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I hope everyone remembers that promises mean NOTHING.

theDukeytheDukey s, FLPosts: 98Member

Not trying to hate on the game, but look at WAR and remember what was promised in the game, and what was never achieved.  Probably a much bigger budget, a bigger dev team, etc.  I loved WAR while I played it, but the amount of unfinished things in the game really brought it down in the end. 

While its great to hype games, kickstarters are a fad now, and Mark Jacobs hasnt done anything more than show hes a one hit wonder so far.

I really hope the game turns out to be great, have a lot of friends who would play this instantly if it was anything like DAOC was in terms of pvp.

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Comments

  • PRX_sklurbPRX_sklurb New York, NYPosts: 167Member
    Mark wasn't "in the zone" with that whole EA / WAR thing. So many factors outside his design control. Hindsight seems to have brought him back full circle to a place where he was about to develop one of the greatest RvR games ever.

    CLICK: »»» http://CamelotUnchained.net «««

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  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member
    Feel better that you've gotten that out of your system?  Regardless, pass the word to your friends.  Thanks!

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

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  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Fair enough. But that is true for any MMO. GW 2, for instance, turned out very differently (and worse) from how I expected even though I pre-purchased and got to play in all the beta weekend events. And SWTOR's game engine turned out to be garbage for anything beyond small instanced PvP warzones. From the Foundational Principles and forum posts Mark has made, I feel fairly confident that CU won't have most of the things that I disliked about WAR's and GW 2's RvR and will be a lot more like DAOC especially from that game's early years. I'd still like to get a lot more information about how progression works and any details they can tell us about classes, races, and itemization.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • taus01taus01 MunichPosts: 1,352Member
    Originally posted by PRX_sklurb
    Mark wasn't "in the zone" with that whole EA / WAR thing. So many factors outside his design control. Hindsight seems to have brought him back full circle to a place where he was about to develop one of the greatest RvR games ever.

    He wasn't "in the zone" the last 12 years. Not exactly promising if you ask me. I honestly don't know what to think of this. It can go either way and a 50/50 chance is not enough for me to give them my money.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

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  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    What's the point of this thread?  Seriously.  What discussion are you trying to have?

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    Feedback that isn't constructive is essentially just venting or complaining. We all know his history, we all know CU is a gamble based on a pile of hopes, dreams, philosophy, and a guy that is trying to make a Rocky style comeback, and most of us are happy to put money into it because at this point in MMO history I'd pay more for sound philosophy than another typical MMO that isn't trying to advance the genre.

  • theDukeytheDukey s, FLPosts: 98Member

    Originally posted by PRX_sklurb
    Mark wasn't "in the zone" with that whole EA / WAR thing. So many factors outside his design control. Hindsight seems to have brought him back full circle to a place where he was about to develop one of the greatest RvR games ever.

    Not really an excuse at all to half ass something, or push it before its ready.  Blame EA all you want, but in the end it was the dev team that did it.

     

    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
    Feel better that you've gotten that out of your system?  Regardless, pass the word to your friends.  Thanks!

    Already have :)  Games not coming out for years, so no real need to worry yet. 

     

    Originally posted by meddyck
    Fair enough. But that is true for any MMO. GW 2, for instance, turned out very differently (and worse) from how I expected even though I pre-purchased and got to play in all the beta weekend events. And SWTOR's game engine turned out to be garbage for anything beyond small instanced PvP warzones. From the Foundational Principles and forum posts Mark has made, I feel fairly confident that CU won't have most of the things that I disliked about WAR's and GW 2's RvR and will be a lot more like DAOC especially from that game's early years. I'd still like to get a lot more information about how progression works and any details they can tell us about classes, races, and itemization.

    SWTOR was garbage from the start.  Not a good idea, and ruined any potential star wars MMO to replace galaxies ever.  RPG inside an MMO?  Voice acting made up most of the budget for that terrible game.

    Yeah guild wars 2 is something i give a pass to.  If there was a monthly sub, I could hate it, but since I can go back anytime freely I don't mind! 

