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People need to realise this.

135

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  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by jonahenry
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by jonahenry

    Steve Jobs did not stay the same. The first round at Apple he and Wozniack created whatever they darn well pleased and forced it on to the world. The second round at Apple they listened to what people wanted and then delivered on those expectations.

    Since you're likely not aware, Jobs refused to allow third party creation of apps for the original iPhone until enough people demanded it from him that he had no choice. Mark Jacobs is refusing to develop this game unless there are enough people pledging interest via Kickstarter.

    Rather than trying to force some subpar product on the world, the team at CSE is at least trying to determine how much interest there is in such a project. So what in the world is wrong with that?

    Incorrect. The only way they would take Jobs back at Apple was in a NON-DIRECT CEO role, he would have NO I REPEAT NO Direct control over any department at all because he REMAINED an egotistical powermonger that treated people under him like crap.

    As for allowing third party apps, that was STARTED before Jobs came back and HAD to be done because Apple was hurting big and needed a boost.

    You seem hell bent on trying to equate Jacobs to Jobs...lol...do you work for him? that last sentence sounded like it. Pure 100% hyped up BS. There isnt even a product for you to see yet somehow, its magically already not "sub-par".

     

    I am a marketing consultant and venture capitalist. Is there something factually wrong with the statement that CSE is trying to gauge how much interest there is in the concept before going through with it? I've asked a few times what is wrong with CSE's approach and you've failed to do anything except argue about Apple. 

    I would much rather prefer a company try to listen to the people that will actually use their product than try to follow the industry norm.  CSE is also  in a better position as a startup company than about 90% of people I've worked with in the business world in that they actually have principles they intend to develop by --- even if  some  prove to be bad or you don't agree with them. 

    The whole point of Kickstarter is to "kickstart" a project and generate interest, not deliver a finished product the day it is funded. Just because no other major studio has done it this way doesn't mean it will fail miserably. Plenty of AAA MMO's have come out without the aid of Kickstarter and about the same number have failed miserably.

    You seem competent enough to develop your own hype-free MMO however, so please keep us informed as to your progress with that, okay?

     

    I am the pope, your argument is invalid? Seriously...

     

    Want to throw any other redherrings out there to attempt to derail what is being said? Not a single thing you posted is related to anything we have been saying. But by all means, reply to this with another long winded explaination about...say, why cabbage is green to show why your correlation between Jacobs and Jobs was correct.

    Anyway, Jacobs first game is all he has, the last 12+ years he has shown no ability to make a great game and no, Jobs and Jacobs are not on the same level nor can they be correlated no matter distractiont tactic you wish to use.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • NcrediblebulkNcrediblebulk San Marcos, TXPosts: 137Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by jonahenry
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by jonahenry
     

     

    Anyway, Jacobs first game is all he has, the last 12+ years he has shown no ability to make a great game and no, Jobs and Jacobs are not on the same level nor can they be correlated no matter distractiont tactic you wish to use.

    You state this like it's fact. Why is his first game all he has? I believe he made games prior to Daoc and Warhammer. Daoc started very similar to how CU is trying to start. Publisher and IP influence free, or at least much less so when it came to Warhammer. Warhammer did get some things right. Mainly PQs which have almost become a standard in the market today. I feel your definition of great is far different than others. To me it seems your distaste for Mark is greater than the idea of this game.

    "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  • tauraktaurak rock cave, WVPosts: 174Member

    I'm not trying to bash the complainers or anything guys.

     

    And I'm not tryign to make this game out to sound like something that its not.

     

    Just in a very real perspective, this is the number one prospect game for PvP. The ONLY game right now in development with even a CHANCE to have good PvP.

    Don't tell me TESO is going to have good PvP, its going to be instanced carebear stuff just like WoW. Its all been done before, except the skyrim combat system, which really, who cares if its got cool combat if we're just forced into instance queues again. I am so tired of standing in  a city, waiting for a dumb queue, just to play the exact same scenario every single time, nothign changes.

    Its not like you can go into "warsong gulch" and expect a different thing to happen each time. Hell no, someone grabs the flag, and hides with 3-4 healers every game. Nothing different. Who cares that you get a new sword, what are you going to use it on? The same thing over and over...

