I respect you Sapphen but on this you dead wrong. MMOs are so huge and have so many part that making them can have so many random outcomes no one can see till the doors are open and people are playing. So many MMOs over the years have been trying to create something new and thats a large part of why we have so many failed MMOs.
This is basically what you just did.
1. You stated you cant know the outcome of an MMO until its released.
2. You then state MMOs fail for trying something new.
A downright mindboggling argument that if applied to either DaoC, which did some new things, or even TESO, you defeat every single argument you ever gave in defending either...unless of course you use double standards which again points to that whole you no longer have any credibility issue that seems to follow you around.
Though I had no ground to stand on with you any more and you were done replying to me? If your going to reply dont cut out the meat of my reply to water it down so you look like you have a leg to stand out. Highlight what you are responding to instead of changing my post to try and make yourself look better. Also stop looking at this as a war. We are just gamers talking about what we like and dont like about games. You dont have a magic I win button that lets you disregaurd everyone so your right. Or you just trolling?
Its a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.
It is a horrible shame. TES games have been redefining the RPG genre for years, including many MMOs. When TES finally gets a MMO, the developers try to copy another game.
I respect you Sapphen but on this you dead wrong. MMOs are so huge and have so many part that making them can have so many random outcomes no one can see till the doors are open and people are playing. So many MMOs over the years have been trying to create something new and thats a large part of why we have so many failed MMOs. If you are going to make a sandbox PvP game then look at what made SWG so good and take that core model. You want a themepark game then look what whats worked and copy that core model. Add all the modern stuff like Vo acting but make sure the core game is something that worked. Then add your new touch to it.
I respect you too noodle and we don't have to agree. Personally I think the MMOs that have tried something new and failed, did so for other reasons than just trying something new. I feel like the "core models" is what is wrong with the MMO genre. I believe that we should look at what worked but I think many developers are overlooking at why it worked. We can't forget all the MMOs that have used a proven core model and failed.
There is true innovation and it's coming out, almost unseen by the masses. Give it a few more years and you'll understand what I mean when I say there is a difference between being inspired by another game and trying to recreate it.
Maybe... but I see few new MMOs taking core things that worked as a package. Like the DAoC RvR system. (Not the whole game just the RvR core) A few things made it awesome as a whole.
1. Faction lock
2. Non-gear focus (so all PvP is skill based not gear)
3. Getting to know each faction and guild to make the 3 faction war have substance
4. Give players reasons to fight that war, Darkness Falls etc
I have yet to see any MMO take that on as a whole. Same with what made WoW great. Dev keep making frankenstein games, take raids from this game, econ from this game, take WoW quest system, heck lets make PvP just open world and now we have something thats ours woot. IMO Devs need to take systems as a whole. If you going to use the WoW model you need to ask how each part of the game interacted with the other. Could be wrong but I would like to see ESO prove me right =-)
I played Morrowind for 2 years without an "end game".
I played Oblivion from launch until Skyrim was launched.
I've been playign skyrim since it was launched.
All with no "end game".
From my discussions with several TES playesr, both in the long lines i waited in and the TESO after party, many did the same thing.
I was told that some played Daggerfall for an incredible amount of time as a lot of it was "generated" and some thought that the game was "the game that didn't end".
I think that is why some TES fans are "miffed" as the single player games could very well have more longevity than the supposed "long lived mmo".
Thing is, I doubt the metric data supports your argument. Especially when you consider multiplayer vs single player aspects.
I played Morrowind for 2 years without an "end game".
I played Oblivion from launch until Skyrim was launched.
I've been playign skyrim since it was launched.
All with no "end game".
From my discussions with several TES playesr, both in the long lines i waited in and the TESO after party, many did the same thing.
I was told that some played Daggerfall for an incredible amount of time as a lot of it was "generated" and some thought that the game was "the game that didn't end".
I think that is why some TES fans are "miffed" as the single player games could very well have more longevity than the supposed "long lived mmo".
Thing is, I doubt the metric data supports your argument. Especially when you consider multiplayer vs single player aspects.
That's been my sense from speaking to people, forums, my own experience and the few people I know who played. Though truth be told they only played the tes games for about 6 to 8 months.
However, my indicating that tes players play these games for long amounts of time can be backed as much as you saying that the metric data doesn't support it.
It would be interesting to see how many hours skyrim players have put in and I wonder if steam tracks that?
could you explain further what you meant by the highlighted portion above?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Thing is, I doubt the metric data supports your argument. Especially when you consider multiplayer vs single player aspects.
That's been my sense from speaking to people, forums, my own experience and the few people I know who played. Though truth be told they only played the tes games for about 6 to 8 months.
However, my indicating that tes players play these games for long amounts of time can be backed as much as you saying that the metric data doesn't support it.
It would be interesting to see how many hours skyrim players have put in and I wonder if steam tracks that?
