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[Column] Elder Scrolls Online: An Argument for 'Faction Lock'

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  • KyelthisKyelthis Phoenix, AZPosts: 284Member
    Originally posted by Deivos
    Originally posted by Kyelthis

    Wrong, Oblivion changed this from the other games for whatever reason they had at the time, bad game design was all that was. Skyrim still kept this "NPCs leveling with the PC" to a certain degree, but was far less hand hold-ish than Oblivion. That's not to try and disprove anything you said by the way.

    As far as TES being a sandbox or a themepark, not that it really matters which it is since you either like the games or you don't, but it's been mostly a mix of both. Certain sandbox elements are in the game, but by no means is it a 100% sandbox. TESO actually has a sandbox element not seen in the series yet, using a skill makes it gain proficiency. The class system in both TESO and the single player games are based on themepark systems, not sandbox systems. The questing along with a central story line, no REAL permanent impact on the world with decisions you choose, no impact on the economy, and no ability to control lands, build on them, or form major alliances not "allowed" by the game make TES series games side more heavily on themeparks than sandboxes. The online game may change some of these, possibly the economy and territory controlling. 

    Just figured to note a few points.

    While techncially true about the changes between Morrowind to the next two titles in regards to monsters scaling with player level, Morrowind and the games prior to it were also exceptionally prone to some simple gameplay elements making the player very powerful very fast, game difficulty was never a problem in those titles.

    This isn't to say there's not ways to do so in Oblivion and Skyrim, just that they gave no direct means to do so outside of progressing in skills.

     

    Bringing me to the next point on skill progression. the 'class system' in the single player titles has some similarities, but is not based on a themepark system, nor is it a definite or strict mechanic. In addition to that, given skills aren't individual things in any of the games, but instead inherent components of an entire branch, skill progression is notably different.

     

    As for the core game being more themepark in design, I'm not going to argue that. The core game if you play it just as you get it out of the box is going to give you a finite experience.

    This is why people call it a themepark.

    However, the PC market for Bethesda generally should know better, as a dedicated segment is the modding community.

    The fact the TES series has been handled by Bethesda in hand with the creation kit tools and the exposed console commands, both putting the user in control of re-engineering the game in many ways and going so far as mini dev groups doing total conversions, makes it relatively clear that the game is at the whim of the player if they want to do something different with it.

    The strongest rebuttal people can make to this is that it's not built so that you can do it immediately in-game. That's an almost fair claim, but lacks the understanding that much of the long term appeal of the series has not simply come from the world we were given, but the understanding that we could take and rebuild it based on our own desires as a modding community, that the world wasn't just our to make a mark on, but to reform in our own image if we saw it fit.

    The lore was fun and the gameplay was interesting, there were plenty of places to explore indeed.

    I dare you to place the amount of time played by a 'vanilla' gamer next to a modder though, and see how turning the game into a personal sandbox with the tools Bethesda gave us and we consequently expand upon, and know that the strongest TES fanbase exists very much so as a sandbox community playing the TES titles as sandbox games.

    Well said Deivos. The class system isn't one of the themepark elements I stated above, but the progression of skills. I love the systems they have in TES as it allows a freedom of choice and build throughout. I only wish they had a skill progression system which gets better the more you use a skill, a trademark sandbox element. TESO will have this, but it will have a bit more rigid class system than any of the single player games so it's basically a wash for me. 

    I understand what you're saying about mods, I've always been a huge fan of mods myself but at it's core design, aside from community input, the games have always been themepark-ish. That was the main point I was trying to make in my first post. Now, it was stated that TESO will allow modding so I'm curious if that's only slight mods like UI modifications or something larger for groups outside of PvP.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Vannor
    I just think that the more an MMO (or any game) tells us what we can and what we can't do in terms of travel or exploration.. the less it feels like a virtual 'world'. This faction lock stuff is 'probably' a prime example of something like that.
     

    This is the problem with modern gamers. Its the same with how TES has changed over the years. You made a choice and it impacted the rest of the game. You could kill a NPC from the major story line if you wanted to. Picking one faction over another had deep impact and added reply. But people now a days get upset when that happens so RPGs get watered down more and more till choices dont matter much. Heck go ahead and join a faction in Skyrim or Oblivion it wont change anything. Everyone will still like you lol. 

    Here ESO is taking a real step back into TES roots of picking a faction matters. Its a real impact to the game that adds reply value. How do we look at it, cry and cry and cry till they water it down more and more till its a shell of the game it could have been. Even TES series is doing this to conform to the masses who want to have the freedom to not have their choices matter because I wana see it all. Forget depth and reply value lets make all RPGs water down. Sad. The internet and feedback are breaking our games and we call it progress.

    Though I agree with your first part, I don't agree with your second part.