    If I am wrong please do correct me, I've been looking for a game like this to be made for many many years. Whether or not the developer is Mark Jacobs, EA, Blizzard, SoE, or anyone else doesn't have a lot of relevance in my oppinion.

    They have a solid team that are very capable of making a technically sound, smooth, playable game, with an excellent concept.

    The Concept itself is what makes this game what it is, and what it could be, and I'm very willing to take a risk on it, simply because the future, as far as PvP games are concerned, looks very very grim. And these guys dont have a publisher breathing down their necks to tell them, oh this has to be changed so we can grab more subs.

    We the kickstarter funders, are the publisher, and if we all speak otu that somethign about the game sucks then I am very sure it will get changed. They are makign a game to please us, not to make EA's business model work, and make their pockets fat.

    Maybe it'll flop, maybe it will come out and be an utter failure like Warhammer, but you take a chance every time you purchase a game.

    Even if you see 100 gameplay videos on you tube, you'll never know if you like the game or not until you play it for yourself.

    Take modern warfare 3 for example. Gameplay videos look awesome, and so much fun, then you play the game and see how much it totally sucks. Same for battlefield 3, waorld of warcraft, and many others, yet we ALL preordered them, because we're bored and want a cool game to play, and we take that gamble.

  • jonahenryjonahenry Knoxville, TNPosts: 12Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by jonahenry
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by jonahenry

    Steve Jobs did not stay the same. The first round at Apple he and Wozniack created whatever they darn well pleased and forced it on to the world. The second round at Apple they listened to what people wanted and then delivered on those expectations.

    Since you're likely not aware, Jobs refused to allow third party creation of apps for the original iPhone until enough people demanded it from him that he had no choice. Mark Jacobs is refusing to develop this game unless there are enough people pledging interest via Kickstarter.

    Rather than trying to force some subpar product on the world, the team at CSE is at least trying to determine how much interest there is in such a project. So what in the world is wrong with that?

    Incorrect. The only way they would take Jobs back at Apple was in a NON-DIRECT CEO role, he would have NO I REPEAT NO Direct control over any department at all because he REMAINED an egotistical powermonger that treated people under him like crap.

    As for allowing third party apps, that was STARTED before Jobs came back and HAD to be done because Apple was hurting big and needed a boost.

    You seem hell bent on trying to equate Jacobs to Jobs...lol...do you work for him? that last sentence sounded like it. Pure 100% hyped up BS. There isnt even a product for you to see yet somehow, its magically already not "sub-par".

     

    I am a marketing consultant and venture capitalist. Is there something factually wrong with the statement that CSE is trying to gauge how much interest there is in the concept before going through with it? I've asked a few times what is wrong with CSE's approach and you've failed to do anything except argue about Apple. 

    I would much rather prefer a company try to listen to the people that will actually use their product than try to follow the industry norm.  CSE is also  in a better position as a startup company than about 90% of people I've worked with in the business world in that they actually have principles they intend to develop by --- even if  some  prove to be bad or you don't agree with them. 

    The whole point of Kickstarter is to "kickstart" a project and generate interest, not deliver a finished product the day it is funded. Just because no other major studio has done it this way doesn't mean it will fail miserably. Plenty of AAA MMO's have come out without the aid of Kickstarter and about the same number have failed miserably.

    You seem competent enough to develop your own hype-free MMO however, so please keep us informed as to your progress with that, okay?

     

    I am the pope, your argument is invalid? Seriously...

     

    Want to throw any other redherrings out there to attempt to derail what is being said? Not a single thing you posted is related to anything we have been saying. But by all means, reply to this with another long winded explaination about...say, why cabbage is green to show why your correlation between Jacobs and Jobs was correct.

    Anyway, Jacobs first game is all he has, the last 12+ years he has shown no ability to make a great game and no, Jobs and Jacobs are not on the same level nor can they be correlated no matter distractiont tactic you wish to use.

    You asked if I worked for CSE, I answered your quesiton and merely asked what is wrong with the way CSE is attempting to build this game and you bring in the Pope and tell me that *I* bring in red herrings and distraction tactics? Nice. Your argument is based off the fact that 1. Mark Jacobs made one great game and 2. Mark Jacobs hasn't made a great game since. How does this negatively affect trying to determine the interest in this type of game via Kickstarter?

