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If the players didn't want it, they wouldn't be buying them up.
They want easy, they want quick gaming sessions, they want rewards.
It's not that the gaming companies don't know what gamers want, they know exactly what they want, they just don't care what OTHER gamers want. They think there's no market for challenging games that aren't WoWesque.
You're talking about a generation of gamers that didn't grow up playing games that didn't have saves, and would make you start from the beginning if you made a mistake. They grew up with games that mostly let you keep trying until you eventually got it.
Gamers tend to think that other games are like them, and want the same kind of games as them, and that's not how it works. Those of us that actually enjoy challenging games are the minority. Most gamers do not like games that they will fail at.
Most gamers just want to "win" the game, and that's what developers give them, because that's what is going to sell the most boxes and games are not cheap to make anymore.
When games cost millions of dollars to make anymore, it's not suprising that they focus on the group of gamers that is going to buy the most.
Originally posted by ByrhofenThe point still remains the same though, posters claim that older MMOs are superior gameplay/feature wise to newer MMOs, yet they do not play them, even if they still can.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Good MMORPG's grow, they don't start out big. That progression is what makes a game last.
Now, new games are geared to have 50 servers @ start, then 24 months later, down to 11 servers/shards.
Instead of the EQ, UO method, of slowly opening up new worlds... start with 5 servers (thus, smalller niche) and grow it to 10~15 servers/shards, 2 years later. CEo are doing it backward, because they don't care how many millions don 't like their game, or complain about balancing on some forum... they got PAID!
A MMORPG is just like a tree... you need a small core group who is there solely because they support the idea of this/that game. Other eventually fall into it and bring their friends & others along... 7 years later you have EVE..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Originally posted by Myria I really wish people would skip the psychobabble bullshit, it's meaningless tripe. First, the whole "Pavlovian conditioning" and "Skinner box" stuff? It's crap. Behaviorism is crap, and always has been. Subliminal conditioning? Doesn't work. Aversion therapy? Doesn't work -- that alone puts a hole in the whole "brainwashing" thing you could fit a medium-sized globular cluster through. Hell, torture, the purest form of "Skinner box" there is (the original Skinner boxes basically being torture machines), doesn't work. There is no brainwashing someone to do anything you want if you just say "Would you kindly" (depressing how much milage Bioshock has gotten off of strawmen), there will never be a Walden Two, and you sure as hell don't "brainwash" masses of people just by making a game easier. It's crap, all of it. Human (or most animals, for that matter) are not simple stimulus-response black boxes, and every attempt there has ever been to try and find a way to easily manipulate people on any scale has failed, and usually backfired. People can be manipulated, to be sure, both as individuals and as groups, but that is far from a simple, predictable, or risk-free matter. It invariably requires giving them (or making them believe they will get) something they want (or believe they want), and it sure the hell isn't anything like what is generally meant by "brain washing". I'm sure there are many devs -- or, at least, the people they work for -- who wish they could and were able to 'brainwash' people. Instead they have to do the hard work of trying different things until they find something people like and will pay for. Just because you don't like the end result of that doesn't make it 'brainwashing', it just makes you an outlier.
Most fast food places spend a lot of money trying to make you think that their hamburgers taste good.
Casinos advertise that you could be a big winner. Then once you're their you will notice that their are no windows and no clock so that you can't tell what time it is and how love you've been there. The carpet is meant to make you dizzy so that you look straight ahead at the game tables and slot machines. They pump oxygen in the rooms to keep you more alert so you don't feel tired in the middle of gambling. You get free caffinated drinks at the casinos I live by to keep you more alert. Clearly they are not trying to manipulate people.
Gdemami -Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
LOL ... brainwash? Just because others have different preferences than you .. you think they are brainwashed?
Heck, even before the modern MMO, i think the UO & EQ are not fun games .. thus i didn't play UO beyond beta .. and quit EQ after 1 year (and only play for a year because there weren't many choices then).
Now MMOs are better games. Exactly what i have been waiting for ... it is the other way around. Devs didn't brainwash anyone .. they looked at what were the pain points, and fixed MMOs. You can say the players brainwashed them instead.
Originally posted by Magiknight Most fast food places spend a lot of money trying to make you think that their hamburgers taste good. Casinos advertise that you could be a big winner. Then once you're their you will notice that their are no windows and no clock so that you can't tell what time it is and how love you've been there. The carpet is meant to make you dizzy so that you look straight ahead at the game tables and slot machines. They pump oxygen in the rooms to keep you more alert so you don't feel tired in the middle of gambling. You get free caffinated drinks at the casinos I live by to keep you more alert. Clearly they are not trying to manipulate people.
And yet when I walk in there the first thing I want to do is leave and find some place that doesn't have all that BS. The ppl sitting in there are addicted. You could light the place on fire and they wouldn't leave. All of that stuff may help tip someone over the edge IF.... they're the type of person that is already sitting on it.