    Faction doesn't matter. Other than race choice and perhaps race based skills, it's all the same. Well, maybe one race will be more magical and another more brutal strength based but that's flavor. You will still attack your enemies and you are supposed to have faction pride because these are your peeps. regardless of whether you played with them or not.

    If I join one side I will be fighting X and Y. If I join another side I will be fighting Y and Z. How does it matter?

    There is a difference between making a decision in the game as part of game play and then having that decision make certain npc's hate you, other's love you and because of this decision it closes off certain avenues but opens new avenues.

    That's where choice matters. Otherwise you know you will be fighting in Cyrodill for any of the factions. You'll just look different and have different racial abilities.

    Picking a faction from the locked factions isn't making a real hard choice through game play.

    edit: example, I play the game and find out that those dark elves have slaves. What's more, it's supported by the leaders of Morrowind. However, there are specific resources as well as avenues for those resources in morrowind.

    do I eschew those resources because of their dirty dealings and join the fight against them or do I cave in and realize that i need those resources therefore I support a side that extols slavery?

    one choice will give me one thing and another choice will give me something different. Closing and opening game play options due to that choice.

     

    Does not matter when you make the decision. It still a decision that impacts your game. My Dark elf in EQ1 from creation was hated by most of the game. Changed how I did everything. My point stands, there are less and less real RPGers and less and less real RPG games where choice matters. We get a glimmer of that and we cry till its watered down more and more to please the masses. Epic games are becoming something we see less and less and gamers are part of that problem. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • mambomemambome Brownwood, TXPosts: 16Member
    Aren't racially locked factions pretty much necessitated by the lore? And why all the bitching about this now? Where were you guys when we couldn't roll imperial?
    Personally, I wouldn't mind if races could switch faction by grinding out reputation a LA eq 1, but being KoS is something I've missed in modern MMOs.
  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     We get a glimmer of that and we cry till its watered down more and more to please the masses. Epic games are becoming something we see less and less and gamers are part of that problem. 

    Funny, who desides what is or is not epic?

    I sure didnt hear DaoC fans call SWG Epic, nor SWG fans call DaoC epic and how many of them called games before them epic...so it all comes down to people saying their game was epic and not the other.

    So it basically comes down to DaoC fans Vs TES fans and last time I checked the offical TES forums and even TES modding forums...there are far more of them than DaoC fans. So who is right and who is wrong? Just looking at the MMO Genre alone, the DaoC closed faction land model is in the wrong. Heck, not even Mark Jacobs wants to make CU so not even DaoC fans are united.

    So...there is no "we get a glimmer" its "you get a glimmer".

  • ThandrasThandras Huntington, WVPosts: 41Member

    Just when you thought the horse was finally dead enough... someone had to start beating it again.

    It's obvious the people that hate the game design are going to hate the game. The people that are okay with the design are going to be okay with it.

    Do we really need any more articles about this subject?

    I really wish that both sides could get exactly what they want, but this is reality and it's just simply not goting to happen. You can't please everyone.

    Is Zenimax making a mistake with the crowd it chose to try to please? Maybe... We will just have to wait and see. If it fails, all the TES fanatics can come here and cry from the mountain tops... "I TOLD YOU SO ! " If it's a success, well, the fanatics will still complain. I know I would if I were that invested in something. But when it comes down to it... It's just a damn game.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    I am a bit annoyed that they have softened their stance on faction locks.  I think it adds flavour to the various factions and makes the game more interesting.  Having complete freedom like in EQ2 just makes race choice feel like an appearance skin, rather than an important aspect of your character.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JasonJ
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     We get a glimmer of that and we cry till its watered down more and more to please the masses. Epic games are becoming something we see less and less and gamers are part of that problem. 

    Funny, who desides what is or is not epic?

    I sure didnt hear DaoC fans call SWG Epic, nor SWG fans call DaoC epic and how many of them called games before them epic...so it all comes down to people saying their game was epic and not the other.

    So it basically comes down to DaoC fans Vs TES fans and last time I checked the offical TES forums and even TES modding forums...there are far more of them than DaoC fans. So who is right and who is wrong? Just looking at the MMO Genre alone, the DaoC closed faction land model is in the wrong. Heck, not even Mark Jacobs wants to make CU so not even DaoC fans are united.

    So...there is no "we get a glimmer" its "you get a glimmer".

    I was talking about RPS in generial not DAoC vs TES. Reread the conversation you cut out. I was calling TES Morrowind and back the epic games. RPGs like that when decision mattered.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,905Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Vannor
    I just think that the more an MMO (or any game) tells us what we can and what we can't do in terms of travel or exploration.. the less it feels like a virtual 'world'. This faction lock stuff is 'probably' a prime example of something like that.
     

