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Dispelling the 'easy' myth

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  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by fivoroth

    Originally posted by Phelcher Can anyone explain to me, how an over commercailized (nowhere near as good as the orivinal) Dioblo3 has any bearing on MMORPG's... It was an arcade game. Far different than what is ArcheAge EQNext, or other mmorpgs. If someone constantly references WoW.. it is bcuz it's all he knows...
    The EQ fanboys are more annoying because for some reason they think that they are superior to the WoW fanboys and they are not :D 


    Initially I thought, hey I don't think that way at all. Then I did the math. A 12 year old can do quite well in Vanilla WoW. A 12 year old would have quite a hard time in Everquest.

    You don't know some of the 12-year olds that I do.  Let's not make ageist generalizations here; even if they are mostly true, they're still rather dismissive to the outliers who deserve better.

    That aside: I seem to recall, back when EQ was the "big game" and seeing flamewars between tje EQ and UO fanboys, that the EQ players *at that time* sounded a lot like the WoW players do today.  Among other things, they loved to cite how the relative popularity of their preferred game was defacto proof that it was a better game.  (Logic that would suggest WoW is in fact strictly superior to every other MMO, and that Farmville was the best game ever made.)

    Of course, back then I was a UO fan myself so I'm *probably* a little biased in my recollection.

  • fivorothfivoroth LondonPosts: 3,661Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by fivoroth

    Originally posted by Phelcher Can anyone explain to me, how an over commercailized (nowhere near as good as the orivinal) Dioblo3 has any bearing on MMORPG's... It was an arcade game. Far different than what is ArcheAge EQNext, or other mmorpgs. If someone constantly references WoW.. it is bcuz it's all he knows...
    The EQ fanboys are more annoying because for some reason they think that they are superior to the WoW fanboys and they are not :D 

     


    Initially I thought, hey I don't think that way at all. Then I did the math. A 12 year old can do quite well in Vanilla WoW. A 12 year old would have quite a hard time in Everquest.

    If by 'superior' you mean more skilled or increased cognitive ability, then yes the average EQ player *was* superior to the average WoW player. Outliers of course exist.

    But, those WoW 12 year olds are now very capable adults so that cliche no longer applies.

    I don't know if people who play EQ are more skilled or have increased cognitive ability. It is extremely difficult to make such generalisations and also if you look at WoW's PvP it does require skill and cognitive ability more so than most of the stuff in EQ. But  from what I have seen most EQ players base their comparisons solely on the leveling experience. EQ leveling more difficult than WoW's leveling (presumably) and so EQ is more difficult. That's how the logic seems to go, completely ignoring the fact that WoW's raids and PvP (especially WoW's PvP but then again EQ never actually had PvP :D) may actually require more skill.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,758Member Uncommon
    As to posts about what MMO's 12 year olds would struggle with. Remember we had the hard ones first. If I had played GW2 first then tried EQ when I was 12, I think I could get lost as to the complexity and difficulty.
  • FonclFoncl UppsalaPosts: 197Member

    Easy, accessible, low skill floor, low skill ceiling, convenient is what sells alot of copies these days from my perspective. The best example I can think of is the FPS genre. I grew up playing Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Heretic, Unreal Tournament and similar games, those games are very challenging and new players have no chance against experienced players in multiplayer because of the high skill ceiling.

     

    Games like Quake and Unreal Tournament have advanced movement mechanics and physics that take years to learn well but are very fun and rewarding if you put in the effort to improve, just moving around in those games is alot of fun once you learn the basics. FPS games with advanced movement are simply not made today since they don't sell well enough, the FPS genre is huge but people want games which are easy to learn and where you have a better chance of killing experienced players like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Halo etc.

     

    If I grew up today I would likely be playing the easier and more accessible games aswell but back when I grew up those didn't exist so I spent years trying to get good at very challenging games. For me challenging and complex games which take some effort getting into are always the most rewarding ones long term but unfortunately for me it doesn't seem to be the types of games that do well at the moment :/

  • AlkozathAlkozath MölndalPosts: 37Member

    to OP, nice set of statistic their using there, where the statistic telling us how many tried the different difficulties and why they didnt finish ?

