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Any other DAOCers holding back?

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  • EdanyEdany Phoenix, AZPosts: 178Member
    Originally posted by EasymodeX

    I'd honestly be surprised if TESO doesn't include gear creep from the PvE side and other PvE-related requirements that just get tedious at best.

    Pretty much every PvP MMO that included PvE has done that to one extent or another over the past decade, and I would be shocked if an IP with as much investment into the "lore" and "story" / world as ESO doesn't go down the same route.

    This. In every single MMO released over the last decade that tried to cater to both PvE and RvR / PvP, due to the difference in play style and the difference in requirements to fight a scripted mob vs. another player, they will never be able to balance the two and make everyone happy.

    They will release some PvE expansion or area, where near impossible to attain gear will drop putting a few into Godmode status in RvR. PvP players will rage at having to PvE to be competitive. After a few months of this, the developers will release some upgraded armor to be "competitive" with what they're forced to get in PvE. This will make a few PvE players indestructable in PvE and PvE players will rage at having to PvP to acquire enough tokens / coins / rocks / baubles / and beads to obtain said gear.

    Wash. Rinse. Repeat. - No thank you. 

  • SorninSornin Richmond, BCPosts: 1,133Member

    I am betting PvE content will unlock for the realm presently doing the best in RvR, or who fulfills certain requirements, that grants access to resources needed to craft the best equipment. Will it look exactly like Darkness Falls? Probably not. It may not be as traditional of a dungeon, but I think it will be in the same general vein.

    I mean, what if there are several dragon lairs in the world, for example, and the entrance to each can only be held by one realm at a time? That realm gets the chance to battle that dragon, maybe get some dragonscales, and craft sweet armour. There is one motive to RvR, the reward, and the PvE content.

    I would be highly, highly surprised if something like this is not in at release. Highly.

    image

  • lovebuglovebug burnleyPosts: 256Member

     dependency between RvR/PvE in the design as evidenced by the Darkess Falls.

    you got it in a nutshell :). dont think i will be playing cu.

  • DaizeddDaizedd Salon de ProvencePosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by lovebug

     dependency between RvR/PvE in the design as evidenced by the Darkess Falls.

    you got it in a nutshell :). dont think i will be playing cu.

    I don't think you have been paying attention.

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Well in my case the issue is that I enjoy character progression via PVE activities and only did RVR as a side bar activity, mostly because I pretty much suck at PVP.

    Only way I will be able to advance is by zerging with others, almost a weird form of forced grouping in my case.

    I'll probably make a small pledge at the end of the campaign if it looks close, mostly just to show support for a new idea, and not because it is a game I'm likely to enjoy.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by EasymodeX

    I'd honestly be surprised if TESO doesn't include gear creep from the PvE side and other PvE-related requirements that just get tedious at best.

    Pretty much every PvP MMO that included PvE has done that to one extent or another over the past decade, and I would be shocked if an IP with as much investment into the "lore" and "story" / world as ESO doesn't go down the same route.

    Yes this is my big fear about TESO as well. It's why I love the fact that CU won't have PvE and loot drops. I'm still apprehensive that eventually CU might add its own form of gear grind no matter how often Mark denies it, but it won't be in there at day 1 at least.

    My other concern about TESO is one I also have about CU which is that progression will be weak/flat so that veteran characters are barely different than noobs. Early DAOC did progression right. It took a long time to get high realm rank but getting there gave you a lot of powerful tools. That's what I'd like in my new RvR games.

    These things and the fact that TESO will require PvE leveling and (probably) a monthly sub are why I am waiting to try it in beta before getting excited or pre-ordering it.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Toronto, ONPosts: 263Member
    Originally posted by meddyck
    Originally posted by EasymodeX

    I'd honestly be surprised if TESO doesn't include gear creep from the PvE side and other PvE-related requirements that just get tedious at best.

    Pretty much every PvP MMO that included PvE has done that to one extent or another over the past decade, and I would be shocked if an IP with as much investment into the "lore" and "story" / world as ESO doesn't go down the same route.

    Yes this is my big fear about TESO as well. It's why I love the fact that CU won't have PvE and loot drops. I'm still apprehensive that eventually CU might add its own form of gear grind no matter how often Mark denies it, but it won't be in there at day 1 at least.

    My other concern about TESO is one I also have about CU which is that progression will be weak/flat so that veteran characters are barely different than noobs. Early DAOC did progression right. It took a long time to get high realm rank but getting there gave you a lot of powerful tools. That's what I'd like in my new RvR games.

    These things and the fact that TESO will require PvE leveling and (probably) a monthly sub are why I am waiting to try it in beta before getting excited or pre-ordering it.

    re: flat/lateral progression - I actually think that is key.

    But consider DAOC - if level 50 was level 1, and you just gained RR. Yeah, you're picking up new skills etc but you're not getting a to-hit bonus, extra criticals, more hp etc etc - just acquiring more skills.