I agree. I have no data to back what I have stated its merely a gut call. You can draw similar allegories about things like Rp. Yes, rp is natoriously hard to track in terms of metrics, which is usually the excuse that gets put forth, but in every poll from the designer side, or study, rp is natoriously under represented. The agregated data generally paints a much more accurate picture, and it is not biased by those few who visit boards, or go to conventions, much less stand in lines for hours just to touch a game for 20min. I know steam tracks personal time spent. What I would find more interesting is how many different toons played, what and how many mods, things of that nature. I have near 100 hours at this point just from logging in and testing mods with the creation kit for example.
could you explain further what you meant by the highlighted portion above?
It is generally easier to build in replay value machanically in a single player game. You rarely have a "main" and you almost always are empowered to be self reliant because you and the ai are the only ones playing. Like the person complaining above because you cannot master all crafting skills for example. Making it so you can only master 2 means you have to take part in the economy, making it a real multiplayer game. Merely adding a chat box does not make a game multiplayer.
That's exactly how TES is. If I go around and get 30 of 100 in every skill, I'll be level 10-15 and everything is going to trounce me in combat because I gimped myself. This game provides a way to fix certain spec mistakes. This isn't ambiguous doublespeak, this is you reading a statement and coming to a paranoid conclusion.
I stand corrected on crafting.
It is not. you can be level 40 in TES and pick up a sword for the first time and still do as well as you did at the very start of the game with your first weapon choice.
Enough with the bold face lies to try to protect TESO. No amount of lies is going to convience TES players that know better.
I respect you Sapphen but on this you dead wrong. MMOs are so huge and have so many part that making them can have so many random outcomes no one can see till the doors are open and people are playing. So many MMOs over the years have been trying to create something new and thats a large part of why we have so many failed MMOs.
This is basically what you just did.
1. You stated you cant know the outcome of an MMO until its released.
2. You then state MMOs fail for trying something new.
A downright mindboggling argument that if applied to either DaoC, which did some new things, or even TESO, you defeat every single argument you ever gave in defending either...unless of course you use double standards which again points to that whole you no longer have any credibility issue that seems to follow you around.
Though I had no ground to stand on with you any more and you were done replying to me? If your going to reply dont cut out the meat of my reply to water it down so you look like you have a leg to stand out. Highlight what you are responding to instead of changing my post to try and make yourself look better. Also stop looking at this as a war. We are just gamers talking about what we like and dont like about games. You dont have a magic I win button that lets you disregaurd everyone so your right. Or you just trolling?
The "meat of your reply"? So the "meat" of stating that MMOs fail because they try something new is talking about sandbox, SWG and coping it? Looks like you base your arugments on things unrelated as if they lend credit to each other as can be seen by what I cut out. Normally, when someone argues a point, they argue THAT point, not things unrelated. Oh wait, thats called a red herring, something used by a person that cannot actually back up what they are saying directly.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
I respect you Sapphen but on this you dead wrong. MMOs are so huge and have so many part that making them can have so many random outcomes no one can see till the doors are open and people are playing. So many MMOs over the years have been trying to create something new and thats a large part of why we have so many failed MMOs. If you are going to make a sandbox PvP game then look at what made SWG so good and take that core model. You want a themepark game then look what whats worked and copy that core model. Add all the modern stuff like Vo acting but make sure the core game is something that worked. Then add your new touch to it.
Maybe... but I see few new MMOs taking core things that worked as a package. Like the DAoC RvR system. (Not the whole game just the RvR core) A few things made it awesome as a whole.
1. Faction lock
2. Non-gear focus (so all PvP is skill based not gear)
3. Getting to know each faction and guild to make the 3 faction war have substance
4. Give players reasons to fight that war, Darkness Falls etc
I have yet to see any MMO take that on as a whole. Same with what made WoW great. Dev keep making frankenstein games, take raids from this game, econ from this game, take WoW quest system, heck lets make PvP just open world and now we have something thats ours woot. IMO Devs need to take systems as a whole. If you going to use the WoW model you need to ask how each part of the game interacted with the other. Could be wrong but I would like to see ESO prove me right =-)
That's a good list but I'm totally put off that "faction locks" is even added, much less number 1. I've played DAoC and other games with a RvR system and I do not believe that faction locks had a significant affect on gameplay. I do feel that factions are important (for instance GW2 didn't even have factions) but I think locking races to factions is a trival thing. It worked great in DAoC because each faction was another world/IP and they were brought together but it's not fair to expect it to have the same affect on a TES game when all the races have their own dynamic relationships.
At some point we're gonna have to stop thinking about what to debate and question why are we debating? The OP brings up a good point and I agree with him. I think many games are failing now because they are skipping the fluff and roleplaying elements that were in many of the older games.
Maybe... but I see few new MMOs taking core things that worked as a package. Like the DAoC RvR system. (Not the whole game just the RvR core) A few things made it awesome as a whole.
