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Everyone always says that heavy death penalties are a no no but everquest and UO two of the most popular games pre WOW had heavy death penalties that meant you could really go backwards.
This encouraged skill and intense play.
Originally posted by Charlie1066 Everyone always says that heavy death penalties are a no no but everquest and UO two of the most popular games pre WOW had heavy death penalties that meant you could really go backwards. This encouraged skill and intense play.
This makes more sense in a PvE game where the player has a lot of control over what is happening, although I still prefer a light death penalty in PvE anyway. But in an RvR game where it's often out of your control whether you get zerged by 200 Arthurians, it would suck.
Camelot Unchained BackerDAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer
Originally posted by Karraptathid Originally posted by meddyck Originally posted by LeahXtwo They charge your account 50 cents of RL money every time you rez.
But only if you are an Arthurian. Think of it as a population/zerg control measure.
That type of death penality would promote zergs. What's the safest place to be while playing in NF? Middle of a zerg, vs 8 man team roaming.
8 man team roaming = small zerg or a big zerg vs a two man team.
but when you die you have to write a text that describes why you did, and what you can do to avoid it (subject to approval). If you fail you have to write it again. If you pass you are ressed. A horrible deathpenalty by all accounts.
We like Permadeath for CU.
how about upon death you become a zombie and start attacking ANYONE on sight unless or until a Cleric blesses your tombstone allowing your spirit to return to your body and the zombie curse to be lifted.
Fair comment that its a RVR game. That being said, perhaps a light penalty like condition loss is more appropriate.
Its just meaningless if you can repair your charachter after being stomped into the floor for a few coppers.
In any PvP system, the assumption is that half the players die every fight (or that everyone dies half the time).
So, a lot of dying's going on.
The result is that death penalties shouldn't be too punitive, permanent, etc. XP loss = no, de-leveling = no.
The main things the devs have to work with is (a) time delay, and (b) performance reduction.
E.g. "portal" / travel time and rez sickness.
Generally speaking, since RvR is played out over several battlefields across a large map, the travel delay is an important and significant aspect of the game. The option for teleport/portal mechanics adds additional strategic options. So, the time delay of resurrection is a good mechanic.
I'd say the maximum delay for getting back to the furthest fight should be 20 minutes. In other words, if the fight is at the enemy's "home base" from your rez point, with no travel augmentation (portals), etc. 20m is a long time, but fighting straight at the enemy's doorstep from your spawnpoint should be discouraged.
Minimum delay should be 2 minutes (e.g. fighting at your doorstep against enemies who've traveled across the entire frontier). Between 2-20 minutes should be everything else -- portaling around, hoofing it across the frontiers, etc.
Rez sickness is another aspect, to diminish the effectiveness of rapid rezzes. I don't have a clear idea how I would like that mechanic to function, however. I think a lot would depend on how the rez system works (in combat? out of combat? long cast? short cast? resource-intensive?). Spammy rezzes (WAR) should have moderate, stacking, rez sickness. Slow, costly rezzes (DAOC) should have little to no rez sickness. Special rezzes can bypass penalties.
Minor coin loss from damaged gear is probably ok. I think that really depends on the economic system and crafting as a whole, rather than dying. E.g., it's not related to "death penalties"; it's really related to gold sink, since the assumption is that players die half the time, and players will repair 100% of the time they die. The variation there isn't significant from a tactical or strategic perspective (e.g. it doesn't impact RvR). So. Based on economics.
Originally posted by TribeofOne We like Permadeath for CU. i kid how about upon death you become a zombie and start attacking ANYONE on sight unless or until a Cleric blesses your tombstone allowing your spirit to return to your body and the zombie curse to be lifted.
or better yet how about if those killed in pvp BECOME PVE targets! You die in pvp, youre sent back to your own kingdom as a zombie attacking anyone on sight(crafters/town squaters) etc until either They Kill your zombie self, sending your soul back to your tombstone and pvp battle or a Cleric blesses your tombstone where you died, allowing you to resume pvp.
I know you were joking, but I was trying to make a point about harsh penalties and the effects on the game. Your post was perfect topic for me to do so.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
Originally posted by grogstormI think it would be nice to have an unconscious pool. DnD rules. So if you are defeated and the damage does not exceed your unconscious pool you can be awoken by allies. But if the damage exceeds your unconscious pool you are dead and have to be resurrected or release. And resurrection can only be done by healers. Example: Say a character has 2000 hit points and a unconscious pool of 200 hp (10%). Any damage that exceeds 2000 hp but not the 2200 hp unconscious limit would render the character unconscious and can be awoken by allies. And if the damage exceeded the 2200 hp unconscious limit the character is dead.It would also be nice where resurrection a large amount of mana and was time consuming. So it would be uncommon to be used in battle. Other options:Maybe a mass (aoe) instant resurrection that would consume 100% of a characters mana and be on a 4 hour timer.
