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They turned a great sandbox genre into a Themepark.

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  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,557Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by baphamet

     


    Originally posted by Topherpunch
    I am a fan od Elder Scroll, so much that I must protest this game.  I am just going to post all the bad things that I think are very bad ideas. This is not a troll, just a "concerned gamers bad idea, thoughts" post....

     

    Having one PvP area. While I know it is huge I just think putting players in a particular place to PvP is just silly.

    One mega server, this is good if you were playing a game like EvE or Darkfall where there are no instaces.

    Gaining skills and spells..... Not cool

    Targeting..... Why are they ruining the FPS style?

    Not able to join other faction area's until you reach maxed level (This could be a rumor) Why?

    What did you do to the old crafting system from Elder Scrolls? What is wrong with combining regular items to make weird combines?

    Zenimax.....

    The root of all evil.....money. Why is Bethesda giving into corporate walkways? You could have created something amazing.

    These are just some things I think they really messed up on. Personally I wish they would stop what they are doing and remake. Theme park is dead. I know some people really like themepark games, but  (this is an assumtion) I really think that is because they have not been given anything else. If Skyrim was an MMORPG with hundreds of people running around doing what they want and killing who they wanted...... There would be only one.


     

    you simply don't know what a sandbox game is if you think ES is a sandbox.

    ES is a quest driven game, a quest driven game is an exclusive themepark feature.

    just because you could explore on your own and decide not to do the quests if you didn't want to, does not make it a sandbox.

    also, if skyrim was made into a MMO and they didn't change anything, it would be a huge failure in terms of longevity.

    it would basically be SWTOR v 2.0 except with no endgame at all.

     

    He never said ES was a sandbox...

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon

    You are taking a single player game and turning it into an MMO.  It is unfair, and quite frankly unrealistic to expect a lot of the SINGLE PLAYER elements to carry over to a MMO. 

    Stop thinking too much about the previous games in the series.  Just play ESO like it is a new game and judge it on its own merits.

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by tkreep
    Originally posted by baphamet   Originally posted by Topherpunch I am a fan od Elder Scroll, so much that I must protest this game.  I am just going to post all the bad things that I think are very bad ideas. This is not a troll, just a "concerned gamers bad idea, thoughts" post....   Having one PvP area. While I know it is huge I just think putting players in a particular place to PvP is just silly. One mega server, this is good if you were playing a game like EvE or Darkfall where there are no instaces. Gaining skills and spells..... Not cool Targeting..... Why are they ruining the FPS style? Not able to join other faction area's until you reach maxed level (This could be a rumor) Why? What did you do to the old crafting system from Elder Scrolls? What is wrong with combining regular items to make weird combines? Zenimax..... The root of all evil.....money. Why is Bethesda giving into corporate walkways? You could have created something amazing. These are just some things I think they really messed up on. Personally I wish they would stop what they are doing and remake. Theme park is dead. I know some people really like themepark games, but  (this is an assumtion) I really think that is because they have not been given anything else. If Skyrim was an MMORPG with hundreds of people running around doing what they want and killing who they wanted...... There would be only one.
      you simply don't know what a sandbox game is if you think ES is a sandbox. ES is a quest driven game, a quest driven game is an exclusive themepark feature. just because you could explore on your own and decide not to do the quests if you didn't want to, does not make it a sandbox. also, if skyrim was made into a MMO and they didn't change anything, it would be a huge failure in terms of longevity. it would basically be SWTOR v 2.0 except with no endgame at all.  
    He never said ES was a sandbox...

    did you not read the thread title?

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,557Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by baphamet

     


    Originally posted by latentPotential

    Originally posted by jtcgs

    Originally posted by latentPotential

    Originally posted by jtcgs UO = 350k+ EQ1 = 450k+ SWG = 350k+ Lineage = 1 million + Even Final Fantasty 11 had far more players...sorry, I dont ware rose colored glasses when looking at the past, DaoC was not even the top 5 MMO and is very unworthy of bastardizing the TES IP with...hell, WoW isnt even worthy of bastardizing the TES IP, there IS NO NEED TO DO IT, TES can stand on its own with its own base design which we already know can be made into an MMO.
    Since it was pretty much purely a pvp game it was pretty successful for the niche it was aiming for. Suffice it to say it was a commercial success and was the pvp game of its day.   
    No more so than UO or Lineage...next excuse please. P.S. Anarchy Online was a commerical success and it only retained around 10k of its 100k in sales and is still running today and all of its players call it THE PvP game of its day. Same with Asherons Call players who will tell you they would take one single duel in that game over any DaoC fight any day of the week.
    Doac is still running too, I don't understand your point. It was innovative for its day and many have sung its praises over the past decade. I personally didn't play it so you can stop trying to convince me it was a bad game, I don't particularly care, I am speaking strictly from a historical perspective. Doing 3 faction pvp right has been the envy of mmo devs since daoc was released, the details of the game are irrelevant.  What is also irrelevant is your ultranationalist-style loyalty to whatever game you percieve as "best", I also really don't care. 

