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I dislike kickstarter for many reasons. I feel it is such a sucker bait, and personally I feel like most independent companies are actually major corperations in disguise. And I could go on and on. But in all reality aside from some advise or insights, it doesn't really matter what I think. People will do what they want to do ultimately.
Anyways important to understand that PC gamers who fund kickstarters are a very very small percentage of the market. I would venture to guess most have never or will never even hear about it.
The PC will continue to be a platform far beyond other platforms simply because the PC's are there. Let me explain. I own a PC for a variety of reasons, communications, work, video, games, etc, etc. If gaming dried up for a few years or even 10 years I would still own a PC, its a very useful tool to me, and I feel that many other people feel that way. Just by virtue of that, that there are so many PC's in the world for whatever reason, the platform will continue to be used for the sales of games. Its a large access point that will most likely not go anywhere anytime soon.
My personal opinion would be that kickstarter will have very little effect on the gaming market, be it PC or MMO or whatever. Success or failure will largely only effect small niche audiances in the way of happiness or anger. So OP dont worry about it to much.
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi over half a billion will go into to kickstarter in the next 2 years , that cuts into the total market share of "published" games by about 3/5'ths total pc gaming market. With big puiblishers see that they lost market shares in the "platform" do to kickstarter, they will simply refuse to publish for the platform.
What a bunch of idiotic scaremongering, you sound worse than those idiots that said the last generation of consoles would kill off PC gaming.
You don't need to worry, all of you favorite "games" will still be made. The big publishers are already milking people like you for far more than then products they produce are worth, kickstarter isn't going to scare them away from anything.
I see a lot of assumptions, with no backing, kickstarter will not keep companies from making games....The only reason they would stop making a game is if they think they cannot make any money on it... If kickstarter games are better than big company games, and it makes them stop competing, then the big companies are way more incompetant than anyone thinks they are.
I see zero chance that kickstarter is going to stop EA, SoE, Blizzard/Activision and others from making games on the PC.
As I stated earlier, I have not funded anything yet, so it isn't like I am defending my choice.
Also, if I were to give someone $5 to $30, it would have zero effect on me buying any other game, and when/if that game came out, and the kickstarter company made a hit, guess what, they may become the next big company that you are worried will be hurt by kickstarter, I see more chance of that, then kickstarter being the death of anything (besides kickstarter).
Originally posted by redcapp One need only take a cursory glance at a list of highest funded PC games to know the OP is pure nonsense.
Yeah, this pretty much says it all. The highest funded game, Star Citizen pretty much blows his whole argument about Kickstarter right out the door. Just the demo Chris Roberts played at GDC would melt a Xbox 360 into a puddle of goo... lol
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by BizkitNL Originally posted by Eir_S Originally posted by redcapp One need only take a cursory glance at a list of highest funded PC games to know the OP is pure nonsense.
Like which? I'm genuinely curious. Also, how many of the top games on the market have been KS games? I'm not sure there's anything inherently wrong with Kickstarter, but I read that the funding success rate is only about 30%. What happens to all the money that's donated? They have to give it back right?
AFAIK: you don't actually pay a dime untill the KS is successfull.
My question is, so what happens after that ,if the product/project never sees completion? Anything can happen from now until 2015 or beyond..
That is the risk. Do your research on a project before you back it. You can even contact the creator via kickstarter with any questions you may have. If the creator is some guy with an idea but no actual know-how that would be something to avoid. If the creator is someone who has worked in the industry and seems trustworthy then do what you think is in your best interests.
Kickstarter is all about backing an idea, whether they want $200 or $2,000,000. Some of them are even only doing a kickstarter to ramp up the speed of the project, it would get finished anyway. I think Pathfinder Online is like that. The successful kickstarter upped the projected release date by a year and the people that donated get their various tier rewards in return for helping the studio making it.
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi Originally posted by Brenelael Originally posted by redcapp One need only take a cursory glance at a list of highest funded PC games to know the OP is pure nonsense.
I'm glad soomeone understood the post, and knows the difference between an aurgumentive conversation over what some of the pposters actually did which was flame me.
I raise concernsq for the the platform I love, and I think it is important to grill every kickstarter campaign that comes along to make sure they are true in their purpose. I do however see a downfull with kicksterstarter if people take advantage of it and prey on jaded gamers.
All it will take is for a couple of these huge kickstarters that have funded to renege on their promises and the kickstarter movement as it pertains to gaming will take a huge hit and many of your concerns will be laid to rest.
