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Proof a PVP MMO will work.

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Comments

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon

    Ok so after reading that I think it proves quite clearly that people like playing MOBA style games more than MMO's. I didn't see anything to indicate MMO players would love a PvP only game.

     

    The last one that tried (FURY) failed miserably. I'm not saying CU will fail, I really hope it doesn't, but that article is pretty irrelevant.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

    Ok so after reading that I think it proves quite clearly that people like playing MOBA style games more than MMO's. I didn't see anything to indicate MMO players would love a PvP only game.

     

    The last one that tried (FURY) failed miserably. I'm not saying CU will fail, I really hope it doesn't, but that article is pretty irrelevant.

    Well the only deduction you could have is that a VERY GOOD mmo with battleground style pvp could be as successful. Not because mmo players will love it perse, but because the Moba players could love it(and they are a lot).

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  • andre369andre369 .Posts: 948Member Uncommon
    BTW, Dota 2 has more players ON STEAM, XFIRE ETC. Not actual total players. A guy form RIot(LoL) said their numbers were wrong and in on EU West server alone they had 500k peak. 
  • SmudgePudgeSmudgePudge Phoenix, AZPosts: 78Member Common

    It sucks that you led with an article that is just patently false because I believe you are correct in relating LoL and DOTA2 to CU. He's not comparing them people, so lay off the fruit analogies. He's relating them. There is a difference.

    People play moba's because they want the unpredictable experience of playing against another human being. They also like the somewhat immediate feedback that comes with relatively fast paced gameplay. Otherwise they would be out playing wow with their grandmas.

    DAoC's RvR was the same way. Most of the people that I knew only played the PvE part of the game because it was the quickest way to get to New Frontiers where the big boy RvR was. MOBA's were created to give people what they wanted - PvP without the grind to level 60. I think CU is going to do the same thing and I wish we could get more of the moba crowd involved. And before you start in with the F2P versus P2P argument - I don't know a single LoL player who hasn't spent at least $75 on the game.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,223Member Uncommon

    Great another duplicate CU thread about pve in a pvp game.

    The best and most successful pvp mmos (EVE and Lineage) have not only had pve, but are about fighting for pve resources.

    The thread title is inaccurate and misleading.  Oh yeah, and comparing a f2p moba and a sub-locked mmo, that makes sense in crazy opposite world.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SmudgePudge

    It sucks that you led with an article that is just patently false because I believe you are correct in relating LoL and DOTA2 to CU. He's not comparing them people, so lay off the fruit analogies. He's relating them. There is a difference.

    People play moba's because they want the unpredictable experience of playing against another human being. They also like the somewhat immediate feedback that comes with relatively fast paced gameplay. Otherwise they would be out playing wow with their grandmas.

    DAoC's RvR was the same way. Most of the people that I knew only played the PvE part of the game because it was the quickest way to get to New Frontiers where the big boy RvR was. MOBA's were created to give people what they wanted - PvP without the grind to level 60. I think CU is going to do the same thing and I wish we could get more of the moba crowd involved. And before you start in with the F2P versus P2P argument - I don't know a single LoL player who hasn't spent at least $75 on the game.

    Simple questions.

    1. Will the players in CU be on a level playing field? By that I mean you can't just be more powerfull than me becuase of the gear you have and your stats.
    2. Will it match me to other players that have the same skill level as me?
    3. Will it have tournaments and a competitive scene?
    4. Can I jump in for a couple of minutes and get into action immediately? Always not just some times.

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  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by SmudgePudge
    It sucks that you led with an article that is just patently false because I believe you are correct in relating LoL and DOTA2 to CU. He's not comparing them people, so lay off the fruit analogies. He's relating them. There is a difference.People play moba's because they want the unpredictable experience of playing against another human being. They also like the somewhat immediate feedback that comes with relatively fast paced gameplay. Otherwise they would be out playing wow with their grandmas.DAoC's RvR was the same way. Most of the people that I knew only played the PvE part of the game because it was the quickest way to get to New Frontiers where the big boy RvR was. MOBA's were created to give people what they wanted - PvP without the grind to level 60. I think CU is going to do the same thing and I wish we could get more of the moba crowd involved. And before you start in with the F2P versus P2P argument - I don't know a single LoL player who hasn't spent at least $75 on the game.