     

    yeah, you can tell which people played mmo's before wow, none of them (mmo's) were commercially successful back then compared to console and single player games.

    i believe EQ was the most successful (at least in the west) and i think it had like 500k subs at its peak?

    Daoc was a great MMO in its day and many referred to it as the best pvp game.

    but i can see why the post wow mmo player may not like it, even though wow adopted some of its features and implemented it into their game.

    WoW adopted a lot of things from its past mmos but majority of it was from EQ

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by tkreep
    Originally posted by baphamet   Originally posted by latentPotential Originally posted by jtcgs Originally posted by latentPotential Originally posted by jtcgs UO = 350k+ EQ1 = 450k+ SWG = 350k+ Lineage = 1 million + Even Final Fantasty 11 had far more players...sorry, I dont ware rose colored glasses when looking at the past, DaoC was not even the top 5 MMO and is very unworthy of bastardizing the TES IP with...hell, WoW isnt even worthy of bastardizing the TES IP, there IS NO NEED TO DO IT, TES can stand on its own with its own base design which we already know can be made into an MMO.
    Since it was pretty much purely a pvp game it was pretty successful for the niche it was aiming for. Suffice it to say it was a commercial success and was the pvp game of its day.   
    No more so than UO or Lineage...next excuse please. P.S. Anarchy Online was a commerical success and it only retained around 10k of its 100k in sales and is still running today and all of its players call it THE PvP game of its day. Same with Asherons Call players who will tell you they would take one single duel in that game over any DaoC fight any day of the week.
    Doac is still running too, I don't understand your point. It was innovative for its day and many have sung its praises over the past decade. I personally didn't play it so you can stop trying to convince me it was a bad game, I don't particularly care, I am speaking strictly from a historical perspective. Doing 3 faction pvp right has been the envy of mmo devs since daoc was released, the details of the game are irrelevant.  What is also irrelevant is your ultranationalist-style loyalty to whatever game you percieve as "best", I also really don't care. 
      yeah, you can tell which people played mmo's before wow, none of them (mmo's) were commercially successful back then compared to console and single player games. i believe EQ was the most successful (at least in the west) and i think it had like 500k subs at its peak? Daoc was a great MMO in its day and many referred to it as the best pvp game. but i can see why the post wow mmo player may not like it, even though wow adopted some of its features and implemented it into their game.
    WoW adopted a lot of things from its past mmos but majority of it was from EQ

    agreed but they did adopt factions (while not letting you talk to each other) and battlegrounds (even though wow's were instanced)

    but you right, the majority of it was from EQ

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,557Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by baphamet

     


    Originally posted by tkreep

    Originally posted by baphamet  

    Originally posted by Topherpunch I am a fan od Elder Scroll, so much that I must protest this game.  I am just going to post all the bad things that I think are very bad ideas. This is not a troll, just a "concerned gamers bad idea, thoughts" post....   Having one PvP area. While I know it is huge I just think putting players in a particular place to PvP is just silly. One mega server, this is good if you were playing a game like EvE or Darkfall where there are no instaces. Gaining skills and spells..... Not cool Targeting..... Why are they ruining the FPS style? Not able to join other faction area's until you reach maxed level (This could be a rumor) Why? What did you do to the old crafting system from Elder Scrolls? What is wrong with combining regular items to make weird combines? Zenimax..... The root of all evil.....money. Why is Bethesda giving into corporate walkways? You could have created something amazing. These are just some things I think they really messed up on. Personally I wish they would stop what they are doing and remake. Theme park is dead. I know some people really like themepark games, but  (this is an assumtion) I really think that is because they have not been given anything else. If Skyrim was an MMORPG with hundreds of people running around doing what they want and killing who they wanted...... There would be only one.
      you simply don't know what a sandbox game is if you think ES is a sandbox. ES is a quest driven game, a quest driven game is an exclusive themepark feature. just because you could explore on your own and decide not to do the quests if you didn't want to, does not make it a sandbox. also, if skyrim was made into a MMO and they didn't change anything, it would be a huge failure in terms of longevity. it would basically be SWTOR v 2.0 except with no endgame at all.  
    He never said ES was a sandbox...

     

    did you not read the thread title?

    oops my mistake...but i think sandbox to a lot of people it means different things regardless of others opinions of it...And I think to him it means is that he cant go to other factions lands until max level and even that will be a instanced version of them.  To a a lot of gamers sandbox pretty much means a certain amount of freedom even if you dont get to build things in it but to explore places freely whenever you want.  Hell I know people who consider GTA a sandbox.