    I hope he has a fresh mind and development path for this.  Its very easy to put together pretty charts and a nice presentation on kickstarter to ask for money.  It gets plenty of people hoping for something, which they have no guarantee will happen to their liking.  If WAR was a success but he just wasnt happy with the way it was going, and wanted to make his PvP game, I would believe in the guy.  Right now, its just empty promises!

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon
    You aren't any fun at parties are you?

    You stay sassy!

  • MasahikoKobeMasahikoKobe Plantation, FLPosts: 51Member
    Originally posted by theDukey

    Not trying to hate on the game, but look at WAR and remember what was promised in the game, and what was never achieved.  Probably a much bigger budget, a bigger dev team, etc.  I loved WAR while I played it, but the amount of unfinished things in the game really brought it down in the end. 

    While its great to hype games, kickstarters are a fad now, and Mark Jacobs hasnt done anything more than show hes a one hit wonder so far.

    I really hope the game turns out to be great, have a lot of friends who would play this instantly if it was anything like DAOC was in terms of pvp.

    I dont get your last point, if you hope something turns out like DAoC with the combat why not put money in and MAKE SURE that it comes out how you want it. Backing a project means you have a say in how things come out. There are some low tiers that are pretty minimal risk that allow you to have a hand in the conversations that will be going on.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Noted, OP. Thanks for the warning. I appreciate your selfless concern for us. It's admirable that you would express this kimd of concern for complete strangers, but you can rest assured that the backers for this project are not only VERY well-informed about Mark Jacobs' history, but also understand the risks of crowdfunding in general. We just have a vastly different perspective, and are willing to bet on that perspective in light of the concepts presented thus far.

    We are ok, buddy. Thank you for your altruistic attempt to save us from ourselves. Have a good one!
  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by theDukey

    SWTOR was garbage from the start.  Not a good idea, and ruined any potential star wars MMO to replace galaxies ever.  RPG inside an MMO? 

     

    Mmos are rpgs. Just because they are done poorly does not change this.

    You stay sassy!

  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon

    Many of the modern conviences we enjoy today were once thought of as just wishful thinking.  But through persistance, they eventually were funded and made a reality.

    Sometimes you just have to follow your gut and take that leap of faith.  

    For me, I feel it strongly enough to contribute.  The future will be my judge.  But I am pretty sure I made A wise decision.

    Grog

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    What's the point of this thread?  Seriously.  What discussion are you trying to have?

    Eh.. on the front it's an attempt at a "discussion" but hopefully MMORPG will see that it's really just an attempt to stir up the community/trolling.  

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

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  • theDukeytheDukey s, FLPosts: 98Member

    Originally posted by MasahikoKobe

    Originally posted by theDukey

    Not trying to hate on the game, but look at WAR and remember what was promised in the game, and what was never achieved.  Probably a much bigger budget, a bigger dev team, etc.  I loved WAR while I played it, but the amount of unfinished things in the game really brought it down in the end. 

    While its great to hype games, kickstarters are a fad now, and Mark Jacobs hasnt done anything more than show hes a one hit wonder so far.

    I really hope the game turns out to be great, have a lot of friends who would play this instantly if it was anything like DAOC was in terms of pvp.

    I dont get your last point, if you hope something turns out like DAoC with the combat why not put money in and MAKE SURE that it comes out how you want it. Backing a project means you have a say in how things come out. There are some low tiers that are pretty minimal risk that allow you to have a hand in the conversations that will be going on.

    The money doesnt get to them if the funding goal isnt reached right?  Trust me just because you toss some pennies at them, doesnt mean you will have a say.  Its not like people had a say in WAR's development, even though some, like myself, beta tested it for over a year before public betas happened.    Unless you do a top tier, chances are you are a fly on the wall, you wont get acknowledged by the dev team once!  Not being a jerk here, but its the truth!  I'll be interested in this game once they start demonstrating the game, until then, fancy presentations mean nothing and are extremely easy to do!

    Because I've been burnt by contributing, preordering, beta testing, and putting hopes into many games, I will never trust another one!

     

    Originally posted by PerfArt
    Noted, OP. Thanks for the warning. I appreciate your selfless concern for us. It's admirable that you would express this kimd of concern for complete strangers, but you can rest assured that the backers for this project are not only VERY well-informed about Mark Jacobs' history, but also understand the risks of crowdfunding in general. We just have a vastly different perspective, and are willing to bet on that perspective in light of the concepts presented thus far.