    I'd like to see it grow a -bit- more than just that, but that's how I could see it working.

    A L5 healer is better than a L2 healer...but only because now he has his group heal, which adds a ton of utility.

    Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
    Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
    Healer, Warrior, Skald

  • TanemundTanemund Orange, CTPosts: 102Member Uncommon

    Personally I think it was the separation of PvE and RvR that made DAoC great.  Before Shrouded Isle the only impact PvE had on RvR was character level and the best armor drops you could get, which was epic armor.  If you wanted to PvE without interruption you could do it in your realm.  Well and good.  You could get your levels and armor without being subject to interruption by enemies.

     

    If you wanted to PvE with the excitement of possibly getting ganked by an enemy you could go out on one of the three frontiers.  It gave PvE a little extra pop because you knew when you went out there you were taking your life in your hands and enemies out there could wait until you pulled monsters and then gank you during the fight giving you an XP death and a grave you probably couldn't reach.

     

    And if you wanted to RvR you hit the frontiers (meaning you probably ran to Emain) and did your thing.

     

    RvR deaths didn't set you back with an XP death penalty.  You could PvE your butt off at level 50 and yet pretty much everyone had what everyone else had when it came to armor and arms.  Once a toon hit 50 and got its epic gear, it was pretty much done as far as PvE was concerned.  There weren't many raids or bosses to kill to get better gear and truthfully if you wanted to make your level 50 toon more powerful then the only way to do it was to RvR and get realm ranks to get realm abilities.  The separation kept things fairly even.  Most folks didn't even PvE with their level 50s because they didn't want to wear out their Epic Armor killing monsters.  Instead we parked our level 50 in a boarder keep and roled an alt to play while we waited for our next run in RvR or the next Call to Arms.  (And if you were a Hib your bound in Tir na mBeo so you could get a horse ride back to the boarder keep when you got killed in RvR.  If you were a Mid you bound in Huginfeld.  I never played Alb before they put the bindstones in the boarder keeps).

     

    With Shrouded Isles the separation began to break down a bit.  The new zones added new quests and PvE content that produced items that helped even level 50 toons become more powerful.  Used in conjunction with spellcrafting (the ability to imbue stats on player made armor and weapons) these new PvE items helped all the level 50s maximize their stats and resists.  It took a bit but pretty soon everyone's level 50s had maxed out and were tear assing around the frontier again.  With toons that hit level 50 after SI came out, you simply planned these SI quests and PvE content into your regular leveling from 1 to 50 and the only difference between that toon and the toon that had been RvRing for a few months was realm rank, which you got by doing RvR not PvE.

     

    Then Trials of Atlantis hit and the wall between PvE and PvP came crashing down.  We were told that Trials of Atlantis would only make small "linear" changes to level 50 characters.  We were told that Trials of Atlantis wouldn't be necessary to RvR.  Trials of Atlantis added 10 new levels to the game, but instead of being honest and raising the level cap, Mythic called them Master Levels 1 - 10 and you gained them by doing 10 (one for each level) four to twelve hour PvE raids.  On top of that Mythic added Relic encounters where you could get items that had huge bonuses by completeing a task (usually killing some boss somewhere) and then you had to level the item up by doing MORE PvE activities (killing demon type mobs for example).

     

    At first most people just dabbled with Trials of Atlantis.  That was until the first group with three High Master Level Mana specced Enchanters templated in artifacts so their stats were completely blown out of proportion set up two or three Power Fonts in a keep's lord room and began to blow entire realms worth of enemies into smoking piles of flesh.  My group used to laugh and call it Focus Pulling Albs (the realm of Albion had the biggest population on our server) and it was fun for about a week.  Our realm ranks soared to previously unheard of heights and we could pretty much shut down any frontier we wanted by hitting a choke point, setting up shop and spamming the "1" key.  Then, frankly, it got boring.  There was no great skill involved beyond the fact that I could do simple math to formulate a template and the fact that the job I had when I first picked up the game and the lack of a family allowed me long hours of uninterrupted playing time.  Once I spent the time it was a simple matter of getting in the right place and pushing the same key over and over until all the people with red names were either dead or running away.  It was like playing in God Mode and for a while people didn't come out to the frontiers to play when we were out.  This complete inequity offended the hell out of people.

     

    The most offended were those that had been playing since release (Yo!) and had been RvRing for two years prior to the release of ToA.  Suddenely your level 50 realm rank six whatever that had served you well since 2001 was simply cannon fodder for those that were ML10 and templated with artifacts.  Without doing the Trials of Atlantis PvE you didn't stand a chance in RvR.  So people reacted in one of two ways.

     

    Those with the time to do it (remember we're talking about raiding here.  No doing it in nice clean 1 hour bites.  You had to sit at your comp for 4 to 10 hours straight when ToA first came out.  AND you'd better be available when the raid started because there was no catching up once it got rolling.  AND you needed 10 to 25 of your closest friends with you to finish most of these raids.  AND all of this assumes you don't wipe, lose half the people in the raid to Real Life and have to start all over.) hit content in Trials of Atlantis with renewed vigor.  The ground through the raids and ground up their artifacts to template their toons and a few months later they came back to the frontiers.

