely allowed on anywebsite targeting anyone, let alone me.

    I appreciate your letter and I'm sure you are very accurate in how things are in the anonymous mosh pit of mmorpg discussion forums, however, that doesnt mean I or anyone should just accept it for what it is and deal with it. It needs to change. I've always said, those who point the finger the most are often the ones with the most to side. It's just how it is in the real world.

    Thank you for your letter.

    www.greedmonger.com
    Did you like Ultima Online? Then you'll LOVE Greed Monger!

  • AmsaiAmsai Montgomery, ALPosts: 88Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jayaris

    Thanks for the link bartoni, the comments section on that KS was golden.

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/appleton/billy-bolts-my-fathers-keeper/comments

    LOL. The comments section of the kickstarter are hilarious. Do any of you have friends or aquaintences that just keep throwing bullshit at you well after its been found out they either dont know what they are talking about or are caught in an obvious lie? You know..... like if they can just keep up the facade they can eventually convice you the waters not wet. Or maybe its a pride thing?  Even they know they are wrong but stubbornly refuse to admit it. Thats what this reminds me of.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by FromHell
    The whole Greed Monger project reminds me a lot of the Camelot Unchained project. Projects with lots of talk and almost nothing to show. Not my cup of tea, tbh

    Well yes, games early in development typically don't have much to show just yet.  But has anyone working on Camelot Unchained come out threatening to sue people for criticizing the game?

    No, but MJ has come out and called those questioning things trolls, whiners, haters, etc. He's been pretty antagonistic lately and its been directed at a lot of people questioning the lack of information and anything to show prior to asking for pledges. 

    I agree he's not up to Appletons level yet, but while he hasn't crossed that line yet he is pretty close to it. 

  • mistmakermistmaker viennaPosts: 232Member Uncommon

    lol. people are ad, bro.

     

    mr. appleton writes in a normal right way and gets another shitstorm. so the article is just another anti appleton campaign, hidden behind "the good advice"

     

    here is my good advice and the only true one: bring out the game, hope that is good or at least average. THEN you can come back and talk in the forums, because people cant call you a scam artist anymore. MY respect you would have when you finish the game! meanwhile dont write anything here, you are only digging deeper, no matter how perhaps true is what you say!

     

    listen to my words!

  • DJMantissDJMantiss Tracy, CAPosts: 100Member

    Wait, is that a serious response? I understand that websites don't fall under the 1st amendment, but to say that people shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions is just wrong. Especially on a site that is not your property in any way, shape or form. If anything even bad publicity is publicity but instead you want to alienate people as quickly as possible.

     

    As they say the proof is in the pudding and actions speak louder than words. So it would be nice to actually see the progress and updates, but we cannot since the threat of legal action comes so easily from your side of things.

     

    Lasty, as someone who has employees... I cannot condone or accept that you would risk their lively-hood, families and careers just to battle with forum warriors. Its bad form, plain and simple and you should put those who are depending on you first and that means taking the lumps and proving people wrong with the quality of your product, not the threats of your words.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mistmaker

    lol. people are ad, bro.

     

    mr. appleton writes in a normal right way and gets another shitstorm. so the article is just another anti appleton campaign, hidden behind "the good advice"

     

    here is my good advice and the only true one: bring out the game, hope that is good or at least average. THEN you can come back and talk in the forums, because people cant call you a scam artist anymore. MY respect you would have when you finish the game! meanwhile dont write anything here, you are only digging deeper, no matter how perhaps true is what you say!

     

    listen to my words!

    I'll have to agree, he replied in a very reasonable manner to the article, and people are just blasting away at him because of either past mis-deeds or his lack of humility.

    You are right, no point to argue, he'll just keep digging the hole deeper, best to deliver a game to silence the critics

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • LetsPlayOutsideLetsPlayOutside Los Angeles, CAPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by mistmaker

    lol. people are ad, bro.

     

    mr. appleton writes in a normal right way and gets another shitstorm. so the article is just another anti appleton campaign, hidden behind "the good advice"

     

    here is my good advice and the only true one: bring out the game, hope that is good or at least average. THEN you can come back and talk in the forums, because people cant call you a scam artist anymore. MY respect you would have when you finish the game! meanwhile dont write anything here, you are only digging deeper, no matter how perhaps true is what you say!

     

    listen to my words!

    +1 Ignore the forums and develop the game. Trolls won't ever stop trolling.

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by FromHell
    The whole Greed Monger project reminds me a lot of the Camelot Unchained project. Projects with lots of talk and almost nothing to show. Not my cup of tea, tbh

    Well yes, games early in development typically don't have much to show just yet.  But has anyone working on Camelot Unchained come out threatening to sue people for criticizing the game?

    No, but MJ has come out and called those questioning things trolls, whiners, haters, etc. He's been pretty antagonistic lately and its been directed at a lot of people questioning the lack of information and anything to show prior to asking for pledges. 

    I agree he's not up to Appletons level yet, but while he hasn't crossed that line yet he is pretty close to it. 

    Well, I missed the Greed Monger campaign but I'd rather backed GM than CU, why?

    GM is done by a real indie developer with no money aside.

    At least they have and excuse for not having a prototype, MJ has not.

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
    .


    .
    The Return of ELITE !
    image

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    Here's some simple advice for Jason.

    Before you even consider replying to this thread, hire a good PR person, forward ALL of your social media bookmarks to them and then immediately delete them from your computer.

    Have a nice day.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member
    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Here's some simple advice for Jason.

    Before you even consider replying to this thread, hire a good PR person, forward ALL of your social media bookmarks to them and then immediately delete them from your computer.

    Have a nice day.