1. Faction lock
2. Non-gear focus (so all PvP is skill based not gear)
3. Getting to know each faction and guild to make the 3 faction war have substance
4. Give players reasons to fight that war, Darkness Falls etc
I have yet to see any MMO take that on as a whole. Same with what made WoW great. Dev keep making frankenstein games, take raids from this game, econ from this game, take WoW quest system, heck lets make PvP just open world and now we have something thats ours woot. IMO Devs need to take systems as a whole. If you going to use the WoW model you need to ask how each part of the game interacted with the other. Could be wrong but I would like to see ESO prove me right =-)
That's a good list but I'm totally put off that "faction locks" is even added, much less number 1. I've played DAoC and other games with a RvR system and I do not believe that faction locks had a significant affect on gameplay. I do feel that factions are important (for instance GW2 didn't even have factions) but I think locking races to factions is a trival thing. It worked great in DAoC because each faction was another world/IP and they were brought together but it's not fair to expect it to have the same affect on a TES game when all the races have their own dynamic relationships.
At some point we're gonna have to stop thinking about what to debate and question why are we debating? The OP brings up a good point and I agree with him. I think many games are failing now because they are skipping the fluff and roleplaying elements that were in many of the older games.
I think its two part, the fluff we love like sitting on chair and being able to trade with our friends. But I also think its developers not taking time to think how systems interact with eachother as a whole. Like a PvP game with PvP gear vs a PvP game where its just gear. So PvE players are equal to a fight with their gear. Again player econ vs gear grind. Each system changes the type of player the game brings and if the other systems dont lend to that player you have a fail. I really think Devs need to start thinking of each system and how it impacts the next and the player type they are trying to appeal to.
No. Outside of the graphics, names of places and NPCs this game will have very little that was TES.The one un-arguable aspect of this game is simple.If you removed the graphics and names of places and people, would this game make you say "hey, this is a TES clone!" or would it make you say "Is this DaoC 2?". It is the later.Its a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.
are you talking about the pvp aspect only? because the pve of this game and combat is nothing like Daoc so i am not sure what you are trying to imply.if you honestly believe that this entire game is more like Daoc than TES, i think you have been vastly misinformed or you never played Daoc lolyes this game will have factions like daoc, yes it will have RvR style pvp like daoc.beyond that, can you tell me what it will have in common with Daoc? because it sure as hell isn't the combat or anything else regarding pve that i can tell.
I have noticed a sad trend on this site, whenever someone is talking out their backside they always follow it with "lol".
So you think TESO combat is like TES? Really? I dont recall having to equip a healing staff to auqment healing, or a fire staff or a lightning staff...
Thats right, you can raise all of them like in TES...but you are limited to 5 skills/spells and your spell types are limited to what you have equiped. So, they are still forcing a trinity situation while at the same time allowing you to pick which you want at a given time. That is not TES. Its a false attempt at being a little different than other MMOs. There was zero point in creating an open system and then tacking on that kind of limitation. Not only that, but they announced anything about there being NO LIMIT to the amount of points you can earn in skills, Like, do you stop earing experience in your skills when you hit 50? Is there a skill cap to how many points you can raise your skills per level? Un-answered questions.
Also, PvE CANNOT be like it is in TES because every mob will have SET levels. In TES, mobs level WITH YOU so all content remains 100% viable which is not the case in TESO where zones will have levels and once you outlevel them you are funneled ever closer to the moronic PvP setup set in a central area.
One has to squint to find the TES in TESO beyond the graphics and names.
still waiting for you to explain to me how this game resembles daoc outside of the pvp and faction lock.
i think i mentioned it resembles GW2 meets skyrim combat more than anything, which it does.
the core of the combat is almost exactly like TES with the GW2 syle action bars thrown in, that is exactly what it is.
its nothing like Daoc, yet you claimed that if you removed the graphics and name people would think it is Daoc 2?
sorry but that is about as misinformed of a statement you can possibly make about this game.
the only way you would even begin to think it was possibly Daoc 2 is judging solely by the faction lock and the pvp in cyrodiil, that is it.
IMO the mmo genre needs to progress. They keep trying to copy other MMOs and streamline the features, which usually means the little things get passed over. In my opinion, ESO is more of the same. We'll be lucky if we're able to sit down or /wave at other players. These features are not taken seriously by developers and I think many players overlook the importance of the little things.
I would love to see a MMO put the RPG back in MMORPG.
Cause none of those things matter. Gameplay and Endgame content is what needs to get done right.