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member

    @jonahenry and Ncrediblebulk

    You both are getting trolled.  Don't feed the trolls.  The fact jtcgs believes Mark Jacob's first game was Dark Age of Camelot should be enough to /lol all the way to the ignore list.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by jonahenry

    You asked if I worked for CSE, I answered your quesiton and merely asked what is wrong with the way CSE is attempting to build this game and you bring in the Pope and tell me that *I* bring in red herrings and distraction tactics? Nice. Your argument is based off the fact that 1. Mark Jacobs made one great game and 2. Mark Jacobs hasn't made a great game since. How does this negatively affect trying to determine the interest in this type of game via Kickstarter?

    I didnt ask if you worked for them, I said you SOUNDED like you did and at no point was "they way they are attempting to build the game" in question. That is something you threw out there after being backed into a corner over trying to draw comparisons to Jacobs and Jobs...something you are still avoiding by continuing yet ANOTHER red-herring.

    Defending Jacobs, via Jobs = invalid

    The entire basis of your responses. If you post once again with a red-herring and dont get back onto what I posted, I will take you for a troll and move on holding that my original posts stand true.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • TuktzTuktz Atlanta, GAPosts: 299Member

    Not just the pvp part, but also this project, as well as a few smaller ones the past few years, are trying to show big time / big money game companies that their house of cards isn't as strong as they think it is. They think they own the PC gaming market, and only what they approve for us players will get developed.

     

    Right now they're deciding the games for us, and designing them with profit in mind rather than enjoyability or sustainability in terms of gameplay. Games created by stockholders / VP's worried about bonuses, stock price, and pensions.

     

    A project like this succeeding will send a STRONG message to them that players are SICK of their BS, and are going to start taking matters into their own hands by crowdfunding gaming projects.

     

    Players want more control over the games that are getting released, not being told what to enjoy.

     

    viva la revolucion ! LOL

    image
    MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
    Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/

  • xSh0xxSh0x Scottsdale, AZPosts: 125Member
    Black Desert could easily be better.  And out well before CU.
  • IkonisIkonis Raleigh, ARPosts: 208Member Uncommon
    You can only trot out the same bs so many times.  Darkfall was supposed to be the pvp game we are supposed to support, then Mortal Online. Even heard it about Warhammer Onlines and Guld Wars 2 WvW. 
  • david06david06 Chantilly, VAPosts: 183Member

    It looks good.

    A lot of other MMORPGs are pretty bland with PvE being the focus.

    It's got a lot of promises that it has to deliver on.

    I'm only out $25.

    It feels good to see something funded without using a traditional publisher.

    So I don't see the reason for all the rage.

  • jdnewelljdnewell Spring Hill, TNPosts: 2,150Member Uncommon

    If the rabid fans posting a new CU topic every 5 minutes garners attention and it actually funds then so much the better.

    IMO it is a little much and I think its alot of hype over just an idea. But then again I for one am really hoping this gets off the ground, if spamming CU posts helps then.... Just dont read em I suppose.

    Not hurting anyone and its actually good to see people supporting a game not under the umbrella of bigwig corporations. I cant say I personally understand the hype tho. If they had more than an idea / concept I may be a bit more excited.

    And No I do not think CU funding or not funding will have any major impact either way. If the idea was so great and full of promise then KS would probably not be needed. Thats just my opinion tho.

  • david06david06 Chantilly, VAPosts: 183Member


    Originally posted by jdnewell
    And No I do not think CU funding or not funding will have any major impact either way. If the idea was so great and full of promise then KS would probably not be needed. Thats just my opinion tho.

    Major publishers are far from infallible.

    "They wanted it to be World War 2. Again," reveals Infinity Ward

    Crowdfunding has it's problems but good ideas by good people are getting the money they need. Patrons/customers are getting or are hopefully going to get a product that they want.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jonahenry

    Is there something factually wrong with the statement that CSE is trying to gauge how much interest there is in the concept before going through with it?

    1) Concept does not sell, implementation does. Those two are heaven and earth, especially when you have to rely on continuous revenue stream.