     

    yes the statistic only tells us how many of the total amounth of players that finished it and nothing else, whats intresting for me is the one that didnt. did they stop because it was to hard and got frustrated, to easy and they got bored, or just that it wasent compellng enough to keep trying ? why just that difficulty setting and not the others ? they wanted to roll though to see it all or was the game really not that intresting to start with ?, and so on, there is to many questions left unanswered to draw any conclusion from it, and if you do your not trying enough and your company is going down the drain tbh.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Foncl

    Easy, accessible, low skill floor, low skill ceiling, convenient is what sells alot of copies these days from my perspective. The best example I can think of is the FPS genre. I grew up playing Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Heretic, Unreal Tournament and similar games, those games are very challenging and new players have no chance against experienced players in multiplayer because of the high skill ceiling.

     

    Games like Quake and Unreal Tournament have advanced movement mechanics and physics that take years to learn well but are very fun and rewarding if you put in the effort to improve, just moving around in those games is alot of fun once you learn the basics. FPS games with advanced movement are simply not made today since they don't sell well enough, the FPS genre is huge but people want games which are easy to learn and where you have a better chance of killing experienced players like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Halo etc.

     

    If I grew up today I would likely be playing the easier and more accessible games aswell but back when I grew up those didn't exist so I spent years trying to get good at very challenging games. For me challenging and complex games which take some effort getting into are always the most rewarding ones long term but unfortunately for me it doesn't seem to be the types of games that do well at the moment :/

    You are talking about PvP or PvE? PvP is always challenging .. just because the opponent is a human.

    PvE ... well .. there are difficulty option in FPS. I heard that, for example, Bioshock Infinite is really tough at the most difficult setting.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Alkozath

    to OP, nice set of statistic their using there, where the statistic telling us how many tried the different difficulties and why they didnt finish ?

     

    yes the statistic only tells us how many of the total amounth of players that finished it and nothing else, whats intresting for me is the one that didnt. did they stop because it was to hard and got frustrated, to easy and they got bored, or just that it wasent compellng enough to keep trying ? why just that difficulty setting and not the others ? they wanted to roll though to see it all or was the game really not that intresting to start with ?, and so on, there is to many questions left unanswered to draw any conclusion from it, and if you do your not trying enough and your company is going down the drain tbh.

    Well, if more players finish the easy-mode than the hard mode, the conclusion is pretty straight forward .. they choose to play through easy, rather than hard for what-ever reason.

    In this case, i doubt they don't play through hard mode because it is too easy ... because obviously they want to go through the content (in easy mode).

    And the fact that more players go through the content when there are difficulty options say something.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,231Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.

    If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...

     

    good point this

    or the devs are doing something right :)

     

     

    sure, talking of WoW (as example), lfr is easy. that's why it's there. to offer people an easy way to see the content.

    as i said before on other threads tho, that's not what WoW is about.

     

     

    wanna play it for real? try to build a team (of friends) and clear the "normal" difficulty.

    should be hard enough for the casual gamer.

     

    you don't "just" play casual? you are "pro"? raiding 5 days a week?

    set it on HC, and there is your challange.

     

     

     

    if you are running a game for several million people, you DO need to differ. you DO need to give all those options.

    * just giving the easy option? people won't play for long.

    * just giving the normal option? you lose a small ammount of players, who neither have the time nor the passion to complete the normal raids. maybe they have a family, work, or whatever

    * just give em the hc option? well, you'd lose all but about 5% of your player base

     

    ghostcrawler on that topic:

    How about making wow more like an amusement park, where there's a little bit of everything & you CHOOSE what you want to do?
    In WoW, players tend to just pick whatever has the shortest line, not what is the most fun (and then get grumpy about that fact). (Source)

     

     

    i am playing WoW since it's release now, did a minor break now and then, but MY guild is still running and raiding. we are working on our "normal" progress and are having fun while doing so. we aren't amongst the best 3 of our server, nor doing first kills. but that's not what games are about.

    in shooters (deathmatch), there is ONE person winning, people still play it tho. does the rest complain it's too hard? does #1 go for "this game is to easy man!"

     

     

    i'd say if you are still having fun after nearly a decade of playing the same game...

     

    YOU ARE DOING IT RIGHT!

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    To people who say that most people would choose the easy route, not necessarily.