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by tkreep
    Originally posted by baphamet   Originally posted by tkreep Originally posted by baphamet   Originally posted by Topherpunch I am a fan od Elder Scroll, so much that I must protest this game.  I am just going to post all the bad things that I think are very bad ideas. This is not a troll, just a "concerned gamers bad idea, thoughts" post....   Having one PvP area. While I know it is huge I just think putting players in a particular place to PvP is just silly. One mega server, this is good if you were playing a game like EvE or Darkfall where there are no instaces. Gaining skills and spells..... Not cool Targeting..... Why are they ruining the FPS style? Not able to join other faction area's until you reach maxed level (This could be a rumor) Why? What did you do to the old crafting system from Elder Scrolls? What is wrong with combining regular items to make weird combines? Zenimax..... The root of all evil.....money. Why is Bethesda giving into corporate walkways? You could have created something amazing. These are just some things I think they really messed up on. Personally I wish they would stop what they are doing and remake. Theme park is dead. I know some people really like themepark games, but  (this is an assumtion) I really think that is because they have not been given anything else. If Skyrim was an MMORPG with hundreds of people running around doing what they want and killing who they wanted...... There would be only one.
      you simply don't know what a sandbox game is if you think ES is a sandbox. ES is a quest driven game, a quest driven game is an exclusive themepark feature. just because you could explore on your own and decide not to do the quests if you didn't want to, does not make it a sandbox. also, if skyrim was made into a MMO and they didn't change anything, it would be a huge failure in terms of longevity. it would basically be SWTOR v 2.0 except with no endgame at all.  
    He never said ES was a sandbox...
      did you not read the thread title?
    oops my mistake...but i think sandbox to a lot of people it means different things regardless of others opinions of it...And I think to him it means is that he cant go to other factions lands until max level and even that will be a instanced version of them.  To a a lot of gamers sandbox pretty much means a certain amount of freedom even if you dont get to build things in it but to explore places freely whenever you want.  Hell I know people who consider GTA a sandbox.

    yeah, i know people do that and using their logic i could call almost every mmo a sandbox to some extent.

    but the very definition (and why its called a sandbox) is the players creating their own content, like building a sandcastle in a sandbox.

    having quests and somewhat linear progression (like what the ES single players games have) is a themepark and single game RPG element.

    i like games with a lot of freedom too and feel all mmo's should have a lot of sandbox elements, even the themepark games.

    but when people spread misinformation and call the ES series a sandbox genre and bash TESO for being a themepark, i just have to mention that it actually is a themepark model with sandbox elements.

    as far as his post goes, he seems to want skrim turned into a mmo and that just wont work long term, its very unrealistic to expect that.

    hopefully the next ES single player game will have multi-player options to make people like the OP happy because i do recognize that many people want that option in a ES game, rather than a full blown MMO.

    JMO

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Topherpunch

    I am a fan od Elder Scroll, so much that I must protest this game.  I am just going to post all the bad things that I think are very bad ideas. This is not a troll, just a "concerned gamers bad idea, thoughts" post....

    Having one PvP area. While I know it is huge I just think putting players in a particular place to PvP is just silly.

    One mega server, this is good if you were playing a game like EvE or Darkfall where there are no instaces.

    Gaining skills and spells..... Not cool

    Targeting..... Why are they ruining the FPS style?

    Not able to join other faction area's until you reach maxed level (This could be a rumor) Why?

    What did you do to the old crafting system from Elder Scrolls? What is wrong with combining regular items to make weird combines?

    Zenimax.....

    The root of all evil.....money. Why is Bethesda giving into corporate walkways? You could have created something amazing.

    These are just some things I think they really messed up on. Personally I wish they would stop what they are doing and remake. Theme park is dead. I know some people really like themepark games, but  (this is an assumtion) I really think that is because they have not been given anything else. If Skyrim was an MMORPG with hundreds of people running around doing what they want and killing who they wanted...... There would be only one.

    THANK GOD

     

     

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Topherpunch

    I am a fan od Elder Scroll, so much that I must protest this game.  I am just going to post all the bad things that I think are very bad ideas. This is not a troll, just a "concerned gamers bad idea, thoughts" post....

    Having one PvP area. While I know it is huge I just think putting players in a particular place to PvP is just silly.

    One mega server, this is good if you were playing a game like EvE or Darkfall where there are no instaces.

    Gaining skills and spells..... Not cool

    Targeting..... Why are they ruining the FPS style?

    Not able to join other faction area's until you reach maxed level (This could be a rumor) Why?

    What did you do to the old crafting system from Elder Scrolls? What is wrong with combining regular items to make weird combines?

    Zenimax.....

    The root of all evil.....money. Why is Bethesda giving into corporate walkways? You could have created something amazing.

    These are just some things I think they really messed up on. Personally I wish they would stop what they are doing and remake. Theme park is dead. I know some people really like themepark games, but  (this is an assumtion) I really think that is because they have not been given anything else. If Skyrim was an MMORPG with hundreds of people running around doing what they want and killing who they wanted...... There would be only one.

    THANK GOD

     

     

    Which one? After all there are 8.

