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Why is 'instanced' a modern development?

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  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,088Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dahkoht
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    actually no - gw2 (and aoc) "instancing" is a protection against "empty zones" which do happen a lot in most of other mmorpgs when most of the players are already max level - have to say i was not bothered by it in gw2 at all (well mostly at all, i could have live w/o a time it took to transit from overflow to normal zone)

    Make leveling meaningfull and actually lasting quite abit of time instead of the 1month level cap rush and all your zones will automaticly be filled by people leveling at slower paces and alts. No need for instanceing

    Instancing is modern thing because imagine this. Dungeons are not instanced. Bosses/mobs in a dungeon are available for first come first serve basis. Farming guilds will dominate these dungeons 24/7.

     

    Who wants to play a game like that?

     

    Me.

    PVE competition in a dungeon made EQ even more interesting.

     

    This for me aswell, i love non instance world such as EQ, Competetive PvE is some of the best PvE imo better than the stale kind imo :)

  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,088Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Dahkoht
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    actually no - gw2 (and aoc) "instancing" is a protection against "empty zones" which do happen a lot in most of other mmorpgs when most of the players are already max level - have to say i was not bothered by it in gw2 at all (well mostly at all, i could have live w/o a time it took to transit from overflow to normal zone)

    Make leveling meaningfull and actually lasting quite abit of time instead of the 1month level cap rush and all your zones will automaticly be filled by people leveling at slower paces and alts. No need for instanceing

    Instancing is modern thing because imagine this. Dungeons are not instanced. Bosses/mobs in a dungeon are available for first come first serve basis. Farming guilds will dominate these dungeons 24/7.

     

    Who wants to play a game like that?

     

    Me.

    PVE competition in a dungeon made EQ even more interesting.

     

    what you dont understand is the players of today are vastly different from th eplayers back in EQ. There weren't nearly as many griefers today as there were back then. That kind of system would be abused and ultimately only used by very few because they wouldn't be able to combat the farming guilds.

     

    to that you may say bring your own, and then you're turning what should be a pve experience into a pvp experience, but the point would be moot because those farming guilds would be ready, prepared to fend off whatever force you could bring. You may even wipe them a time or two, but be assured you would not get any boss kills cause they would wipe you right back.

    Todays player changed becayse todays games have changed, now if u had a game like EQ im willing to be the playher will also change again.

    The main thing in how games have changed over the years are they are a great deal more solo based, This majorly effects player behavour. A game when u dont need anyone else there is no need to be nice or do anything other than greif people because there no reprocussions, where games have that need for social interaction where player acualyneed each other there a great deal less of griefing going on because if you spent ur time griefing u quickly ended up being that person no one ever wants to group with which hinder you greatly.

    Over the years as u watch the MMO genre progress into what it is now this is what ive noticed

    Year 2000 - Hardly any griefing with a great  tightnit communities where people acualy went out of their weay to help others.

    Year 2004 - Greifing has be come somewhat more common and however there was still a decent community in games

    Year 2008 - Greifing other have become quite a regular occurance now in games and community bonds have greatly suffered

    Year 2012 - With Xrealm instance dunguen there is no need to even bother having a community, griefing and harassment is rediculously high to the poiont where over half the population is trying to hurt somone in someway and no one ever helps each other because there no need to form bonds with outher people when u can just hit a LFG button and u end up in a group with people u will never meat again from another server.

  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,088Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheJoda
    It ruin the MM in MMO if u ask me.  There was nothing like zoning into a dungen in EQ to hear "TRAIN TO ZONE IN"..............or having to fight your way to camps to then out pull other groups.

    +1, those mob train do alot to a game, it add unpredictability to the game what make things a great deal more on the intresting side if u ask me, instance dunguens u basicly know what going to happen and they feel very stale.

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    LOL, instancing reminds me of D2, and while its hardly on the same scale, it can feel retro. What I don't understand is how "entirely persistent" zones are so immersive. Your in a world overflowing with hero's, pretending to participate in mostly exclusive events which everyone is doing, and even the best environtments lack the depth and openness of a realistically populated world. I mean, how many homes are there really in that capitol? 100?, 5000 people are living in a city with hardly a fraction of the development necessary to sustain them...