    This is the problem with modern gamers. Its the same with how TES has changed over the years. You made a choice and it impacted the rest of the game. You could kill a NPC from the major story line if you wanted to. Picking one faction over another had deep impact and added reply. But people now a days get upset when that happens so RPGs get watered down more and more till choices dont matter much. Heck go ahead and join a faction in Skyrim or Oblivion it wont change anything. Everyone will still like you lol. 

    Here ESO is taking a real step back into TES roots of picking a faction matters. Its a real impact to the game that adds reply value. How do we look at it, cry and cry and cry till they water it down more and more till its a shell of the game it could have been. Even TES series is doing this to conform to the masses who want to have the freedom to not have their choices matter because I wana see it all. Forget depth and reply value lets make all RPGs water down. Sad. The internet and feedback are breaking our games and we call it progress.

    Though I agree with your first part, I don't agree with your second part.

    Faction doesn't matter. Other than race choice and perhaps race based skills, it's all the same. Well, maybe one race will be more magical and another more brutal strength based but that's flavor. You will still attack your enemies and you are supposed to have faction pride because these are your peeps. regardless of whether you played with them or not.

    If I join one side I will be fighting X and Y. If I join another side I will be fighting Y and Z. How does it matter?

    There is a difference between making a decision in the game as part of game play and then having that decision make certain npc's hate you, other's love you and because of this decision it closes off certain avenues but opens new avenues.

    That's where choice matters. Otherwise you know you will be fighting in Cyrodill for any of the factions. You'll just look different and have different racial abilities.

    Picking a faction from the locked factions isn't making a real hard choice through game play.

    edit: example, I play the game and find out that those dark elves have slaves. What's more, it's supported by the leaders of Morrowind. However, there are specific resources as well as avenues for those resources in morrowind.

    do I eschew those resources because of their dirty dealings and join the fight against them or do I cave in and realize that i need those resources therefore I support a side that extols slavery?

    one choice will give me one thing and another choice will give me something different. Closing and opening game play options due to that choice.

     

    People like to talk as if we've played through this game already, that goes for both sides in this debate. For all we know each faction could play completely different in terms of PVE content; motivations, ideologies, etc.. could be completely different per side. That creates choices based on faction from an RP standpoint, and from the very start of the game. This may not be the case and it could be mirrored content up and down per side. That's the thing about the unknown, it's unkown. Yet we speak about this stuff as if it all happened in the past and we're discussing the end result..

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon


    I can completely appreciate the sense of disappointment I’ve been seeing from gamers, but I have a feeling this is one MMO compromise that may just pay off in the grand scheme of things. It may feel restrictive at first, but perhaps the pros will outweigh the cons once we can jump in and see it all for ourselves.

    This statement by Mike B. is exactly why I have been advocating for the inclusion of an RvR type Faction lock for a long time now.

    I understand alot of fans are upset about this but in the grand scheme of things when the game is finished the vast majority of the gameplay is gonna feel like a TES game but then you also add in RvR (or as ZOS calls it AvA) and you got yourself one helluva great potential in a game. As I said in another sub-forum about a particular game, not having PvE is IMO a sin for an MMO because PvE is the Yang to PvP's Ying. A good MMO has PvE and PvP and in ESO's defense it appears its going to have the best of both worlds. I.e. Arguably the best PvE from TES style RPG's with the Best PvP from DAoC's RvR style.

    I just dont see nothing wrong with that especially with how much emphasis Zenimax Online Studios is putting in making the PvE portion as close to and Elder Scrolls Experience as possible.

    I have high hopes for this game for both of thsoe reasons, and although I am not without apprehension but the point remains having great PvE and great PvP with plenty of systems to foster replayability and long term retention is what IMO makes a great MMO.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    Didnt need to read past "Coincidence? Probably not." to know this is just an article being written due to MONEY being given to them.

    There isnt a single person, not even hardcore DaoC fans that can argue that it is not a coincidence because THERE ARE NO DAOC FACTIONS LOCKED BEHIND AN INVISIBLE WALL clones out there, no one but the makers of that game thought it was a good enough idea to do it in another game...

    Coincidence? Duh.

    No amount of articles is going to change the minds of the TES fans that have been arguing against this crap move on every single TES site, its a small box being made for a game meant for an open world. Deal with that fact, and the fact you are not going to change the minds of those pissed off with anything less than a TES MMO with an open world.

     

    Narrow mindedness is arguably a greater gaming sin then hype my friend. 

     

    I might also add that no one went the DAoC route because of 2 reasons:

    1. ToA destroyed the community and turned the game into a PvE grind
    2. WoW was in development and many articles were being written about how it was going to redefine the MMO genre.
    Both of those had huge ramifications on why no other studio tried to redo the DAoC RvR model but I can assure you if someone would of then they could of been just as successful as WoW or damn near it.
     
