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Is this the end of a genre?

2

Comments

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon

    The number of people playing MMO's has increased, the number of MMO's has increased.

    Dying might not exactly be the right word here.

    And just because you see games fail doesn't mean the genre is dying it just means that there's more competition than ever and players have higher expecations than before.

    Even some of the games that failed (read: failed at becoming monstrous multi-million player base games) still have people playing them. TSW, SWTOR, AoC, Aion the list keeps going.

     

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,916Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    No, it's not the end of a genre, just the evolution of one.

    This happens in most creative genres. You just find yourself on the side that doesn't like where it's going. Pretty understandable.

     

    Wisdom!

     

    I still like my New Wave from the early 80s.  Styles may change, but that doesn't mean my tastes have to change with the times.  Maybe it's an old fart phenomenon.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wordiz

    A few months back I had a post titled, "Soooo bored...." Come to find out, I wasn't the only one waiting for a mmo savior with nothing play. Well here were are again, and I still have nothing to play.

    I've played through Skyrim again and the new Dragonborn xpack. I played Bioshock: Infinite (Incredible game, but short like most shooters), playing Civ 5, bored out of my mind now. 

    As far as MMOs:

    I redownloaded Guild Wars 2 and leveled another character to 80 before finding myself with nothing to do once again. 

    I can't get myself to go back to SWTOR, which seems to be where most of my gaming buddies have gone, but I wish it would just die already. EA will not see a penny from me.

    I'd almost like to play Rift, but not too many people I know play it, and subscriptions have been rejected by most, yet people still pay for WoW. IMO it's probably the best MMO out right now, but not a very good MMO at all in the long run.

    TSW, the questing is fun and such and the dungeons are pretty cool even, but classes are crazy imbalanced and I find myself needing to go back and do quests to get enough skill points to switch to spinny blades instead of my squishy caster...but yeah, no, I don't really have an interest to do so, and within a couple weeks there'd be nothing left to keep me busy anyways.

    Naturally, there's a slew of other games not worth mentioning. Not insult to anyone that plays any of those games. We're all desperate, I understand.

    There's the dated classics, but we're well past the decade mark on a lot of them, those that haven't been shut down or noobified.

    Getting to my point:

    This next batch of promissing MMOs with 2013 release dates, and some of the other titles coming later are seeming more and more to be a last stab at glory for the genre. I know I'm not the only one that's wasted hundreds on disappointing titles. Not just MMOs, ( I know, I'm soooo STUPID! XD. It's what I get for riding the HYPE TRAAAIN!!! XD. I said it, now you can't flamers. Trolls, feel free.) and I feel a lot of us are too fearful to even buy a game at launch anymore, let alone pre-order.

    So to reiterate: Is this the end of a genre? If the games leaving hype station this year happen to fail (ESO, AA, FFXIV, Defiance, Neverwinter...so on) how many of us are going to lose our faith in the genre completely? I'm not saying I will, but there are others more pessimistic than myself. Is the next batch of MMOs gonna make or break this genre we all love? I think it might.

    Your thoughts please.

    P.S.

    Remember, I'm asking a question, not making a statement (other than my gaming preferences). I know my taste in games may differ from many. I don't pretend to be some ultimate authority, so please don't attack me.

    You've only waited a few months and you believe the next big thing should be coming along the pipeline? And only because you cannot see anything to your liking coming, you feel the genre is nearing it's end? I hope not. Back in 1996 when mmorpgs were just getting started, there was maybe 5 or so mmorpgs coming down the pipeline. And that pipeline took years.

     

    Flash forward to 2013 and you check to see how many mmorpgs are coming down the pipeline and there are hundreds in development. Does that mean they will all drop at the same time? Of course not. Does that mean that any of them will be huge hits? Nope. But it does let you know that the genre is far from being finito.

     

    Up to this point devs have been chasing that magical carrot called WoW and using that as a measuring stick for success. It has only been recently that they have gotten it through their thick skulls that the genre is nearing capacity. And the broadband boom is reaching it's peak. So it is not smart to continue using WoW as a gauge for success. The pie has been made, so to speak, and now is the time to cut out your little slice of heaven. That's why you have devs talking about niches and not trying to obtain WoW like numbers. Sad thing is, it's the players themselves that are being slow on the uptake. And by that I mean with every new mmorpg that's being release, they still have the old habit of comparing it that magical carrot. Instead they should be judging it based on sustainability and potential growth.