I do think some of the concerns over Kickstarter are more than warrented. I also believe that there will be some fallout to be dealt with when successfully backed Kickstarter projects start failing which definitely will happen. I don't however think it will be the end of PC gaming as we know it like some have predicted. I started PC gaming in Monochrome back in the late 70's and since then I've seen people actually in the industry predict the end of PC gaming more times than I can count. All of them were dead wrong every time.
This latest trend of Crowd Funding just gives gamers more options for the future of PC gaming. Will the big companies take notice of some projects that are highly succesful? I'm sure they will but I think you'll find that like the last 35 or so years they will try to cash in on it and not just "pull out" like you are predicting. Will some of these Indy projects get bought up by the big boys? I'm sure they will but this will serve to further enhance PC gaming going into the future as these companies will only buy these games to "Cash in" and not to destroy.
Kickstarter is showing the industry that there is interest in some of these thought to be long dead genres. If anything I think you'll see more imatation from the big companies when some projects are successful. Look at Star Citizen for example. If the game releases and is highly successful (Not a sure thing granted) I personally think the reaction from EA will be another Wing Commander game and not "We better get out of PC gaming... Chris Roberts is getting all of our profits!". Kickstarter if anything will be the start of a whole new era in PC gaming. Will it have some major bumps along the road to get there? Sure it will but it will get there all the same.
This post is retarded, "kickstarter and how it will end pc gaming platform" are you even serious with that stupidity?
The responses defending the current practises are equally moronic. How is more or different ending anything number one, also every other post here is about "how teh WOW clones suxxors".
So themeparks are bad, sandboxes are bad, subscriptions are bad, pay to whatever models are bad, kickstarter is bad, any money changing hands is bad, 100% free charity made games are bad.
Seems to me game developers will see all the hasle involved with trying to please flakey new age gamers and decide making these games is bad.
Except for the garbage games, you will end up with tons of those until the mmorpg market is a wasteland of cheesy banner adds and reskined Korean data harvesters.
Originally posted by azzamasin Originally posted by Fearum Keep buying the big company reskinned horse crap they can't shovel out fast enough to feed the masses. Keep purchaseing from that cash shop to get the new shiney.
Will do, because I like the masses prefer good games with quality production quality and high value over games that couldn't get backed from real investors.
And they know people like you will keep buying whatever they put out even if they just tack on a higher number to the title so its a win win.
Kickstarter has it's ups and downs, of course.
There WILL be less then scrupulous people that use KS for personal gain and profit at the expense of others, of course. That is human nature.
There WILL also be some true success stories coming out of KS that couldn't have been done otherwise. As others here have said, the way the industry works atm, it's the big-wig exec's that control what we play, KS gives us a chance to change all of that. Is there risk? Of course there is, and if you aren't willing to take a risk, then please, do not support a KS drive.
For me, personally, I am willing to give someone like Mark Jacobs fifty beans for the chance to have his game, that I REALLY would love to play, made. Being a FULLY INFORMED ADULT, that is my decision to make.
I can't see how KS, or any crowd-funding projects could possibly lead to demise of the PC as a gaming platform. People have been falsely ringing the death-knell of PC gaming for many years now. First the Sega Dreamcast, with it's online gaming (which, admitadly was far ahead of it's time) signaled the end of PC gaming. Then, the PS2 and (the original) Xbox Live w/ their advanced hardware, and online infrastructures DEFINITELY meant that no one would ever use a PC as a gaming platform again. Of course the 360 and PS3 followed, which were basically PC's custom built exclusively for gaming, w/ PC-like online capabilities, and AGAIN people tried to ring that bell. Now, w/ this KS/crowd-funding "craze", PC gaming is certainly going to die b/c the big "AAA" publishers would feel that KS funded games would take too big a piece of their pie...
I understand the concern for your platform of choice, but I don't see how KS/crowd-funding could pose any sort of threat to anyone. And, as gamers, KS/crowd-funding gives us the opportunity to let OUR voices be heard, and make sure that games that we would love to play, actually have a CHANCE of getting made. Yeah, you could get scammed, or the game could never materialize, or whatever, like I said, if you don't like taking risks, don't support a KSer drive. But, if there's a game you'd really like to play, that you know the big "AAA" publishers would never take a chance on, and you are fully informed of the risk, and willing to take it, please by all means go for it.
Just look at the latest KS "success", a new Torment game! I loved Plaescape:Torment, but we all know that b/c it didn't make a mint for a publisher, we'd most likely never see a good Torment game again, but b/c of KS we will. I am hoping the same happens w/ Marc Jacobs new project...I've been hoping we'd get DAoC 2 for years. In fact, WAR should have been DAoC in a Warcraft skin (still say that would been a friggin awesome game if the devs didn't try to WoW-ify it), but since it wasn't, I'm backing CU.