I like this. I like having an action pool, which, when drained leaves you defenseless or even KOd. Maybe they have to get you to drain your action and health to kill you?
I really have no taste for death modes, plays, anythings. I have seen a few games add a death mini game, not for me. I just want to pop back alive so I can get into the action again.
Originally posted by Xobdnas
...I just want to pop back alive so I can get into the action again.
then why bother having death at all. Death should be THE WORST thing that could happen to you.. you should dread and fear it.
Originally posted by meddyck No downed state. You die when your hits hit 0 then you either get rezzed or release. Some form of RvR sickness like DAOC had is fine. This was a debuff that could stack up to 3 times and slowed your movement speed and halved the effectiveness of your damage and healing spells. There was a ML ability that could cure it. Otherwise you just waited until it expired. I don't like systems like you see in many MMOs where your armor takes damage when you release so if you are getting a zerged a lot on a given day, you end up paying a lot to repair your gear.
I liked the DAOC way too. There were consequences for dying and you did your best not to die as much as possible lol.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMkDark Age of Camelot
I think they mentioned one major thing when you die: you are removed from combat area for a reasonable amount of time. This is so one side can "win" and take an objective, rather than having the loser simply respawn and be back fighting the winners very quickly.
Now, that might mean you spawn back at the beginning and have travel time. It also might mean that you have a serious debuff that affects your movement and abilities, or some combination thereof.
I highly doubt you'll get corpse looting. However, the winners can determine what to do with any structures you have built. They can take it or destroy it.
Originally posted by TribeofOne Originally posted by Xobdnas ...I just want to pop back alive so I can get into the action again.
I didn't mean I don't want consequences, with no consequence the game has no meaning. I meant I don't like the mini games, I just want to take my loss, whatever it is, reload and get playing again without having to run around in a death world doing mini game stuff.
Originally posted by Xobdnas Originally posted by TribeofOne Originally posted by Xobdnas ...I just want to pop back alive so I can get into the action again.
"..Creativity, Innovation, Evolution"
how is that any of these things?
I understand why the GW2 downed system can be frustrating to the attacker, but...
-puts on flame suit-
I actually really like it. I know, personally, a lot of key mashing and butt cheek flexing goes one when I get downed.
Maybe instead of draining their HP, THEN downing them, the last 10% of their health bar could be a downed state, similar to the movement speed debuff at lower health in DAoC?
Currently playing: GW2 (Maguuma), DAoC (Uthgard), & AionWaiting For / Watching: TUG, CU, Black Desert, Archeage,Wildstar, and ESO.
Originally posted by Xobdnas Originally posted by redcapp FWIW, I can not STAND the GW2 system. You shouldn't have to stand there wasting time trying to kill someone you already killed or risk them just getting back up and getting back into the fight with minimal consequences. Ugh. Make it harder for them to die in the first place or something instead.
I like finishers, Darkfall has some fun finishers that changed with the weapon you had in hand.
And it was the 'gank' skill.. Which is terribly childish to call it that.
No, players should just die. They should either have to get rez'd or release to their bind location. They should take a small debuff to their skills and attributes and run their asses back to the spot that they died to either remove the debuff, regain lost XP, or get their gear back if it hasn't been looted yet, depending on the loot system or if you were killed by a NPC or player of course.
There should be consequence, and from reading a little bit on their KS page, I'm sure there will be. I personally don't think the game will be all that successful, simply because it is going to be a PvP game. But, hopefully it releases and makes a few people happy. Good games are always welcome, even if I'm not interested in them.
Originally posted by grvmpybear I understand why the GW2 downed system can be frustrating to the attacker, but... -puts on flame suit- I actually really like it. I know, personally, a lot of key mashing and butt cheek flexing goes one when I get downed. Maybe instead of draining their HP, THEN downing them, the last 10% of their health bar could be a downed state, similar to the movement speed debuff at lower health in DAoC?
Defiance does this mechanic pretty well. If you die, you get to crawl around in a downed state. So you can move to safety, potentially, and then self revive. I don't really like the self-revive in a PvP game though, but it works in Defiance. The crawling mechanic is pretty cool.