    Anyway, time to go home, layers.

    ehhh the way a capital works is. People travel there. Take Atlanta for instance. Most people who are in Atlanta, don't live in Atlanta. They commute to Atlanta for work, or entertainment.

    Yeah, except that there would be a great deal of settlements all around that modern city to accomidate them, not a complete lack of, beyond the fact that the majority of fantasy based medievil environs tried to house whatever they could within the physical protection of the city, not like Atlanta >.>

    you gotta think, just cause there's millions of players doesn't necessarily mean there's millions of "people" living in game. all the players are basically multiple instances of the same person. by that i mean every paladin is really just multiple instances 1 paladin, same for all the other classes.

     

    where you start in WoW for instance is probably where you live. also as far as the whole in medieval times they kept their housing environments inside the city, that's not necessarily true in a game where you can teleport/just fly gryphons for pennies on the dollar large distances lol.

     

    but that kinda takes the debate in a weird direction.

    So basically, youve made no point, it's just as unrealistic in a different way, which is what I originally said.

    I get where players enjoyed some of the trials and interactions generated by classic persistance in MMOs, I don't accept the assertion that instancing lacks suspension of disbelief. If you like it, be it so because of specifically what you enjoy about it, no a misguided assertion.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
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  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    LOL, instancing reminds me of D2, and while its hardly on the same scale, it can feel retro. What I don't understand is how "entirely persistent" zones are so immersive. Your in a world overflowing with hero's, pretending to participate in mostly exclusive events which everyone is doing, and even the best environtments lack the depth and openness of a realistically populated world. I mean, how many homes are there really in that capitol? 100?, 5000 people are living in a city with hardly a fraction of the development necessary to sustain them...

    Anyway, time to go home, layers.

    ehhh the way a capital works is. People travel there. Take Atlanta for instance. Most people who are in Atlanta, don't live in Atlanta. They commute to Atlanta for work, or entertainment.

    Yeah, except that there would be a great deal of settlements all around that modern city to accomidate them, not a complete lack of, beyond the fact that the majority of fantasy based medievil environs tried to house whatever they could within the physical protection of the city, not like Atlanta >.>

    you gotta think, just cause there's millions of players doesn't necessarily mean there's millions of "people" living in game. all the players are basically multiple instances of the same person. by that i mean every paladin is really just multiple instances 1 paladin, same for all the other classes.

     

    where you start in WoW for instance is probably where you live. also as far as the whole in medieval times they kept their housing environments inside the city, that's not necessarily true in a game where you can teleport/just fly gryphons for pennies on the dollar large distances lol.

     

    but that kinda takes the debate in a weird direction.

    So basically, youve made no point, it's just as unrealistic in a different way, which is what I originally said.

    I get where players enjoyed some of the trials and interactions generated by classic persistance in MMOs, I don't accept the assertion that instancing lacks suspension of disbelief. If you like it, be it so because of specifically what you enjoy about it, no a misguided assertion.

    you lost me...i thought we were talking about why there aren't a thousand homes in the capitol cities to accomodate the thousands of players in mmos.

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  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,088Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by Dahkoht

    Hate it myself also.

    Much preferred EQ in it's launch and early expansion state where everything , including major dungeons , were open world.

    Zero instancing.

     

    Like Vanguard which has no instances and is totally open.

    EQ1 even at launch was not completely open at all.. not sure what you guys are thinking but EQ1 had loading portals between every zone.. it sucked too because at the time computers were slow as dirt and loading took forever.. also the mob trains!!

     

    think so many are confusing zones and instances though...

    Vanguard has a seamless open world EQ1 did/does not

     

    me personally i like seamless worlds but enjoy instanced dungeons more

    Instanced, Open world and Seamless are all completly different atleast by my point of view.

    Instanced are what you typicaly have now, there are instances where muiltipal parties/player can be in the world and not be there at the same time.