    Thank you for saying it better than I. I bow to you.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    I will answer to the best of my knowledge.

    Will the players in CU be on a level playing field? By that I mean you can't just be more powerfull than me becuase of the gear you have and your stats. It has been said gear will not be the determining factor in your ability to win fights.

    Will it match me to other players that have the same skill level as me? If players truly matched up via equal skill no one would ever win. Someone has to be better so I don't think that is applicable. Will the skill differences vary more than something like LOL, yes.

    Will it have tournaments and a competitive scene? Player made tournaments, maybe but not confrimed. Competitive, ruthlessly.

    Can I jump in for a couple of minutes and get into action immediately? Always not just some times. This is unknown but I believe it will work like so: log in, check map, use nearest portal, run to battle, fight. It's been rumored that run back times won't be crazy, but will exist.

  • KarraptathidKarraptathid Tequesta, FLPosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by TheJoda
    god this game needs to just fail already so I stop hearing about it.

    if it funds you'll have another couple years hearing about it till it launches:)

    Nah, once the Alpha and Beta starts, most of us will be too busy to post in significant numbers. 

    Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
    Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member

    So if PVP MMOs do work, and then Camelot Unchained is dead soon after release, I guess we'll know the kickstart fanatics wasted their money for sure then.

     

    I mean, who doesn't want to pay a developer's salary so that they are allowed to fix their game for them?  Doesn't everyone?  Same as paying McDonalds to let you flip burgers, it comes with a free uniform!! 

    El Psy Congroo

  • TroianmanTroianman Somewhere, CAPosts: 82Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    So if PVP MMOs do work, and then Camelot Unchained is dead soon after release, I guess we'll know the kickstart fanatics wasted their money for sure then.

    If it funds but ultimately fails as a game it still wouldn't be a waste. Spending one's money on things they have a desire to see succeed is never a waste. Have you ever purchased a Humble Bundle simply because you wish to help independent developers have a place in the industry? Or did you perhaps purchase one because you liked one or two of the titles? If so, have you beaten all the games? Do you still play all those games? Did you purchase an NES or SNES ever? Do you still play it and all the games on it? Afterall, you wasted your money if you aren't still playing every single game you have ever purchased in your life.

  • snapfusionsnapfusion San, CAPosts: 954Member
    Who wants to be the guy that tells the OP that LOL is not an MMO..........
  • miagisanmiagisan NY, NYPosts: 5,156Member

    wow....worst comparison ever?

     

    and whomever says eve has no pve has clearly never played it. 

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  • gylnnegylnne South Hutchinson, KSPosts: 320Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    Remember Grog "Acknowledging trolls is like throwing Gizmo into a pool." It's best just to avert your eyes and walk on by.

    Look at how many people PVP in GW2, WOW, SWTOR, LOTR, EVE, DOTA, LOL, etc.

    That establishes that there is enough straight up PVPers in the market.

    Now imagine a MMO where that PVP means something, where it means your house is in danger, where it means your resources are at risk. Thats a lot deeper than the PVP any of the above offer right? Might be pretty appealing to a guy wh used to spend 6 hours a day in AV for his accomplishments to be worthless every new armor set.

    If CU can get even a fraction of the mass PVPers it will do extremely well imho.

    +10

  • SmudgePudgeSmudgePudge Phoenix, AZPosts: 78Member Common
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by SmudgePudge

    It sucks that you led with an article that is just patently false because I believe you are correct in relating LoL and DOTA2 to CU. He's not comparing them people, so lay off the fruit analogies. He's relating them. There is a difference.