    We are ok, buddy. Thank you for your altruistic attempt to save us from ourselves. Have a good one!

    Big words made me have to google some of them!

    I'm sure some people are very well informed, but being well informed doesnt mean they should act on emotions or false hopes!  Trust me I would love a game that built on DAOC's base pvp system, but talk is cheap since the world has hundreds of MMO's to choose from, majority of which are complete garbage or copycat games! 

     

    Originally posted by Tamanous
    You aren't any fun at parties are you?

    Originally posted by Tamanous

    Originally posted by theDukey

    SWTOR was garbage from the start.  Not a good idea, and ruined any potential star wars MMO to replace galaxies ever.  RPG inside an MMO? 

     

    Mmos are rpgs. Just because they are done poorly does not change this.

    Not nice :(  Yes MMORPG has RPG in it, but the way SWTOR did it, it was an RPG inside of an MMORPG.  They should of hired more staff to get more content out and fix bugs instead of spend that massive budget on voice acting and side story animations.

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon

    I dunno, people seem to think they need to tell us why they don't want to support the KS and think it is their duty to tell people how to manage their disposable income.

     

    All the supporters know there is risk involved, there is little point in trying to convince us of that.

     

    Based on Mark's FPs, interviews and posts we believe that CU is the type of game we would like to play and is therefore worth supporting.

     

    I don't see any other companies that are trying to design good RVR. Mark has been involved with both good and bad RVR systems, so I believe he is in as good as position as anybody to make this work.

  • Father_JackFather_Jack Portland, ORPosts: 81Member

    Whenever someone starts a post/ comment/ sentence with a disclaimer like "Not trying to hate on the game, but...". You know that what follows will definitely prove that disclaimer false.

     

     

     

  • EllyaEllya leylandPosts: 99Member

    Yes, I'm probably feeding the troll, but it really annoys me when people come on forums and make remarks that clearly show they don't understand what's going on.

    OP, have you read the Foundation Principles?  Do you have any idea of the vision for this game?

    Do you think that someone can't learn from past mistakes?

    Do you really think we're all stupid enough to believe that  it's going to be the Holy Grail and the answer to all our prayers? 

    We're backing it because we BELIEVE that it might work, that it might have a chance to be what we're looking for.

    We're backing it because Mark Jacobs has been open and honest about his past successes and failures. Mark is a dreamer and an idealist, and he's said things in the past that he hoped would happen, and then didn't. Yep, he's human, as are we.  He's made promises in the past that he was forced to break. Ok.. that's how it goes when you're not in control of the money.

    See, this is why he's gone to Kickstarter. He wants to be in control, he wants to live or die by his promises, and be responsible for the outcome. No money men in the background forcing his hand.

    And we're backing it because we know that he's capable of making a game we want to play. If it all turns out rubbish then so be it, but right now, we're hopeful.

    Simple, really.

     

  • theDukeytheDukey s, FLPosts: 98Member

    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    What's the point of this thread?  Seriously.  What discussion are you trying to have?

    Eh.. on the front it's an attempt at a "discussion" but hopefully MMORPG will see that it's really just an attempt to stir up the community/trolling.  

    I don't know why sharing a different view is considered trolling.  Are these forums that bad these days?

     

    Originally posted by Father_Jack

    Whenever someone starts a post/ comment/ sentence with a disclaimer like "Not trying to hate on the game, but...". You know that what follows will definitely prove that disclaimer false.

    So true!  Although I didnt hate on the game, maybe by the end of this I'm curious as to why people give faith into developers who have done nothing to earn it.

  • theDukeytheDukey s, FLPosts: 98Member
    Originally posted by Ellya

    Yes, I'm probably feeding the troll, but it really annoys me when people come on forums and make remarks that clearly show they don't understand what's going on.

    OP, have you read the Foundation Principles?  Do you have any idea of the vision for this game?

    Do you think that someone can't learn from past mistakes?

    Do you really think we're all stupid enough to believe that  it's going to be the Holy Grail and the answer to all our prayers? 