    As for your last point, I find it funny that there are so many articles being written by TES fans who are enamored with the potential of ESO.  In fact there is this particular podcast which is in the top 10 (last time I looked) of iTunes called Elder Scrolls Off The Record and the majority of those guys are avid haters of past MMO's and their community is constantly getting more and more excited about ESO's potential.  Many of which have never played an MMO.  So your last statement is extreme hyperbole.  Wishful thinking doesn't make something true!

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    From henceforth I shall forever more refer to jycgs as Sour Bill.

    I don't necessarily disagree with what you say but you have to be the biggest cranky pants in this thread.

    Ryo is a distant second.

    Fine by me, place me in the same catagory as most major TES fans on every single TES/MMO site that is majorly pissed off at our TES being made into a DaoC style game when there was no reason for it. MMOs have proven the DaoC style RvR limitations are not needed, or wanted by anyone other than DaoC players...and the fact that this article parrots the developers talking points like "realm pride" and "clearly identified factions" proves it because other games PROVED its BS that is not needed.

    Either way I am happy to be lumped together with those that love the IP, want to protect it and want it to GROW and not REGRESS into a KOTOR/SWTOR type disaster.

    No other MMO has tried 3 faction PvP sinse DAoC. GW2 has this 2 week reset thing where you dont get to know the guilds you fight on the other factions or its players. So you get to gell in the war effort. Alliances dont form. Tatics dont progress. Every PvP MMO sinse DAoC has been compaired to DAoC the best PvP game that sits as the gold standard all MMOs have tried to capture in quality and faction pride sinse then.

    The PvE game look really rich and full as well. Speaking as a TES fan (been playing them forever) I dont think we could ask for a better set up. Exploring looks rich and awesome. Elder game you can explore all maps and its filled with ruins and caves, 2 and 4 man dungeons. Instanced dungeons as well. Public quests as well as phased events that spin off from the open world for large group encounters that anyone can join. I am not sure what more you could ask for. 

    Lets not forget that GW2's WvW does 3 things wrong on top of this:

    1. The WvW areas are cut off from the other areas its basically a game within a game which limits the immersion.
    2. You fight the same races as the ones that are on your side
    3. The WvW is about the size as a pee-wee football field.  Literally theres no way for small scaled groups to flourish without getting rolled by the zergs.
    All of those plays into a sense of why even do it?  DAoC's Frontiers and ESO's Cryodill are freaking huge, as big or bigger then the average size of the PvE areas each faction get.  This allows PvE to also be included in the zones and gives greater purpose for the zergs to break off into smaller groups to cover more territory.  Of course DAoC had its zergs and without fail so will ESO but the point stands, it will be more tactically sound for small groups to split off and do their own things....on top of having the PvE'ers out trying to do PvE content like clearing dungeons or farming for rare resources for their crafting.  None of those things are possible in GW2 due to its miniscule size of the WvW maps.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Trudge34

    Every time I read another article on TESO I get more and more disappointed. I felt that the Elder Scrolls title would have been my perfect setting for the next MMO after I quit EverQuest. The possibilities of a massive, wide open world to explore in Tamriel was very enticing. Meeting up with people, exploring the many dungeons and places scattered around the region, setting up camp in a far corner or deep in a dungeon for a bit before moving on. I thought that only ES could provide that.

     

    Can't even comprehend how disappointed I was when the announcement came that it would be a RvR style game with a linear personal story up to max level with some ES components thrown in. Didn't sound like ES to me at all. Seems they have gone back a bit on that, but their RvR and storyline are set in stone. The barriers given to each faction are ridiculous in the eyes of pretty much any fan of the Elder Scrolls series to date, all with the RvR in mind, which shouldn't even be the focus of an Elder Scrolls game.

     

    At the VERY LEAST, I thought maybe, just maybe, the RvR could be limited to those who want to take part in it. Maybe much like Joining the Stormcloak Rebellion or The Imperial Legion. Do a quest sequence to gain acceptance into that faction in order to fight along their side. Taking Skyrim for just an example...having the Stormcloak v Imperials v Dark Brotherhood would be an interesting thing. The two main factions going at it, the DB as the rogue 3rd party who have hits on either side.

     

    The biggest thing I feel sad about this game is that there is so much potential just...lost.

     

    You can still do all those things.....please read my post up above.  They are basically making Skyrim online where exploration is still in and is rewarding.  Theres no need to follow a linear storyline if you dont want to.  Lets also not forget that MW. Obl and Sky all had linear quests (storylines) as well.  Many chose not to follow, many did....that same freedom exists in ESO.

     

    Just because the added another layer on top of an Elder Scrolls game doesnt make it any less an Elder Scrolls game.  I jsut wish people could understand this one little concept.  Nothing is being taking away but stuff is being added.  Choose to play it or not I could care less but to say the things you said in your post are extremely narrow and boardering on ignorance due to a lack of information thats readily available.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    You dont even know what sandbox means let alone themepark.