    Open world have no instances they can have loading screens but no matter where u are in the world everyone else in the game can be standing right next to you, the only aception to his rule is realy player housing.

    Seamless if a world that has absolutly no loading screens whats so ever that also includes instances, so basicly where ever you go you will never ever hit a loading screen xcept the exception of instant travel such as teleport spells (again with the exception if player housing)

     

    So yes EQ is an open world atleast till lost dunguen of norrath xpack, im not sure about vanguard but it seems like it does qualify with seamless from what i heard but i cant confirm this since i havant realy played it to any real degree.

     

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member

    Everything in MMOs is an instance, even the "open playfield".

    - Instances come in various sizes, big and small with different permissions who can enter at which time

    - Needed to split up players in sizeable numbers, e.g. if you have one server and a million players need to enter the same room it would look a bit awkward, too many polygons to display on the client or the server would crash

    - even EvE is instanced, every place you warp to is an instance, the only thing is they don´t limit the number how many people can go there as far as I know.

    - some games hide the instancing well (EVE), some games really don´t care about breaking immersion with their heavy instancing (e.g. SWTOR´s green story doors)

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  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member
    That's because your too quick to make some cop out response without thinking about what's really relevant to the subject Sephiroso.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    actually no - gw2 (and aoc) "instancing" is a protection against "empty zones" which do happen a lot in most of other mmorpgs when most of the players are already max level - have to say i was not bothered by it in gw2 at all (well mostly at all, i could have live w/o a time it took to transit from overflow to normal zone)

    And then you have to ask yourself why will zones eventually end up empty?

    Most often because most is so linear there is no reason to go back to older area's.

    Let there be dungeons you can enter at lower levels but are unable to really survive them or you could explore a part of it and the higher lvl you get the better chance of surving where the cap lvl player will be able to fully reach the end of that dungeon. Make it so that even cap crafting players need low lvl resources, of course low level resources can often be bought, but also very often it might be allot of people in need for it so going back to older lower lvl places to get those resources yourself or with friends.

    Though I do understand why instances are used I still don't really like it in my MMORPG.

  • Sk1ppeRSk1ppeR PlovdivPosts: 511Member

    I suppose none of you played Lineage 2 before Hellbound expansion xD 

    No wonder WoW was such a success

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member

    I do not like instancing of any kind. I miss open worlds, open dungeons, and open PvP dungeons. MMORPGs should not have instances and are not designed for casual gamers. Never was intended to be for casuals but we got what we got today and not a game in years has actually been a MMORPG and the ones that do come out never even get listed on this site.

    My question is why today I can't play the asian version of games and I am stuck playing dumbed down N/A version of games? The one game I probably won't play on N/A release is ArchAge even though it is a awesome game as it stands in Asia.

  • TheKrautTheKraut Tampa, FLPosts: 48Member

    Epitomy of lazy development.

    Doing them as a side progession thing is fine, as EQ did with LDoN for people that didn't have time that night to raid or just wanted a quick group. It had its own rewards that could augment your regular gear, yet it didn't create a bottleneck of the same instanced dungeon 'everyone' needed for their level 20 gear/quest/whatever that games do now.

    The way instancing is now caters to the lowest common denominator player that does the exact same instance over and over, to get the exact same gear as everyone else to progress in the exact same manner everyone else is, or will be doing. It's the everyone gets the same trophy mentality and its sheer laziness and a lack of insightfulness.

    It's sadening that a game from 10+ years ago figured out how to stage a world for an MMO, and the way games have gone since then couldn't have strayed more off coarse if you had done it on purpose.

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  • bingbongbrosbingbongbros Vista, CAPosts: 650Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by yangdude* *snip* Does anyone out there actually like it - and if so why?  Is instancing a result of developers trying to cramb so much into each small area that it cant be done in an open world format? 

    Instancing is something I can't stand, but I can see why it was developed.  The first instances I ever saw was in Everquest 1, with the Lost Dungeons of Norrath expansion.  And it had a pretty significant impact on the game and the world.