Until an MMO is developed and released that offers proverbial unlimited endgame content like the games of old then you can work on the little things but to work on those and have crap for everythign else is the epitome of wasted developmental processes.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
No. Outside of the graphics, names of places and NPCs this game will have very little that was TES.The one un-arguable aspect of this game is simple.If you removed the graphics and names of places and people, would this game make you say "hey, this is a TES clone!" or would it make you say "Is this DaoC 2?". It is the later.Its a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.
are you talking about the pvp aspect only? because the pve of this game and combat is nothing like Daoc so i am not sure what you are trying to imply.if you honestly believe that this entire game is more like Daoc than TES, i think you have been vastly misinformed or you never played Daoc lolyes this game will have factions like daoc, yes it will have RvR style pvp like daoc.beyond that, can you tell me what it will have in common with Daoc? because it sure as hell isn't the combat or anything else regarding pve that i can tell.
I have noticed a sad trend on this site, whenever someone is talking out their backside they always follow it with "lol".
So you think TESO combat is like TES? Really? I dont recall having to equip a healing staff to auqment healing, or a fire staff or a lightning staff...
Thats right, you can raise all of them like in TES...but you are limited to 5 skills/spells and your spell types are limited to what you have equiped. So, they are still forcing a trinity situation while at the same time allowing you to pick which you want at a given time. That is not TES. Its a false attempt at being a little different than other MMOs. There was zero point in creating an open system and then tacking on that kind of limitation. Not only that, but they announced anything about there being NO LIMIT to the amount of points you can earn in skills, Like, do you stop earing experience in your skills when you hit 50? Is there a skill cap to how many points you can raise your skills per level? Un-answered questions.
Also, PvE CANNOT be like it is in TES because every mob will have SET levels. In TES, mobs level WITH YOU so all content remains 100% viable which is not the case in TESO where zones will have levels and once you outlevel them you are funneled ever closer to the moronic PvP setup set in a central area.
One has to squint to find the TES in TESO beyond the graphics and names.
still waiting for you to explain to me how this game resembles daoc outside of the pvp and faction lock.
i think i mentioned it resembles GW2 meets skyrim combat more than anything, which it does.
the core of the combat is almost exactly like TES with the GW2 syle action bars thrown in, that is exactly what it is.
its nothing like Daoc, yet you claimed that if you removed the graphics and name people would think it is Daoc 2?
sorry but that is about as misinformed of a statement you can possibly make about this game.
the only way you would even begin to think it was possibly Daoc 2 is judging solely by the faction lock and the pvp in cyrodiil, that is it.
@ PAX there was many a review that stated it felt very much like a TES game. From questing to combat.
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by baphametOriginally posted by sapphenOriginally posted by JasonJIts a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.
It is a horrible shame. TES games have been redefining the RPG genre for years, including many MMOs. When TES finally gets a MMO, the developers try to copy another game.yes, let them make a mmo exactly like the single player games with no end game features at all, is that what you want?I played Morrowind for 2 years without an "end game".
I played Oblivion from launch until Skyrim was launched.
I've been playign skyrim since it was launched.
All with no "end game".
From my discussions with several TES playesr, both in the long lines i waited in and the TESO after party, many did the same thing.
I was told that some played Daggerfall for an incredible amount of time as a lot of it was "generated" and some thought that the game was "the game that didn't end".
I think that is why some TES fans are "miffed" as the single player games could very well have more longevity than the supposed "long lived mmo".
how many hours do you have logged into skyrim, if i may ask?
@ PAX there was many a review that stated it felt very much like a TES game. From questing to combat.
Not that I'm the end all and be all (because I'm not) of opinions but my sense is that "sometimes" it felt TES'ish and sometimes not.
One of the guys I went in with (who I met in line) came out and said it felt like a generic mmo.
It wasn't until my second day of play where I felt more of the "Elder Scrolls" feeling.
I think that could be fixed. I think its a mistake to have weapon swapping not make it in till level 15 but I guess thats a MMO thing. You need a different progression in some developers minds.
No. Outside of the graphics, names of places and NPCs this game will have very little that was TES.The one un-arguable aspect of this game is simple.If you removed the graphics and names of places and people, would this game make you say "hey, this is a TES clone!" or would it make you say "Is this DaoC 2?". It is the later.Its a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.
are you talking about the pvp aspect only? because the pve of this game and combat is nothing like Daoc so i am not sure what you are trying to imply.if you honestly believe that this entire game is more like Daoc than TES, i think you have been vastly misinformed or you never played Daoc lolyes this game will have factions like daoc, yes it will have RvR style pvp like daoc.beyond that, can you tell me what it will have in common with Daoc? because it sure as hell isn't the combat or anything else regarding pve that i can tell.
I have noticed a sad trend on this site, whenever someone is talking out their backside they always follow it with "lol".
So you think TESO combat is like TES? Really? I dont recall having to equip a healing staff to auqment healing, or a fire staff or a lightning staff...
