Well I dislike the specific direction and hand holding past the very introduction levels. But I understand that a lot of people really enjoy that direction.
Unfortuneately, I do not think it is going away soon.
I don't think it's a bad thing at all. If you just have to wander around aimlessly to find something for hours on end to finish a quest, it gets boring. The point of a game is to be fun. Being bored is not fun.
Best solutin is instanced story quests .. do them like SP games with environment changing, NPC responding to you ...
STO has pretty good Star Treky missions. That is a good example.
Game designers like this idea because once you exhaust the linear quest lines you have to get a new game.
Yeah .. and i like the ideas of getting new games too. So i will call it a win-win. It is a particularly big win for the players when the games are F2P.
the point is not the quests, its the levels. when a char must reach a spesific amount of levels, there always going to be quests.
either they call them hubs, events or whatever they are boring and repeatable quests. i dont care if they exist in a mmo but i care if i MUST use them.
so imho the solution is to take away the levels. make games skill based and not lvl based. make xp coming by using skills, weapons, exploration, running dungeons, raids, events, killing players etc. by just playing. and let quests too. i dont care if its just an option for any1 that likes them. i care when i m forced to do them too
the point is not the quests, its the levels. when a char must reach a spesific amount of levels, there always going to be quests.
either they call them hubs, events or whatever they are boring and repeatable quests. i dont care if they exist in a mmo but i care if i MUST use them.
so imho the solution is to take away the levels. make games skill based and not lvl based. make xp coming by using skills, weapons, exploration, running dungeons, raids, events, killing players etc. by just playing. and let quests too. i dont care if its just an option for any1 that likes them. i care when i m forced to do them too
There are plenty of games that have levels and no quests. WoT, for example. Or Star Conflict. You don't need to do away levels to do away quests.
The quests are there because players want them. Simple supply & demand.
maybe if you back some indie developers on kickstarter you will get some more interesting and not so much "by the numbers" games
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
How do MMO designers have jobs at this point. really how do these people have jobs.
It's one thing to take the casual solo quest grind gameplay of WoW, it's another to use it in every MMO and call your MMO innovative. Just call it WoW-clone 326.
If I see one more kill bugs 0/6 quest in a game, or give this letter to Gandalf 0/1 quest , I am going to punch a designer in the face.
Well millinos of people seem to be lapping these games up evertime one gets released... they wont stop until people stop buying them..
I dont mind them if they are done right, look at Elder Scrolls which is one of my favorite titles ever and youll find that a great deal of quests are fetch quests but they are far from the boring mmorpg style fetch quests (for the most part) because interesting things happen during them that may lead you in a new direction or bring something to your attention that otherwise went noticed previously. I think its the crafting of the quests and the delivery more than the actual objective that make a quest fun. Bad design - gather 10 items from mobs that have 10% chance to drop said item resulting in having to kill 50 of the same mob in hopes of a drop. Better design - gather 10 items from nodes/objectives placed in an area that mobs populate, if you kill X amount of mobs while you complete your task you get a bonus.
Originally posted by Aerowyn maybe if you back some indie developers on kickstarter you will get some more interesting and not so much "by the numbers" games
There are already tons of indie devs without going to KS.
Plus, people like "by the number" games, and they sell .. otherwise, not so many of them will be produced.
Naw, see here yall. Back in the day, quests used to be something. I remember, quests used to be epic. Now everything is a quest. 'Go to the grocery store,' thats a quest. 'Take out the trash,' thats a quest. I remember quests used to be all about adventure. All they told you was theres trasure in dem hills, and yous was supposed to find it, or not find it dependin on who you ask. And more often then not, yous didnt even have a map. Now, yous even got a little glowy trail thing pointing you right to it. What de hell kinda adventure is that?
I would love to hear about the "alternatives". You say that MMOs shouldn't do quests which are of the "kill x mobs", "collect x stuff" and "talk to NPC X" variety but can you give examples of alternatives? For example, GW2 does hearts and dynamic events but every single heart/dynamic event I can think of is one of these:
1) kill x number of mobs
2) colelct x number of stuff
3) talk to NPC X
4) Escort NPC X - god how much I hate escort quests. And GW2 brought shitloads of them!
Sooooo, can you think of anything " new"?
I have no problem with the MMO list of 4. Remember that all MMOs are an GUI to a database. Data has four basic types Integer, float, string, and bool. Realize that any “new” quest type must still be bound by these data types. BTW /duel, /flag, or /queue-for-pvp already exist and don’t count as “new” quest types.
And this is what I think of most "new" quests any ways.