    A Themepark story driven game requires you to do the story to advance. EXAMPLE. In KOTOR you cannot even leave the starting area until you complete the storyline...nor can you move from the first world to the second or from there to ANY OTHER WORLD until you unlock them via storyline.

    THAT IS THEMEPARK.

    In TES, the WORLD is OPEN without even doing a SINGLE QUEST.

    THAT IS SANDPARK.

    IN TESO you cannot move forward until you are the correct level and it keeps funnelling you throught the invisible walled in faction right to the center, where they placed the war, you know, the war...which the ENTIRE world is taking part in yet everyone is fighting only at this magical place in the center...

    You dont get it, because you dont know what they even are...or you are trolling.

    Actually in KOTOR, that is only the case until you complete your Jedi initiation then you're pretty much free to do as you please story wise until you reach the end.

    Regardless a non linear story means sandbox?

    Lets look at TES sandbox elements for a second...

    Shop partnership, Housing/Heatths Fire, Marriage/family, the crime system/jails etc..., these are sandbox elements but the way they're implemented outside of the crime system, it's completely static, it really doesn't create gameplay outside of roleplaying.

    Good examples of sandbox gameplay would be something like Minecraft, the indie title Kenshi, sandbox modes in RTS games.

    TES is an excellent RP platform, but as far as sandbox game-play goes it offers little. Anyway if we want to discuss sandboxes and TES elements related to that lets do so in a topic devoted to that.

     

    This has been the heart of the topic. There is a group of TSE fans who think you cant have a good game unless it models TES to the level of it being sandbox. And sandbox means to be able to wander anywhere, done. So the faction lock breaks ESO and is no longer a real TES game. Its a crazy loop that never seems to die. On that note Minecraft is a sandbox game and I am glad someone knows what that means lol

    The onus is on Zenimax to either make an Elder Scrolls MMO or a bastardized version of Dark Age of Camelot.  They need to make up their mind quick or suffer dire consequences.  Considering that Camelot Unchained is being made and is a better fit for DAoC 2, they might want to give the Elder Scrolls fans' input more credence.

    CU is not DAoC2, it does not even have PvE and DAoC had some sick awesome PvE. I know lots of DAoC fans who wont even bother with CU and adding 3 faction DAoC model does not make ESO a DAoC2 game as well.

    Me being one of them, as well as my entire guild who will be moving to ESO from GW2 when it launches.  Also I believe Team Legacy recently announced they are going to ESO.  Not having PvE is a poor game decision and I know plenty of people who wont even touch it for that reason.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,414Member Uncommon

    Thinking of all the people I know who are interested in the Elder Scrolls games and ESO, none of them are interested in RvR PvP. I am probably the only one of the 7 who will dip my toe in there,  and that only because I like to take a look at all parts of a game.   So every decision made to support RvR is of no import to them.  If it gets in their way, there is no corresponding bonus. 

     

    Bethesda is going to have to figure out a happy medium between having RvR there to keep top enders and content locusts busy, and losing sales to those who don't care about it at all.  

     

    The racial faction lock is just a developer conveniance, in my opinion.  I don't think they grasped the dynamics of their fan base.  I personally think they are getting an earful of feedback now though.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • AnakamiAnakami BielefeldPosts: 103Member

    First of all: It is hilarious to see the "If you criticize ESO you must HATE the game" crowd. That makes so much sense. I mean, we give input on where we feel the game misses the opportunity of being a big hit with TES fans and how we think they could improve it, but naturally that means we hate the game, right? :D

    Second: This article ... while I respect Mike's stance on this, I have a totally different one. Especially when it comes to the "Grand Scheme". For me that is how the world will feel to me after I decide to step into it and spend a lot of time there. I am glad that people who played this at PAX are saying that the zones are made in a way that feels like ES. Awesome. 

    It is certainly important and factors into the enjoyment for me, but for me all this pales in comparison to some of the major issues I have with their game design choices. Funny that, btw. They made a lot of choices that took away the very same from us.

    I can't get over the fact that by choosing my favorite race the game automatically assigns me to a faction that I may or may not like. It also assigns allies to me that I have to like no matter what. It also assigns one third of Tamriel to me as my playground, closing off the rest until 50, and even then its just an empty instance with only my own faction in it.

    I also lose the common tongue right at the start where I chose my race, because suddenly I will not be able to speak with and understand six of the other races of Tamriel.

