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Originally posted by WizardryI remeber reading the Kickstarter site and i am not sure what really happens if it fails.I do know that around 20% of the total is lost,never gets into the game.I am pretty sure i also read that if it fails,no money is taken.What happens then is anyone's guess,not likely to see money handed back to the people lol.Personally i don't like to see failures but yes some developers ask for it.It is imo not fair to ask for people to support a game the way it is being done.The REAL LEGIT way is to offer up shares,that way the people get a true investment,this is EACTALY what a buddy of mine did with his PC company.Tghe perks or bribes should NOT be part of it.The actual gaming part should be fair to all who eventually purchase it,there shouldn't be any of that pre ordfer or first into game,alienating all other customers.Personally i feel alienating customers ,is like a slap in the face,there is away to do everything and i just mentioned one via shares.
After reading your post, I'm not sure if you understand Kickstarter. If it doesn't fund, no one is charged. Either they get the money, or no one pays at all. Not fair to offer rewards for pledging? Do you even buy games ever? In-game items and similar things are offered for pre-orders or pledging for a game almost always. Also, none of these items are game-changing. They are cosmetic/fun items and things like that. It doesn't sound like you have the slightest clue of how anything related to this game/project works. Please read up before you post.
Also, you really think a game developer is going to offer shares to people for pledging (basically pre-ordering with perks)? That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard, trying to compare this to your "friend's PC company."
Originally posted by Hjamnr Originally posted by botrytis Originally posted by poisonman Originally posted by Sxadana Any thoughts ?
Have you or any of your friends / fellow skeptics seen this video yet?
Yes I have - and my response is so? It is NPC's NOT real players and the graphics are terrible. Ohter games have shown similar demos - it is more impressive when you have LIVE players with all the internet delays, etc playing that way, then they would have something. If it would be with Alpha testers and not a tech demo like, 'See what we can do!!' I think it would be more amazing.
I am not saying I want CU to die, on the contrary but I would like some semblence of a reality checks in these threads is all. Hype does not do well with games. All it does is raises hopes to get them dashed on the rocks.
I have worked my whole career in start-ups - biotech start-ups. I have put enough of my money, blood, sweat and, tears into them. Out of the 5 so far I have worked for - 3 have died and never came back. That is actually a good ratio because it is more ilke 1 in 100 survive the start-up phase. The same happens to games. Out of how many trying to get Kickstarter money have actually made it to the 'big dance'? I play games to enjoy myself, not to actually help to design one. If I was going to, it would not be like this.
No, I don't want CU to die but people keep talking about it like it is a done deal and they have a open beta test running. They have nothing, just dreams and there is nothing wrong with that but they are not playable.
"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum
This. Is. Not. A. F***ng. Pre-Order.
Damn I don't understand some people here. If you want to pre-order the game then leave 50 bucks in early 2015 instead of 25 bucks right now, stop watching this kickstarter and stop bitching about it.
Originally posted by Aeodo This. Is. Not. A. F***ng. Pre-Order. Damn I don't understand some people here. If you want to pre-order the game then leave 50 bucks in early 2015 instead of 25 bucks right now, stop watching this kickstarter and stop bitching about it.
To me those kickstarter tier rewards are just that... nice rewards as thanks for your pledge.
The real motivating factor for pledging to the kickstarter shouldn't be to get the reward, but rather because you believe in this project and want it to succeed. The reward tiers are just a nice bonus if it does fund.
Basically a bunch of players, with direction from MJ/CSE, saying hey we really like the idea for this game, and it sounds really fun and unique. Let's pool our resources and make this happen!
If not enough people feel that way, it won't happen. Simple as that.
Stop thinking with the same thought process these big time / big money publishers like EA have indoctrinated you with, and break free of those chains.
viva la revolucion! LOL
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOCTuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
Its just the same 3 people whining about no gameplay video over and over.
The difference with this game is that its a full MMO which will need to certain minimum number of subscribers to be viable. None of the other KS games are subscription based.
The main point of the KS is to measure the number of people who would be willing to get behind this type of game. The FPs give a lot more meaningful information than any 2 minute long showcase video with vague stock footage.
If the KS fails then it will show that there are not enough people to fill this niche and the idea will die and we can all look forward to the theme-park of the month with minor innovations that all the main publishers keep spewing out.
If the current information available is not worth a 25 dollar pledge then sorry, but you are not the type of player CU is meant for. CU is directed towards those who are more interested in the foundation concepts rather than a flashy sales demo.
If the KS fails it will be because MJ actually over-estimated the intelligence of the MMO playerbase.