    2) You do not need pledging to provide similar data. Kickstarter isn't there to kickstart anything, it is a business like any other - in this case it makes money on gullible people.


    Venture capitalist...lol

  • TroianmanTroianman Somewhere, CAPosts: 82Member
    Originally posted by jdnewell

    If the rabid fans posting a new CU topic every 5 minutes garners attention and it actually funds then so much the better.

    IMO it is a little much and I think its alot of hype over just an idea. But then again I for one am really hoping this gets off the ground, if spamming CU posts helps then.... Just dont read em I suppose.

    Not hurting anyone and its actually good to see people supporting a game not under the umbrella of bigwig corporations. I cant say I personally understand the hype tho. If they had more than an idea / concept I may be a bit more excited.

    And No I do not think CU funding or not funding will have any major impact either way. If the idea was so great and full of promise then KS would probably not be needed. Thats just my opinion tho.

    Crowdfunding is all about the interested parties doing the majority of the promoting, so I definitely agree with you in that it's a good thing and not hurting anyone and it is always good to see support for titles from smaller studios not linked to large publishers.

    That said, I believe the hype is due to the rather large player base that DAoC has had over the years, in addition to the fans of titles that promised awesomeness but frittered out (Darkfall and Mortal Online as two examples that have already been used), as well as games that still have a solid following (EVE Online). All of which focused on PvP, though the player could choose whether or not they focused on PvP or used the sandbox to create their own niche as many have done with EVE. Basically there are a large number of people that want something new but familiar at the same time. Not saying that all players from all of these games will instantly back and then instantly subscribe to the game but that the hype of an MMORPG from a studio headed by Mark Jacobs without a major publisher or investors only interested in a return breathing down his neck is well deserved. He is an established name in MMOs (though some would argue for a negative reason), and a kickstarter MMO of this nature is automatically news.

    Finally I have a problem with the 2nd to last sentence. To state that the idea alone makes kickstarter unnecessary shows a misunderstanding of the idea behind crowdfunding in general. The power behind kickstarter is that the idea is solid, hence people support it but if it is not they don't, at least in general. By using kickstarter the devs/studio become tied to the backers (who in essence become the investors but without a monetary return) and responsible for nothing more than delivering a title that those supporters want, not a title/genre/subgame/set of features that a publisher wants, not a release date or a $ amount or a subscription #  that investors want. It allows a creator to get a sense of the interest in a specific project before they invest a large amount of time/effort/money only to find out there is no market but also to collect the additional funding necessary to truly bring this idea to life in the most appropriate way possible. In other words, if the idea alone is so great and full of promise it makes Kickstarter perfect.

  • GaoxinGaoxin BluhPosts: 196Member Uncommon
    what people also need to realise is that DAOC wasn't the holy fking grail of PvP. I played Anarchy Online back in 2001-2005 and I also tested DAOC. Guess what...it was as unbalanced as any other mmorpg out there. I played most of them since AO, I also played CS, Dota and SC2 in the competetive scene. Please, for whatever reason you do it, stop it already. It was most likely your first mmorpg back then and thats why you like it so much, not because it was balanced or had gread pvp.
  • dinamsdinams Muriae, VAPosts: 1,362Member

    I just want to say that

     

    When people go into the game forgetting that this will be indie quality

    I will be here...to quote words of the past....just lurking....like a troll....cackling

    "It has potential"
    -Second most used phrase on existence
    "It sucks"
    -Most used phrase on existence

  • jdnewelljdnewell Spring Hill, TNPosts: 2,150Member Uncommon
     In other words, if the idea alone is so great and full of promise it makes Kickstarter perfect.

    I disagree.

    And thats fine we have different opinions on the subject. I personally see KS as pretty much asking for a handout to help fund someone elses idea. Nothing wrong with that, but thats the way I see it. There are people and firms that have alot of money that these projects can be proposed to and funded by. And yes the company will be held to a timetable and expected to release a solid product thats profitable.

    With KS there is no such accountability.  IMO some accountability and timetable is a good thing. Right now you have an idea that may or may not work, no real timetable, and no real accountability. If they try and fail ( hopefully not) then they have delivered on all they have to with KS.