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,557Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Topherpunch

    I am a fan od Elder Scroll, so much that I must protest this game.  I am just going to post all the bad things that I think are very bad ideas. This is not a troll, just a "concerned gamers bad idea, thoughts" post....

    Having one PvP area. While I know it is huge I just think putting players in a particular place to PvP is just silly.

    One mega server, this is good if you were playing a game like EvE or Darkfall where there are no instaces.

    Gaining skills and spells..... Not cool

    Targeting..... Why are they ruining the FPS style?

    Not able to join other faction area's until you reach maxed level (This could be a rumor) Why?

    What did you do to the old crafting system from Elder Scrolls? What is wrong with combining regular items to make weird combines?

    Zenimax.....

    The root of all evil.....money. Why is Bethesda giving into corporate walkways? You could have created something amazing.

    These are just some things I think they really messed up on. Personally I wish they would stop what they are doing and remake. Theme park is dead. I know some people really like themepark games, but  (this is an assumtion) I really think that is because they have not been given anything else. If Skyrim was an MMORPG with hundreds of people running around doing what they want and killing who they wanted...... There would be only one.

    THANK GOD

     

     

    Which one? After all there are 8.

    millions if you count Hinduism EDIT: nevermind you mean the ES gods lol

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Squeak69

    which we already know can be made into an MMO.

    people keep saying this but i kinda want to see some source info for it, cause i dont actully agree with it.

    Oh, right...I forgot there are people that dont know about those things called sandbox games.

    People dont know that there were faction based games that didnt have magical walls closing off faction lands...and I am not going to name them all because almost every single faction game ever made did not have DaoCs level of developer hand holding.

    People dont know that there were games with factions, that allowed you to actually choose the faction AFTER creation and even allowed you to switch sides...like...SWG.

    People dont know that there were games with a massive world that wasnt split into three closed off lands...like, ooh, almost every single other game ever made.

    People dont know that an MMO can actually allow a player to train and level up any and ALL crafting...again, if you dont actually know that MMOs did this...I can see why you think the way you do...you dont know much about the genre.

    You know the one thing I havent seen...someone actually make a long detailed list of how TES is not a sandbox game and that it fits into the themepark DaoC RvR where the entire world is at war yet is compeletely safe except in the magical world of neverland behind invisible walls.

    Easy.

    A sandbox game should let me manipulate everything in the game. Lets take minecraft as an example of what a sandbox game is. Everything within that game can be used/manipulated by the player.

    Now lets look at TES (using Skyrim).

    There are trees all over the world. Can I cut any of them down? No. Well it's a sandbox is it not, why can't I?

    The landscapes are also littered with animals. Can I kill them all? No. Can I breed them? No. Again, is this game a sandbox?

    Can I manipulate waterflow to power a wheat mill and grind my own grain to make the finest bread in all of Tamriel? No. Yet there are water streams, mills and even grain within Skyrim. The NPC's can do it, why can't I?

    Can I kill ALL npc's? No.

    Can I build traps in forests to kill bandits? No.

    I've only just scrathed the surfice. There are so many tools in Skyrim that can't be used in a variety of ways. The stupidest example of this in Skyrim is when you need a torch to burn down the hives just outside Riften. You can't burn anything else down with them. It's like all other barn buildings are immune. Probably been enchanted with fire resist or something.

    It's just way to restrictive to be called a sandbox. It's just a non-linear themepark game. All the rides are there to enjoy, you can just enjoy them in any order you decide. Like a real themepark actually.

    Also, a lot of themepark MMO's have better crafting than TES. I can't believe your talking about TES crafting in regard to leveling up. It's a PvE game. You leveled up in a below average crafting system and do what with it? Sell it to NPC's? Equip companions with it?

     

    image
  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Teala
    Do like many of us are doing - and don't buy or play the game.   Simple.   Money speaks louder than any words.

    Or better yet continue to make post after post condeming the game for what its not or what it never will be.  Sadly that is a luxuary will never happen thanks to the anonimity of the interwebz.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Squeak69

    which we already know can be made into an MMO.

    people keep saying this but i kinda want to see some source info for it, cause i dont actully agree with it.

    Oh, right...I forgot there are people that dont know about those things called sandbox games.

    People dont know that there were faction based games that didnt have magical walls closing off faction lands...and I am not going to name them all because almost every single faction game ever made did not have DaoCs level of developer hand holding.

    People dont know that there were games with factions, that allowed you to actually choose the faction AFTER creation and even allowed you to switch sides...like...SWG.

    People dont know that there were games with a massive world that wasnt split into three closed off lands...like, ooh, almost every single other game ever made.

    People dont know that an MMO can actually allow a player to train and level up any and ALL crafting...again, if you dont actually know that MMOs did this...I can see why you think the way you do...you dont know much about the genre.

    You know the one thing I havent seen...someone actually make a long detailed list of how TES is not a sandbox game and that it fits into the themepark DaoC RvR where the entire world is at war yet is compeletely safe except in the magical world of neverland behind invisible walls.