I do not believe that if this KS fails it will be a blessing in any way, shape, or form. It will only serve to promote the somewhat awkward notion that in order to successfully fund a game through or even with the help of KS you have to have funding already which is pretty contrary to the idea behind Kickstarter (it is in the name).
PvP focused MMOs are a niche already, an MMO with progression through PvP based activities only is a niche within that niche and that is not an unknown piece of information. Trying to say that a single person should drop $2 million on a potential no go to demonstrate his passionate is pretty ridiculous, 2 million dollars (of the man's personal money) is a huge amount of money to spend on something that may or may not have a large enough target audience. Getting a feel for the size of your audience and just what they want to see in a game of this nature is a much smarter move if they hope to have a chance of long term success. Not only does it provide a small studio with a better sense of the size of the target audience for their very niche game concept but doing it in this way also allows that target audience to participate from the point of creation and have some very real impact on the game itself rather than just be told "This is what you are getting, deal with it."
And yes, backing a project of this nature also helps to promote the development of games by smaller studios and without the leash of a major publisher. Not necessarily saying that you will be "Sticking it to the man", but more along the lines of that you will be helping to promote the notion of KS as a viable alternative source of funding for niche games. The more successful projects the more viable said alternative will look to future individuals/groups/studios/etc. Will this one project fundamentally alter the state of the entire gaming industry? Probably not, but not backing (especially if you like the idea but not necessarily the execution) is not helping anything.
Are there items that could have been better addressed before the KS began? Absolutely, you would probably be hard pressed to find an example of a perfectly executed KS campaign if one even exists. Are there things this team has done better than others up until this point? Again, yes. Unlike some projects you know exactly where this one is in progression, you have not been shown a "gameplay" video using an engine that may or may not be used simply to get you to open your wallet. Instead you have been shown a proof of concept which was stated as such and then shown an evolution of that and promised further iterations as a means by which to judge the team behind the project. You have been told up front about the length of development and the expected alpha/beta invite times and that they may or may not change.
If you do not wish to back the project I am pretty sure that nobody is forcing you to, I doubt anyone is holding a virtual or physical gun to your head telling you to click the green button. But if you are not backing on the basis that you haven't been shown enough flashy artwork or videos or have a problem with their website or with their execution then you are missing the point. Right now it is about the idea, if you choose to back this idea then great. If you choose not to back the idea just yet because you are waiting for more substance before you decide then hopefully you see what you want before the end. If you choose not to back it simply because it does not appeal to you then I sincerely hope you do back projects that do as that is the whole point. But if you choose not to back the idea because it is only an idea then I honestly do not know what can be said to you.
Originally posted by Nihilist If the KS fails it will be because MJ actually over-estimated the intelligence of the MMO playerbase.
great way to call everyone an idiot who doesn't throw money at a rather poorly presented KS project.
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret Worldhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s.
.The Return of ELITE !
Question: Is it better for any community when the small shops close up, get bought out by the big guy, or simply never open up to begin with because they can't compete in a market dominated by giants?
This is why I say: Everyone, whether you hate RVR, Mark Jacobs, classic/hardcore MMO's, the concept, whatever, and I mean each and everyone one of us here who presumably love(d) mmo's, should be rooting for the success of KS MMO projects such as CU and Pathfinder Online. The people/companies behind these two games aren't hustlers or fly-by-night types. Yes, there will be these types at some point who will try to take advantage of crowdfunding, but it's our responsibility to not get taken by them just as we would avoid scammers in any other walk of life.
Don't let fear over ride common sense when it comes to this. Risk (yes there is always a risk - even when supporting those with the best intentions) only what you are comfortable with and support those who deserve it. Support the mmo community by supporting these small studios/indies.
Niche games can exist alongside the WoWs and GW2s of the world and, as a mmo fan, having both will make the industry and your gaming options better. Innovation will be spurred, jobs will be made, and, perhaps most importantly to us gamers, we will get games that will cater to niches, push boundaries, or dare to innovate.
I won't even begin to tell you that you should pledge money for this or any KS, but you should be hopeful and root for crowdfunding's success in the mmo industry. If projects like Camelot Unchained fail , it could have a big impact on the future of MMO's from a crowdfunding/niche/indie perspective. The big companies will continue on as they have (which isn't bad, but it isn't good if they become the only option for consumers either). In the event of failure of crowdfunding, I think there is good reason to be prepared for another decade of games that directly copy only the most successful in this genre.
TL,DR: MMO gamers should believe in, support, or be hopeful that KS funded MMO projects succeed for the betterment of the genre as a whole
Originally posted by Nihilist If the KS fails it will be because MJ actually over-estimated the intelligence of the MMO playerbase.