     

    Those without the time quit the game.  In the end that's what got me.  We decided we needed to change toons to make a stronger RvR group (This was the beginning of the age of the Determination Tank) and I decided I couldn't afford the time to go from level 1 to 50 (the average time was 15 to 20 days /played to reach level 50 back then) and spend more time doing Trials of Atlantis stuff.  I had a new family and I just couldn't spend four to six hours a day parked in front of my computer anymore. 

     

    Around that time City of Heroes came out and I decided to give that a try since it was much more "casual player" friendly.

     

    I know that Mythic made "Classic servers" without ToA and I know they've dumbed down ToA rediculously since I played but the wall between PvE and RvR has stayed broken and to me that was the death knell of the game.  It's possible for a game to have great PvE and great PvP, but as soon as one area crosses over and becomes necessary to be competative in the other area beyond normal leveling up, then the game goes from skill based to a contest of who can afford the Real Life time to plow through the content.

     

    Just my two coppers.  YMMV.

    Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member

    I am an old DAOC player and i'm holding out.

    I don't have any concerns about their technical ability to pull off a game like they're advertising.

    I am exstatic about another 3 realm game with norse/tdd/arthurian lore, best for a game imo as the best mmo games are magic / sword / shield type games.

    They are saying a lot of things right and i'm super excited about the possibilities.

    However ...

    There are unanswered questions that would change things drastically that I'm hoping they answer but doubt they will, the questions I want answered could split their backers in two and if they choose one way before the kickstarter ends and they get the money those people could pull out tanking the system.

    Number one on that list is a hot topic of late after the latest video - Collision Detection.

    I hear all over the comments threads and through these forums previously that: 

    -a PVP game doesn't make sense without collision detection

    -CD adds so much more tactics to battles

    -a tank class is pointless without CD

    There may be other little reasons, but generalized these are what I'm reading... ( correct me if i'm wrong )

    As for them, I believe they are completely inaccurate and are very single minded thinking trying to justify CD because it makes it feel "more real" to them ...

    -Most PVP games in the world don't have CD and besides you people finding excuses why you died (ex. "DUDE RAN RIGHT THROUGH ME THAT'S SO STUPID UNFAIR /quit" ) There is no logical reason why a game ( A FCKING GAME ) can't be fun / succcessful with or without CD.

    -This one is the most frustrating, because of the argument "as it gives tanks something to do" all good pvp games i've played tanks always had a role  ( give them some dps utility in an alernate form (slow 2hander, shield utility defensive peeling utility )).

    In fact more to this point is it gives you a lot more options in terms of things to do in keep defense / attacking other then just pushing your shield to stop people coming through ... all this does is linearize how all keep battles turn into, theres maybe not less tactics and def not more, but it forces both sides to just beat tank walls back and forth until someone wins... theres ZERO accountability for range / healer positioning, as long as they're behind tank wall they are safe as a baby ( isn't that what we're trying to accomplish?? acountability? )

    Without CD i've had many a keep battles where in fact you fought head on pushing each other back and forth, but you also have other options to have groups flank into the heart of the keep causing more chaos and punishing those casters/healers that arn't prepared and are in bad positions. Also enables small organized groups to be able to zerg bust more effectively as it is impossible for them to do anything if 5 tanks standing in the door.

    In my mind all I see is CD lowering the tactical options for attacking realms and forcing all battles to play out the same, which gets boring no?

    It's not hard to give tanks abilities / skills to make them fun / beneficial to the game instead of adding a mechanic like CD that drastically alters how the combat will play out.

     

    I don't expect an answer about CD, because of the reason above but I will be holding out for as much information as possible for me to be able to see the direction the combat in this game will go. I care not about models and how "pretty" they look, or if they are exactly like a book in norse lore, or what not.

    I want fun, challenging, un-predictable combat ... and no matter what anyone says without that people will not stay with a game long.

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • EdanyEdany Phoenix, AZPosts: 178Member

    Hmm...

    I have been all for CD and rather enjoyed the implications of it in WAR. That said, I never played a tank and I never played a caster. Honestly, after reading your post I can definitely see the case made against it, especially in light of the limitations put on tanks vs. functionality. I will be re-thinking my position of supporting it for sure. Good input.

    Maybe if you like the concept of the game, but can't see throwing serious money behind it, pitch in a $1 pledge to show interest but not full support?

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by Tanemund

    Personally I think it was the separation of PvE and RvR that made DAoC great.  Before Shrouded Isle the only impact PvE had on RvR was character level and the best armor drops you could get, which was epic armor.  If you wanted to PvE without interruption you could do it in your realm.  Well and good.  You could get your levels and armor without being subject to interruption by enemies.