    Easy.

    A sandbox game should let me manipulate everything in the game. Lets take minecraft as an example of what a sandbox game is. Everything within that game can be used/manipulated by the player.

    Now lets look at TES (using Skyrim).

    There are trees all over the world. Can I cut any of them down? No. Well it's a sandbox is it not, why can't I?

    The landscapes are also littered with animals. Can I kill them all? No. Can I breed them? No. Again, is this game a sandbox?

    Can I manipulate waterflow to power a wheat mill and grind my own grain to make the finest bread in all of Tamriel? No. Yet there are water streams, mills and even grain within Skyrim. The NPC's can do it, why can't I?

    Can I kill ALL npc's? No.

    Can I build traps in forests to kill bandits? No.

    I've only just scrathed the surfice. There are so many tools in Skyrim that can't be used in a variety of ways. The stupidest example of this in Skyrim is when you need a torch to burn down the hives just outside Riften. You can't burn anything else down with them. It's like all other barn buildings are immune. Probably been enchanted with fire resist or something.

    It's just way to restrictive to be called a sandbox. It's just a non-linear themepark game. All the rides are there to enjoy, you can just enjoy them in any order you decide. Like a real themepark actually.

    Also, a lot of themepark MMO's have better crafting than TES. I can't believe your talking about TES crafting in regard to leveling up. It's a PvE game. You leveled up in a below average crafting system and do what with it? Sell it to NPC's? Equip companions with it?

     

    All those I highligten in green is exactly why I and many many many do not like sandbox games.  All that developmental time spent on things that in the grand scheme of things doesnt do anything other then to increase immersion.  Immersion is nice but sadly is overrated, I would much rather have proper systems in place that gave me direction and important decisions.  Those things listed are fluff and is not worthy of being developed in a serious game where more important systems has lasting appeal.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasinAll those I highligten in green is exactly why I and many many many do not like sandbox games.  All that developmental time spent on things that in the grand scheme of things doesnt do anything other then to increase immersion.  Immersion is nice but sadly is overrated, I would much rather have proper systems in place that gave me direction and important decisions.  Those things listed are fluff and is not worthy of being developed in a serious game where more important systems has lasting appeal.

    I agree sandbox games are niche. I just cant fathom why anyone would think TES games are sandbox games. They play more like themepark games than sandbox. Hell, the newer TES games are getting more like a fantasy version of GTA.

    image
  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by immodium

    Easy.

    A sandbox game should let me manipulate everything in the game. Lets take minecraft as an example of what a sandbox game is. Everything within that game can be used/manipulated by the player.

    Now lets look at TES (using Skyrim).

    There are trees all over the world. Can I cut any of them down? No. Well it's a sandbox is it not, why can't I?

    The landscapes are also littered with animals. Can I kill them all? No. Can I breed them? No. Again, is this game a sandbox?

    Can I manipulate waterflow to power a wheat mill and grind my own grain to make the finest bread in all of Tamriel? No. Yet there are water streams, mills and even grain within Skyrim. The NPC's can do it, why can't I?

    Can I kill ALL npc's? No.

    Can I build traps in forests to kill bandits? No.

    I've only just scrathed the surfice. There are so many tools in Skyrim that can't be used in a variety of ways. The stupidest example of this in Skyrim is when you need a torch to burn down the hives just outside Riften. You can't burn anything else down with them. It's like all other barn buildings are immune. Probably been enchanted with fire resist or something.

    It's just way to restrictive to be called a sandbox. It's just a non-linear themepark game. All the rides are there to enjoy, you can just enjoy them in any order you decide. Like a real themepark actually.

    Also, a lot of themepark MMO's have better crafting than TES. I can't believe your talking about TES crafting in regard to leveling up. It's a PvE game. You leveled up in a below average crafting system and do what with it? Sell it to NPC's? Equip companions with it?

    All those I highligten in green is exactly why I and many many many do not like sandbox games.  All that developmental time spent on things that in the grand scheme of things doesnt do anything other then to increase immersion.  Immersion is nice but sadly is overrated, I would much rather have proper systems in place that gave me direction and important decisions.  Those things listed are fluff and is not worthy of being developed in a serious game where more important systems has lasting appeal.

    Thing is.. what he's asking for is not necessarily a game, but a life simulator. There's a reason why games like minecraft have such features but in a limited scope. If you like minecraft, that's fine, it's a fun game, but there are also severe technical & design limitations you take on by setting your game up in such a way. There's also pretty huge problems you run into when such a game becomes shared by 1000s of people.

    Heck, when you look at all the commonly accepted sandboxes games ever made, minecraft is I think the only one that actually fully lives up to that idealized point of view. Terraria, Infiniminer, and dwarf fortress come close, but nearly every game has at least something you can't change as a player. All games are systems, and all systems have limitations. 