     

    It won't be until the next technological boom (like broadband in the early 00s) and we get a bigger size pie tin, that we see a possible big hit again in the genre. Because that's when obviously the pie gets bigger and there is more to divvy up. And the next huge wave of investors, devs and companies trying to repeat that next success story.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member
    Originally posted by XAPKen
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    No, it's not the end of a genre, just the evolution of one.

    This happens in most creative genres. You just find yourself on the side that doesn't like where it's going. Pretty understandable.

     

    Wisdom!

     

    I still like my New Wave from the early 80s.  Styles may change, but that doesn't mean my tastes have to change with the times.  Maybe it's an old fart phenomenon.

     

    Just wanted to note that many still consider Final Fantasy VII as one of the best games ever made. When was the last time you saw a JRPG? Trends, genres, entire artforms CAN die. It's entirely possible. Not everything just evolves into something new.

    Reminder to some other replies: First of all thanks for the feedback. I'm loving all of your perspectives. However, please remember I did'nt claim to predict anything or say that this IS the way things are ABSOLUTLEY going. Once again, I'm asking if it could happen, and what could be the potential outcome. I'm not the holy prophet of online gaming. I just know I'm not the only one that feels this way, regardless of how big our demographic may be.

  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member
    It won't be until the next technological boom (like broadband in the early 00s) and we get a bigger size pie tin, that we see a possible big hit again in the genre. Because that's when obviously the pie gets bigger and there is more to divvy up. And the next huge wave of investors, devs and companies trying to repeat that next success story.

    I have also considered this. I think you're probably right, just hoping we get something to hold us over for now. I know a lot of us are waiting for the new games, it'll suck if we're let down, and have to go on waiting another year or (god forbid) years.

  • PoporiPopori Hickory Grove, SCPosts: 334Member
    I've still got my fingers crossed for that title that brings about the collapse of the MMO market.
  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member

    End of a genre? kind of arrogant to say that considering we have everything from themeparks to sandparks to damn near the closest you can come to a sandbox both already launched (Age of Conan, WoW, GW2, EVE-Online, Archeage, Age of Wushu,Vanguard Saga of Heroes, etc) and on the horizon (CU, Albion Online, Embers of Caerus, Neverwinter,Wildfire, World of Darkness, The Repopulation, etc) and we're seeing revivals of long dead iterations of games or whole games (The Old Servers on Runescape, the projects to bring back pub 14.1 of SWG one of which is clawing its way through early beta stages, christ there are WoW private servers out there that reverse engineer Mysts of Pandaria content to vanilla level standards of difficulty and quality, granted not perfect but still).

    To put it bluntly: No the genre isn't dying but for the last 4-5 years it's been suffering growing pains and a massive identity crysis as WoW slowly loses it's hold on the horde (pun intended) of players it brought into play and other MMO models (both payment and gameplay) struggle to cope both with the demands from the playerbase and from their publisher. The end of this era of turmoil is coming though as a the new wave of gamers start cutting their teeth on more in depth games and demand this depth from the MMOs they would desire to play, the next few years will see another explosion of innovation the likes of which has not been seen since the early 2000s.

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  • thecapitainethecapitaine West Chester, PAPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    In any evolutionary process there are bound to be dead ends and there are certainly artforms that only exist as footnotes or historical relics.  But I'm inclined to believe that in modern times most do survive through their ancestors, if not outright.  You can go to New York, for instance, spend a month and hear Western music spanning 300 years performed to diverse crowds.  D&D has been around for 30 years or so?  Suffice it to say that in the near term I don't think it's a stretch to think that MMOs or some evolution thereof will be around as a genre.  Everquest or UO or WoW may be gone, certainly, but there's every reason to believe massively multiplayer games will continue to exist.
  • Jerek_Jerek_ tulsa, OKPosts: 409Member
    Originally posted by wordiz
    Originally posted by XAPKen
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    No, it's not the end of a genre, just the evolution of one.

    This happens in most creative genres. You just find yourself on the side that doesn't like where it's going. Pretty understandable.

     

    Wisdom!

     

    I still like my New Wave from the early 80s.  Styles may change, but that doesn't mean my tastes have to change with the times.  Maybe it's an old fart phenomenon.

     

    Just wanted to note that many still consider Final Fantasy VII as one of the best games ever made. When was the last time you saw a JRPG? Trends, genres, entire artforms CAN die. It's entirely possible. Not everything just evolves into something new.