     

    It literally made most of the zones people would hunt/camp in ghost towns because they could just take the group through these instances over and over and gain better exp and get actual gear/rewards from the adventure league guys who gave the quests.

     

    I hated this invention because of that.  I liked traveling the world, going to different zones on different continents for the adventure of fighting new mobs with a group in new lands.  And these LDoN instances completely destroyed all of that.  Now we were just grinding the same instanced dungeons over and over and over till kingdom come.

     

    Then WoW followed the same method EQ1 developed and it just got worse and worse with each game afterwards till we are at where we are now.  But I can see why they did it, no more camps in open dungeons with people waiting in line or aruging who got there first, or training the crap out of each other to clear the groups out. 

     

    No more kill stealing, ninjaing, over crowding, etc.  All gone with nice little neat instanced copies.  Easy to manage and much easier for gamers to mindlessly grind.  But the sad side effect was the death of the actual living world and the eb and flow of community all moving and shaking through the same stomping grounds.

     

    I still have hope in my jaded heart that someday mmo's will move away from instances and reembrace the original fantastic ability to hunt and play in the same open world together.

    Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramones274

    He wasn't saying instancing is new. He was saying, why does modern development seem to lean towards this ideology, which should be pretty much dated at this point. Instancing should be a thing of the past.

    It's not an ideology, it's a mechanic that can serve a range of purposes from technical to narrative.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Ramones274

    He wasn't saying instancing is new. He was saying, why does modern development seem to lean towards this ideology, which should be pretty much dated at this point. Instancing should be a thing of the past.

    It's not an ideology, it's a mechanic that can serve a range of purposes from technical to narrative.

    Plus, it works.

    Shooting was there as a mechanics since the dawn of video games .. you don't see it going anywhere.

    Good ideas stick around.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    It's not an ideology, it's a mechanic that can serve a range of purposes from technical to narrative.

    This.

    Instancing allows zones to consume more resources, sometimes these resources help make the game play smoother, sometimes they are directed at better graphics or resolving more players on a screen at a given time. List goes on.

    So many people in this thread act like instancing is all about taking their fun away when it's just a tool that developers use so that they can introduce other things that they might not have otherwise been able to.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by yangdude
    I've played PWI (yes that old outdated etc game) for some time now and assumed that the open world style was the norm. Then having jumped on the GW2 bandwagon I was very confused by the gameplay style. So this is 'instanced' where you have a small area to quest in, then (at least back when it started) you wait in line to get into the next area? I must admit I was baffled. I dont have a lot of MMO experience and suddenly this super new game seems like a whole bunch of small games linked together by portals.How is it that this is even accepted by the gaming community. Like seriously, am I the only one that thinks the 'instanced' style of GW2 really sucks - I mean REALLY. I was extremely disappointed to say the least and it actually made me feel claustrophobic playing GW2.(as a sideline I didnt play GW2 for long because my computer wont play it for pvp but thats my problem)I guess I'm interested to hear others opinions on 'instancing'. Does anyone out there actually like it - and if so why? Is instancing a result of developers trying to cramb so much into each small area that it cant be done in an open world format?

    Instanced games are much much cheaper to create. Millions of players have accepted it, and millions have not. Add my name to the latter.


    That said, I enjoyed LDON quite a bit. But that was some instanced content in a massive, non-instanced world. Nowadays everything is instanced. NO longer do you open a door and go into a building; you, instead click on a door and teleport into an instance of the building. Cheaper development.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arclan


     

     

    Instanced games are much much cheaper to create. Millions of players have accepted it, and millions have not. Add my name to the latter.


    That said, I enjoyed LDON quite a bit. But that was some instanced content in a massive, non-instanced world. Nowadays everything is instanced. NO longer do you open a door and go into a building; you, instead click on a door and teleport into an instance of the building. Cheaper development.

    Cheaper development.

    Easier to control the experience .. for example, add a difficulty option.

    Can script events to change the "world" within the instances ... good for story telling, and multi-stage quests.

    Lots of advantages. no wonder it is so popular.