    So much forcing, and all tied to the race selection. I am sorry, but no matter how much they try to tailor the lore to somehow explain that, it will never be Elder Scrolls for me.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Anakami

    First of all: It is hilarious to see the "If you criticize ESO you must HATE the game" crowd. That makes so much sense. I mean, we give input on where we feel the game misses the opportunity of being a big hit with TES fans and how we think they could improve it, but naturally that means we hate the game, right? :D

    Second: This article ... while I respect Mike's stance on this, I have a totally different one. Especially when it comes to the "Grand Scheme". For me that is how the world will feel to me after I decide to step into it and spend a lot of time there. I am glad that people who played this at PAX are saying that the zones are made in a way that feels like ES. Awesome. 

    It is certainly important and factors into the enjoyment for me, but for me all this pales in comparison to some of the major issues I have with their game design choices. Funny that, btw. They made a lot of choices that took away the very same from us.

    I can't get over the fact that by choosing my favorite race the game automatically assigns me to a faction that I may or may not like. It also assigns allies to me that I have to like no matter what. It also assigns one third of Tamriel to me as my playground, closing off the rest until 50, and even then its just an empty instance with only my own faction in it.

    I also lose the common tongue right at the start where I chose my race, because suddenly I will not be able to speak with and understand six of the other races of Tamriel.

    So much forcing, and all tied to the race selection. I am sorry, but no matter how much they try to tailor the lore to somehow explain that, it will never be Elder Scrolls for me.

    No one is criticizing anyone for "hating" the game, we are criticising those for not seeing the bigger picture.  Everything about the game is Elder Scrolls and there are countless youtube videos and forum threads from those who witnessed its glory at Pax or at the Press event last month.  To discount what thsoe who said was ESO is truely an Elder scrolls game and continue to either disbelive it or continue to make wild and false assumptions and those who have an obvious agenda are the ones I criticize!

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • AnakamiAnakami BielefeldPosts: 103Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Anakami

    First of all: It is hilarious to see the "If you criticize ESO you must HATE the game" crowd. That makes so much sense. I mean, we give input on where we feel the game misses the opportunity of being a big hit with TES fans and how we think they could improve it, but naturally that means we hate the game, right? :D

    Second: This article ... while I respect Mike's stance on this, I have a totally different one. Especially when it comes to the "Grand Scheme". For me that is how the world will feel to me after I decide to step into it and spend a lot of time there. I am glad that people who played this at PAX are saying that the zones are made in a way that feels like ES. Awesome. 

    It is certainly important and factors into the enjoyment for me, but for me all this pales in comparison to some of the major issues I have with their game design choices. Funny that, btw. They made a lot of choices that took away the very same from us.

    I can't get over the fact that by choosing my favorite race the game automatically assigns me to a faction that I may or may not like. It also assigns allies to me that I have to like no matter what. It also assigns one third of Tamriel to me as my playground, closing off the rest until 50, and even then its just an empty instance with only my own faction in it.

    I also lose the common tongue right at the start where I chose my race, because suddenly I will not be able to speak with and understand six of the other races of Tamriel.

    So much forcing, and all tied to the race selection. I am sorry, but no matter how much they try to tailor the lore to somehow explain that, it will never be Elder Scrolls for me.

    No one is criticizing anyone for "hating" the game, we are criticising those for not seeing the bigger picture.  Everything about the game is Elder Scrolls and there are countless youtube videos and forum threads from those who witnessed its glory at Pax or at the Press event last month.  To discount what thsoe who said was ESO is truely an Elder scrolls game and continue to either disbelive it or continue to make wild and false assumptions and those who have an obvious agenda are the ones I criticize!

    I think we have to differentiate here a bit. When people say they liked the game and felt it was like ES, then it would indeed be silly to discredit or disbelieve that. Because it was their impression and opinion, and you can hardly tell someone his opinion is wrong. The same goes for those who still feel it isn't really Elder Scrolls.

    They have explained in much detail why they think the game hasn't that special ES feeling to it, and that is also something you cannot dispute because it is their impression and opinion. What a true ES game is, has been and always will be, a very subjective and personal thing.

    Those praising the game are as right as are those who criticize certain aspects of it.

    But i guess if everyone would just accept that opinions differ and be fine with it, we wouldn't have much forum activity :) Although a bit more constructive feedback and reasonable discussion would be great.

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    TES was a themepark game so np there lol. Tell me its sandpark and I will laugh at you. TES had nothing you could do to build or shape the world in any way. The player was stuck picking what set of rails you wanted to follow. Only thing even close to sandbox about TES was the class system. So themepark fixes for a themepark origins. 

    Oh you are one of those...TES was a themepark because it had a story people...

    In TES you could make a character, go anywhere right from the start outside of perhaps 2% of the game locked by story and never once do a quest. There were no dungeons with mobs you couldnt kill right after character creation that werent just as tuff 100 hours into the game. You could pick up a tool and do nothing but gather and craft EVERY SINGLE CRAFTING skill up to max, no hinderence, no caps, nothing to stop you from doing it right from the start...no ore or materials in some high level zone, behing some massive uber boss mob requiring 40 people to kill in order to get that super special material to craft that uber item of godlyness. No developer hand holding telling me this race belongs to that faction, nothing limtiing my ability to play the way I WANT TO PLAY.