     

    If you wanted to PvE with the excitement of possibly getting ganked by an enemy you could go out on one of the three frontiers.  It gave PvE a little extra pop because you knew when you went out there you were taking your life in your hands and enemies out there could wait until you pulled monsters and then gank you during the fight giving you an XP death and a grave you probably couldn't reach.

     

    And if you wanted to RvR you hit the frontiers (meaning you probably ran to Emain) and did your thing.

     

    RvR deaths didn't set you back with an XP death penalty.  You could PvE your butt off at level 50 and yet pretty much everyone had what everyone else had when it came to armor and arms.  Once a toon hit 50 and got its epic gear, it was pretty much done as far as PvE was concerned.  There weren't many raids or bosses to kill to get better gear and truthfully if you wanted to make your level 50 toon more powerful then the only way to do it was to RvR and get realm ranks to get realm abilities.  The separation kept things fairly even.  Most folks didn't even PvE with their level 50s because they didn't want to wear out their Epic Armor killing monsters.  Instead we parked our level 50 in a boarder keep and roled an alt to play while we waited for our next run in RvR or the next Call to Arms.  (And if you were a Hib your bound in Tir na mBeo so you could get a horse ride back to the boarder keep when you got killed in RvR.  If you were a Mid you bound in Huginfeld.  I never played Alb before they put the bindstones in the boarder keeps).

     

    With Shrouded Isles the separation began to break down a bit.  The new zones added new quests and PvE content that produced items that helped even level 50 toons become more powerful.  Used in conjunction with spellcrafting (the ability to imbue stats on player made armor and weapons) these new PvE items helped all the level 50s maximize their stats and resists.  It took a bit but pretty soon everyone's level 50s had maxed out and were tear assing around the frontier again.  With toons that hit level 50 after SI came out, you simply planned these SI quests and PvE content into your regular leveling from 1 to 50 and the only difference between that toon and the toon that had been RvRing for a few months was realm rank, which you got by doing RvR not PvE.

     

    Then Trials of Atlantis hit and the wall between PvE and PvP came crashing down.  We were told that Trials of Atlantis would only make small "linear" changes to level 50 characters.  We were told that Trials of Atlantis wouldn't be necessary to RvR.  Trials of Atlantis added 10 new levels to the game, but instead of being honest and raising the level cap, Mythic called them Master Levels 1 - 10 and you gained them by doing 10 (one for each level) four to twelve hour PvE raids.  On top of that Mythic added Relic encounters where you could get items that had huge bonuses by completeing a task (usually killing some boss somewhere) and then you had to level the item up by doing MORE PvE activities (killing demon type mobs for example).

     

    At first most people just dabbled with Trials of Atlantis.  That was until the first group with three High Master Level Mana specced Enchanters templated in artifacts so their stats were completely blown out of proportion set up two or three Power Fonts in a keep's lord room and began to blow entire realms worth of enemies into smoking piles of flesh.  My group used to laugh and call it Focus Pulling Albs (the realm of Albion had the biggest population on our server) and it was fun for about a week.  Our realm ranks soared to previously unheard of heights and we could pretty much shut down any frontier we wanted by hitting a choke point, setting up shop and spamming the "1" key.  Then, frankly, it got boring.  There was no great skill involved beyond the fact that I could do simple math to formulate a template and the fact that the job I had when I first picked up the game and the lack of a family allowed me long hours of uninterrupted playing time.  Once I spent the time it was a simple matter of getting in the right place and pushing the same key over and over until all the people with red names were either dead or running away.  It was like playing in God Mode and for a while people didn't come out to the frontiers to play when we were out.  This complete inequity offended the hell out of people.

     

    The most offended were those that had been playing since release (Yo!) and had been RvRing for two years prior to the release of ToA.  Suddenely your level 50 realm rank six whatever that had served you well since 2001 was simply cannon fodder for those that were ML10 and templated with artifacts.  Without doing the Trials of Atlantis PvE you didn't stand a chance in RvR.  So people reacted in one of two ways.

     

    Those with the time to do it (remember we're talking about raiding here.  No doing it in nice clean 1 hour bites.  You had to sit at your comp for 4 to 10 hours straight when ToA first came out.  AND you'd better be available when the raid started because there was no catching up once it got rolling.  AND you needed 10 to 25 of your closest friends with you to finish most of these raids.  AND all of this assumes you don't wipe, lose half the people in the raid to Real Life and have to start all over.) hit content in Trials of Atlantis with renewed vigor.  The ground through the raids and ground up their artifacts to template their toons and a few months later they came back to the frontiers.

     

    Those without the time quit the game.  In the end that's what got me.  We decided we needed to change toons to make a stronger RvR group (This was the beginning of the age of the Determination Tank) and I decided I couldn't afford the time to go from level 1 to 50 (the average time was 15 to 20 days /played to reach level 50 back then) and spend more time doing Trials of Atlantis stuff.  I had a new family and I just couldn't spend four to six hours a day parked in front of my computer anymore. 