    In CoH, by far the most common grouping method (at least of the ones that I was in) was to play at the hardest setting (and not just architect missions, after the first year or so and nerfs of that, that was the least effective way to level).

    Now it may just be because with a full group and highest difficulty, that was the most effective way to level, which it was but it was still the hardest setting.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    I actually don't believe that people choose the easiest route.  As with most things they choose the most efficient route, which in many games is the same thing as the easiest route but not always.  It is always the quickest route to the goal.  If that means playing at the hardest setting they will do that if they get their goal quicker. 

    edit - A small change.  I think the most efficient way is a balance between easiest and quickest.  In RL it is getting the most product with the least energy input.  Getting there quickly may take more energy than doing it slower, conversely doing it slower may take more energy than doing it quickly.

    People will group up if the rewards are better (which they allready are), if it is easy to do (which it allready is) and if they want to (debatable).  This may be why lfg is the most common way to level in WoW these days.

    If there was a way to alter the dungeons at early levels for difficulty settings I think many/most would alter the difficulty. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon
    Venge

    I agree and in most cases with MMOs the easiest is the most effective. I think the objection to that is the point of some of us, including me. I wish all MMOs had leveling (or progressing) like CoX, it makes the most sense and fosters the most amount of interaction possible. Unfortunately it's not the norm right now though I think it will be to up retention.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Venge

    I agree and in most cases with MMOs the easiest is the most effective. I think the objection to that is the point of some of us, including me. I wish all MMOs had leveling (or progressing) like CoX, it makes the most sense and fosters the most amount of interaction possible. Unfortunately it's not the norm right now though I think it will be to up retention.

    The norm of leveling in WOW involves LFD .. so there is a lot of interaction .. but it is easy.

    What i would like to see .. is difficulty level in leveling .. with adjustment of xp gain. Basically D3's MP model.

     

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    To people who say that most people would choose the easy route, not necessarily...


    Think so? If an MMO existed where players could, at any time, change their xp multipler (x1, x2, x4), you can bet 100% of players would choose x4.



    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    ...That aside: I seem to recall, back when EQ was the "big game" and seeing flamewars between tje EQ and UO fanboys, that the EQ players *at that time* sounded a lot like the WoW players do today...


    ROFL you are absolutely correct. EQ was much easier than UO on many levels. Hah. Looks like I am the pot calling the kettle black.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • f1sebf1seb Copiague, NYPosts: 192Member Uncommon

    I have a friend who is a gamer.  He is the type that if a game kicks his ass he screams and yells at the top of his lungs (28 years old.)  He plays games on easy difficulty constantly.  This is how he describes it to me:

    "I don't want to sit there figuring out calculus and physics equations to get through the game, I just want to grab my controller hit play and enjoy the game."

    Never in my life had I seen a game ask me to do any of such things.  I know that some people like to figure out the perfect rotation of spells in MMO's and such, but that's about it, and I've never done any of that stuff myself.

    This causes him to beat games  insanely fast, at least in my opinion.  I think he was done with Tomb Raider in 2 days or so.  If I had gotten through a game that fast I'd consider it a crappy product and certainly not worth 65 dollars.

    He tried WoW 3.3.5a and was getting owned by mobs left and right.  I told him to read about the spells he gets, and to watch his mana pool. To prove my point  I sat down in his spot, and to his disbelief I  killed the same mobs that were giving him a hard time.  He threw his hands up in the air and said:

    "This game is gay it's too much work!!"

    I try to go out of my way not to play games with him online cause what bothers me is not that he's bad at mmo's.  It's that he wouldn't even learn how to play it.  Again he used the calculus and physics line.  We tried DOTA 2 not too long ago, I'm sure you guys can derive of what happened immediately in the 1st 5 minutes.

  • tupodawg999tupodawg999 LondonPosts: 724Member Uncommon
    All the people using raids and instances as examples of why the games aren't too easy are effectively agreeing that the levelling part is too easy - which is the important point for people who like the levelling game.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    To people who say that most people would choose the easy route, not necessarily...

     


    Think so? If an MMO existed where players could, at any time, change their xp multipler (x1, x2, x4), you can bet 100% of players would choose x4.

     

     



     

    Well that woudl be the most efficient route to their goal wouldn't it?