    It was a sandbox.

    Now go on, reply with a laugh and no actual refute with ACTUAL THINGS PROVING its a themepark...because you cant, it is a sandbox...skyrim even more so because the developers worked hand in hand with Mod sites to HELP PLAYERS MOD THE GAME and even got Steam to create a MOD STORE!

    So you chuck out the story and quests in TES. Now what do you do thats so themepark that would keep people playing? Wander around not changing the world? Everything set up to tell the quests and story written. Its themepark. Welcome to the themepark MMO taken from its origins.

    You have zero clue what you're talking about. Sandbox isn't defined as technically being a game where you can build stuff, that's just what a lot of people think. It has to do with the amount of freedom a game has and TESO will not have much freedom. The Elder Scrolls series is all about playing the way you want to play and has always been that way. What this online versions is, I have no clue because it is most certainly NOT an Elder Scrolls game.

    Smile

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Vannor
    I just think that the more an MMO (or any game) tells us what we can and what we can't do in terms of travel or exploration.. the less it feels like a virtual 'world'. This faction lock stuff is 'probably' a prime example of something like that.
     

    This is the problem with modern gamers. Its the same with how TES has changed over the years. You made a choice and it impacted the rest of the game. You could kill a NPC from the major story line if you wanted to. Picking one faction over another had deep impact and added reply. But people now a days get upset when that happens so RPGs get watered down more and more till choices dont matter much. Heck go ahead and join a faction in Skyrim or Oblivion it wont change anything. Everyone will still like you lol. 

    Here ESO is taking a real step back into TES roots of picking a faction matters. Its a real impact to the game that adds reply value. How do we look at it, cry and cry and cry till they water it down more and more till its a shell of the game it could have been. Even TES series is doing this to conform to the masses who want to have the freedom to not have their choices matter because I wana see it all. Forget depth and reply value lets make all RPGs water down. Sad. The internet and feedback are breaking our games and we call it progress.

    Though I agree with your first part, I don't agree with your second part.

    Faction doesn't matter. Other than race choice and perhaps race based skills, it's all the same. Well, maybe one race will be more magical and another more brutal strength based but that's flavor. You will still attack your enemies and you are supposed to have faction pride because these are your peeps. regardless of whether you played with them or not.

    If I join one side I will be fighting X and Y. If I join another side I will be fighting Y and Z. How does it matter?

    There is a difference between making a decision in the game as part of game play and then having that decision make certain npc's hate you, other's love you and because of this decision it closes off certain avenues but opens new avenues.

    That's where choice matters. Otherwise you know you will be fighting in Cyrodill for any of the factions. You'll just look different and have different racial abilities.

    Picking a faction from the locked factions isn't making a real hard choice through game play.

    edit: example, I play the game and find out that those dark elves have slaves. What's more, it's supported by the leaders of Morrowind. However, there are specific resources as well as avenues for those resources in morrowind.

    do I eschew those resources because of their dirty dealings and join the fight against them or do I cave in and realize that i need those resources therefore I support a side that extols slavery?

    one choice will give me one thing and another choice will give me something different. Closing and opening game play options due to that choice.

     

    People like to talk as if we've played through this game already, that goes for both sides in this debate. For all we know each faction could play completely different in terms of PVE content; motivations, ideologies, etc.. could be completely different per side. That creates choices based on faction from an RP standpoint, and from the very start of the game. This may not be the case and it could be mirrored content up and down per side. That's the thing about the unknown, it's unkown. Yet we speak about this stuff as if it all happened in the past and we're discussing the end result..

     

     

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Distopia
     

    People like to talk as if we've played through this game already, that goes for both sides in this debate. For all we know each faction could play completely different in terms of PVE content; motivations, ideologies, etc.. could be completely different per side. That creates choices based on faction from an RP standpoint, and from the very start of the game. This may not be the case and it could be mirrored content up and down per side. That's the thing about the unknown, it's unkown. Yet we speak about this stuff as if it all happened in the past and we're discussing the end result..

     

     

     

    I strongly suspect, given the quests I encountered, that the quests will be pretty much "quests" that have little flavor with regards to different races.

    However, at first I read a blurb where the developers mentioned that the npc's wouldn't recognize your race but recently saw a snippet where one of them said they would. So maybe there are small glimmers of hope.

    Seeing that they opened the lands for continued pve leveling it makes sense that everyone can do each quest regardless of race.Unless they make flavors of quests for every race which I doubt.