  • RoinRoin Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Squeak69

    which we already know can be made into an MMO.

    people keep saying this but i kinda want to see some source info for it, cause i dont actully agree with it.

    Oh, right...I forgot there are people that dont know about those things called sandbox games.

    People dont know that there were faction based games that didnt have magical walls closing off faction lands...and I am not going to name them all because almost every single faction game ever made did not have DaoCs level of developer hand holding.

    People dont know that there were games with factions, that allowed you to actually choose the faction AFTER creation and even allowed you to switch sides...like...SWG.

    People dont know that there were games with a massive world that wasnt split into three closed off lands...like, ooh, almost every single other game ever made.

    People dont know that an MMO can actually allow a player to train and level up any and ALL crafting...again, if you dont actually know that MMOs did this...I can see why you think the way you do...you dont know much about the genre.

    You know the one thing I havent seen...someone actually make a long detailed list of how TES is not a sandbox game and that it fits into the themepark DaoC RvR where the entire world is at war yet is compeletely safe except in the magical world of neverland behind invisible walls.

    Easy.

    A sandbox game should let me manipulate everything in the game. Lets take minecraft as an example of what a sandbox game is. Everything within that game can be used/manipulated by the player.

    Now lets look at TES (using Skyrim).

    There are trees all over the world. Can I cut any of them down? No. Well it's a sandbox is it not, why can't I?

    The landscapes are also littered with animals. Can I kill them all? No. Can I breed them? No. Again, is this game a sandbox?

    Can I manipulate waterflow to power a wheat mill and grind my own grain to make the finest bread in all of Tamriel? No. Yet there are water streams, mills and even grain within Skyrim. The NPC's can do it, why can't I?

    Can I kill ALL npc's? No.

    Can I build traps in forests to kill bandits? No.

    I've only just scrathed the surfice. There are so many tools in Skyrim that can't be used in a variety of ways. The stupidest example of this in Skyrim is when you need a torch to burn down the hives just outside Riften. You can't burn anything else down with them. It's like all other barn buildings are immune. Probably been enchanted with fire resist or something.

    It's just way to restrictive to be called a sandbox. It's just a non-linear themepark game. All the rides are there to enjoy, you can just enjoy them in any order you decide. Like a real themepark actually.

    Also, a lot of themepark MMO's have better crafting than TES. I can't believe your talking about TES crafting in regard to leveling up. It's a PvE game. You leveled up in a below average crafting system and do what with it? Sell it to NPC's? Equip companions with it?

     

    Have to agree. Like the TES series as a whole, but it's more of a game with some sandbox elements, then a sandbox game. I know the hard core TES fans hate it, but I honestly in my humble opinion. Do not believe a straight conversion of Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim take your pick.  Into a MMO environment would work well. Take Skyrim for instance. It would be pretty disappointing to roll into town to find out you aren't the only Dragonborn... just one of many thousands.

    In War - Victory.
    In Peace - Vigilance.
    In Death - Sacrifice.

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Topherpunch

    I am a fan od Elder Scroll, so much that I must protest this game.  I am just going to post all the bad things that I think are very bad ideas. This is not a troll, just a "concerned gamers bad idea, thoughts" post....

     

    Gaining skills and spells..... Not cool  -- you mean like in every other ES game?

    Targeting..... Why are they ruining the FPS style? - it is fps style

     

    What did you do to the old crafting system from Elder Scrolls? What is wrong with combining regular items to make weird combines? - crafting is supposidly just like previous ES games

     

     

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Roin
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Squeak69

    which we already know can be made into an MMO.

    people keep saying this but i kinda want to see some source info for it, cause i dont actully agree with it.

    Oh, right...I forgot there are people that dont know about those things called sandbox games.

    People dont know that there were faction based games that didnt have magical walls closing off faction lands...and I am not going to name them all because almost every single faction game ever made did not have DaoCs level of developer hand holding.

    People dont know that there were games with factions, that allowed you to actually choose the faction AFTER creation and even allowed you to switch sides...like...SWG.

    People dont know that there were games with a massive world that wasnt split into three closed off lands...like, ooh, almost every single other game ever made.

    People dont know that an MMO can actually allow a player to train and level up any and ALL crafting...again, if you dont actually know that MMOs did this...I can see why you think the way you do...you dont know much about the genre.

    You know the one thing I havent seen...someone actually make a long detailed list of how TES is not a sandbox game and that it fits into the themepark DaoC RvR where the entire world is at war yet is compeletely safe except in the magical world of neverland behind invisible walls.

    Easy.

    A sandbox game should let me manipulate everything in the game. Lets take minecraft as an example of what a sandbox game is. Everything within that game can be used/manipulated by the player.

    Now lets look at TES (using Skyrim).

    There are trees all over the world. Can I cut any of them down? No. Well it's a sandbox is it not, why can't I?

    The landscapes are also littered with animals. Can I kill them all? No. Can I breed them? No. Again, is this game a sandbox?