Thats right, you can raise all of them like in TES...but you are limited to 5 skills/spells and your spell types are limited to what you have equiped. So, they are still forcing a trinity situation while at the same time allowing you to pick which you want at a given time. That is not TES. Its a false attempt at being a little different than other MMOs. There was zero point in creating an open system and then tacking on that kind of limitation. Not only that, but they announced anything about there being NO LIMIT to the amount of points you can earn in skills, Like, do you stop earing experience in your skills when you hit 50? Is there a skill cap to how many points you can raise your skills per level? Un-answered questions.
Also, PvE CANNOT be like it is in TES because every mob will have SET levels. In TES, mobs level WITH YOU so all content remains 100% viable which is not the case in TESO where zones will have levels and once you outlevel them you are funneled ever closer to the moronic PvP setup set in a central area.
One has to squint to find the TES in TESO beyond the graphics and names.
still waiting for you to explain to me how this game resembles daoc outside of the pvp and faction lock.
i think i mentioned it resembles GW2 meets skyrim combat more than anything, which it does.
the core of the combat is almost exactly like TES with the GW2 syle action bars thrown in, that is exactly what it is.
its nothing like Daoc, yet you claimed that if you removed the graphics and name people would think it is Daoc 2?
sorry but that is about as misinformed of a statement you can possibly make about this game.
the only way you would even begin to think it was possibly Daoc 2 is judging solely by the faction lock and the pvp in cyrodiil, that is it.
@ PAX there was many a review that stated it felt very much like a TES game. From questing to combat.
Hahaha! @ PAX you were allowed 20min in a small pre-defined box of gameplay. Its not hard to make that limited amount of exposure "feel" like you want it to.
Question is, how will that "TES feel" continue once players are out in the actual gameworld for much longer play sessions?
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs Originally posted by NanfoodleOriginally posted by baphametOriginally posted by JasonJOriginally posted by baphametNo. Outside of the graphics, names of places and NPCs this game will have very little that was TES.The one un-arguable aspect of this game is simple.If you removed the graphics and names of places and people, would this game make you say "hey, this is a TES clone!" or would it make you say "Is this DaoC 2?". It is the later.Its a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.
are you talking about the pvp aspect only? because the pve of this game and combat is nothing like Daoc so i am not sure what you are trying to imply.if you honestly believe that this entire game is more like Daoc than TES, i think you have been vastly misinformed or you never played Daoc lolyes this game will have factions like daoc, yes it will have RvR style pvp like daoc.beyond that, can you tell me what it will have in common with Daoc? because it sure as hell isn't the combat or anything else regarding pve that i can tell.I have noticed a sad trend on this site, whenever someone is talking out their backside they always follow it with "lol".So you think TESO combat is like TES? Really? I dont recall having to equip a healing staff to auqment healing, or a fire staff or a lightning staff...Thats right, you can raise all of them like in TES...but you are limited to 5 skills/spells and your spell types are limited to what you have equiped. So, they are still forcing a trinity situation while at the same time allowing you to pick which you want at a given time. That is not TES. Its a false attempt at being a little different than other MMOs. There was zero point in creating an open system and then tacking on that kind of limitation. Not only that, but they announced anything about there being NO LIMIT to the amount of points you can earn in skills, Like, do you stop earing experience in your skills when you hit 50? Is there a skill cap to how many points you can raise your skills per level? Un-answered questions.Also, PvE CANNOT be like it is in TES because every mob will have SET levels. In TES, mobs level WITH YOU so all content remains 100% viable which is not the case in TESO where zones will have levels and once you outlevel them you are funneled ever closer to the moronic PvP setup set in a central area.One has to squint to find the TES in TESO beyond the graphics and names.still waiting for you to explain to me how this game resembles daoc outside of the pvp and faction lock.i think i mentioned it resembles GW2 meets skyrim combat more than anything, which it does.the core of the combat is almost exactly like TES with the GW2 syle action bars thrown in, that is exactly what it is.its nothing like Daoc, yet you claimed that if you removed the graphics and name people would think it is Daoc 2?sorry but that is about as misinformed of a statement you can possibly make about this game.the only way you would even begin to think it was possibly Daoc 2 is judging solely by the faction lock and the pvp in cyrodiil, that is it. @ PAX there was many a review that stated it felt very much like a TES game. From questing to combat.Hahaha! @ PAX you were allowed 20min in a small pre-defined box of gameplay. Its not hard to make that limited amount of exposure "feel" like you want it to.
Question is, how will that "TES feel" continue once players are out in the actual gameworld for much longer play sessions?
i think that would mainly depend on the person and their expectations.
if you are one of those that expects the mmo to be exactly like the single player game and any element that resembles an mmo makes it not feel like TES, then i am sure you will be let down either way.