    Still, my point stands that picking a faction isn't a moral choice it's a (I want to play x race choice/I want to play with my friend's choice). I suspect there are a good many elder scrolls players who would rather see join factions not based on race but on moral, ethical and idological differrences during the course of game play.

    Some people keep saying that mmo's are becoming "dumb" with their myriad fetch quests. So why not have actual quests that truly add depth to the game play?

    regarding a poster agove, "no" eve allows you to pick your guild/Alliance and you can then be at war with who you want.

    @nanfoodle, WoW took the World of Warcraft RTS and simply allowed one to play as one of the character's that inhabited the world. The problem with some elder scrolls plans is that TESO is simply taking a system from a completely different game and trying to build an Elder Scrolls game around it.

    It's not beyond the pale to realize that taking a game that has a long standing evolution and suddenly adding a game play mechanic that not only has little to do with the game but flies the face of what a good part of the series allowed might raise a few questions from players.

     

  • znaiikaznaiika denver, PAPosts: 203Member

    Zanimax studio stated, ESO is going to be as close as possible to Elders Scrolls, exsept for some extra hot keys since you can't pause the game to change weapons and use potions.

    When you start new play in Skyrim, you get to choose your race you want to play, then you get to decide which faction to choose to fight for, or even stay undecided to the end game, Elder Scrolls never had lock on cirtain race for cpacific Faction, weather it is stormcloaks or imperials, you can play as nord "who are by the way are stormcloaks" and join the imperial faction in a war for Tamriel, or any other race.

    What's forcing Zenimax to change the feel of Elder Scrolls lately?

    Why not use any other name if Elder Scrolls Online is not going to be as Elder Scrolls?

    In every MMO you can actualy see health bars to differ an ally and enemy, this is not the case to lock race to a cirtain faction.

    Then what is it?

    My best gues is, Zenymax already made lore and they don't want to change that.

    ESO is not going to be as Elder Scrolls.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    Faction locked races are great. Not be able to go where you want is dumb.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Distopia
     

    People like to talk as if we've played through this game already, that goes for both sides in this debate. For all we know each faction could play completely different in terms of PVE content; motivations, ideologies, etc.. could be completely different per side. That creates choices based on faction from an RP standpoint, and from the very start of the game. This may not be the case and it could be mirrored content up and down per side. That's the thing about the unknown, it's unkown. Yet we speak about this stuff as if it all happened in the past and we're discussing the end result..

     

     

     

    I strongly suspect, given the quests I encountered, that the quests will be pretty much "quests" that have little flavor with regards to different races.

    However, at first I read a blurb where the developers mentioned that the npc's wouldn't recognize your race but recently saw a snippet where one of them said they would. So maybe there are small glimmers of hope.

    Seeing that they opened the lands for continued pve leveling it makes sense that everyone can do each quest regardless of race.Unless they make flavors of quests for every race which I doubt.

    Still, my point stands that picking a faction isn't a moral choice it's a (I want to play x race choice/I want to play with my friend's choice). I suspect there are a good many elder scrolls players who would rather see join factions not based on race but on moral, ethical and idological differrences during the course of game play.

    Some people keep saying that mmo's are becoming "dumb" with their myriad fetch quests. So why not have actual quests that truly add depth to the game play?

    regarding a poster agove, "no" eve allows you to pick your guild/Alliance and you can then be at war with who you want.

    @nanfoodle, WoW took the World of Warcraft RTS and simply allowed one to play as one of the character's that inhabited the world. The problem with some elder scrolls plans is that TESO is simply taking a system from a completely different game and trying to build an Elder Scrolls game around it.

    It's not beyond the pale to realize that taking a game that has a long standing evolution and suddenly adding a game play mechanic that not only has little to do with the game but flies the face of what a good part of the series allowed might raise a few questions from players.

     

    My point is this, games grow and evolve or die. WoW is far from its RTS roots. Mario is no longer on a fixed screen fixing pipes. But enough of the IP has made it to the new game to say I know it. There is a core group of TES fans that are so stuck on things not changing they are missing out on what ESO could become. It can be the best of both world and never done before. Change is good but it hurts and first and its scary. But its fact, grow or die.

    Its worked for many video games in the past and it can bring new life to TES family of games. With this attitude we are seeing, many games that are HUGE and EPIC would never have been made because of player feedback. Game companies know what it takes to make great games but they need to stop trying to please everyone. As this is cauing a dumb down effect in our games. Make the game thats going to be great and stop taking every bit of feed back. Only take feedback that is in line with the core vision but stay true to the corse.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Faction locked races are great. Not be able to go where you want is dumb.

    Level 50 you can explore any faction map you want. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Faction locked races are great. Not be able to go where you want is dumb.

    Level 50 you can explore any faction map you want. 

    Till level 50 though it is invisible wall land!

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