    Can I manipulate waterflow to power a wheat mill and grind my own grain to make the finest bread in all of Tamriel? No. Yet there are water streams, mills and even grain within Skyrim. The NPC's can do it, why can't I?

    Can I kill ALL npc's? No.

    Can I build traps in forests to kill bandits? No.

    I've only just scrathed the surfice. There are so many tools in Skyrim that can't be used in a variety of ways. The stupidest example of this in Skyrim is when you need a torch to burn down the hives just outside Riften. You can't burn anything else down with them. It's like all other barn buildings are immune. Probably been enchanted with fire resist or something.

    It's just way to restrictive to be called a sandbox. It's just a non-linear themepark game. All the rides are there to enjoy, you can just enjoy them in any order you decide. Like a real themepark actually.

    Also, a lot of themepark MMO's have better crafting than TES. I can't believe your talking about TES crafting in regard to leveling up. It's a PvE game. You leveled up in a below average crafting system and do what with it? Sell it to NPC's? Equip companions with it?

     

    Have to agree. Like the TES series as a whole, but it's more of a game with some sandbox elements, then a sandbox game. I know the hard core TES fans hate it, but I honestly in my humble opinion. Do not believe a straight conversion of Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim take your pick.  Into a MMO environment would work well. Take Skyrim for instance. It would be pretty disappointing to roll into town to find out you aren't the only Dragonborn... just one of many thousands.

    The real problem would be TES levels of freedom in regard to player actions, players being given the ability to muck up someones experience at their every whim, would not be well accepted by the mass of Casual MMo gamers ( which happens to be who they're shooting for as their core audience).  SOme "sandbox elements" could be used, as well as an open ended structure, but player theft, kill anyone and those types of things would have to be thrown out for commercial appeal.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • ThandrasThandras Huntington, WVPosts: 41Member
    Is this horse not dead enough yet? How many threads about this are there now anyway?
  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tkreep
    Originally posted by baphamet

     


    Originally posted by Topherpunch
    I am a fan od Elder Scroll, so much that I must protest this game.  I am just going to post all the bad things that I think are very bad ideas. This is not a troll, just a "concerned gamers bad idea, thoughts" post....

     

    Having one PvP area. While I know it is huge I just think putting players in a particular place to PvP is just silly.

    One mega server, this is good if you were playing a game like EvE or Darkfall where there are no instaces.

    Gaining skills and spells..... Not cool

    Targeting..... Why are they ruining the FPS style?

    Not able to join other faction area's until you reach maxed level (This could be a rumor) Why?

    What did you do to the old crafting system from Elder Scrolls? What is wrong with combining regular items to make weird combines?

    Zenimax.....

    The root of all evil.....money. Why is Bethesda giving into corporate walkways? You could have created something amazing.

    These are just some things I think they really messed up on. Personally I wish they would stop what they are doing and remake. Theme park is dead. I know some people really like themepark games, but  (this is an assumtion) I really think that is because they have not been given anything else. If Skyrim was an MMORPG with hundreds of people running around doing what they want and killing who they wanted...... There would be only one.


     

    you simply don't know what a sandbox game is if you think ES is a sandbox.

    ES is a quest driven game, a quest driven game is an exclusive themepark feature.

    just because you could explore on your own and decide not to do the quests if you didn't want to, does not make it a sandbox.

    also, if skyrim was made into a MMO and they didn't change anything, it would be a huge failure in terms of longevity.

    it would basically be SWTOR v 2.0 except with no endgame at all.

     

    He never said ES was a sandbox...

    read the thread title...

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by immodium

    Easy.

    A sandbox game should let me manipulate everything in the game. Lets take minecraft as an example of what a sandbox game is. Everything within that game can be used/manipulated by the player.

    Now lets look at TES (using Skyrim).

    There are trees all over the world. Can I cut any of them down? No. Well it's a sandbox is it not, why can't I?

    The landscapes are also littered with animals. Can I kill them all? No. Can I breed them? No. Again, is this game a sandbox?

    Can I manipulate waterflow to power a wheat mill and grind my own grain to make the finest bread in all of Tamriel? No. Yet there are water streams, mills and even grain within Skyrim. The NPC's can do it, why can't I?

    Can I kill ALL npc's? No.

    Can I build traps in forests to kill bandits? No.

    I've only just scrathed the surfice. There are so many tools in Skyrim that can't be used in a variety of ways. The stupidest example of this in Skyrim is when you need a torch to burn down the hives just outside Riften. You can't burn anything else down with them. It's like all other barn buildings are immune. Probably been enchanted with fire resist or something.

    It's just way to restrictive to be called a sandbox. It's just a non-linear themepark game. All the rides are there to enjoy, you can just enjoy them in any order you decide. Like a real themepark actually.

    Also, a lot of themepark MMO's have better crafting than TES. I can't believe your talking about TES crafting in regard to leveling up. It's a PvE game. You leveled up in a below average crafting system and do what with it? Sell it to NPC's? Equip companions with it?