No. Outside of the graphics, names of places and NPCs this game will have very little that was TES.The one un-arguable aspect of this game is simple.If you removed the graphics and names of places and people, would this game make you say "hey, this is a TES clone!" or would it make you say "Is this DaoC 2?". It is the later.Its a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.
are you talking about the pvp aspect only? because the pve of this game and combat is nothing like Daoc so i am not sure what you are trying to imply.if you honestly believe that this entire game is more like Daoc than TES, i think you have been vastly misinformed or you never played Daoc lolyes this game will have factions like daoc, yes it will have RvR style pvp like daoc.beyond that, can you tell me what it will have in common with Daoc? because it sure as hell isn't the combat or anything else regarding pve that i can tell.
I have noticed a sad trend on this site, whenever someone is talking out their backside they always follow it with "lol".
So you think TESO combat is like TES? Really? I dont recall having to equip a healing staff to auqment healing, or a fire staff or a lightning staff...
Thats right, you can raise all of them like in TES...but you are limited to 5 skills/spells and your spell types are limited to what you have equiped. So, they are still forcing a trinity situation while at the same time allowing you to pick which you want at a given time. That is not TES. Its a false attempt at being a little different than other MMOs. There was zero point in creating an open system and then tacking on that kind of limitation. Not only that, but they announced anything about there being NO LIMIT to the amount of points you can earn in skills, Like, do you stop earing experience in your skills when you hit 50? Is there a skill cap to how many points you can raise your skills per level? Un-answered questions.
Also, PvE CANNOT be like it is in TES because every mob will have SET levels. In TES, mobs level WITH YOU so all content remains 100% viable which is not the case in TESO where zones will have levels and once you outlevel them you are funneled ever closer to the moronic PvP setup set in a central area.
One has to squint to find the TES in TESO beyond the graphics and names.
still waiting for you to explain to me how this game resembles daoc outside of the pvp and faction lock.
i think i mentioned it resembles GW2 meets skyrim combat more than anything, which it does.
the core of the combat is almost exactly like TES with the GW2 syle action bars thrown in, that is exactly what it is.
its nothing like Daoc, yet you claimed that if you removed the graphics and name people would think it is Daoc 2?
sorry but that is about as misinformed of a statement you can possibly make about this game.
the only way you would even begin to think it was possibly Daoc 2 is judging solely by the faction lock and the pvp in cyrodiil, that is it.
@ PAX there was many a review that stated it felt very much like a TES game. From questing to combat.
Hahaha! @ PAX you were allowed 20min in a small pre-defined box of gameplay. Its not hard to make that limited amount of exposure "feel" like you want it to.
Question is, how will that "TES feel" continue once players are out in the actual gameworld for much longer play sessions?
No clue I have not played for hours and hours and being they were press I dont remember if they played for 20 min or 3hrs. You act like I was talking about end game or something. Everyone knows game conventions are short play sesions. So in that short play sesions lots of reviews that said it felt like TES. Does it get better or worse? I would like to know as well =-)
That's exactly how TES is. If I go around and get 30 of 100 in every skill, I'll be level 10-15 and everything is going to trounce me in combat because I gimped myself. This game provides a way to fix certain spec mistakes. This isn't ambiguous doublespeak, this is you reading a statement and coming to a paranoid conclusion.
I stand corrected on crafting.
It is not. you can be level 40 in TES and pick up a sword for the first time and still do as well as you did at the very start of the game with your first weapon choice.
Enough with the bold face lies to try to protect TESO. No amount of lies is going to convience TES players that know better.
It's very rare that I get to use this: lolwut?
No, you can't. If you're level 40 and you've never trained in 1h, you're not going to be able to kill a Daedra with a 1h sword. You won't be doing 'as well' as the primary form of combat that you've trained for 40 levels.
You make me wonder whether or not you've ever played the games you're discussing here.
The little things, to me, are just...umm... little.
I make choices about which MMO to play based on the big things. The little things do add atmosphere but for me that's just gravy.
I will eat my roast beef with or without gravy.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by JasonJIts a shame too, because so many other TES aspects have been in MMOs before so we know it can be done.
It is a horrible shame. TES games have been redefining the RPG genre for years, including many MMOs. When TES finally gets a MMO, the developers try to copy another game.
yes, let them make a mmo exactly like the single player games with no end game features at all, is that what you want?
I played Morrowind for 2 years without an "end game".
I played Oblivion from launch until Skyrim was launched.
I've been playign skyrim since it was launched.
All with no "end game".
From my discussions with several TES playesr, both in the long lines i waited in and the TESO after party, many did the same thing.
I was told that some played Daggerfall for an incredible amount of time as a lot of it was "generated" and some thought that the game was "the game that didn't end".
I think that is why some TES fans are "miffed" as the single player games could very well have more longevity than the supposed "long lived mmo".
For many most of the longevity in TES comes from modability, there are only so many things to discover with vanilla TES games especially since Oblivion. Now I'm not saying that TES will have longevity as it may very well not. However it's longevity will come from something different if it is there.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Though I had no ground to stand on with you any more and you were done replying to me? If your going to reply dont cut out the meat of my reply to water it down so you look like you have a leg to stand out. Highlight what you are responding to instead of changing my post to try and make yourself look better. Also stop looking at this as a war. We are just gamers talking about what we like and dont like about games. You dont have a magic I win button that lets you disregaurd everyone so your right. Or you just trolling?