    People play moba's because they want the unpredictable experience of playing against another human being. They also like the somewhat immediate feedback that comes with relatively fast paced gameplay. Otherwise they would be out playing wow with their grandmas.

    DAoC's RvR was the same way. Most of the people that I knew only played the PvE part of the game because it was the quickest way to get to New Frontiers where the big boy RvR was. MOBA's were created to give people what they wanted - PvP without the grind to level 60. I think CU is going to do the same thing and I wish we could get more of the moba crowd involved. And before you start in with the F2P versus P2P argument - I don't know a single LoL player who hasn't spent at least $75 on the game.

    Simple questions.

    1. Will the players in CU be on a level playing field? By that I mean you can't just be more powerfull than me becuase of the gear you have and your stats.
    2. Will it match me to other players that have the same skill level as me?
    3. Will it have tournaments and a competitive scene?
    4. Can I jump in for a couple of minutes and get into action immediately? Always not just some times.

    Even though this is basically a troll post I will address the questions because I am sucker for troll bait:

    1. It can certainly be done. DAoC addressed this issue by putting level requirements in certain areas ensuring people of relatively like levels fought against each other. There have been other RvR balancing models that many MMOs have used. This isn't an issue.

    2. Duplicate question.

    3. The vast majority of LoL players have not played in a tournament so I fail to see this as a valid point. As far as competition - this is the whole point of relating the two. It doesn't get anymore competitive from an online gaming standpoint than going up against another human being. This is what moba's and pvp mmo's have in common and what I think is the important point.

    4. lol - the idea that you can jump into the action for a couple of minutes in a moba is laughable.

    So yeah, I see the two very much related. It's about how you want your action delivered to you. It's the same reason I don't understand why people play against bots in a moba - that just doesn't seem fun to me. Likewise I'm pretty much over pve'ing in an MMO. Just takes way too much time, is extremely predictable, and is very repetitive.

    PvP isn't just an MMO term. It's what people who play moba's and online fps's are doing every time they load up the game. The vehicle is different to be sure, but to take this car metaphor out all the way - the race is the same. They are still racing against other human beings rather than racing around a track trying to beat the clock.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    I will answer to the best of my knowledge.

    Will the players in CU be on a level playing field? By that I mean you can't just be more powerfull than me becuase of the gear you have and your stats. It has been said gear will not be the determining factor in your ability to win fights.

    Will it match me to other players that have the same skill level as me? If players truly matched up via equal skill no one would ever win. Someone has to be better so I don't think that is applicable. Will the skill differences vary more than something like LOL, yes.

    Will it have tournaments and a competitive scene? Player made tournaments, maybe but not confrimed. Competitive, ruthlessly.

    Can I jump in for a couple of minutes and get into action immediately? Always not just some times. This is unknown but I believe it will work like so: log in, check map, use nearest portal, run to battle, fight. It's been rumored that run back times won't be crazy, but will exist.

    So gear is just for looks?

     

    I mean matchmaking systems. It won't have that I imagine.

     

    So, no big tournaments like LoL, Dota, SC2.

     

    Again, no.

     

    Essentially it's like expected completely different pvp systems. Which don't really tell us about how popular a RvR MMO can be.

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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SmudgePudge
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by SmudgePudge

    It sucks that you led with an article that is just patently false because I believe you are correct in relating LoL and DOTA2 to CU. He's not comparing them people, so lay off the fruit analogies. He's relating them. There is a difference.

    People play moba's because they want the unpredictable experience of playing against another human being. They also like the somewhat immediate feedback that comes with relatively fast paced gameplay. Otherwise they would be out playing wow with their grandmas.

    DAoC's RvR was the same way. Most of the people that I knew only played the PvE part of the game because it was the quickest way to get to New Frontiers where the big boy RvR was. MOBA's were created to give people what they wanted - PvP without the grind to level 60. I think CU is going to do the same thing and I wish we could get more of the moba crowd involved. And before you start in with the F2P versus P2P argument - I don't know a single LoL player who hasn't spent at least $75 on the game.