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Originally posted by fivoroth I would love to hear about the "alternatives". You say that MMOs shouldn't do quests which are of the "kill x mobs", "collect x stuff" and "talk to NPC X" variety but can you give examples of alternatives? For example, GW2 does hearts and dynamic events but every single heart/dynamic event I can think of is one of these:1) kill x number of mobs2) colelct x number of stuff3) talk to NPC X4) Escort NPC X - god how much I hate escort quests. And GW2 brought shitloads of them!Sooooo, can you think of anything " new"?
I have no problem with the MMO list of 4. Remember that all MMOs are an GUI to a database. Data has four basic types Integer, float, string, and bool. Realize that any new quest type must still be bound by these data types. BTW /duel, /flag, or /queue-for-pvp already exist and dont count as new quest types.
And this is what I think of most "new" quests any ways.
How do MMO designers have jobs at this point. really how do these people have jobs.
It's one thing to take the casual solo quest grind gameplay of WoW, it's another to use it in every MMO and call your MMO innovative. Just call it WoW-clone 326.
If I see one more kill bugs 0/6 quest in a game, or give this letter to Gandalf 0/1 quest , I am going to punch a designer in the face.
Then we can call WoW the EQ Clone 231... and that one the UO Clone 994.. OH OH THEN THAT ONE THE REALM CLONE 2345!!!
People that consider WoW the benchmark make any point they may have had invalid.
It's tough to re-create a single player game from the perspective of questing in an MMO because you're going to get the same experience - a 40 hour game that you quit after you "beat" it.
Apart from WoW type quests and monster grinding I really don't know what else can be done to revolutionize this aspect of MMOs. (the leveling up part)
I think theres a lot betted way to do the quests. Instead of telling people, hey go there and do that, they should give subtle hints as to what you should do. Like you see an old woman trying to pck apples, you can just keep walking, or you can stop and give her a hand. Or, you hear reports as of a band or rebels terrorizing a local village, you can go find them and kill them, or perhaps you can go infiltrate their ranks and take them out from the inside. And suppose in the rebel camp you find a letter from an unknown source.... or not, because you overlooked it, in which case there are a million other things could be doing in the world.
It's tough to re-create a single player game from the perspective of questing in an MMO because you're going to get the same experience - a 40 hour game that you quit after you "beat" it.
It is not that hard. STO has done it with their story missions. TOR has also done it.
It's tough to re-create a single player game from the perspective of questing in an MMO because you're going to get the same experience - a 40 hour game that you quit after you "beat" it. Apart from WoW type quests and monster grinding I really don't know what else can be done to revolutionize this aspect of MMOs. (the leveling up part)
say you started in a town.. The town was under attack from 3 types of creatures..lets say trolls, ogres, and goblins... Now the basic quest would be cut down on the invaders..You go out and hunt down a few groups of goblins... Now after you do this you get wind of a goblin stronghold nearby which you get a group together and invade.You take out the goblins stronghold..now if you decide to setup camp at the stronghold you can build your own fort and help defend it against the trolls and ogres...if you fail the trolls and ogres will rebuild the camp and the goblins will return...each of the other groups will also have a stronghold you can take over and build up...by taking over and building up one of their strongholds you would get access to new supply routes that would stock NPCs at the main town with new materials you could not get otherwise....if a group holds a fort they built long enough a powerfull npc champion would come to try and destroy your fort or a small enemy army....how would that work for something new
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
It's tough to re-create a single player game from the perspective of questing in an MMO because you're going to get the same experience - a 40 hour game that you quit after you "beat" it.
It is not that hard. STO has done it with their story missions. TOR has also done it.
Those probably aren't the best two examples since both had large dips in their population shortly after their respective launches.
It CAN be done, but your game has to have some other substance to them, because if that's all there is to do, people will shelve it and move onto the next game as soon as the stories are completed.
I would love to hear about the "alternatives". You say that MMOs shouldn't do quests which are of the "kill x mobs", "collect x stuff" and "talk to NPC X" variety but can you give examples of alternatives? For example, GW2 does hearts and dynamic events but every single heart/dynamic event I can think of is one of these:
1) kill x number of mobs
2) colelct x number of stuff
3) talk to NPC X
4) Escort NPC X - god how much I hate escort quests. And GW2 brought shitloads of them!
Sooooo, can you think of anything " new"?
And when you think about it, that is essentially what all mythological quests boil down to. I think people wouldn't mind quests of this sort if the players had more freedom in deciding HOW to complete the quests.
Take the Labors of Hercules for example, specifically his Fifth labor.. He is to clean out the Augean Stables in one day...essentially a 'collect cow manure' quest. It's a timed quest. But how he completes it is up to him. Rather than grab a shovel and start pitching out the crap, he diverts a stream and floods the stables to wash them clean.
I firmly believe that if players were given more freedom in how to complete quests, they'd be much more enjoyable.