I think DAOC style rez-debuff + removal from the immediate battle area is the best solution.
But I'ld like to see equipment durability/condition decay be the result of normal combat rather than part of the death penalty. It gives another reason for crafters to be IN the battle zone....
Originally posted by TribeofOne Originally posted by Xobdnas
...I just want to pop back alive so I can get into the action again.
and that wont happen, MJ has mentionned it somewhere (sorry i dont have the source of it).
but that is part of the reason why he doenst want lots of fast travels/teleportation.
dying then be able to get right back into the action is wrong for a mmo where strategy will play an important part.
i assume there will be resurrection sickness a la DAoC, plus maybe something else too.
Death should mean something, have impact. not just a 30 second delay, you want battle to make sense, and to end eventually, because RvR isnt PvP...there are objectives behind many battles, and XP isnt a realm objective.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoCThurka on WAR
Originally posted by TribeofOne Originally posted by Xobdnas Originally posted by TribeofOne Originally posted by Xobdnas ...I just want to pop back alive so I can get into the action again.
Just because I believe those things doesn't mean I always posses them, hence making a forum post to get other people to throw in ideas that are better than my own on this one. Perhaps I'll add humility to my other 3?
@BowBow I agree. If you could just zip back in the fight means less and becomes redundant. It should be you die, you are removed from that battle and must regather yourself.
Originally posted by Xobdnas So, what are some ideas/opinions on death? It's RVR so we will all be spending lots of time dying. What should happen? Lemme break it down. 1. How do we die, when our pool is out or do we go into a GW downed type state. I like the GW system, I'd like it more if we had more death blow animations. 2. Ok, were dead, now what? 3. Any consequences of dying?
1) Over time our DNA replication becomes more and more imperfect, causing our cells to malfunction, and eventually our organs fail.
2) I guess that depends on your religion?
3) For you, it's all over. For your heirs, the fun just begins.
OK, now seriously.
1) I think game mechanics-wise whether you die or become unconcious makes no difference to the opponent, unless being unconcious means you will eventually wake up on your own, or just anyone can revive you. As long as only healers can bring you back into the game, you can call it unconsciousness if you want. If you do it that way, you should lose hit points over time automatically (and by your foes hitting you) until you reach a second threashold, at which point you auto-release, i.e. if your enemies continue to hit you, your release timer ticks faster.
2) Before you went out into PvP you chose a respawn location (in an area controlled by your realm). If no healer survived to rez you (in time) you end up where ever that respawn point is, and have to make your way back to the zerg. The way it was in DAoC, basically.
3) Before you went out into a dangerous area, you deposited anything you didn't want to lose (and couldn't equip, including gold) in a safe storage area. When you die, a certain amount of the stuff you were carrying (e.g. 10% - 25% of the gold and economic resources, one random piece of equipment, if any was not equiped) is available for looting. Equipment you are wearing is immune to this. If a member of your own realm loots your body, it is returned to you even if you were forced to release without a rez. If a member of an opposing realm loots your body, the loot is distributed among them and their allies just like loot drops in other games, except that each type of loot (gold, each different resource, and the random item, if one) must be clicked through in order to claim them (and the confirmation button moves randomly around the screen for looting), absolutely NO auto-looting. This way, if your enemy is greedy and tries to loot you during battle, they are busy clicking through your stuff while your friends kill them. Finally, once you are back alive, you suffer a "hunger" debuff. The debuff stacks up to nine times and causes you to lose 10% of all your max stats each. Different kinds of food can remove one (or more) debuffs depending on its quality, this is the only way to remove it, and it is made from resources found in the RvR zones, so you want to control an area it can be found. Equipment loses durability from use, not death, as that would be unsustainable for a disadvantaged realm (food, while not free, would be available in a sufficient number of places to make it unlikely any realm would go completely without).
Cool. Everyone has probably seen it already, but MJ posted the answer to this in today's Update 11:
7) What’s the death penalty going to be like in Camelot Unchained?
For battles to be meaningful, I believe that Camelot Unchained needs to have a death penalty that stings a little bit. No perma-death, no corpse looting (there are rewards but that is complicated) but also - no instant rez (rez takes time), no self-rez (even for healers), dead = dead, when dead your body can be burned/magically attacked by the enemy (takes time) or you can release, no item decay on death (use/enemy attack based only), limited bind points (there is a healer + crafter mechanic that can come into play), “rez sickness” like mechanic and last but not least divine intervention