    We're backing it because we BELIEVE that it might work, that it might have a chance to be what we're looking for.

    We're backing it because Mark Jacobs has been open and honest about his past successes and failures. Mark is a dreamer and an idealist, and he's said things in the past that he hoped would happen, and then didn't. Yep, he's human, as are we.  He's made promises in the past that he was forced to break. Ok.. that's how it goes when you're not in control of the money.

    See, this is why he's gone to Kickstarter. He wants to be in control, he wants to live or die by his promises, and be responsible for the outcome. No money men in the background forcing his hand.

    And we're backing it because we know that he's capable of making a game we want to play. If it all turns out rubbish then so be it, but right now, we're hopeful.

    Simple, really.

     

    Again, how is sharing a different view trolling.  You seem to be nice enough, surely you can understand that.

    I'm pretty sure past mistakes were DAOC, then WAR came and that was a complete failure with promises made to the DAOC community, and people who believed in the Warhammer IP. 

    And yes people are complete idiots.  Thats not saying you are, but people in general are.  They will back anything that looks or sounds nice. 

  • SorninSornin Richmond, BCPosts: 1,133Member

    I still find it a bit funny that some people point at WAR as a massive failure, like it did nothing right and completely flopped and died.

    It was a bit of a disappointment, yes, but it did a lot of things well. Public Quests have been copied and put into almost every new MMORPG in some form (Rift, Guild Wars 2, etc.). The Tome of Knowledge was bloody brilliant and I still have not seen an MMORPG do something that ambitious with their lore/achievement tracking.

    I liked a lot of the scenarios, but I did find the open-world PvP to be a bit lacking, and I admit the overall PvE aspect of the game needed work.

    Still, complete tragedy? Not at all. I played it for nearly 6 months in the closed beta, and for about that much post-release. Had it changed just a few things and polished its PvE game, it may be a different story.

    As to the topic specifically, being cautious is good, but being cynical is usually not. It is up to each individual on whom to trust and who you feel will keep their word. I trust Mark and CSE will do a good job. It may not turn out perfectly, or exactly what each of us wants, but such goals are impossible.

    image

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by theDukey

    So true!  Although I didnt hate on the game, maybe by the end of this I'm curious as to why people give faith into developers who have done nothing to earn it.

    Obvious trolling to feed your desperate need for attention.

     

    The whole point of the KS is to determine if there is enough interest to develop a niche game.

     

    Do you understand the concept of pitching an idea? People dont spend time and money on projects that do not have a sufficient level of interest.

     

    If you think a dev is going to spend a few months developing an alpha before it has funding then you are pretty naive.

  • CU_now_pleaseCU_now_please londonPosts: 47Member
    So true!  Although I didnt hate on the game, maybe by the end of this I'm curious as to why people give faith into developers who have done nothing to earn it.

    They have earnt it... They have created an idea, they are sharing it. They are putting their principles for what they want from the game out there for people to judge, they can't make the game they want (4tehpe0pol) before funding, and if a publisher got their mits on it, it might not be the same. If every gamer knew about this there is no doubt it would fund KS.

     

     

    And as someone who got hurt from people not listening during beta testing i'm sure this would be the perfect rebound for you...

    /anon

  • theDukeytheDukey s, FLPosts: 98Member

    Originally posted by Sornin

    I still find it a bit funny that some people point at WAR as a massive failure, like it did nothing right and completely flopped and died.

    It was a bit of a disappointment, yes, but it did a lot of things well. Public Quests have been copied and put into almost every new MMORPG in some form (Rift, Guild Wars 2, etc.). The Tome of Knowledge was bloody brilliant and I still have not seen an MMORPG do something that ambitious with their lore/achievement tracking.

    I liked a lot of the scenarios, but I did find the open-world PvP to be a bit lacking, and I admit the overall PvE aspect of the game needed work.

    Still, complete tragedy? Not at all. I played it for nearly 6 months in the closed beta, and for about that much post-release. Had it changed just a few things and polished its PvE game, it may be a different story.

    As to the topic specifically, being cautious is good, but being cynical is usually not. It is up to each individual on whom to trust and who you feel will keep their word. I trust Mark and CSE will do a good job. It may not turn out perfectly, or exactly what each of us wants, but such goals are impossible.

    Very well put.  Yes some ideas were copied into other games, if not most games these days.  The problem with WAR was every design element they promised during closed testing, interviews, etc was scrapped for a lesser design element.  City sieging was supposed to be the core of the game and it was dumbed down to a much lesser event.  PvP was the core of WAR, PvE was extremely bland because of this.  Keep sieges were broken in many ways, and the fun was taken out of it due to skills being broken to allow people to infiltrate keeps and break sieges.  Scenarios were broken for a long time, could only run the beach one for who knows how long (serpeants passage?).  The game was extremely fun leveling up to 40 though, once you hit it, since RvR was so screwed up, it ruined the rest of the game.

     

    Originally posted by Nihilist

    Originally posted by theDukey

    So true!  Although I didnt hate on the game, maybe by the end of this I'm curious as to why people give faith into developers who have done nothing to earn it.

    Obvious trolling to feed your desperate need for attention.

     

    The whole point of the KS is to determine if there is enough interest to develop a niche game.

     

    Do you understand the concept of pitching an idea? People dont spend time and money on projects that do not have a sufficient level of interest.

    I understand that if he was such a big dreamer, and had a love for this project, he would of dumped his money into it already and put out more than just a fancy presentation.  I thought these days to do a kickstarter you had to have a working product, simply because of all the fraud thats happened already.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by theDukey

    Originally posted by Sornin

    I still find it a bit funny that some people point at WAR as a massive failure, like it did nothing right and completely flopped and died.

    It was a bit of a disappointment, yes, but it did a lot of things well. Public Quests have been copied and put into almost every new MMORPG in some form (Rift, Guild Wars 2, etc.). The Tome of Knowledge was bloody brilliant and I still have not seen an MMORPG do something that ambitious with their lore/achievement tracking.

    I liked a lot of the scenarios, but I did find the open-world PvP to be a bit lacking, and I admit the overall PvE aspect of the game needed work.

    Still, complete tragedy? Not at all. I played it for nearly 6 months in the closed beta, and for about that much post-release. Had it changed just a few things and polished its PvE game, it may be a different story.

    As to the topic specifically, being cautious is good, but being cynical is usually not. It is up to each individual on whom to trust and who you feel will keep their word. I trust Mark and CSE will do a good job. It may not turn out perfectly, or exactly what each of us wants, but such goals are impossible.

    Very well put.  Yes some ideas were copied into other games, if not most games these days.  The problem with WAR was every design element they promised during closed testing, interviews, etc was scrapped for a lesser design element.  City sieging was supposed to be the core of the game and it was dumbed down to a much lesser event.  PvP was the core of WAR, PvE was extremely bland because of this.  Keep sieges were broken in many ways, and the fun was taken out of it due to skills being broken to allow people to infiltrate keeps and break sieges.  Scenarios were broken for a long time, could only run the beach one for who knows how long (serpeants passage?).  The game was extremely fun leveling up to 40 though, once you hit it, since RvR was so screwed up, it ruined the rest of the game.

     

    Originally posted by Nihilist

    Originally posted by theDukey

    So true!  Although I didnt hate on the game, maybe by the end of this I'm curious as to why people give faith into developers who have done nothing to earn it.

    Obvious trolling to feed your desperate need for attention.

     

    The whole point of the KS is to determine if there is enough interest to develop a niche game.

     

    Do you understand the concept of pitching an idea? People dont spend time and money on projects that do not have a sufficient level of interest.

    I understand that if he was such a big dreamer, and had a love for this project, he would of dumped his money into it already and put out more than just a fancy presentation.  I thought these days to do a kickstarter you had to have a working product, simply because of all the fraud thats happened already.

    Nope you don't and that can be a concern.  He has an idea - nothing more.

     

    People are acting like it is the next appearance of Christ - it is a game that may or may not  be made. It is at least several years from publication - why don't people take a wait and see attitude....

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • OgrelinOgrelin JonkopingPosts: 636Member

    Because we really really want a game like this made and we have been waiting for it many years.

    The main thing with a Kickstarter is that the backers will have a hand in the design process, we never have had that chance before and we would never have it if for an example EA was the producer.

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