Originally posted by Vembumees There isn't even one thing in the world that isn't hated by someone.
You know what everybody likes? Parfaits! Have you ever met a person, you say, "Let's get some parfait," they say, "Hell no, I don't like no parfait"? Parfaits are delicious!
I instantly read that in Eddie Murphy's voice. I'm still smiling.
Tasks in EQ were a fun gimmick/distraction. But we didn't have quest hubs.
I don't like tasks to be the primary method of leveling. I also think any NPC assigned duties should require a conversation with the NPC and not a mere two or three clicks.
In EQ, quests were hard to find and even more hard to complete. And completion was usually the primary reward, lol.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I would love to hear about the "alternatives". You say that MMOs shouldn't do quests which are of the "kill x mobs", "collect x stuff" and "talk to NPC X" variety but can you give examples of alternatives? For example, GW2 does hearts and dynamic events but every single heart/dynamic event I can think of is one of these:
1) kill x number of mobs
2) colelct x number of stuff
3) talk to NPC X
4) Escort NPC X - god how much I hate escort quests. And GW2 brought shitloads of them!
Sooooo, can you think of anything " new"?
And when you think about it, that is essentially what all mythological quests boil down to. I think people wouldn't mind quests of this sort if the players had more freedom in deciding HOW to complete the quests.
Take the Labors of Hercules for example, specifically his Fifth labor.. He is to clean out the Augean Stables in one day...essentially a 'collect cow manure' quest. It's a timed quest. But how he completes it is up to him. Rather than grab a shovel and start pitching out the crap, he diverts a stream and floods the stables to wash them clean.
I firmly believe that if players were given more freedom in how to complete quests, they'd be much more enjoyable.
Yes, this reminds me of Quest for Glory. For those of you too young to remember or for some inexplicable reason never played one, it is of the greatest PC RPG's.
Here's an example of gameplay:
You go to the healers house and she won't sell you anything or give you information, but she blabbers on about her lost ring. You look around her cottage but don't see anything, but a bird is chirping in the window.
Now, this was before the internets was for peoples. So you had to know that birds are attracted to shiney things.
Outside her cottage was a tree with a large branch and a bird's nest in it. You see an occasional sparkle if you wait for it.
You can climb the tree if your climbing skills are high enough. And see what's in the nest.
Or if you were too weak to climb, and you had found the fetch spell, you could cast that and it would retrive the nest for you.
Or if you weren't magically inclined or agile enough to climb, you could just throw things at it and knock it down.
Of course, this is all awesome and fun, but the internet would ruin it. Because a single spoiler destroys all the gameplay options. That's where TSW went wrong. Their quests require you to play detective, but instead of having all the clues available in gmae, they make you google it and that just ruins it.
I'm sure these players inserted Super Mario Bros into their NES back in the day and were like, "Save the princess!? Who the fuck do you think I am, some kind of slave to questing!?"
Later they played Lemmings, "Save 50 lemmings!? Completely unacceptable!"
Still later they played Starcraft 1, "Kill the zerg brood lord Daggoth!? You've got to be kidding me."
More recently they deleted and uninstalled Bioshock Infinite because it gave them instructions which were clearly quests, "Save Elizabeth?! I'm outraged!"
So the serious answer is that objective-based gaming will always exist, and has always existed since nearly the dawn of gaming.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
Yeah .. and i like the ideas of getting new games too. So i will call it a win-win. It is a particularly big win for the players when the games are F2P.
uh? Where did i say anything about PvP? Everything i said is about pve.
the point is not the quests, its the levels. when a char must reach a spesific amount of levels, there always going to be quests.
either they call them hubs, events or whatever they are boring and repeatable quests. i dont care if they exist in a mmo but i care if i MUST use them.
so imho the solution is to take away the levels. make games skill based and not lvl based. make xp coming by using skills, weapons, exploration, running dungeons, raids, events, killing players etc. by just playing. and let quests too. i dont care if its just an option for any1 that likes them. i care when i m forced to do them too
There are plenty of games that have levels and no quests. WoT, for example. Or Star Conflict. You don't need to do away levels to do away quests.
The quests are there because players want them. Simple supply & demand.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Well millinos of people seem to be lapping these games up evertime one gets released... they wont stop until people stop buying them..
There are already tons of indie devs without going to KS.
Plus, people like "by the number" games, and they sell .. otherwise, not so many of them will be produced.
MMO questing pre WoW? There, I've improved it.
Multiple ways to level.
I have no problem with the MMO list of 4. Remember that all MMOs are an GUI to a database. Data has four basic types Integer, float, string, and bool. Realize that any “new” quest type must still be bound by these data types. BTW /duel, /flag, or /queue-for-pvp already exist and don’t count as “new” quest types.