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    I actually don't believe that people choose the easiest route.  As with most things they choose the most efficient route, which in many games is the same thing as the easiest route but not always.  It is always the quickest route to the goal.  If that means playing at the hardest setting they will do that if they get their goal quicker. 

    edit - A small change.  I think the most efficient way is a balance between easiest and quickest.  In RL it is getting the most product with the least energy input.  Getting there quickly may take more energy than doing it slower, conversely doing it slower may take more energy than doing it quickly.

    People will group up if the rewards are better (which they allready are), if it is easy to do (which it allready is) and if they want to (debatable).  This may be why lfg is the most common way to level in WoW these days.

    If there was a way to alter the dungeons at early levels for difficulty settings I think many/most would alter the difficulty. 

     

     

    The route that is the easiest is by far the most efficient in all games. I am not saying there are no exceptions, but your example was a rare one. Also as modern MMO's have become and still are becoming more easymode, that route is becoming easier to spot. Indeed you don't so much have to spot it as fall into it as you take your first steps.

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member
    Good challenge is fun easy is boring, nuff said.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by f1seb

     

    "I don't want to sit there figuring out calculus and physics equations to get through the game, I just want to grab my controller hit play and enjoy the game."

    Never in my life had I seen a game ask me to do any of such things.  I know that some people like to figure out the perfect rotation of spells in MMO's and such, but that's about it, and I've never done any of that stuff myself.

    This causes him to beat games  insanely fast, at least in my opinion.  I think he was done with Tomb Raider in 2 days or so.  If I had gotten through a game that fast I'd consider it a crappy product and certainly not worth 65 dollars.

    You never seen theorycrafting? Even in WOW, stochastic programming has been used to figure out optimal gear/gem/reforge choices in software like RAWR. You have never made a DPS spreadsheet? Many people do.

    And why is a 2-day game crappy? You are equating quality with quantity.

    I played WOW for years. I played Bioshock Infintie for a week (not as fast as you friend but still quite fast). BI is a very fun game ... i don't see how a game is better just because it is longer. BI is in no way, less fun than WOW, and probably a lot more so.

    Is it a bad product just because it is shorter? No in my books.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by f1seb

     

    "I don't want to sit there figuring out calculus and physics equations to get through the game, I just want to grab my controller hit play and enjoy the game."

    Never in my life had I seen a game ask me to do any of such things.  I know that some people like to figure out the perfect rotation of spells in MMO's and such, but that's about it, and I've never done any of that stuff myself.

    This causes him to beat games  insanely fast, at least in my opinion.  I think he was done with Tomb Raider in 2 days or so.  If I had gotten through a game that fast I'd consider it a crappy product and certainly not worth 65 dollars.

    You never seen theorycrafting? Even in WOW, stochastic programming has been used to figure out optimal gear/gem/reforge choices in software like RAWR. You have never made a DPS spreadsheet? Many people do.

    And why is a 2-day game crappy? You are equating quality with quantity.

    I played WOW for years. I played Bioshock Infintie for a week (not as fast as you friend but still quite fast). BI is a very fun game ... i don't see how a game is better just because it is longer. BI is in no way, less fun than WOW, and probably a lot more so.

    Is it a bad product just because it is shorter? No in my books.

     

     

    Old news...

     

    After years of that, one realizes that min/max is only for games where the Dev's have lost sight of their game... and decided to make an upward game, instead of an outward one. So it becomes about items & trinkets...

    Something you are obsessed with, because you have limited time playing.  We know you started gaming with WoW..    but in EQ, it was the PLAYERS themselves that mattered. One wrong loaded spell and entire guild went down on a raid..  that is the kind of challenge/perfection you are afraid of & why you will get up in a middle of a raid and leave, because your wifed called you.

    You play these as arcade 3rdPS..

     

    Like someone else said:   why you still here..  you have claimed over a hundred times now... that you are not a MMORPG player.

     

     

    BTW..   All games are easy right now. The reason millions of MMORPG fans have pulled out of their subs... waiting for all these kiddie mmo to die out. Adults do not have an issue with $15/month for their hobby.

    EQ got easier & lost subs, all these old games that saw in 2005 WoW's revenues changed their games to pull-in some of those people. Essentially, these Devs ruined several of the best games on the market, in persuance of 14~16 year olds trampling WoW..  with their parent fueling it because the internet was so "new" to the family, etc.