    Reminder to some other replies: First of all thanks for the feedback. I'm loving all of your perspectives. However, please remember I did'nt claim to predict anything or say that this IS the way things are ABSOLUTLEY going. Once again, I'm asking if it could happen, and what could be the potential outcome. I'm not the holy prophet of online gaming. I just know I'm not the only one that feels this way, regardless of how big our demographic may be.

    the last time I played a jrpg was yesterday when I finished final fantasy xiii-2, it was a great game that I had a lot of fun with.  What really struck me about it was that it had complex systems, like the monster companion capture, leveling, and customization, that was a thousand times more complex than anything I've seen in an MMO in years, probably since swg crafting.  I can see why people might not like the story of the game, but it does still exist and MMO devs could learn a ton about making real games again from it.

    That aside, I agree very much with the sentiment in the OP.  I find myself I basically the same situation concerning the future of MMO's.  The sad answer I have come to is that yes, this probably is the end, at least for me.  I wasn't an active part of any MMO for several years before TOR, and it failed to live up to even my modest expectations.  Although they might turn out to be good games for some, I already know that nothing coming out soon is the game I'm looking for.  So that leaves games just beginning development.  Thats 5 to 7 years away, and aside from TOR will have been close to a decade since I last played a MMO in a serious way.  I just don't think I'll care at that point, and even if I do, I still need to find a new hobby in the meantime.

     

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,523Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Popori
    I've still got my fingers crossed for that title that brings about the collapse of the MMO market.

    Won't happen, ever. We are social animals, which is why the harshest punishment is solitary confinement.

    So the future games will continue to be online and social. They will only get better with better technology.

  • Hydros13Hydros13 New York, NYPosts: 30Member
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Popori
    I've still got my fingers crossed for that title that brings about the collapse of the MMO market.

    Won't happen, ever. We are social animals, which is why the harshest punishment is solitary confinement.

    So the future games will continue to be online and social. They will only get better with better technology.

    I agree, the genre is only evolving. I too find myself without a MMO to play atm, but I know the future is bright for the MMOs as a genre.

  • PoporiPopori Hickory Grove, SCPosts: 334Member
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Popori
    I've still got my fingers crossed for that title that brings about the collapse of the MMO market.

    Won't happen, ever. We are social animals, which is why the harshest punishment is solitary confinement.

    So the future games will continue to be online and social. They will only get better with better technology.

    For the first statement, I'm sure you're right.  

    For the second, I see no evidence of that being the case.  I agree that social/online is no issue and welcome in any game really.  But any signs of the 'don't innovate, replicate' cash grab ending have been lost on me.

    edit: And the whole "Man, this MMO is gonna be the one to break the mold!" statement has been going strong for about 6 or more years now.

  • Nhoj1983Nhoj1983 Mount Vernon, WAPosts: 185Member

    The end of AAA MMOs as we know it?  Maybe.  One thing that I've learned is there will always be something new over the horizon.  Whether it be an expansion or totally new mmo.  The trick is to not expect something of a single mesiah and you'll likely find games you will enjoy for what they are and not what you want them to be.  With games like Neverwinter, Pathfinder, and (hopefully) camelot unhcained coming.  You're going to find games built with a niche market in mind with budgets to match which in turn will mean they won't be able to be everything to everyone but they should do what they set out to do.. meaning to be different.  I didn't even mention EQ next which I have high hopes for because I do have a feeling it'll be AAA level funded.

     

     We have a slew of new games f2p and AAA coming this year as well as updates or expansions to already established mmos.  I'll not get into those but one thing that has been proven over and over is that f2p or b2p cash models are the future.  The games of the future will go for the most successful routs... and the most successful to date are these models.  this is the one thing that worries me about ARR but it is a lesser monthly cost and it'll be tapping into a group of people that may never have touched mmos before which is a win.  There's so much choice available for all types of players often without even having to pay an entry fee to try it.  The games that have gone F2P such as Aion and TERA are great examples of honest to goodness free titles with options to pay.   SWTOR is doing better financially than when they were a walled garden but I also have reservations for their draconian measures to grab cash from their customers.  That said success is a good thing especially for a game as high profile as it was.  So yeah no it's not the end.

  • VidirVidir GothenburgPosts: 944Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wordiz

    A few months back I had a post titled, "Soooo bored...." Come to find out, I wasn't the only one waiting for a mmo savior with nothing play. Well here were are again, and I still have nothing to play.

    I've played through Skyrim again and the new Dragonborn xpack. I played Bioshock: Infinite (Incredible game, but short like most shooters), playing Civ 5, bored out of my mind now. 

    As far as MMOs:

    I redownloaded Guild Wars 2 and leveled another character to 80 before finding myself with nothing to do once again. 

    I can't get myself to go back to SWTOR, which seems to be where most of my gaming buddies have gone, but I wish it would just die already. EA will not see a penny from me.