    Simple questions.

    1. Will the players in CU be on a level playing field? By that I mean you can't just be more powerfull than me becuase of the gear you have and your stats.
    2. Will it match me to other players that have the same skill level as me?
    3. Will it have tournaments and a competitive scene?
    4. Can I jump in for a couple of minutes and get into action immediately? Always not just some times.

    Even though this is basically a troll post I will address the questions because I am sucker for troll bait:

    1. It can certainly be done. DAoC addressed this issue by putting level requirements in certain areas ensuring people of relatively like levels fought against each other. There have been other RvR balancing models that many MMOs have used. This isn't an issue.

    2. Duplicate question.

    3. The vast majority of LoL players have not played in a tournament so I fail to see this as a valid point. As far as competition - this is the whole point of relating the two. It doesn't get anymore competitive from an online gaming standpoint than going up against another human being. This is what moba's and pvp mmo's have in common and what I think is the important point.

    4. lol - the idea that you can jump into the action for a couple of minutes in a moba is laughable.

    So yeah, I see the two very much related. It's about how you want your action delivered to you. It's the same reason I don't understand why people play against bots in a moba - that just doesn't seem fun to me. Likewise I'm pretty much over pve'ing in an MMO. Just takes way too much time, is extremely predictable, and is very repetitive.

    PvP isn't just an MMO term. It's what people who play moba's and online fps's are doing every time they load up the game. The vehicle is different to be sure, but to take this car metaphor out all the way - the race is the same. They are still racing against other human beings rather than racing around a track trying to beat the clock.

    1. Will gear be a factor or is it ONLY for looks?

    2. Completely different question. This is about matchmaking systems which rely on win/lose ratios and other stats to determine who to match you up against. You know what all those games he mentioned have.

    3. Their tournaments are a BIG part, even if you don't participate. And they do have smaller scale tournaments within their ladders(some).

    4. You can and you don't have to look for a fight like in RvR.

     

    Key is those players will not go for unbalanced pvp, which is what RvR is. The moba style pvp is the same as shooters, shot, balanced, and to the point. No dicking around with big meta games and not having to worry about gearing up before I go in there. For new folks the matchmaking system brings a level playing field so they don't get eaten by the veterans, which is a taboo in RvR mmos to think about the new guy.

     

    And there is a pvp system in mmos that matches mobas, it's BG's. BTW I love me some RvR it's just that the comparison is off. Just because it's pvp doesn't mean they are the same and that you will like both.

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  • ExcessionExcession NottinghamPosts: 367Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    I keep hearing "A game without PVE will never work! You have to add PVE!"

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/10/research-firm-says-dota-2-tops-league-of-legends/

    Oh my ;)

    You should have used PS2 as an example, since that is an MMO, and all you can do is PVP.

     

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member
    Originally posted by faided
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    I keep hearing "A game without PVE will never work! You have to add PVE!"

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/10/research-firm-says-dota-2-tops-league-of-legends/

    Oh my ;)

    Sorry to burst your Bubble.  Someone can Jungle for an entire Match if they want to thus avoiding PvP.

    That defeats the ENTIRE point of MOBA games, if someone "jungles" the entire match you report them and get them banned.

     

    The ENTIRE point of the game is pvp, if someone jungles and doesn't fight othe rplayers on the enemy team the entire fight they are "Trolling" and should be banned.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    "Key is those players will not go for unbalanced pvp, which is what RvR is. The moba style pvp is the same as shooters, shot, balanced, and to the point. No dicking around with big meta games and not having to worry about gearing up before I go in there. For new folks the matchmaking system brings a level playing field so they don't get eaten by the veterans, which is a taboo in RvR mmos to think about the new guy."