1% of MMO gamers: Good idea, will support.
4% of MMO gamers: I still don't know wtf this game is about.
95% of MMO gamers: Camelot who?
I do think we need to get the word out to more people though.
Originally posted by FromHell Originally posted by Nihilist If the KS fails it will be because MJ actually over-estimated the intelligence of the MMO playerbase.
Poorly presented? I know a lot more about CU than I would about any other AAA mmo at this stage of development.
You realise the average backer amount is considerably higher than the other KS games. Its pretty funny that the biggest critics are the people who have to post over and over about why they won't spend 25 dollars.
The masses who want everything FTP and QQ about subs are not the target of this game. They can go play whatever BS SOE / EA / NCsoft are peddling these days.
Are you one of those people who thinks MJ needs to spend a million+ on KS without even knowing if there is a large enough niche to support the game?
Originally posted by Oldskoo If projects like Camelot Unchained fail , it could have a big impact on the future of MMO's from a crowdfunding/niche/indie perspective. The big companies will continue on as they have
Other MMO projects already succeeded on KS, it really doesn't make a difference if one project fails. They could even learn from it, that it doesn't make sense to start a campaign with nothing to show but a few text paragraphs, some concept art and an unconvincing tech demo.
if it succeeds, we'll only be seeing more of this type of KS projects set up with minimal effort, asking for money for imaginary gameplay and "foundation principles"
Sure OP, you make some good points. I felt the same way when I looked over the materials for Elite: Dangerous but I finally wore down because it’s a type of game that wouldn’t get funded or have a shot at being made any other way. It’s a type of game I really love to play and there is no other way to get them on the market once more aside from taking a chance. It was particularly a sore point with me in that Chris Roberts had done such an AMAZING job of showing off Star Citizen at the same time the Elite Kickstarter came out. Nostalgia shouldn’t be used as the only means to win over fan investment.
Originally posted by FromHell Originally posted by Oldskoo If projects like Camelot Unchained fail , it could have a big impact on the future of MMO's from a crowdfunding/niche/indie perspective. The big companies will continue on as they have
actually he is definitelly right - but noone can say what impact. it can have just small one, since there is not (yet) that much of backers, it can have huge negative one for ppl who love open pvp games, because devs will take it as there is not enough interest and will go another way, it can even have positive one in the way that fans of CU will get really longing for such game and next time such game appears they will pursue it even more aggresively.
as for myself, i really hope that CU will succeed both as a KS and as a game itself.
Originally posted by Nihilist Its just the same 3 people whining about no gameplay video over and over. The difference with this game is that its a full MMO which will need to certain minimum number of subscribers to be viable. None of the other KS games are subscription based. The main point of the KS is to measure the number of people who would be willing to get behind this type of game. The FPs give a lot more meaningful information than any 2 minute long showcase video with vague stock footage. If the KS fails then it will show that there are not enough people to fill this niche and the idea will die and we can all look forward to the theme-park of the month with minor innovations that all the main publishers keep spewing out. If the current information available is not worth a 25 dollar pledge then sorry, but you are not the type of player CU is meant for. CU is directed towards those who are more interested in the foundation concepts rather than a flashy sales demo. If the KS fails it will be because MJ actually over-estimated the intelligence of the MMO playerbase.
The point is, Nihilist, just pointing out some flaws. What you are basically saying if we disagree we are trolls and if we agree with you then we are wonderful and worth discussing this topic with. This not a way to discuss anything.
You rightly point out that this game would P2P game which is different than other Kickstarter games. This is an interesting point of discussion - why should it be different? What reasons did MJ give for going P2P over F2P or B2P? I have not read this campaign compared to others. So asking....
Originally posted by botrytis Originally posted by Nihilist Its just the same 3 people whining about no gameplay video over and over. The difference with this game is that its a full MMO which will need to certain minimum number of subscribers to be viable. None of the other KS games are subscription based. The main point of the KS is to measure the number of people who would be willing to get behind this type of game. The FPs give a lot more meaningful information than any 2 minute long showcase video with vague stock footage. If the KS fails then it will show that there are not enough people to fill this niche and the idea will die and we can all look forward to the theme-park of the month with minor innovations that all the main publishers keep spewing out. If the current information available is not worth a 25 dollar pledge then sorry, but you are not the type of player CU is meant for. CU is directed towards those who are more interested in the foundation concepts rather than a flashy sales demo. If the KS fails it will be because MJ actually over-estimated the intelligence of the MMO playerbase.