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member

    next gen instancing.

    public world area  : Forest of the green Acid Blob

    channel 1 for players item lvl 10-20

    channel 2 for players iLevel 21-30

    etc..

    it wont be only matchmaking at PvP anymore,it will be matchmaking everywhere.

    no more "there was that XXxsuperkillerxXX camping my mobs or gathering my resources faster than light etc.

    no no no,nice plastic world lies ahead.

     

    Let's internet

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ForumPvP

    next gen instancing.

    public world area  : Forest of the green Acid Blob

    channel 1 for players item lvl 10-20

    channel 2 for players iLevel 21-30

    etc..

    it wont be only matchmaking at PvP anymore,it will be matchmaking everywhere.

    no more "there was that XXxsuperkillerxXX camping my mobs or gathering my resources faster than light etc.

    no no no,nice plastic world lies ahead.

     

    Yeah the use of channel for seamless matching will be great.

    I think Destiny (they call it share world shooter) will be using something like that.

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ForumPvP

    next gen instancing.

    public world area  : Forest of the green Acid Blob

    channel 1 for players item lvl 10-20

    channel 2 for players iLevel 21-30

    etc..

    it wont be only matchmaking at PvP anymore,it will be matchmaking everywhere.

    no more "there was that XXxsuperkillerxXX camping my mobs or gathering my resources faster than light etc.

    no no no,nice plastic world lies ahead.

     

    Yeah the use of channel for seamless matching will be great.

    I think Destiny (they call it share world shooter) will be using something like that.

    Yes there is obviously a huge market for that kind of ideas,no doubt about that.

     

     

    Let's internet

  • DahkohtDahkoht Pelham, ALPosts: 290Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arclan


     

     

    Instanced games are much much cheaper to create. Millions of players have accepted it, and millions have not. Add my name to the latter.


    That said, I enjoyed LDON quite a bit. But that was some instanced content in a massive, non-instanced world. Nowadays everything is instanced. NO longer do you open a door and go into a building; you, instead click on a door and teleport into an instance of the building. Cheaper development.

    Cheaper development.

    Easier to control the experience .. for example, add a difficulty option.

    Can script events to change the "world" within the instances ... good for story telling, and multi-stage quests.

    Lots of advantages. no wonder it is so popular.

    I have not problem with some games going this route.

    But there's obviously a population of folks like myself , who don't care a white about "story" , or private instances , and would very much like an open world , non instanced anything setting.

    Whether we will get it or not , I'm at least glad to see some developers seeing that "story" and voice acting , isnt everything its cracked up to be in a mmorpg.

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    For all the good instancing can do, it has done one thing to my MMO experience which I find unforgivable: breaking immersion. As soon as I'm in a copy of a world/dungeon, the experience deteriorates because of the lack of a persistant, singular world.

    I would have to guess this doesn't bother other people as much as it bothers me because I find it very disruptive to gameplay.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    For all the good instancing can do, it has done one thing to my MMO experience which I find unforgivable: breaking immersion. As soon as I'm in a copy of a world/dungeon, the experience deteriorates because of the lack of a persistant, singular world.

    I would have to guess this doesn't bother other people as much as it bothers me because I find it very disruptive to gameplay.

    Obvious it does not bother people. In fact, this "immerision" is not important to me at all. It is not like i don't know i am playing a game. When i play other games (like SP or even online games), it is not like i don't know there are millions others doing the same.

    Fun is much more important. Given the popularity of LoL, WoT, D3 (all instanced) ... i bet it is not a huge issues for most gamers.

    BTW, i think it is the opoosite. Instanced is much LESS disruptive to gameplay. You go in there, and you are not disrupted by the need to travel, or talk to people .. and you can focus on adventure and combat.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    actually no - gw2 (and aoc) "instancing" is a protection against "empty zones" which do happen a lot in most of other mmorpgs when most of the players are already max level - have to say i was not bothered by it in gw2 at all (well mostly at all, i could have live w/o a time it took to transit from overflow to normal zone)

    imageimage

     

    Also, instancing has been around for over a decade now. 

    I wonder what your opinion on Instancing is Loktofeit....

    image

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