Maybe... but I see few new MMOs taking core things that worked as a package. Like the DAoC RvR system. (Not the whole game just the RvR core) A few things made it awesome as a whole.
1. Faction lock
2. Non-gear focus (so all PvP is skill based not gear)
3. Getting to know each faction and guild to make the 3 faction war have substance
4. Give players reasons to fight that war, Darkness Falls etc
I have yet to see any MMO take that on as a whole. Same with what made WoW great. Dev keep making frankenstein games, take raids from this game, econ from this game, take WoW quest system, heck lets make PvP just open world and now we have something thats ours woot. IMO Devs need to take systems as a whole. If you going to use the WoW model you need to ask how each part of the game interacted with the other. Could be wrong but I would like to see ESO prove me right =-)
Thing is, I doubt the metric data supports your argument. Especially when you consider multiplayer vs single player aspects.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
That's been my sense from speaking to people, forums, my own experience and the few people I know who played. Though truth be told they only played the tes games for about 6 to 8 months.
However, my indicating that tes players play these games for long amounts of time can be backed as much as you saying that the metric data doesn't support it.
It would be interesting to see how many hours skyrim players have put in and I wonder if steam tracks that?
could you explain further what you meant by the highlighted portion above?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I agree. I have no data to back what I have stated its merely a gut call. You can draw similar allegories about things like Rp. Yes, rp is natoriously hard to track in terms of metrics, which is usually the excuse that gets put forth, but in every poll from the designer side, or study, rp is natoriously under represented. The agregated data generally paints a much more accurate picture, and it is not biased by those few who visit boards, or go to conventions, much less stand in lines for hours just to touch a game for 20min. I know steam tracks personal time spent. What I would find more interesting is how many different toons played, what and how many mods, things of that nature. I have near 100 hours at this point just from logging in and testing mods with the creation kit for example.
It is generally easier to build in replay value machanically in a single player game. You rarely have a "main" and you almost always are empowered to be self reliant because you and the ai are the only ones playing. Like the person complaining above because you cannot master all crafting skills for example. Making it so you can only master 2 means you have to take part in the economy, making it a real multiplayer game. Merely adding a chat box does not make a game multiplayer.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
It is not. you can be level 40 in TES and pick up a sword for the first time and still do as well as you did at the very start of the game with your first weapon choice.
Enough with the bold face lies to try to protect TESO. No amount of lies is going to convience TES players that know better.
The "meat of your reply"? So the "meat" of stating that MMOs fail because they try something new is talking about sandbox, SWG and coping it? Looks like you base your arugments on things unrelated as if they lend credit to each other as can be seen by what I cut out. Normally, when someone argues a point, they argue THAT point, not things unrelated. Oh wait, thats called a red herring, something used by a person that cannot actually back up what they are saying directly.
That's a good list but I'm totally put off that "faction locks" is even added, much less number 1. I've played DAoC and other games with a RvR system and I do not believe that faction locks had a significant affect on gameplay. I do feel that factions are important (for instance GW2 didn't even have factions) but I think locking races to factions is a trival thing. It worked great in DAoC because each faction was another world/IP and they were brought together but it's not fair to expect it to have the same affect on a TES game when all the races have their own dynamic relationships.
At some point we're gonna have to stop thinking about what to debate and question why are we debating? The OP brings up a good point and I agree with him. I think many games are failing now because they are skipping the fluff and roleplaying elements that were in many of the older games.
I think its two part, the fluff we love like sitting on chair and being able to trade with our friends. But I also think its developers not taking time to think how systems interact with eachother as a whole. Like a PvP game with PvP gear vs a PvP game where its just gear. So PvE players are equal to a fight with their gear. Again player econ vs gear grind. Each system changes the type of player the game brings and if the other systems dont lend to that player you have a fail. I really think Devs need to start thinking of each system and how it impacts the next and the player type they are trying to appeal to.
As you once dismissed me so I say to you, I am done talking to you. Have a good day sir =-)
Once must first talk to a person to be able to stop, all you have done is talk around everyone and their points.
still waiting for you to explain to me how this game resembles daoc outside of the pvp and faction lock.
i think i mentioned it resembles GW2 meets skyrim combat more than anything, which it does.
the core of the combat is almost exactly like TES with the GW2 syle action bars thrown in, that is exactly what it is.
its nothing like Daoc, yet you claimed that if you removed the graphics and name people would think it is Daoc 2?
sorry but that is about as misinformed of a statement you can possibly make about this game.
the only way you would even begin to think it was possibly Daoc 2 is judging solely by the faction lock and the pvp in cyrodiil, that is it.
Cause none of those things matter. Gameplay and Endgame content is what needs to get done right.