The same thing goes on in mmos. All that garbage they put in to keep people playing, has so far, backfired for the most part. Sure the adicts play forever trying to get the next little pointless reward. But they'd be happy with just about any trash content. The rest of the people take one look at it and say this game has nothing to do at end game and leave.
Originally posted by DamonVile Originally posted by Magiknight Most fast food places spend a lot of money trying to make you think that their hamburgers taste good. Casinos advertise that you could be a big winner. Then once you're their you will notice that their are no windows and no clock so that you can't tell what time it is and how love you've been there. The carpet is meant to make you dizzy so that you look straight ahead at the game tables and slot machines. They pump oxygen in the rooms to keep you more alert so you don't feel tired in the middle of gambling. You get free caffinated drinks at the casinos I live by to keep you more alert. Clearly they are not trying to manipulate people.
I usually like to have something to do besides end game. For me it's more about the journey than the ending, although trying to get some epic armor at the end of the game is always nice. As long as it's harder to get than WoW made it.
I lived two miles from a casino for three years before I started going regularly. In half a year it had ruined my life. Many of the same people are there everytime I go there. They are usually very lonely people. Sometimes I wonder if that's how humanity has always been. People become more and more degenerate with each generation. These people then settle for crap that is shoved in their face.
Originally posted by Magiknight
Casinos typically do not want people to 'ruined my life' as they aren't likely to be repeated customers.
Contrary to popular belief casinos want lots of people to lose small amounts of money so they become long term customers.
It is hilarious to think humanity is better / worse than what we had before. Humanity has changed, whether for the good or bad is up to everyone's opinion. I think it has gotten better; equal rights is something definitely better than what humanity had before.
In terms of this topic?
I disagree because by this thread's logic, my dad asking me to pick him up at the airport is considered 'brain washing'.
Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by Magiknight
They don't care if they ruined someones life or not as long as that person is bringing money in that they will gladly take for nothing in return. And by long term customers I'm sure you mean the people who are there three times a week gambling at least hundreds away, if not tens of thousands, every week, and almost always loosing. The gambling industry would crumble in a matter of months without these people.
Not everyones opinion is equal. People are not equal.
you mean something like this?
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toProper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Originally posted by Squeak69 you mean something like this? http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-skinner-box
Originally posted by delete5230 Brain washing. First I would like to say that this word causes anger in people. No one likes being played as a fool. But non the less its what big business does to achieve maximum profit AT ANY COST. Some backround : I worked as a lower management at a very large corporation. I was a floor supervisor of the no big deal type. However I was well versed in Statistical Process Control and other management tools, and had attended many meetings related to our product and how to continuously reduce cost.........So I know how business works ! Many of us posters here at mmorpg.com are not happy with the direction that our mmos have taken as of the last few years. Sure some do but as a majority I would say no. Newer players don't understand the gold mine of what mmos were. They say things like EQ1 is so old, outdated, stick figure like graphics, and needless windows to open. BUT what it really was about is working together in a harsh environment to achieve an epic outcome. It was about fantasizing at work and developing a game plan for that evenings play. Anticipating that all your friends would be online and hoping they would go with your plan. Every morning at work or school was like waiting for Christmas. You could not get home fast enough to try out your new chain of abilities because your old ones did not work. What could have done better is more options to solo if that was your style. THIS SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED OLD SCHOOL. It should have evolved deeper and with better graphics, more complex classes and abilities. Expansions should add content instead of changing for the worst. What we have going now is what I call a "quick fix". I know its not a business word but it's what I would like to use. Our CEO was and accountant. He told us straight out concentrate on the here-and-now. Make us money TODAY because you don't know what the future holds. We are not going to have downtime for preventive maintenance but run our machines faster at all cost and fix later ! By now most here know where I'm going with this as it relates to mmos, but here is is anyway. Lackluster,easy, fun fun games sell faster. GET BOX SALES FAST AT ANY COST, deal with low retentions later, we could always have a layoff and reduce cost. Our future is uncertain, depending on the direction our product takes will add, but thats later. Make our money now !................We have the public on our side, they are saying things like old school sucks and the newer generation are expecting 30 days of content anyway. So lets use this to our advantage. So their you have it developers score 10 points, mmo community 2. Now I'll leave you with this : Who is really asking for easy, fast leveling, and get to end game quick !!!..........I think developers are acting on there own. - Easy fast leveling = less content ! - Get to end game quick = buy our expansions !
Yeah man. Its a conspiracy! Its all a wicked illuminati plot to prepare the new world order. It's like those half naked toon ads from Scarlett Blade that still litter the site on occasion. It's all subliminal messaging using sex to raise money ( they used toons because nerds relate to them better than real women) for Camelot Unchained ( you can see camelot in the color backgrounds behind the breasts) which is really a tool to train grunt warriors for the secret war brewing where they will take over the internets and get us to spend cash through kickstarter to fund their darwinistic projects for global supremacy. F'n cool way to fund a war man. Get the free peoples to pay and train for their own conquering army things man like its just some game candy they think they want but hardly play when it gets here. I'm telling you Richard Garriot got a hand in this some how too like coca cola man its all sticky and sweet togetrher you just wait he only took that russian rocket trip to fake a law suit thing to transfer money to the chinese mafia to buy Chris Roberts freedom from the chinese mafia milk house cause he couldn't pay his way out of Mark Hamill's voice acting bill alone and had to take a seedy loan...