    Oops, too late! image

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,916Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mogus

    Victor, your article was well written and recieved. I come from the school of earning ones respect, not blind respect. I've never been the guy to poke fun at disabled children or people who couldn't defend themselves. I was the guy defending them. The internet is a very different place where people in the position of development are expected to be flamed, trolled, lied about and the like while simply bowing and saying thank you, otherwise, they are branded as bad business men, arrogant and any other derogatory title. I simply don't agree with this and I can't pretend to for the sake of my "reputation". The fact remains, I'm honest, very hard working and we are making great leaps of progress on Greed Monger and that progress alone should be what the public uses to establish their opinions on Greed Monger, not how I personally handle an endless list of tirades, slander, defamation and insults all of which are baseless and unfounded that honestly shouldn't be so freely allowed on anywebsite targeting anyone, let alone me.

    I appreciate your letter and I'm sure you are very accurate in how things are in the anonymous mosh pit of mmorpg discussion forums, however, that doesnt mean I or anyone should just accept it for what it is and deal with it. It needs to change. I've always said, those who point the finger the most are often the ones with the most to side. It's just how it is in the real world.

    Thank you for your letter.

    You will never get people to actually listen to what you're saying, 90% of the people who respond to you or bring you up are only doing so to continue what has transpired here and elsewhere. That's their favorite game after all, they will twist every word you say, they'll say you're being an asshat (yet ignore any other asshat in the discussion), it's very much an us vs them mentality in these parts, you can't get around that. Most won't even really give a crap about the issue/game or you, they just love to participate in the drama. You're allowing yourself to become the next Derek Smart, you'll have plenty coming out of the wood work simply to be apart of the next epic dev vs community extravaganza.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member

    Holy smokes, why does this guy attract so many hater trolls? Stop acting like he stole your money and ran off.

    Guess the most vocal posters haven't even backed the project. Let him do his indie project and stop the flaming, go back bashing your favourite victim EA, at least EA is not a person.

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
    .


    .
    The Return of ELITE !
    image

  • BigdaddyxBigdaddyx California, WAPosts: 1,986Member Uncommon

    Come on guys. He replied ina very resonable tone and i don't see why he is getting flamed? only because he is a dev does it mean he has to keep on taking insults and abuse? who made this rule that devs can not speak their mind in public forums?

    I will take a game developer like him who is not afraid to speak his mind over the robotic PR people who ssay and write exactly what they are taught.

    Really sad and immature to flame him like this.

  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Riverside, RIPosts: 3,266Member Uncommon
    I can't for the life of me figure out why he keeps responding. Like a moth to a flame... Literally.

    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, DN, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
    ESO, FE, FFXI, FFXIV, FF, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MO, MxO, NW, Rift, RoE,
    Ryzom, SB, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...

  • AmanaAmana New York, NYPosts: 2,581Moderator Uncommon

    Guys, plain calling out fellow members of this community, even if they are the subject of the editorial, is not cool. What is fine is disagreeing or expressing opinions about details, but personally flaming others is against the rules here and will be removed. If you have an opinion on the situation or the editorial, go right ahead. 

    To give feedback on moderation, contact community@mmorpg.com

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mogus

    Victor, your article was well written and recieved. I come from the school of earning ones respect, not blind respect. I've never been the guy to poke fun at disabled children or people who couldn't defend themselves. I was the guy defending them. The internet is a very different place where people in the position of development are expected to be flamed, trolled, lied about and the like while simply bowing and saying thank you, otherwise, they are branded as bad business men, arrogant and any other derogatory title. I simply don't agree with this and I can't pretend to for the sake of my "reputation". The fact remains, I'm honest, very hard working and we are making great leaps of progress on Greed Monger and that progress alone should be what the public uses to establish their opinions on Greed Monger, not how I personally handle an endless list of tirades, slander, defamation and insults all of which are baseless and unfounded that honestly shouldn't be so freely allowed on anywebsite targeting anyone, let alone me.

    I appreciate your letter and I'm sure you are very accurate in how things are in the anonymous mosh pit of mmorpg discussion forums, however, that doesnt mean I or anyone should just accept it for what it is and deal with it. It needs to change. I've always said, those who point the finger the most are often the ones with the most to side. It's just how it is in the real world.

    Thank you for your letter.

    You just do not get it! You threaten people, telling them you'll sue them, call their employeers and make sure they get fired. These are normal people that most likely need their jobs, and thier livelyhoods are getting threatened for what? For using their right of freedom of speech. You cannot legally sue anyone for using freedom of speech and thinking that you can makes you look (yes, I will say it and MMORPG.com can get mad at me) extremely pompous and conceited. You are one of the big reasons that me and other people are afraid to back up Kickstarters.

     

    The fact that you seemed to have learned absolutely nothing from this is even more worrisome and honestly makes me think that you have some anger issues that you need to get worked on. I just feel bad for all the Kickstarters that did back your project and I hope that Kickstarter bans you from being allowed to try and use their website for any future projects.

    Smile

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mogus

     

    The internet is a very different place where people in the position of development are expected to be flamed, trolled, lied about and the like while simply bowing and saying thank you, otherwise, they are branded as bad business men, arrogant and any other derogatory title. I simply don't agree with this and I can't pretend to for the sake of my "reputation".

    It takes absolutely no effort to put on the "professional face" and say "I appreciate your opinion X and we will continualy work on Greedmonger so that in the end it proves itself to be the game everyone expected and wanted."

    or, just not say anything at all.

    And as I've mentioned in another post, the best way to silence naysayers is to just "be great". By showing a professional face, by being timely with updates, by putting out a great product, you let your work speak for itself.

     

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