     

    Around that time City of Heroes came out and I decided to give that a try since it was much more "casual player" friendly.

     

    I know that Mythic made "Classic servers" without ToA and I know they've dumbed down ToA rediculously since I played but the wall between PvE and RvR has stayed broken and to me that was the death knell of the game.  It's possible for a game to have great PvE and great PvP, but as soon as one area crosses over and becomes necessary to be competative in the other area beyond normal leveling up, then the game goes from skill based to a contest of who can afford the Real Life time to plow through the content.

     

    Just my two coppers.  YMMV.

    Best.

    Post.

    Ever.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    DAOC didn't have collision detection, and WAR did. That by itself makes me lean against it especially if it has a big impact on server or client performance (which it surely does). We would never have gotten through the AMG in Emain (or taken a keep) in DAOC if it had had CD and Hibs could have just stacked their tanks in front of the gate with PBAERs right behind them and healers off to the side untouchable. It would have been a totally different and much less fun game with CD. I guess I'm on the side of those who would prefer it not be in CU although I'm willing to see how it plays with CD in beta if CSE feels strongly about it being included.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by Edany

    Hmm...

    I have been all for CD and rather enjoyed the implications of it in WAR. That said, I never played a tank and I never played a caster. Honestly, after reading your post I can definitely see the case made against it, especially in light of the limitations put on tanks vs. functionality. I will be re-thinking my position of supporting it for sure. Good input.

    Maybe if you like the concept of the game, but can't see throwing serious money behind it, pitch in a $1 pledge to show interest but not full support?

    I could, but there's no purpose behind that yet unless I wanted to talk in the comments thread. If i put in a dollar to up the backers count it solves nothing as the $ value is all that matters in the end.

    To get this over teh finish line looking at the trends will we have to continue as is without bad days of drop and a big rush at the end. I shall fit into the big rush at the end unless information comes to light earlier.

     

     

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    Originally posted by Tanemund

    Personally I think it was the separation of PvE and RvR that made DAoC great.  Before Shrouded Isle the only impact PvE had on RvR was character level and the best armor drops you could get, which was epic armor.  If you wanted to PvE without interruption you could do it in your realm.  Well and good.  You could get your levels and armor without being subject to interruption by enemies.

     

    If you wanted to PvE with the excitement of possibly getting ganked by an enemy you could go out on one of the three frontiers.  It gave PvE a little extra pop because you knew when you went out there you were taking your life in your hands and enemies out there could wait until you pulled monsters and then gank you during the fight giving you an XP death and a grave you probably couldn't reach.

     

    And if you wanted to RvR you hit the frontiers (meaning you probably ran to Emain) and did your thing.

     

    RvR deaths didn't set you back with an XP death penalty.  You could PvE your butt off at level 50 and yet pretty much everyone had what everyone else had when it came to armor and arms.  Once a toon hit 50 and got its epic gear, it was pretty much done as far as PvE was concerned.  There weren't many raids or bosses to kill to get better gear and truthfully if you wanted to make your level 50 toon more powerful then the only way to do it was to RvR and get realm ranks to get realm abilities.  The separation kept things fairly even.  Most folks didn't even PvE with their level 50s because they didn't want to wear out their Epic Armor killing monsters.  Instead we parked our level 50 in a boarder keep and roled an alt to play while we waited for our next run in RvR or the next Call to Arms.  (And if you were a Hib your bound in Tir na mBeo so you could get a horse ride back to the boarder keep when you got killed in RvR.  If you were a Mid you bound in Huginfeld.  I never played Alb before they put the bindstones in the boarder keeps).

     

    With Shrouded Isles the separation began to break down a bit.  The new zones added new quests and PvE content that produced items that helped even level 50 toons become more powerful.  Used in conjunction with spellcrafting (the ability to imbue stats on player made armor and weapons) these new PvE items helped all the level 50s maximize their stats and resists.  It took a bit but pretty soon everyone's level 50s had maxed out and were tear assing around the frontier again.  With toons that hit level 50 after SI came out, you simply planned these SI quests and PvE content into your regular leveling from 1 to 50 and the only difference between that toon and the toon that had been RvRing for a few months was realm rank, which you got by doing RvR not PvE.

     

    Then Trials of Atlantis hit and the wall between PvE and PvP came crashing down.  We were told that Trials of Atlantis would only make small "linear" changes to level 50 characters.  We were told that Trials of Atlantis wouldn't be necessary to RvR.  Trials of Atlantis added 10 new levels to the game, but instead of being honest and raising the level cap, Mythic called them Master Levels 1 - 10 and you gained them by doing 10 (one for each level) four to twelve hour PvE raids.  On top of that Mythic added Relic encounters where you could get items that had huge bonuses by completeing a task (usually killing some boss somewhere) and then you had to level the item up by doing MORE PvE activities (killing demon type mobs for example).