    I'd almost like to play Rift, but not too many people I know play it, and subscriptions have been rejected by most, yet people still pay for WoW. IMO it's probably the best MMO out right now, but not a very good MMO at all in the long run.

    TSW, the questing is fun and such and the dungeons are pretty cool even, but classes are crazy imbalanced and I find myself needing to go back and do quests to get enough skill points to switch to spinny blades instead of my squishy caster...but yeah, no, I don't really have an interest to do so, and within a couple weeks there'd be nothing left to keep me busy anyways.

    Naturally, there's a slew of other games not worth mentioning. Not insult to anyone that plays any of those games. We're all desperate, I understand.

    There's the dated classics, but we're well past the decade mark on a lot of them, those that haven't been shut down or noobified.

    Getting to my point:

    This next batch of promissing MMOs with 2013 release dates, and some of the other titles coming later are seeming more and more to be a last stab at glory for the genre. I know I'm not the only one that's wasted hundreds on disappointing titles. Not just MMOs, ( I know, I'm soooo STUPID! XD. It's what I get for riding the HYPE TRAAAIN!!! XD. I said it, now you can't flamers. Trolls, feel free.) and I feel a lot of us are too fearful to even buy a game at launch anymore, let alone pre-order.

    So to reiterate: Is this the end of a genre? If the games leaving hype station this year happen to fail (ESO, AA, FFXIV, Defiance, Neverwinter...so on) how many of us are going to lose our faith in the genre completely? I'm not saying I will, but there are others more pessimistic than myself. Is the next batch of MMOs gonna make or break this genre we all love? I think it might.

    Your thoughts please.

    P.S.

    Remember, I'm asking a question, not making a statement (other than my gaming preferences). I know my taste in games may differ from many. I don't pretend to be some ultimate authority, so please don't attack me.

     I agree with most of your writing.

    I started playing mmorpg's about 13 years ago when there only were a handfull of those.It was fun like a drug could not keep your mind from it.

    But things change, back then it was fun playing in a group in those games, that is not so anymore. Grouping is not fun anymore it is frustrating, people are nasty with eachother, one word boring.

    So therfor game changes, people want to have fun playing and therfore games must be soloable or people wont play it.

    Other things that happens now is that more and more games are online games, in few years all games will be online.

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member

    may be not the end (yet) as people still play MMO.

    only now it's very hard to find an MMO can hook you for longtime.

    also, sub MMO seems to run better, but you asking self: why to pay if you can play for free?

    but "free" has lot of hidden costs, and you gonna hit the wall and have choice to pay or to quite (I just quite as I pay only for WoW, personal choice).

    most of game are pretty much similar too, so we getting bored even faster.

    but may be this year we could have fun with some new games. At least I hope for fresh air.

    also after GW2 I'll never buy/pay for any new game before try it (also personal conclusion).

    anyway, let's hope=)

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc PinheiralPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    No, it's not the end of a genre, just the evolution of one.

    This happens in most creative genres. You just find yourself on the side that doesn't like where it's going. Pretty understandable.

    the word EVOLUTION is not an easy word to use, what is evolution for u may be a devolution for me. 

    im sure ure will see it.

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon

    I don't know.  It seems like studios are either sticking to the tried and true formula of quests, gear, trinity, and raids.  Others try to break from that mold.  Either way, I see nothing but choices to cater to a larger demographic.  Not everyone likes the same thing in their games.  However I do see disturbing trends on these forums with people claiming their game is the best because of feature X or feature Y, however it's more of a case they simply like the game and feel those who don't obviously are wrong. The flip side of teh coin is that people will claim a game sucks becuase it has features they DON'T like.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinions about games.  Even ones they don't play or claim to have played.  However, you know what they say about opinions...

    What I'm trying to say is, I don't think the genre is at it's end just becuase some people on these forums say so.  Just like I'm not going to start disliking a game I think is fun, just becuase some random schmoe says the game is bad and his game is better. 

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by wordiz

    Are you trolling by saying I'm a troll? You know, I'm trying to have a discussion here, not a sh*t slinging match. I realize how hopelessly unrealistic this is with some people on here, but come on.

    I think he's implying most people only care about how fun a game is, not how old it is (being old only matters insofar as it might prevent a game from remaining fun.)

    It's like if you said visual media was dead because new platforms haven't surfaced recently -- completely ignoring the fact that existing platforms like youtube, netflix, or cable TV have tons and tons and tons of content to enjoy.  But you reject it simply on account of the platform being old, which sounds rather trollish.