Uhm so I am full of it too. Sometimes it really is just the need for cash driving people in the market to make something they think people will buy rather than some hidden agenda. I mean do you consider the everyday marketing of products and media spin to be "brain washing" or just good salesmanship?
Yes, and this goes through out all genres. Not only MMOs.
Hell the whole pre-order system, the horrific DLC system and now the backer system which completely got out of hand and people backing and hours later have doubt if they gonna get what they paid for, YOU GAMERS have given approval to exist! Hell of course youre not gonna get what youve paid for, how would you? Developers on kickstarter are only messing with Fans. "Oh remember the good game you had in the past, here we are gonna refresh your memory with this revamp!" OF COURSE YOUR MEMORY WILL NOT BE UPDATED AND SHINE WITH THIS NEW TITLE, but you all will see. It's like with the game you have played in the past, with the flowery grafics and the woonderful story and you re-install it and go "Wtf those grafics looked way more beatufil in my head and I now I even remember the whole content again." - The world is just showing you that your memory can never be trusted.
Well DUH, that's the only way for people without self-reflection, intelligence or a minor bit of grown wisdom to learn: Make accidence, break yourself bones, etc - aka Trial and error. That's stone-age learning but better than nothing.
So one advice from your gaming-God, aka "me":
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Originally posted by Byrhofen OP, you seem to be missing something. Those old MMOs, like EQ, are STILL OPERATING, which means you, and anyone else that has the same opinion about how how much better they are, can go play them. If you really think Devs have brainwashed you, it is because YOU let them do it, by playing their game.
Not the same game, but still a hell of a lot more hardcore than any current games.
Originally posted by Morgaren Do you know why EVERY single fast food establishment has red on their sign and logo? Red creates impulsive behavior in the human psyche. It helps make you stop and pull in.
It's the combination of red and orange, and it was the reason MasterCard chose those colors for its logo.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by LoktofeitOriginally posted by MorgarenDo you know why EVERY single fast food establishment has red on their sign and logo? Red creates impulsive behavior in the human psyche. It helps make you stop and pull in.
Where is this great MEGA POLL that so many of you talk about ?.......Did I miss this great thing someplace on the net ?
Who asked for easy ?
Who is telling developers that they would like fast pased 30 day un sociable fun ?
Many of you are sucked into what developers are setting you up for !
Majority of gamers ask for quick fix and devs just provide and publisher happy, only problems is over the years it got out of hand and now you have most mmo's ezmode solo gameplay.
The sandbox(darkfall) or games try to be more hardcore/oldschool many start exploiting cheating to get there fix fast resulting in failors of those who try.
Its gamers fault or not maybe majority just want this quick fix and developers give them what they want.
These days most mmo players hop hop from mmo to mmo there bored in few weeks ive seen this so many times.
We can never go back to old days(AC2 releaunch have show me this) whole community want quick fix.
Your familiar with the terms like timesink grind thats what people these days dont want anymore its simple as that.
Originally posted by Reklaw Originally posted by delete5230 Now I'll leave you with this : Who is really asking for easy, fast leveling, and get to end game quick !!!..........I think developers are acting on there own. - Easy fast leveling = less content ! - Get to end game quick = buy our expansions !
I agree with much of what you said and am in the same boat of not liking the direction this genre has gone too.
But highlighted red what you already should have known is to understand the complaints of the old is what has given us the way MMO's are today. Sure ignoring that and we can continue to blame the developers and/or gamecompany's
agreed. Also his two points there are accurate and on top of that, Less content, expansion expectations, and still charging for more than they content is worth at launch. Incomplete products for the price of fully finished masterpieces. That is a huge problem that brain washed people like to defend and call other people cheap or poor to feel good with themselves.
Originally posted by delete5230 Where is this great MEGA POLL that so many of you talk about ?.......Did I miss this great thing someplace on the net ? Who asked for easy ? Who is telling developers that they would like fast pased 30 day un sociable fun ?
Here's the mega poll people are talking about http://us.battle.net/wow/en/
It clearly shows people want easy, fast and un social. And unlike a forum poll you can't argue with thier bank statments.
Yeah DAOC is running too, a shit version of it.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Originally posted by 4bsolute So one advice from your gaming-God, aka "me": Never pre-order Never buy DLCs (because it's a way of companies releasing content that would eitherwise have been available from the start) If you have concerns about a title, simply wait and let others fall into the trap / let professional reviewers do their job Rather pirate a title, than buy it IF you have concerns! Yes, I said that.
Good advice .. exactly what i do.
Plus, play F2P games .. you don't have to give a dime unless you really like the game.
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick do you consider the everyday marketing of products and media spin to be "brain washing" or just good salesmanship?
thats this topic in a nutshell
Kickstarter: Stuff I'm supporting