     

    At first most people just dabbled with Trials of Atlantis.  That was until the first group with three High Master Level Mana specced Enchanters templated in artifacts so their stats were completely blown out of proportion set up two or three Power Fonts in a keep's lord room and began to blow entire realms worth of enemies into smoking piles of flesh.  My group used to laugh and call it Focus Pulling Albs (the realm of Albion had the biggest population on our server) and it was fun for about a week.  Our realm ranks soared to previously unheard of heights and we could pretty much shut down any frontier we wanted by hitting a choke point, setting up shop and spamming the "1" key.  Then, frankly, it got boring.  There was no great skill involved beyond the fact that I could do simple math to formulate a template and the fact that the job I had when I first picked up the game and the lack of a family allowed me long hours of uninterrupted playing time.  Once I spent the time it was a simple matter of getting in the right place and pushing the same key over and over until all the people with red names were either dead or running away.  It was like playing in God Mode and for a while people didn't come out to the frontiers to play when we were out.  This complete inequity offended the hell out of people.

     

    The most offended were those that had been playing since release (Yo!) and had been RvRing for two years prior to the release of ToA.  Suddenely your level 50 realm rank six whatever that had served you well since 2001 was simply cannon fodder for those that were ML10 and templated with artifacts.  Without doing the Trials of Atlantis PvE you didn't stand a chance in RvR.  So people reacted in one of two ways.

     

    Those with the time to do it (remember we're talking about raiding here.  No doing it in nice clean 1 hour bites.  You had to sit at your comp for 4 to 10 hours straight when ToA first came out.  AND you'd better be available when the raid started because there was no catching up once it got rolling.  AND you needed 10 to 25 of your closest friends with you to finish most of these raids.  AND all of this assumes you don't wipe, lose half the people in the raid to Real Life and have to start all over.) hit content in Trials of Atlantis with renewed vigor.  The ground through the raids and ground up their artifacts to template their toons and a few months later they came back to the frontiers.

     

    Those without the time quit the game.  In the end that's what got me.  We decided we needed to change toons to make a stronger RvR group (This was the beginning of the age of the Determination Tank) and I decided I couldn't afford the time to go from level 1 to 50 (the average time was 15 to 20 days /played to reach level 50 back then) and spend more time doing Trials of Atlantis stuff.  I had a new family and I just couldn't spend four to six hours a day parked in front of my computer anymore. 

     

    Around that time City of Heroes came out and I decided to give that a try since it was much more "casual player" friendly.

     

    I know that Mythic made "Classic servers" without ToA and I know they've dumbed down ToA rediculously since I played but the wall between PvE and RvR has stayed broken and to me that was the death knell of the game.  It's possible for a game to have great PvE and great PvP, but as soon as one area crosses over and becomes necessary to be competative in the other area beyond normal leveling up, then the game goes from skill based to a contest of who can afford the Real Life time to plow through the content.

     

    Just my two coppers.  YMMV.

    Best.

    Post.

    Ever.

    Agreed, terrific summary of what went down with TOA and the "real" reason DAOC population tapered off hard, had very little to do with the release of WOW as Mark and others seem to believe. (just because something occurs at the same time doesn't mean the two events are directly related)

    This was particularly horrid on Mordred when Torcan and maybe one other guild ground a few groups to ML-10 with max level artifacts and could not be stopped, no matter how big a zerg one threw at them. (heck at times you couldn't kill a single player, no matter how focused your assist train was.)

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • MasahikoKobeMasahikoKobe Plantation, FLPosts: 51Member
    If anyone is still reading at this point. I do remember hearing that the sub isnt going to be the current going sub rate of 15. For a game like this i would expect it to be less.
  • EdanyEdany Phoenix, AZPosts: 178Member
    Originally posted by MasahikoKobe
    If anyone is still reading at this point. I do remember hearing that the sub isnt going to be the current going sub rate of 15. For a game like this i would expect it to be less.

    That is correct. And the subscription price will be further discounted for Kickstarter backers.

  • HjamnrHjamnr Madison, WIPosts: 163Member
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
    Originally posted by Edany

    Hmm...

    I have been all for CD and rather enjoyed the implications of it in WAR. That said, I never played a tank and I never played a caster. Honestly, after reading your post I can definitely see the case made against it, especially in light of the limitations put on tanks vs. functionality. I will be re-thinking my position of supporting it for sure. Good input.

    Maybe if you like the concept of the game, but can't see throwing serious money behind it, pitch in a $1 pledge to show interest but not full support?

    I could, but there's no purpose behind that yet unless I wanted to talk in the comments thread. If i put in a dollar to up the backers count it solves nothing as the $ value is all that matters in the end.

    To get this over teh finish line looking at the trends will we have to continue as is without bad days of drop and a big rush at the end. I shall fit into the big rush at the end unless information comes to light earlier.

     

     

    No, the $$ amount is not all that matters.  # of backers is also a very important number. 

    If 200 people donated $10,000 each, the game would be much less viable than if 100,000 people each donated $20.  You must remember that in addition to the money, this KS is also a test/poll to gauge player interest.