Wouldn't it make more sense to go out and read the information for yourself, rather than asking those of us who have done our homework to spoon feed it to you? All of the information is there and easily accessible. Put on your big boy pants and skim through some of it if you actually want to know. You really shouldn't even be discussing the topic if you haven't read up on it at all.
In a way I agree. A lot of steam is going towards this game and as of now its all just words mostly, theres nothing really its showing that warrents me seeing investment being really worth wild. Don't get me wrong, kickstarter is there to help get a game the chance to be produced, but at the very least they usually have some examples of it working. An MMO is that much more dependant on funding to run as well which that 2 million seems like chump change for an MMo to be both developed and ran.
I just don't understand why people are so blindly investing in the idea without having more solid details put into place. Its pretty much vapor right now and in a way, if it does succeede it sets up a bad standerd of having very little shown and potentially opening the door for 'ideas' over having anything really to show. When your jumping on the MMO bandwagon, your going to need a lot more to back your game.
I still do hope it works in the end for them, but its not something I see why so much support is being thrown behind when theres no certainty in the end product being done in the right way.
Originally posted by collekt Originally posted by Four0Six Originally posted by Tuktz Gamers everywhere are only hurting themselves if they don't back/fund this. Giant gaming company's (like EA) will laugh that players tried to make a game by the player for the player. They're like the mob/mafia in gaming, and will be like, come crawling back to me for more games after your failed kickstarter LOL. I don't think people realize this is a big chance/opportunity to stick it to them. They're so used to drinking their koolaid, they just keep asking why CU doesn't have koolaid yet? haha
How am I hurting myself?
If you actually understood your "Koolaid" reference, you would know it was a small group (inside of 400), that were murdered as an act of "revolution" against the "Giant society".
If one really wanted to "stick it to em", one should demand a quality product, and only when a quality product is offered, then hand over one's money.
I'm sorry, although I appreicate the desire to "be part of the next great game, whick will be the greatest", I harbor no delusions that me tossing some cash at an idea, has even a remote chance of "solving the gaming community's issues". Just like giving a panhandler $5 doesnt solve the homeless issue. I hope this all works out for you, us, them, but I don't feel any sort of resopnsibility to fund MJ's dream.
If, in the end, CU launches and is good, or even passable, it is likley I will buy it. But I am a jaded consumer, and I have learned my lessons about prepurchasing.
Good lord that is simply an atrocious attempt at an analogy. The success of games that go through something like Kickstarter, and effectively bypass the big publishers that single handedly ruin a lot of games, actually opens up an alternate route for the industry. It furthers the gaming industry, as opposed to hindering it. Giving a homeless guy $5 doesn't further anything, if anything it hinders him. Giving that guy a job might be a different story.
If my analogy is bad, what of your claim that "big publishers ruin alot of games"? I appreciate the seemingly large voice that shouts about all the "bag big publishers do", I wholeheartedly agree. But I can't deny that the industry still grows. Casting doubt on the validity of the "voice". Money talks, if you will. Funding a dream on KS, noble as it may be, is filled with potential doom as far as I can see. So I stay and wait. Maybe CU launches and is great. Maybe a homeless guy heads into a business and asks for a job. I hope so in both cases.
Originally posted by NeoAltoX Frankly I think anyone who wants this Kickstarter to fail is a complete and utter IDIOT. Seriously. If you look at Kickstarter it has always been a place for people to fund there ideas into life or to finish a project that can't be finished without more funding. And the whole point of the Camelot Unchained kickstarter is to show if there is interest in there idea, not to sell pre-orders to whiny gamers. Jacob has made it very clear all over the website and kickstarter that if they don't hit there goal the game WILL NEVER HAPPEN. He's not going to tank his studio on a game that has no serious interest. If you read into the Kickstarter at all you wouldn't even be contemplating what would happen if the Kickstarter bombs. Even if your not particularly interesting in Camelot Unchained this kickstarter is very very important. Mark wants to make an MMO more in line with the pre-casual era of MMO's and he's not afraid to have a small community. If Camelot Unchained is successful it will show that in a post WoW era more "hardcore" and "niche" mmo's CAN thrive. And as far as people calling out a lack of leadership on the project I laugh. Do a little research on the team they have, they have a pretty good setup and talent and Mark Jacobs has been around a long while. Has he made mistakes in the past? Absolutely, and frankly that's what you want. He's been very frank about the mistakes he's made and let happen in the past and has been upfront about things he wants to do to avoid that. His emphasis on in game engine vs premade engine, crowdsourcing vs publisher money, etc. Either way, what's so bad about funding a dream? With Kickstarter your betting on a dream/idea, not pre-ordering a game and I wish people would see it like that. You really should only kickstart a game that you are passionate about, not everyone that comes by, and certainly not wish for one to tank.