    All those I highligten in green is exactly why I and many many many do not like sandbox games.  All that developmental time spent on things that in the grand scheme of things doesnt do anything other then to increase immersion.  Immersion is nice but sadly is overrated, I would much rather have proper systems in place that gave me direction and important decisions.  Those things listed are fluff and is not worthy of being developed in a serious game where more important systems has lasting appeal.

    Thing is.. what he's asking for is not necessarily a game, but a life simulator. There's a reason why games like minecraft have such features but in a limited scope. If you like minecraft, that's fine, it's a fun game, but there are also severe technical & design limitations you take on by setting your game up in such a way. There's also pretty huge problems you run into when such a game becomes shared by 1000s of people.

    Heck, when you look at all the commonly accepted sandboxes games ever made, minecraft is I think the only one that actually fully lives up to that idealized point of view. Terraria, Infiniminer, and dwarf fortress come close, but nearly every game has at least something you can't change as a player. All games are systems, and all systems have limitations. 

    Rollercoaster/Transport Tycoon games, Themepark and Hospital. Are they not sandbox games? If TES games are classed as sandbox then most MMORPG's are. The only difference really is you can level all crafting professions and mobs level as you level making the world open from the start. That can't be the only difference.

    image
  • haibanehaibane San Diego, CAPosts: 178Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Topherpunch

    Zenimax.....

    The root of all evil.....money. Why is Bethesda giving into corporate walkways? You could have created something amazing.

    FYI, the idea for the basis of this game, DaoC, was so bad that Bethesda swore it off. Zenimax Media is just clueless about the MMO genre and they are pinning their hopes that the snake oil salesmen they created Zenimax Online for knows what they are doing.

    Im sure if someone had pointed out to them the difference between sandbox and themepark, and how the DaoC ride was only ridden by 250k people and that the IP with its millions of fans would be, tossed to the side with its design, they would have done what every other major studio did...said hell no to DaoC framework.

    I think u have no clue at all on what u're talking about. DAOC has always been a great success, especially for the time !!! This was a game released way before WoW brought the world's bandwagon into the MMORPG genre. Many games tried to emulate DAOC but failed (like WAR for example, GW2's doing the same with the 3 servers wvwvw). So, no, emulating DAOC wouldn't be a bad thing actually, if it's correctly done.

    Now, i have absolutely no hope on TES online, i think it'll be another SW:TOR and i hope that Bethesda will wake up and go back to making good games asap.

    You're a Hardcore Survivor!

    You not only survived the zombie apocalypse, but did it with style! Your mastery of zombie knowledge, survival tactics, and weaponry is nearly unmatched. Congratulations, for you are hardcore!

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member
    Originally posted by Topherpunch

    I am a fan od Elder Scroll, so much that I must protest this game.  I am just going to post all the bad things that I think are very bad ideas. This is not a troll, just a "concerned gamers bad idea, thoughts" post....

    Having one PvP area. While I know it is huge I just think putting players in a particular place to PvP is just silly.

    One mega server, this is good if you were playing a game like EvE or Darkfall where there are no instaces.

    Gaining skills and spells..... Not cool

    Targeting..... Why are they ruining the FPS style?

    Not able to join other faction area's until you reach maxed level (This could be a rumor) Why?

    What did you do to the old crafting system from Elder Scrolls? What is wrong with combining regular items to make weird combines?

    Zenimax.....

    The root of all evil.....money. Why is Bethesda giving into corporate walkways? You could have created something amazing.

    These are just some things I think they really messed up on. Personally I wish they would stop what they are doing and remake. Theme park is dead. I know some people really like themepark games, but  (this is an assumtion) I really think that is because they have not been given anything else. If Skyrim was an MMORPG with hundreds of people running around doing what they want and killing who they wanted...... There would be only one.

    The root of all evil sentence says it all, thats why and they could indeed have made a amazing game but they did not.

    But now is question do you still buy it or not with this knowledge?

    I won't buy it for me its not realy a traditional ELDER SCROLL game its just another themepark as we already hundreds out there.

     

    What puzzles me is you sell 15milllion copys of Skyrim already oblivion and morrowind where so praised games why make a mediocre themepark is beyond me only reason i can think is indeed MONEY thats wrong movtive for such a good and popular IP to go downhill bah:(

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,470Member Uncommon
    TES was not a sandpark game. I am starting to think that to many people here have no clue what a sandbgame is. To be sandbox you would need to be able to build and change the world. How could you do that in TES? You dont even get to write your own story. The only thing thats even a little bit sandbox in the game is the freedom to make any class you want and ESO has that in the game. TES is 99.9999% themepark.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    you guys sound like ossis (east germans before the fall of the wall), who talkes about the great western car, and then go and bought a manta, because that is the rebel car!

     

    seriously, maybe play a sandbox game before you guys post about one next time.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

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