    I have to say, as an old school FPSer you definitely HAVE to gear right. Especially since so many FPS's have added levels and gear set-ups. If you don't gear for the map your in trouble. As for balance, need I reference the COD turbio knifers? I loved that the best build in my FPS was a guy running fast with a knife. That drove me crazy. The playing field was also rarely level. In every match you have 2 or 3 top guys maul everyone and 1 team usually dominated because of them. Add in the meta game of things like perks, and weapon unlocks and you have a another level of balance issues. I remember playing...oh god I'm getting old...don't remember the FPS but they had to patch the game after 3 months because they accidentally made a sniper rifle so OP if you got shot in the toe you died. Not trying to be harsh, but I've played a lot of FPS's and balance was a rarity. I don't know if the MOBas have done a better job or not. I haven't played them, just observed.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    "Key is those players will not go for unbalanced pvp, which is what RvR is. The moba style pvp is the same as shooters, shot, balanced, and to the point. No dicking around with big meta games and not having to worry about gearing up before I go in there. For new folks the matchmaking system brings a level playing field so they don't get eaten by the veterans, which is a taboo in RvR mmos to think about the new guy."

    I have to say, as an old school FPSer you definitely HAVE to gear right. Especially since so many FPS's have added levels and gear set-ups. If you don't gear for the map your in trouble. As for balance, need I reference the COD turbio knifers? I loved that the best build in my FPS was a guy running fast with a knife. That drove me crazy. The playing field was also rarely level. In every match you have 2 or 3 top guys maul everyone and 1 team usually dominated because of them. Add in the meta game of things like perks, and weapon unlocks and you have a another level of balance issues. I remember playing...oh god I'm getting old...don't remember the FPS but they had to patch the game after 3 months because they accidentally made a sniper rifle so OP if you got shot in the toe you died. Not trying to be harsh, but I've played a lot of FPS's and balance was a rarity. I don't know if the MOBas have done a better job or not. I haven't played them, just observed.

    Balance is of course never perfect. But COD for example does have progression but you get matched up(for the most part) with closely ranked players. RvR has no notion of this. And yes at least LoL does a good job of matching you up with closely ranked folks.

    Even if the matchmaking doesn't work perfectly there is an attempt(pretty good one in some games) to do it. Which again, does not exist in RvR. They are both pvp, but two completely different types of pvp.

     

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  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    I keep hearing "A game without PVE will never work! You have to add PVE!"

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/10/research-firm-says-dota-2-tops-league-of-legends/

    Oh my ;)

    thats not an MMO..

     

     

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,467Member Uncommon

    Yes FREE and it is NOT actually becuase these games are good ,it is because they offer the BRAGGING platform so many gamers want.Example ladders and leader boards.UT99 offered imo the best ever pvp combat structure,however as soem players became extremely dominant,most left and moved to other mods or games where they could compete.This is what happens,same as SC or LOL gets their dominating players,the rest soon filter out and look for a new game in hopes of becoming a dominant pvpr in that game.

    All of those Epine games and you can add of course Starcraft to them are incredibly cheap games to design and operate.If you are a fan of small movement,linear paths and VERY small combat areas,then that is where it is at.However technically,visually,and  depth is just tossed out the window.

    You know who actuaklly started all of this design,games like Command n Conquer and Heroes of Might n MAgic,this design has been around for years.Like i said it is ONLY because of the bragging platforms [epine competition] that makes it now a more popular online game.Counterstrike was the same thing, a really cheap mod but it had tons of competition ladders and was even in the world cyber games.

    it is no different than Quake and Doom and Unreal,they offered that same platform for pvp and they all took turns in being the NEW KID,the more  popular.The reason they take turns is pvp is alL about failing.That is the sad reality of pvp,i play pvp all the time and as soon as you dominate players quit or move on to another game ,then that game becomes the new crave.

    These Epine games are NOT played in a MMO format,they are simply what we have already had for years,small maps with 2-12 players.They SHOULD be called multiplayer games NOT MMO's.

    What PVE does is give everyone the opportunity to succeed and maybe more importantly,work together instead of against each other.PVP brings out MUCH more drama,foul language,trash talking,PVE encourages more FRIENDLY type gaming.


    Samoan Diamond

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