You're fears are (somewhat) valid. But, just like everything else, it's a matter of risk vs reward, and can be a great opportunity to see games that, in the current state of gaming being controlled by "mega-publishers" like EA and Activision, just wouldn't be made otherwise. If there's a glut of money given to people that don't deliver what they say they will, then KS/crowd-funding will die-off. But even if that does happen, I don't see it ever taking PC gaming with it.
Originally posted by Fearum Originally posted by azzamasin Originally posted by Fearum Keep buying the big company reskinned horse crap they can't shovel out fast enough to feed the masses. Keep purchaseing from that cash shop to get the new shiney.
I'll probably buy the Witcher 3 and enjoy it. I'm not sure what you are really saying anymore. Quality games often come from big publishers. Quality games also often come from indie-like developers. Are you trying to say that all games that are produced by big dev teams and publishers are bad?
Are kickstarters complete nonsense taking advantage of desperate gamers? Of course.
Will they end PC gaming as we know it? wtf?
I'm not a fan of kickstarter and what it's turning the industry into...
But right now, it seems people are up on this new craze. Yet.. they havn't havn't seen the fruit of thier loins yet.. and things might change once they do. Right now kickstarter if all about the 'if' but soon it will be all about the 'what' once some of the projects actually get finished. Then we'll know where kickstarter stands.
As for ruining PC gaming? I highly doubt it. With all the recent news about the next gen of consoles, PC gaming is seriously looking like the only gaming option where the majority of games arn't restricted in some way, be it online only DRM or dumbed down features due to lesser control schemes.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
i founded 1 game ,its Chivalry medieval warfare
i did not make mistake for chivalry . the idea and concept was great and turned out to be a succet. its the game i play the most right now and i love it. its so funny.
if i find another great idea and look promising i will fund again,
so far i had more fun in Indie game made by a small group of devoted people that cost less money then
big company that sell a game for 60$ and only have a couple of hours of fun ,
~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi Wooah yay players can fund the game they've always wanted.. or simply fund more disappointment from sales men that have a good sales pitch ? THeir's a reason why something doe off, it is cause they suck and people didn't want to play the games. I've been looking over the kickstarter games list and I got to say that this is the end of the road for almost every genre on the pc platform. The pc platform was always about the future of the entire gaming genre with consoles playing catch. That is how it should always be, with the technologies we can put into gaming machines, a pc gamer should never be last to get the best. But here we are, last at getting the best, and in our angst of wanted something, kickstarter comes along and all of a sudden it breathes life into games that we really don't need, want or even going to play even if they are released. I was super excited for kickstarter, but as time goes on the inevitable will happen : Time line is missed for release Game Never releases and developers skips town The game is utter garbage cause jonny boy in his garage just wasn't up to the task A big Publisher snatches the title that the community was told was going to be indie big publishers funnel through kickstarter double dipping by getting players to fund a development cycle, then selling the title back to then for 59.99. I refuse to put money down on words, visions, theories or a cool graphic image. I don't care if you are lord British, Brad Mcquaid or Steven Spielberg. if the developer is serious about a game, he will find the proper funding for it, instead of the smoke and mirrors os kickstarter. With that said, almost every pc kickstarter program is for technology that is 4 to 5 years behind consoles. Simply unacceptable. /off soap box
I get how this is theoretically (perhaps even innocently) meant to derail Mr. Jacob's recent KS project with Camelot Unchained. However, this is a man with a solid resume' (Dark Age of Camelot)...he is also human, however (Warhammer), and has promised to meet and exceed the 2 million dollar minimum needed to get this project initially funded. He would not commit career suicide by making false promises, and, considering the state of the mmorpg these days, there is no RPG in the last few mmo's (arguably) and with the rise of mediocre basic meal mmo's with the same same 5 class race combos, I dare say Camelot Unchained is a kickstarter worth investing in.
What is "a game?" Is it what it is, or is it whatever the developer wants it to be on a given day? Because if you are committed to the idea that what you pay for is what you should get, then the developments in the industry lately should have you a bit worried.
Remember. This is an industry that has redesigned games right out from under paying customers (SWG), closed games within months of announcing they were committed to the game long haul (CoH, Tabula Rasa), and failed to deliver what was advertised (Age of Mourning, Dark and Light). And this was before kickstarter, and this includes publishing houses that are marquee players (SOE, NCSoft).