    This reason is why you may see folks suggesting a $1 or $5 level choice for people who are on the fence.  It shows that you are interested in the proposed product, but waiting to see more.  Displaying the interest is key.

  • EasymodeXEasymodeX No, VAPosts: 149Member
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

     

    In my mind all I see is CD lowering the tactical options for attacking realms and forcing all battles to play out the same, which gets boring no?

    It's not hard to give tanks abilities / skills to make them fun / beneficial to the game instead of adding a mechanic like CD that drastically alters how the combat will play out.

    As long as the game is designed to support it, then CD adds depth to the combat -- period.

    That condition is not trivial though.  There are technical limitations with CD (everything from the raw computing on the server, to client communications that can result in rubberbanding).

    That aside, a PvP game can be successful without CD, no question.  That's not really a point of discussion, except by idiots.

    The big deal is that the game combat system needs to incorporate sufficient play and counterplay, just like "everything else".

    Everything else is the key point -- most combat mechanics have been around in dozens and dozens of games and have been refined enough such that players know what to expect in general.  Melee versus ranged combat for example -- how is melee ever supposed to win?  Nowadays, players expect dashes, teleports, leaps, sprint.  Melee tends to have more durability.  Range tends to be more glass.  Melee tends to have more DPS, or more burst, or both.  All these nuances of "melee vs. range" indicate a more robust and mature mechanic that has undergone a lot of tuning over the years and over the games.

     

    Collision detection, not so much.  Fewer games have CD.  Fewer MMOs have CD.  So, CD is a less mature system.  Warhammer had a dozen patches which altered the combat mechanics surrounding CD -- AOE cap changes, morale changes, ally-CD changes, etc etc.  CD is a less "mature" mechanic in the genre of MMORPGs than other mechanics like "melee versus range".

     

    However, that doesn't mean it's bad.  It is, in fact, a great mechanic, but it needs more attention and tuning since it's not done as often and has less precedent -- both on the developer side and on the player side (e.g. players have not had to deal with CD as long, so they don't know how to play against it as intuitively as melee vs. range).

     

    That's all.  It's honestly not worth the ridiculous deluge of discussion and argument spawned in the other thread.  Simply put, it's a good mechanic if CU designs for it, if they balance for it, and if the client/server tech can handle it.  If not, then it's not a good mechanic.

  • BinafusBinafus Eastland, TXPosts: 220Member
    Originally posted by Varsheva

    Former DAOC player here who has not yet supported the KS.

    First off I do wish the team luck in the KS but I just wonder if the no-PVE decision was the best. I know a lot of people played DAOC because of the RvR but for me that was only one aspect. For me the best part was the dependency between RvR/PvE in the design as evidenced by the Darkess Falls megadungeon. I stayed with DAOC for something like a year (left just before TOA)  which was the longest stay in any MMO for me. 

    For me I just can't support a PvP only game. Even PvP oriented games likes Shadowbane, Darkfall and Eve had/have a large PvE component. I know not having PvE content will save a ton of development time but you are talking a niche within a niche of people who will play which is being shown by the limited # people pledgeing, although they are pledgeing high amounts.

    If they had said 'DAOC 2' I would be there in a heartbeat.. but a PvP only game, I will pass.  Just wondering who prevalent this might be in the former DAOC community?

     

    DAOC Midgard - Bedevere server!

    No PVE makes the game cheaper, less to mess with, easier to balance.

    You can not be a niche game if you are going to do everything.

    There are alot of free to play games now that you can get your feel of PVE for free the come play Camelot Unchained when you want some Great RvR

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by EasymodeX
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

     

    In my mind all I see is CD lowering the tactical options for attacking realms and forcing all battles to play out the same, which gets boring no?

    It's not hard to give tanks abilities / skills to make them fun / beneficial to the game instead of adding a mechanic like CD that drastically alters how the combat will play out.

    As long as the game is designed to support it, then CD adds depth to the combat -- period.

    That condition is not trivial though.  There are technical limitations with CD (everything from the raw computing on the server, to client communications that can result in rubberbanding).

    That aside, a PvP game can be successful without CD, no question.  That's not really a point of discussion, except by idiots.

    The big deal is that the game combat system needs to incorporate sufficient play and counterplay, just like "everything else".

    Everything else is the key point -- most combat mechanics have been around in dozens and dozens of games and have been refined enough such that players know what to expect in general.  Melee versus ranged combat for example -- how is melee ever supposed to win?  Nowadays, players expect dashes, teleports, leaps, sprint.  Melee tends to have more durability.  Range tends to be more glass.  Melee tends to have more DPS, or more burst, or both.  All these nuances of "melee vs. range" indicate a more robust and mature mechanic that has undergone a lot of tuning over the years and over the games.

     

    Collision detection, not so much.  Fewer games have CD.  Fewer MMOs have CD.  So, CD is a less mature system.  Warhammer had a dozen patches which altered the combat mechanics surrounding CD -- AOE cap changes, morale changes, ally-CD changes, etc etc.  CD is a less "mature" mechanic in the genre of MMORPGs than other mechanics like "melee versus range".