Well said! I couldn't agree more. If you don't want to kickstart this project then don't bash it because of whatever bias you have against it....Contribute or don't...
That's not what he said it's how you perceived what he said....Bottom line, if anyone here posts some negative crap on a forum about a game that is on kickstarter to attempt funding are just being silly..Someone please tell me a valid reason to bash a kickstarter idea on a forum please.
Originally posted by Nihilist Its just the same 3 people whining about no gameplay video over and over.
Yea then you show them footage and they make up more stupid excuses to bash with. "But that is not actual gameplay" I haven't seen any actual gameplay on Kickstarter at all, I've only backed 3 projects now, but someone want to point out the "actual gameplay"..... ? I see a lot of videos with people talking in them like talking heads as MJ would say. And I see a lot of as you coined them "Tech" demos. Where is this gameplay you speak of?
On the other hand actual backers and players will be getting hands on with the testing of some Camelot Unchained Smackhammer. Actually Playing > "Actual Gamplay"
Don't worry Nihilist these will be the same people jealous or whinning about not being able to participate in the Camelot Unchained Smackhammer event coming up! Some of these people will be sorry for not having a little faith and putting a few dollars up to see where the project goes and help out even just a little bit.
If the Kickstarter doesn't Fund you don't get charged anyways, they don't take the money from you till the project is both Funded and the 30 days are up.
We will let you naysayers know how it was
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Originally posted by Nihilist The main point of the KS is to measure the number of people who would be willing to get behind this type of game. The FPs give a lot more meaningful information than any 2 minute long showcase video with vague stock footage. If the KS fails it will be because MJ actually over-estimated the intelligence of the MMO playerbase.
the main point of kickstarter to raise money so he can make the game.
i think a lot of people, myself included, are slightly interested in the game at this point. and will probably try it out should it ever see the light of day. but, i play video games. i don't invest in them.
if kickstarter fails it will be because 'MJ' was over-estimating how 'in-touch' he is with the gamers of today. it has nothing to do with itelligence.
If it fails many would not poney up a second time.
This is a great way to make a game and see who is interested in it, they are not trying to make everyone happy which in turn makes this game cheaper to make and cheaper to run once it is live.
Some people act like the idea of not being able PVE is gonna kill them, there are a ton of free to play games you can beat on all the rats and bats you want then when you want to RvR you can log into Camelot Unchained.
All games do not have to be the same thing over and over they are trying a different path here.
If giving five bucks is a major financial decission for any of you guys to support a new idea you should really just hold on to your money.
Success to me, as far as CU or any other MMO funded on KS, goes far beyond simply meeting their campaigns financial goal. It also includes actually getting to market and being a financially viable mmo. We have yet to see that with any KS funded MMO that I am aware of, so the jury is out. Many are in doubt about KS. Others are also skeptical that there is enough support to make games targeted at niche markets amongst MMOs. These things are still being worked out here at this stage of KS and will have an impact on the MMO landscape.
That being said, I will once again urge everyone here to be hopeful that MMO's such as Pathfinder and CU do get to market and that they are fun enough that fans support them. Even if you never personally put one dollar into it, it would be in every MMO gamer's best interest that these projects do so for reasons I stated in my previous post (innovation, more games, more developers having a means to bring their vision to reality, etc).
As far as your concern over CU's presentation, it is true that MJ and team could have done more to present in a manner that was more appealing, but that would have also cost more time and money - time and money that isn't mine. I would have preferred, as a fan, to see more about CU before the KS project started, but only MJ could decide how much he was going to risk investing in this game before knowing if the fans would actually support it or not. Sure, we hear a lot of people around these parts moan about mmo's and clamor for a certain type of game but it doesn't mean these people will actually come out and support it, so this is one way to measure support.
It's too early to tell if his strategy will work or not, but, as he said, if the project doesn't fund the game won't be made. At that point we can all go back to "our scheduled programming" (i.e. the clones that have become the standard around here), and put this entire idea of a pure RvR mmo game behind us.
I see a lot of people saying "I'll buy it if it gets made" or " I'm interested in the idea, but I won't fund it".
The thing is, as has been said several times before, if the KS doesn't fund, this game WON'T GET MADE.
Not by CSE, or by any other company.
Be sure that other gaming companies will be watching this KS, and if it fails, they won't even bother thinking about putting meaningful RvR in their games, as the KS will have "proved" to them that people don't want it.
If you 'd like to play a game like CU , then the only way is to help it get made. Simple as that.