Gamers have always relied on three things to keep them from being scammed:
1) The Retailer. Places like Gamestop and Best Buy are not going to put crap on their shelves, because when the crap is exposed as crap, the onus is going to be on the retailer to refund the product or exchange it. Therefore, buyers for the retail chains constitute a layer of protection for the consumer. Yet with digital distribution, this level of protection is cut out.
2) The Printed Rulebook. Printed rulebooks on how to play the game ensure that game changes are kept to a minimum. They are almost like a de facto "contract" between the producer and the consumer. Because if you change something fundamental (like combat controls), the rulebook provides some evidence that the game wasn't what you purchased that you could use to force a refund. These days, however, printed rulebooks are hard to find...probably exactly because they constrain the developer to keep the core game the same. Some may say that's a good thing, but for those who were ever NGE'd in this business, the lack of fidelity to the rulebook is tantamount to a bait and switch.
3) Professional Investors. Say what you will about "the suits," but these are people that, believe it or not, don't want crap either. But what makes them good for us is that they have the resources, muscle and expertise to do the sort of due dillegence we need. If you are a venture capitalist who throws half a million into a project, you are going to get your audit. You might even have your own independent auditor on retainer. You also have a kind of "fast track" hotline to the project head by virtue of your stake in the final product. When cost overruns happen or setbacks happen (which they always do), the professional venture capitalist will get the extra money out there quickly to fix the problem. And if the project needs some expertise, the venture capitalist will often provide this expertise, or have connections which will aid in development.
And it's this last point where Kickstarter is going to potentially hurt us.
Kickstart funders can't be compared with professional investors. They don't have the clout or ability to call an audit. You are going to be dealt with by their public relations people as a consumer would, as a nuissance more than a partner, which means you'll get dealt with on their time with their boilerplate spin. If more money is required, you'll have to wait for another kickstarter to cycle through. And as far as expertise is concerned, well, I'm real skeptical that a legion of $20 kickstarter people are going to be much help with anything...except causing a lot of trouble, and making the games worse.
In short, if you believe that you should pay good money for whatever crap a wirehead thinks about giving you on a given day, you should like where this industry is going. But if you want to have a little bit of assurance that what you pay for is what you should get, you should be damn worried these days.
__________________________"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I definitely believe kickstarter could be a great asset to small studios or what have you. The problem is as everybody realizes there's nothing there to hold somebody accountable for these types of investments. So on the likelihood you would be screwed over is probably in the 90 percentile. Now if you have some available cash flow and believe in a project I could understand investing in something. But without accountability to these projects you may as well just go buy a lottery ticket and hope for the best. And to put it into common terms you have 1:160 million chance in winning the jackpot.
As for ending the PC gaming platform. This just makes me laugh for many reasons. There's no way this would and the PC gaming platform. As that every development studio is pushing hardware to their limits to ensure that their game stands out above the rest. And as it stands only PC is the most customizable in regards to power for applications and games. These two reasons alone solidify PC gaming will be around for many years. Probably within 5 to 7 years you will see mobile gaming hit a high point but this will be most likely in conjunction with PC gaming. In other words allowing you to access your PC game and do things within the environment from your mobile device.
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi Originally posted by Comaf Originally posted by Dren_Utogi .........
Excuse me, but there are hundreds of Kickstarter campaigns on the KS website. This is turning into a billion dollar rackateer website that no one knows where the money is actually going.
As far as CU, it is dead to me.
Anyone is annoyed with the big Cu KS image, right click it, select image properties and then select "block image in the lower left corner"
Again, as in any endevour, there are sure to be less-than-scroupulous people looking to take advantage of the public at large. But, calling the whole of KS and crowdfunding racketeering is just, well, it's not correct. As an adult, if you don't do your research, and due dilligence, then you get what you deserve if it fails. If, after that, it doesn't meet your standards than by all means don't contribute. But if it does, and you feel good enough about putting your hard-earned money into a project you support, more power to you.
As far as CU being dead to you b/c of the way it's being funded, even if it succesfully releases....that's just daft.
Fine, you aren't into the type of game it is, or it doesn't have features you are interested in. But b/c of the way it's being funded? What do you give a shit HOW it was made (the game being solely funded by known heroin dealers, child molestors, or rapists aside)?
I'm starting to wonder if you aren't just a troll now. I could believe you being worried about your gaming platform of choice, or just speakng out againt crowdfunding b/c you find it suspect...but between 'CU being dead to you', and the whole 'anyone annoyed w/ the KS image' blocking instructions I have to wonder what your intentions really are.