     

    However, that doesn't mean it's bad.  It is, in fact, a great mechanic, but it needs more attention and tuning since it's not done as often and has less precedent -- both on the developer side and on the player side (e.g. players have not had to deal with CD as long, so they don't know how to play against it as intuitively as melee vs. range).

     

    That's all.  It's honestly not worth the ridiculous deluge of discussion and argument spawned in the other thread.  Simply put, it's a good mechanic if CU designs for it, if they balance for it, and if the client/server tech can handle it.  If not, then it's not a good mechanic.

    Adding more depth to combat sure it does, it just adds another obstacle to think about, but like I pointed out it removes other options as well so imo it doesn't make it any more or less tactical. Linear tactics have less options, with CD this game will for sure turn into the same proceedure while attacking keeps and defending, unless killing tanks is super easy in which case tanks will complain they arn't able to provide any benefit and you're back to square 1. Easier imo to remove it and balance a combat system around it ( not requiring knockbacks, pulls, etc.. ).

    Also adding more depth to combat isn't always a good thing, many games over complicate combat ( imo leaps, pulls, knockbacks are these over complications ). I am and will always be a fan of simple is better, the more simple combat is the more fun / long lasting fun I have with it, I know you may not share this opinion as it is well ... an opinion.

    I expect them to likely toy with CD at some point because of all the people asking, but from everything they say about having to reduce graphical enhancements to keep playability, I can see them dropping CD really fast if it has any sort of reasonable affect on performance. It should be decided early though as its a waste to develop spells and bother balancing how combat / melee and casters will interact as these things will have to be much different with and without CD.

     

    I personally think this is a great point of discussion as it is a key piece of information that will take your combat system one direction vs. the other. This is one of the most important issues when designing a combat system, if you don't take it into account you will end up wasting resources fixing things when you get into beta, but that's not my decision to make. I just hope to keep the discussion going because everyone screaming for CD has a very linear thought process on why it's better and needed. Mis-information and lack of seeing the big picture is the largest challenge CSE will have when trying to listen to so many backers.

    I hope they take everything people say in comment threads with a grain of salt and believe they will, don't think they are that foolish ... but that makes it hard keeping a niche market intact.

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by Hjamnr
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
    Originally posted by Edany

    Hmm...

    I have been all for CD and rather enjoyed the implications of it in WAR. That said, I never played a tank and I never played a caster. Honestly, after reading your post I can definitely see the case made against it, especially in light of the limitations put on tanks vs. functionality. I will be re-thinking my position of supporting it for sure. Good input.

    Maybe if you like the concept of the game, but can't see throwing serious money behind it, pitch in a $1 pledge to show interest but not full support?

    I could, but there's no purpose behind that yet unless I wanted to talk in the comments thread. If i put in a dollar to up the backers count it solves nothing as the $ value is all that matters in the end.

    To get this over teh finish line looking at the trends will we have to continue as is without bad days of drop and a big rush at the end. I shall fit into the big rush at the end unless information comes to light earlier.

     

     

    No, the $$ amount is not all that matters.  # of backers is also a very important number. 

    If 200 people donated $10,000 each, the game would be much less viable than if 100,000 people each donated $20.  You must remember that in addition to the money, this KS is also a test/poll to gauge player interest.

    This reason is why you may see folks suggesting a $1 or $5 level choice for people who are on the fence.  It shows that you are interested in the proposed product, but waiting to see more.  Displaying the interest is key.

    My point was me backing 1$ now and removing it, or backing 1-?? later there's no difference, until that kickstarter time ticks to zero whenever I add my donation will not matter. The only thing it satisfys is you people's curiousity.

    There's plenty of time I wouldn't get too upset about it the path the kickstarter is on is a good sign for this project being backed.

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • poisonmanpoisonman Warwick, RIPosts: 59Member

    If you are at all interested in the game and say you will back the game once it is Funded or buy it when it is released.

    Then why not help make sure it is Funded and Released and pledge $1 or $5 or for as low as $25 you get a copy of the game some free play time and beta access and some other things. 

    I mean the game is going to be $50-$60 bucks when it comes out like every other game im sure, so you saving a bunch right there.  And if the Kickstarter doesn't Fund you are never charged anyways so there is no obligation or reason to worry.  

    But atleast if you do back the game you will be helping get it a little bit closer to Funding.  I just don't understand if you are interested, why not?

    Plus as a backer you get to help develop and shape the game through discussion, polls, feedback, testing, etc.

    You get way more back in return then what you put in money wise, it is far better then pre-ordering or waiting till release and buying it, a lot cheaper if you do the low tiers and you get to help make the game.

    Help the cause!

  • VariansVarians copenhagenPosts: 10Member
    I did daoc till I was numb, and im not holding back. My only concern is, how to balance CU vs. work
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