Until an MMO is developed and released that offers proverbial unlimited endgame content like the games of old then you can work on the little things but to work on those and have crap for everythign else is the epitome of wasted developmental processes.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
@ PAX there was many a review that stated it felt very much like a TES game. From questing to combat.
Not that I'm the end all and be all (because I'm not) of opinions but my sense is that "sometimes" it felt TES'ish and sometimes not.
One of the guys I went in with (who I met in line) came out and said it felt like a generic mmo.
It wasn't until my second day of play where I felt more of the "Elder Scrolls" feeling.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
yes, let them make a mmo exactly like the single player games with no end game features at all, is that what you want?
I played Morrowind for 2 years without an "end game".
I played Oblivion from launch until Skyrim was launched.
I've been playign skyrim since it was launched.
All with no "end game".
From my discussions with several TES playesr, both in the long lines i waited in and the TESO after party, many did the same thing.
I was told that some played Daggerfall for an incredible amount of time as a lot of it was "generated" and some thought that the game was "the game that didn't end".
I think that is why some TES fans are "miffed" as the single player games could very well have more longevity than the supposed "long lived mmo".
how many hours do you have logged into skyrim, if i may ask?
I think that could be fixed. I think its a mistake to have weapon swapping not make it in till level 15 but I guess thats a MMO thing. You need a different progression in some developers minds.
Hahaha! @ PAX you were allowed 20min in a small pre-defined box of gameplay. Its not hard to make that limited amount of exposure "feel" like you want it to.
Question is, how will that "TES feel" continue once players are out in the actual gameworld for much longer play sessions?
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
I have noticed a sad trend on this site, whenever someone is talking out their backside they always follow it with "lol". So you think TESO combat is like TES? Really? I dont recall having to equip a healing staff to auqment healing, or a fire staff or a lightning staff... Thats right, you can raise all of them like in TES...but you are limited to 5 skills/spells and your spell types are limited to what you have equiped. So, they are still forcing a trinity situation while at the same time allowing you to pick which you want at a given time. That is not TES. Its a false attempt at being a little different than other MMOs. There was zero point in creating an open system and then tacking on that kind of limitation. Not only that, but they announced anything about there being NO LIMIT to the amount of points you can earn in skills, Like, do you stop earing experience in your skills when you hit 50? Is there a skill cap to how many points you can raise your skills per level? Un-answered questions. Also, PvE CANNOT be like it is in TES because every mob will have SET levels. In TES, mobs level WITH YOU so all content remains 100% viable which is not the case in TESO where zones will have levels and once you outlevel them you are funneled ever closer to the moronic PvP setup set in a central area. One has to squint to find the TES in TESO beyond the graphics and names.
still waiting for you to explain to me how this game resembles daoc outside of the pvp and faction lock. i think i mentioned it resembles GW2 meets skyrim combat more than anything, which it does. the core of the combat is almost exactly like TES with the GW2 syle action bars thrown in, that is exactly what it is. its nothing like Daoc, yet you claimed that if you removed the graphics and name people would think it is Daoc 2? sorry but that is about as misinformed of a statement you can possibly make about this game. the only way you would even begin to think it was possibly Daoc 2 is judging solely by the faction lock and the pvp in cyrodiil, that is it.
@ PAX there was many a review that stated it felt very much like a TES game. From questing to combat.
Hahaha! @ PAX you were allowed 20min in a small pre-defined box of gameplay. Its not hard to make that limited amount of exposure "feel" like you want it to.
Question is, how will that "TES feel" continue once players are out in the actual gameworld for much longer play sessions?
i think that would mainly depend on the person and their expectations.
if you are one of those that expects the mmo to be exactly like the single player game and any element that resembles an mmo makes it not feel like TES, then i am sure you will be let down either way.
No clue I have not played for hours and hours and being they were press I dont remember if they played for 20 min or 3hrs. You act like I was talking about end game or something. Everyone knows game conventions are short play sesions. So in that short play sesions lots of reviews that said it felt like TES. Does it get better or worse? I would like to know as well =-)
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's very rare that I get to use this: lolwut?
No, you can't. If you're level 40 and you've never trained in 1h, you're not going to be able to kill a Daedra with a 1h sword. You won't be doing 'as well' as the primary form of combat that you've trained for 40 levels.
You make me wonder whether or not you've ever played the games you're discussing here.
Lame.
10-1 you wont be able to get drunk in ESO and Skooma will be something akin to RedBull
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
The little things, to me, are just...umm... little.
I make choices about which MMO to play based on the big things. The little things do add atmosphere but for me that's just gravy.
I will eat my roast beef with or without gravy.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
For many most of the longevity in TES comes from modability, there are only so many things to discover with vanilla TES games especially since Oblivion. Now I'm not saying that TES will have longevity as it may very well not. However it's longevity will come from something different if it is there.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson