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A Hard Sell
Speely
Member CommonPosts: 861
Camelot: Unchained has so much promise for a new style of online gaming that this Kickstarter is starting to give me anxiety. I feel like there is a contingent of us that take for granted all we know about the concepts espoused by CSE and what they mean as a whole, especially when colored by the knowledge of what DAoC was in it's Golden Age. I see a lot of naysaying posts, and some have valid points, while others seem to misunderstand the very concept of the game.
To be more precise: I think many are just reading bulletpoints like "Mark Jacobs," "no PvE," "5 classes per realm," etc, and applying them to the template of games they have already played, perhaps unaware that CU is aiming to be a different kind of game than any that have gone before. There is no real template that can be applied to it. Caveat: it is also aiming to be an "old school" hardcore mmorpg. These things seem conflicting, but they are not. They are trying to use what we loved about old school mmorpgs and magnify the things that were best about them, while adding dynamics that have not really been attempted before.
So I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the way CSE wants to make these various elements intertwine to create something that PLAYERS can create; creating creativity, so to speak. And that's the brilliance of this model. They are able to keep costs lower by having little to no PvE, but that ultimately benefits us, as there will be a real chance for us to make the stories, divorced from the distraction of being pulled AWAY from player conflict and interaction by scripted interaction. It's a perfect KS model in theory.
Perhaps many people don't know that this is a NEW dev team, and only think of MJ when they think of CU. Perhaps they were disappointed by ToA or WAR. Well fair enough, but for every misstep MJ has made, he has struck gold. DAoC's triumph outshines WAR's mistakes in the annals of mmorpg history, i strongly feel. Shrouded Isles, to me, stands out as a fantastic way to make an expansion, while ToA wasn't bad at all outside of forcing PvE grinding in order to engage in RvR. The actual design was not bad, and if it wasn't neccessary to compete, would have been fine. People would not have been so mad about ToA if they didn't absolutely love DAoC in the first place.
Conversely, there are obviously many gamers who merely prefer PvE, or a mix of PvE and PvP, and don't mind if one affects the other. That's understandable. To each his/her own, and there are tons of games out there like that. It's a popular model, but I am not sure how more people aren't jaded by the lack of innovation. Then again, I think a lot of people just wanna have some casual fun, and more power to them!
Perhaps some people are less excited by design concepts and prefer to see an already partially developed game before commiting. And that's fine. Not everyone gets excited purely by design. Actually MOST people don't.
TL;DR I just think that some of these gameplay concepts are kinda heady and hard to communicate just by saying "Hey guys! CU is going to be awesome because of features 1, 2, and 3", because the features of the game require some consideration in relation with each other in order to fully appreciate any ONE of them. And that is not an easy sell. I hope we as a community and CSE as a developer are able to reach enough people who ARE excited by these things, because if this sonovabitch doen't fund, I am going to be the saddest Spraggon in all of Spragonsville.
Comments
Well, the thing is that Camelot Unchained is very clearly targeting the niches of those who love PvP/RvR and/or crafting to the almost total exclusion of PvE. The "exclusion of PvE" part, like you mentioned, will turn away most players right away.
Another group they are targeting, a more mixed group, are those who want MMORPGs to go back to their roots as being socially driven, where the story is centred on players and unscripted, rather than on what the developers came up with. I hope that excites people a lot more, a game that actually requires getting to know your realm, invest in your character, and team up to survive. That sounds scary to some people ("I have to actually interact with others in an online, virtual world - horror!"), but it is how a game gets a dedicated fanbase with longevity.
CSE is making their job a bit harder than it has to be, though. They need to realize that most players are not going to do much research before making a call; I feel your average person is not prepared to look at websites, read foundational principles, go on forums, etc. They need to make their pitch clear, concise, and enticing.
They also need to really reach out to groups that should be falling head over heels for this game. Find out how to pitch it to ex-Shadowbane players, of which there are hundreds of thousands - this game is going to be as much like DAoC as that, in my opinion (Shadowbane had tons of great concepts, honestly). What about Star Wars Galaxies players who loved the focus on crafting a deep community involvement? They should be going nuts! Not a day goes by one of them laments SWG and NGE.
Finally, the players are doing what they can to spread awareness, but CSE needs to be doing whatever they can to get media outlets to cover their game. It is tough when you have little to show in tangible content, I know, but all of their awesome updates, like the tech demo and now the TDD video, should be carried where gamers can see them. This is not happening on the level I hoped it would.
I hear ya on that one brother, I will be just as sad as you!
Have been waiting years for a game with some promise to be released. Tried WoW, Aion, Rift, and a few others, even went back to DAoC for a bit.
I love PvP/RvR.
But after seeing how WAR Online died, I fear spending money on Camelot Unchained.
Monthly fee in a PvP game is not solid these days.
There's no gameplay or anything yet from this game so I have to hold back.
Nice writeup PerfArt. I'm in the same ballpark as you when it comes to the belief that this game has the potential to change the MMO landscape in some way.
However, and this is a direct advice to you: Don't hope for this game to be your savior, that would be unfair to yourself and to the game. The fact that you're already so involved in this and have so much anticipation means the bar is set so high intercontinental flights might hit it.
Having said that, im an daoc player and a CU backer, and im anticipating a really good game. But truthfully, over the next year I hope that my own expectations will come down a bit, so that when CU comes out I will enjoy it, and not be surprised that my expectation of the game is totally different than the final end result.
Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
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3,5k online ppl in daoc gave action everywhere from PvE to PvP
2k online ppl did the same.
Now imagine there is only PvP.
Even with 1k ppl online there is plently of action.
Monthly fee at 7-10$ ratio is not bad for a niche game. How would you fund expanstions without it. People who PvP rarely buy cosmetic stuff.
It seems risky, but I think that while F2P is here to stay, gamers will tire of it and the recent love it is getting will wither.
When a game is F2P, the developers have to design around that and force monetization techniques into the DNA of the game. There is no such thing as a free ride; if a gameis F2P, you either play freely and deal with inconveniences designed to get you to pay to avoid them (resurrection scrolls, respec tokens, faster crafting, etc. - the list goes on forever) or you pay lots to power past them.
I like games, particularly competitive ones, like CU will be, to not need to have that built into their DNA. The game can be designed to be fair, balanced, and fun, relying on the constant subscription fees to fund it, and not worry about having to put up stupid barriers for people to pay to get around.
Look at Neverwinter - Cryptic swore up and down this would be a truly F2P game, not a freemium game, and that the ZEN store would only be for convenience, etc. This was half-true, but I assure you, as someone who played it in all the beta tests and is an alpha tester (I never login anymore, it is pointless), this game tries to rob you blind if you do not want to deal with the hassles they impose.
I'll gladly pay my subscription, which in CU will likely be no more than $10 per month, and be happy knowing I get everything included.
Thanks, and that's good advice. I am sure it's not going to be the savior of all hardcore mmorpg gamers, but I think the bar has been set low enough lately that anything with even potential promise like this engenders undo and premature veneration from me hehe.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Well there's also b2p / freemium with subscription benefits etc.
THIS !
I think you're hitting the nail on the head here, maybe you should start a new thread on this so that this gem of advice doesn't get lost.
Absolutely agreed. Good points, Sornin, and good idea, Ulorik.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
How grindy will this game be?
How grindy was DAoC regarding gear?
DAoC was pretty grindy, especially ToA.... but even before then.
CU is supposed to have zero grind. Zilch. Nada. All exp is gained in RvR.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Like PerfArt said, it should be nearly impossible for CU to have any grind as there is no game before RvR, the game is RvR. You will not kill rats and deliver care packages to one NPC from another, you will start the game and immediately be able to participate in the conflict, either by fighting, crafting, or building.
I love that.
The facts as we currently know them.
CU is a low budget game being developed by a indie developer. Its main selling points is its a rip off of DAoC, and has Mark Jacobs on its team.
its Cons.
Low budget which has not actually yet been met.
Inexperienced team being lead by MJ the guy that made Warhammer (if you love warhammer and are still playing it consider it a positive, but then if thats true why are you here?
), and the same guy that put the nail in DAoC's coffin with TOA
Game itself is not actually in developement yet. Threy are currently showing off the software and tools that they are working on to develop the game.
Many elements that made DAoC grrat will not be in CU. No PVE means no dungeons, no, monsters and no Darkness falls type dungeons to fight over. In theory if you log in on a slow night there will be no one to fight.
Cool facts, bro. Here is another one: The moon landing was faked!
See, I can pass off opinion as fact, too! It is easy!
Not a DAoC ripoff. Very different proposed gameplay dynamics. Similar setting, but can you really rip yourself off?
Low-budget, yes. 5 mil is not a big budget, but luckily the massive amounts of PvE content that cost so much to create for most mmorpgs will not be here, so it's realistic.
The members of the team are far from inexperienced. The team itself is just new. I think we can all name some great games that came from new development studios.
MJ might have put a nail in the coffin, but he built the best damn coffin ever first. Most people never even do that. Every developer makes mistakes.
True, it is in predevelopment, with the devs being very forthcoming about what they want to do, and a CEO who is putting his career and 2m on the line to do it.
We don't know that there will be no Darkness Falls. All we know is that there will be no leveling or gear drops from PvE. They have actually not ruled out DF. Might be a stretch goal for all we know.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
There won't be a PVE grind, doesn't mean there won't be any grind at all in terms of having to earn the gold to pay for better crafted gear, grind to level up your crafter character to top levels, grind to level up your realm abilities (whatever they call them) to a higher level etc.
My guess is that while you'll be able to participate in the conflict from the get go, you're still going to find yourself at a significant disadvantage in terms of Realm abilities, gear and just plain experience to the more seasoned character and you'll be "grinding" to improve these things to be able to compete more effectively.
Wouldn't be a MMORPG without some form of significant progression curve, which people frequently call "the grind"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Actually, some of what he posted is factual, such as it being a low budget indie game, it certainly will be missing some elements that made DAOC what it was, ( I don't even consider this title to be a spiritual successor in fact) and we haven't seen all that much regarding the game's development.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, by that definition of "the grind," perhaps. However, I only call things a "grind" if they are not fun and what I actually want to be doing. To me, the word has negative connotations, and thus I do not associate it with positive things.
If I want to be crafting and RvRing, and I am doing that, even if I am not at the "top" of the progression curve, I personally do not find that to be grindy. But, everyone's opinion on the subject varies.
Would you like to point out where I was wrong or just counter with BS as you already have? Hey I can admit when I'm wrong wouldn't that be much more satisfy to make me eat crow thwn just posting more opinions? I find that most of the CU fans don't really like facts so much as in CU case there are very little known facts that are positive. Generally it seem CU Fans are more into "CU is gonna be great because I really want a great game."
Once again any facts you can bring to the discussion will only strengthen your case and make you look more like a well informed person. I will admit i don't follow CU enough as to be aas well infomred as some of its fans.
I will also clarify somethings.
1) MJ has experience but the rest of his team AFAIK is fairly inexperienced.
2) Working on software and tools to be used to develop the game is not the same to me as actually working on the the game itself. Working on ideas is not the same as coding . and Concept art that won't actually be in the game is also not IMO working on the game though i admit all these things are needed steps to get to game developement. So yes the whole game is or is not actaully being worked on currently could be opinion.
3) The game hasn't yet made its funding, though it is likely the Kickstarter will make its 2 Million mark
4) MJ himself has said that the game is PVP only which would tend to mean no monsters, thus no dungeons like darkness falls etc to fight over. If you can prove me wrong on this one UI'd be most happy actually
5) do you like Warhammer still play it/? Did you like TOA do you think it made DAoC better? Both of these are indeed opinion questions but in my experience most are saying they don't care for Warhammer and that TOA hurt DAoC more then help it.
Ok I can agree with you on almost of that. New doesn't mean bad as far a teams go, new teams often times have new ideas though they often time will make mistakes more experienced teams will not thus my listing it as a con was ovewrly negative.
DAoC was a great game IMO before TOA os both a pro for creating it and a negative for the TAO? Once again seems i was too negative.
Only thing is I don't see how there can be a darkness falls type dungeon to fight over when theres NO PVE as last I saw MJ was saying himself. I've not seen any KS tiers yet suggesting it as a possibilty.
Your "facts" seemed worded in a very biased manner, making them more opinion. I do not mind differing opinions, but it did not come off as a fair assessment.
You used loaded phrasing like "rip off" and "nail in DAoC's coffin."
I agree there is some truth in a lot of your points, but if the rhetoric were toned down a bit I would have taken the post seriously in the first place.
Well the point of these forums is to discuss...
I don't claim to know everything about CU I'm fairly neutral on it currently (Well thats my opinion anyway
) I'm sure many fans have more up to date information then i do.
Its early here and yes I can see your point my wording did come off biased in a negative manner. My bad, rip off is a bad term could have said spiritual successor to DAoC or something simular. New teams as another pointed out are not always bad. More of a mixed bag in that they may have new idea or do things differently then a older more experienced team but also may make errors a older team might not..
I will follow CU and see how it goes hopefully at some point I will become as optimistic about it as several of you seem. In the mean time should i be over negative feel free to show me the positives or correct me.