    No, I even said LOTRO was a great game, one of the best I've ever played. As I said, this was about the recent releases that let down a lot of players, and about the next batch coming. Those games were released a while ago. I said nothing about their quality.

    Once again, I'm asking questions here, not making end all statements. I'm enjoying most peoples feedback...

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    As someone who got into MMOs via 'WoW', MMOs are no-where near done for me.

    Age of Wushu looks amazing.

    Wildstar looks cool.

    Nwn:Online looks pretty interesting.

    ES:O looks..... like WOW with an ES name but I'm hopeful it'll be different.

    Recent releases also has tons of content for me; PS2, GW2, SWTOR all have awesome content.

    Best is that most are F2P so you can play without spending a lot of $$$.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    I think you'll find there are some pretty decent offerings coming in the future. The players have spoken with their wallets with the last few years releases and the industry has finally come to realize that we aren't going to shell out our money to play the same tired old games in a shiney new "flavor of the month" wrapper. The era of the EQ/WOW clones is finally ending and the future does look bright with new concepts being developed as we speak. Right now we are in a transitional phase of games that are trying a few new things but the real genre changing titles are probably a few years out yet. With the mediocre at best success of huge games like SWTOR, TSW and RIFT the industry is finally starting to realize that even the "I want it now" crowd isn't going to settle for the same ol' crap forever.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    maybe some of you guys should concider mmos aren't their kind of game :)

     

    mmos are doing fine, we dont need a saviour, it came along time ago. it's developer called it "world of warcraft".

    YOU dont like em, fine. doesn't make em less successfull tho.

     

     

    i mean, if there is a lousy shooter comming out, will you cry "shooters are dieing!!!!!"?

    mmos do fine. 

     

     

    [mod edit]

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • OgrelinOgrelin JonkopingPosts: 636Member

    Perhaps it's like doing drugs, you never get the same fix as you got the first time :)

  • flizzerflizzer Manchester, NHPosts: 1,550Member Uncommon

    End of a genre?     

     

    I feel the opposite.   To me we are entering into a golden age or maybe a rejuvenation of the genre if you consider WoW, which might be the first golden a age.  So many awesome options to choose from!   Never before have people been able to select from so many different games.  A surfeit of riches I would say!

     

    I feel fortunate to be playing MMOs at this time.  We are seeing Richard Garriort and Marc Jacobs returning and bringing us the type of games they do best.   I can't wait to see what new games they will bring!

  • AbimorAbimor phoenix, AZPosts: 329Member Uncommon
    I don't know if this is the end, for me it could be. I played swg before the combat upgrade and then went to daoc and played that till lotro came out. Turbine has runied lotro for me with the way expansions have been handled and the constant tinkering with classes like switching the warden from agility to might and then back to agility. Also they seem to be focusing on the lotro store to much by adding new content to it all the time ((like new mounts and such)). Maybe I have just played lotro for to long and have seen it go from wanting a group to not needing one for anything except dungeons. Right now I am playing Vanguard and enjoying it, but i don't see any new games coming out that I am excited about the Elder scrolls look ok but only time will tell. 
  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member
    Originally posted by Thane

    mmos are doing fine, we dont need a saviour, it came along time ago. it's developer called it "world of warcraft".

    WoW is the saviour of MMOs?  That statement deserves a very terse reply...

    Genres do not "evolve" with individual games or players.  Genres are merely a classification system.  "Old arcade games" is a genre, and it will never die because their existed a LOT of games that fell into that genre... Pac-man, Centipede, Galaxian, etc.  Is it a popular genre?  No, I don't think so, at least not in comparison with many modern game genres.

    MMOs set themselves apart not because of their popularity (note that the old Ultima Online / Everquest had subscriber numbers in the hundreds of thousands - which would be quite good even in the modern internet that is over 100 times as big), but because they could entice players to continually pay for a game that did not require a large degree of development from month to month.  Players were paying for the ability to interact with other players (and often telecommunication costs were the prohibitive factor).

    What "changed" in the industry is a result of player insecurity.  Insecure fanatics basically have infiltrated every corner of the internet where the fans of the old MMOs might find a haven.  WoW, as the initial MMO that attempted to cater to the insecure masses, has been the largest contributor to the demise of stable playerbases.  For reference purposes, note that almost every MMO has about 4 to 5 times as many people playing at launch than actually wind up playing for an extended period of time.

    Players are the issue here, not development, and until someone finds a way to filter economically - instability is likely going to continue to be a common feature of all future "MMOs."  Note that many other online gaming genres that do not cater to grinding fanatics do perfectly well and are not subject to such instability.

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