    But like I said. This is just my opinion. I am glad this project has fans and backers. High hopes it works out however that may be accomplished. =)

  • skyrekskyrek Woodstock, ILPosts: 45Member
    Well said Taurak
  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Troianman

    who in essence become the investors but without a monetary return

    You might want to look up what investor or investment terms mean...


    What about MMO development makes it so special business that devs should not be concerned about release schedule or financial viability of their business?


    I really wonder where people get this funny idea that world will be a better place to live when anyone can produce anything. It won't, it will turn the world into a junkyard because that is what vast majority people will make - junk.


    It is the invested money that put pressure to deliver what people will be willing to pay for, to return the money invested. That's the force driving innovation, technology and market forward.

    Crowdfunding dilutes this responsibility because devs get paid upfront regardless of result.

    It only promotes and support business with poor financial viability, if there is any.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by kakasaki
    Originally posted by jonahenry
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by taurak

    People really need to stop fighting and arguing and realise that this is pretty much our only shot at a good PvP game any time in the near future.

    Stop complaining about ToA and Warhammer, Mark knows they both sucked it up, and I am sure he knows how to fix and eliminate those issues in this new game.

    Will there be some problems in this game? Likely so, I'm sure there will be some things people don't like in the game, but I'm sure there will be a lot of things that people DO like too.

     

    Seriously guys, to all the trolls and naysayers, think about what you're doing. This is THE PvP game.

    "THE PvP game"

    Based on what? DaoC? 250k players and not all of them agree...and even then, ToA and Warhammer since...

    How many people can claim they know what they are doing based on one thing, 15 years in the past with no repeats since.

    "Hey I was right once, a long time ago...proof I know what I am doing today!"

    Sorry, things dont work like that in the real world.

     

     

    Steve Jobs was booted out of Apple in 1985.

    He started a ho-hum computer company and helped with Pixar, but nothing really spectacular.

    Then he returned to Apple in 1996 and made the world iCrazy.

    So technically speaking, Mark Jacobs should have returned four years ago, right?

    One of the great things about the human race is the ability to learn over time.

     

    Except the suits at EA... they never learn.

    To the OP:

     

    I get it you are pationate about the game and all but complaining about the complainers is kinda, well pointless. Hoping that CU is the next big things for those craving a PvP fix...

     

    EA never learns? People continuously throw money at them, they learned that they can do whatever the fuck they want and people will still buy their shit. When your actions don't have consequences, you won't learn anything.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    EA never learns? People continuously throw money at them, they learned that they can do whatever the fuck they want and people will still buy their shit. When your actions don't have consequences, you won't learn anything.

    Maybe if people keep throwing money on them, it probably ain't so much of "shit" and they just enjoy it...?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

  • papabear151papabear151 Owensboro, KYPosts: 96Member

    Or i can just vote with my wallet and give developers the choice to either make me good games or get no $$$ from me.

     

    Since I'm intelligent I'll take that choice.

  • papabear151papabear151 Owensboro, KYPosts: 96Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    EA never learns? People continuously throw money at them, they learned that they can do whatever the fuck they want and people will still buy their shit. When your actions don't have consequences, you won't learn anything.

     

    Maybe if people keep throwing money on them, it probably ain't so much of "shit" and they just enjoy it...?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

    Alright dude, Occam's razor doesn't really apply in situations like this, the whole "simplest explanation" thing is a laymen interpretation of a scientific concept that doesn't really apply to standard real life stuff.

    On top of this, the simplest explanation to me is that people are dumb and will buy anything faddish. If you think people buying crap games for no reason from a game company that has repeated screwed it's customers (and been rated as worst company on the planet) is easier to explain than "dumb people brainwashed into mindless consumerism" then I have a sad truth for you.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by papabear151

    Alright dude, Occam's razor doesn't really apply in situations like this, the whole "simplest explanation" thing is a laymen interpretation of a scientific concept that doesn't really apply to standard real life stuff.

    I would say your post proves otherwise...

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member


    Originally posted by meddyck
    TESO is being released in the nearer future than CU, so you're a little off. It's way too soon to know whether TESO will be another disappointment like WAR or GW 2 or if Matt Frior can actually make a new MMO that successfully mixes PvE and RvR of course.

    Im calling it now, its gonna suck.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

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