     

     

    Bottom line, games today are easy...   and if a game has a "mode" then it is arcade, by virtue of offering an option, thus easy.. derp!

     

     

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Phelcher

    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    You never seen theorycrafting? Even in WOW, stochastic programming has been used to figure out optimal gear/gem/reforge choices in software like RAWR. You have never made a DPS spreadsheet? Many people do. And why is a 2-day game crappy? You are equating quality with quantity. I played WOW for years. I played Bioshock Infintie for a week (not as fast as you friend but still quite fast). BI is a very fun game ... i don't see how a game is better just because it is longer. BI is in no way, less fun than WOW, and probably a lot more so. Is it a bad product just because it is shorter? No in my books.

    ...


    You play these as arcade 3rdPS..


    Like someone else said: why you still here.. you have claimed over a hundred times now... that you are not a MMORPG player.


    Hmm, Phelcher makes a good point.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Phelcher

    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    You never seen theorycrafting? Even in WOW, stochastic programming has been used to figure out optimal gear/gem/reforge choices in software like RAWR. You have never made a DPS spreadsheet? Many people do. And why is a 2-day game crappy? You are equating quality with quantity. I played WOW for years. I played Bioshock Infintie for a week (not as fast as you friend but still quite fast). BI is a very fun game ... i don't see how a game is better just because it is longer. BI is in no way, less fun than WOW, and probably a lot more so. Is it a bad product just because it is shorter? No in my books.


     

     

    ...


    You play these as arcade 3rdPS..


    Like someone else said: why you still here.. you have claimed over a hundred times now... that you are not a MMORPG player.

     

     


     

     

    Hmm, Phelcher makes a good point.

    Because MMORPG can be played solo, like lobby games, and if MMO devs make games i like (like STO story mission), is there a reason why i should not play them, or talk about them?

     

  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member

    The few times  I have called WoW easy, it was simply because I could breeze 90% of the solo content and quite a bit of the small group content as solo without having to think about what I was doing. Stuff just fell over dead as soon as it was hit.. 

    I blasted through lower level dungeons. And in case there was a bit of a challenge and I didnt quite kill the boss in the first go, the reward would have been useless after a second go. Or it would be stupidly rare and I would have to run the same dungeon 100s of  times over to even smell the chance of it dropping, let alone win the loot roll. That being the only reward for going..... no xp next to no cash and worthless loot.

    And since  WoW and other games since it are 90% soloable and easily so, when you do get to what looks like a challenge, the real challenge is in trying to organize soloers into a group or raid.... all the while spamming skills... And when there is next to no penalty for faliure, except time already spent, some of them wont care to work with the team... Especially since its unlikely they will have to team up with the rest of the raid again. This also makes them act like douches...

  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member

    And another thing... 

    In modern easy games, mobs are tethered to a small area.

    There is no Crowd Control to speak of, other than aggro.

    Every class can solo with ease and no downtime.

    Thousands of solo quests.

    And free teleports to the dungeon.

    Instanced dungeons/zones.

    All letting people solo all they want and making it stupid to team up for anything at all outside of the endgame.

    And the reason I dont have all those "hardmode" unlocks? Same reason I was never the fastest paperboy in my area... its a mundane job and Im not going to exert myself doing it.. and as soon as something else comes along Im getting the hell out.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by WW4BW

    And another thing... 

    In modern easy games, mobs are tethered to a small area.

    There is no Crowd Control to speak of, other than aggro.

    Every class can solo with ease and no downtime.

    Thousands of solo quests.

    And free teleports to the dungeon.

    Teleport has nothing to do with challenge. Flying to a dungeon is easy and boring.

    Instanced dungeons/zones.

    Instanced has nothing to do with challenge. In fact, the most difficult content is in instances.

    All letting people solo all they want and making it stupid to team up for anything at all outside of the endgame.

    And the reason I dont have all those "hardmode" unlocks? Same reason I was never the fastest paperboy in my area... its a mundane job and Im not going to exert myself doing it.. and as soon as something else comes along Im getting the hell out.

    You don't like it does not equate to no challenge. Any why do you move to the next thing, presumbly easy leveling, than play challenging end-game? Is it because you don't want challenge at all?

     

     

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