And this is what I think of most "new" quests any ways.
http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/cdf8084c-8879-43fc-b8b5-1a703fb7bb3e
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I have no problem with the MMO list of 4. Remember that all MMOs are an GUI to a database. Data has four basic types Integer, float, string, and bool. Realize that any new quest type must still be bound by these data types. BTW /duel, /flag, or /queue-for-pvp already exist and dont count as new quest types.
And this is what I think of most "new" quests any ways.
http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/cdf8084c-8879-43fc-b8b5-1a703fb7bb3e
And dont forget that all quests are bound by the rule of 1's and 0's.Then we can call WoW the EQ Clone 231... and that one the UO Clone 994.. OH OH THEN THAT ONE THE REALM CLONE 2345!!!
People that consider WoW the benchmark make any point they may have had invalid.
It's tough to re-create a single player game from the perspective of questing in an MMO because you're going to get the same experience - a 40 hour game that you quit after you "beat" it.
Apart from WoW type quests and monster grinding I really don't know what else can be done to revolutionize this aspect of MMOs. (the leveling up part)
It is not that hard. STO has done it with their story missions. TOR has also done it.
say you started in a town.. The town was under attack from 3 types of creatures..lets say trolls, ogres, and goblins... Now the basic quest would be cut down on the invaders..You go out and hunt down a few groups of goblins... Now after you do this you get wind of a goblin stronghold nearby which you get a group together and invade.You take out the goblins stronghold..now if you decide to setup camp at the stronghold you can build your own fort and help defend it against the trolls and ogres...if you fail the trolls and ogres will rebuild the camp and the goblins will return...each of the other groups will also have a stronghold you can take over and build up...by taking over and building up one of their strongholds you would get access to new supply routes that would stock NPCs at the main town with new materials you could not get otherwise....if a group holds a fort they built long enough a powerfull npc champion would come to try and destroy your fort or a small enemy army....how would that work for something newI angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Those probably aren't the best two examples since both had large dips in their population shortly after their respective launches.
It CAN be done, but your game has to have some other substance to them, because if that's all there is to do, people will shelve it and move onto the next game as soon as the stories are completed.
And when you think about it, that is essentially what all mythological quests boil down to. I think people wouldn't mind quests of this sort if the players had more freedom in deciding HOW to complete the quests.
Take the Labors of Hercules for example, specifically his Fifth labor.. He is to clean out the Augean Stables in one day...essentially a 'collect cow manure' quest. It's a timed quest. But how he completes it is up to him. Rather than grab a shovel and start pitching out the crap, he diverts a stream and floods the stables to wash them clean.
I firmly believe that if players were given more freedom in how to complete quests, they'd be much more enjoyable.
EQ2 fan sites
I instantly read that in Eddie Murphy's voice. I'm still smiling.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Tasks in EQ were a fun gimmick/distraction. But we didn't have quest hubs.
I don't like tasks to be the primary method of leveling. I also think any NPC assigned duties should require a conversation with the NPC and not a mere two or three clicks.
In EQ, quests were hard to find and even more hard to complete. And completion was usually the primary reward, lol.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Yes, this reminds me of Quest for Glory. For those of you too young to remember or for some inexplicable reason never played one, it is of the greatest PC RPG's.
Here's an example of gameplay:
You go to the healers house and she won't sell you anything or give you information, but she blabbers on about her lost ring. You look around her cottage but don't see anything, but a bird is chirping in the window.
Now, this was before the internets was for peoples. So you had to know that birds are attracted to shiney things.
Outside her cottage was a tree with a large branch and a bird's nest in it. You see an occasional sparkle if you wait for it.
You can climb the tree if your climbing skills are high enough. And see what's in the nest.
Or if you were too weak to climb, and you had found the fetch spell, you could cast that and it would retrive the nest for you.
Or if you weren't magically inclined or agile enough to climb, you could just throw things at it and knock it down.
Of course, this is all awesome and fun, but the internet would ruin it. Because a single spoiler destroys all the gameplay options. That's where TSW went wrong. Their quests require you to play detective, but instead of having all the clues available in gmae, they make you google it and that just ruins it.
I'm sure these players inserted Super Mario Bros into their NES back in the day and were like, "Save the princess!? Who the fuck do you think I am, some kind of slave to questing!?"
Later they played Lemmings, "Save 50 lemmings!? Completely unacceptable!"
Still later they played Starcraft 1, "Kill the zerg brood lord Daggoth!? You've got to be kidding me."
More recently they deleted and uninstalled Bioshock Infinite because it gave them instructions which were clearly quests, "Save Elizabeth?! I'm outraged!"
So the serious answer is that objective-based gaming will always exist, and has always existed since nearly the dawn of gaming.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver