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Why is it bad to pre order a game but ok to pledge hundreds..maybe thousands on kickstarter?

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  • JimmyYOJimmyYO Columbus, OHPosts: 520Member

    It's not ok to fund a kickstarter program and anyone that does is an idiot. Why? Because you encourage rewarding companies before they make the product, which ironicly causes them to put less effort in the product because they already got paid. This makes even less sense in Mark Jacobs case considering his only accomplishment in 10 years is Warhammer Online....

    That said I have no right to tell you what to do with your money but I can sure make fun of you for wasting it.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,936Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Everwest
    As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk.  If the project folds, the donors get their money back.  If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.

    What lack of risk? If the project is funded, and later the project failed .. you don't get your money back. The project team can spend your money anyway they want .. and if no game is produced, there is nothign you can do.

     

    And this is the bit that supporters of KS don't seem to get. So long as the money is used up "legitimately", after a funding goal is met, in the development of a game or making a tech demo or whatever the stated goal is, and then, nothing comes of it and no game is released, the money is gone and that is the end of it. And no one can be sued for anything, and no one is owed anything.
  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Everwest
    As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk.  If the project folds, the donors get their money back.  If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.

    What lack of risk? If the project is funded, and later the project failed .. you don't get your money back. The project team can spend your money anyway they want .. and if no game is produced, there is nothign you can do.

     

    And this is the bit that supporters of KS don't seem to get. So long as the money is used up "legitimately", after a funding goal is met, in the development of a game or making a tech demo or whatever the stated goal is, and then, nothing comes of it and no game is released, the money is gone and that is the end of it. And no one can be sued for anything, and no one is owed anything.

    This. 

  • ArconaArcona VanlosePosts: 1,185Member

    If you dont preorder, the game will still release. Total Biscuit said to wait for reviews before buying. But you don't know for sure untill you try the game yourself, often a hyped game will not be to your liking. Sometimes a game with bland reviews will be right to your liking. So you have to cash out or play a demo to find out for sure.

    If a kickstarter don't get funded the game will not be made at all, or be delayed. You decide if the presentation of the game is good enough for a judgement of the final product.

    There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.

    Don't stop loving things, just because there is a risk of losing them. Then you could walk through life without loving anything.

     

  • NightgroperNightgroper Aunt Em''s, NEPosts: 76Member

    I'm too lazy to quote. Alright OP(that's overly pompous, not original poster. Bam! once more!) What you do not seem to realize that this topic you created was mostly spawned from the game Aliens Colonial Marines and the bullshit that happened with it. If you do not know what happened it was pretty much a scam on the level of Spring Time for Hitler.

    Now to refute your claim that with preodering you have much more information through vids, pics, gameplay vids, dev commentary, etc. You actually get a fair amount of that from the decent kickstarters. Go check out Obsidian's, Wasteland 2, Cryamore. 

    As for preorders I have been burned personally myself, and let's look at all the people that preordered FF14 without playing it, or did look at play vids thinking it was not the final build.

    Preorders now are not used as preorders anymore. Let's look at Aliens Colonial Marines. It sold at number 1 in the UK, and number 6 in the US. This atrocious piece of shit for a game sold at number fucking 1 and in the top god damned 10. No matter what reviews are written after, the money has been spent, and with companies like EA guess what they see that as? It needs a sequel, or more games that are similar. 

    Also this whole thing is pointless since we are arguing about people spending money on what they WANT. You can call someone an idiot for spending hundreds on a kickstarter, but you know what? I got to give it to them they are helping to fund an idea.  Remember kickstarter funds are not sales numbers.

    The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.

  • OnigodOnigod Noord-HollandPosts: 688Member
    Why do you think others think its bad? people can do whatever the .... they want.  being someone that gets upset by such things is a fool
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arcona

     

    If a kickstarter don't get funded the game will not be made at all, or be delayed. You decide if the presentation of the game is good enough for a judgement of the final product.

    There is no lack of fun games to play. Bioshock Infinte just came out. I still have no finished Borderland 2. There is no need to buy hope.

    There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.

    Small? How do you know it is small? Most small business fails. Do you know that? Yes, it is your money. I am more than happy if you want to risk it so i may have a game to buy later. But don't expect me to chip in.

    Don't stop loving things, just because there is a risk of losing them. Then you could walk through life without loving anything.

    I only love the things that at least exists. There are no lack of them. I don't love wishful thinking. However, you, of course, can love whatever you want to.

     

     

  • ArconaArcona VanlosePosts: 1,185Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arcona

    There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.

    Small? How do you know it is small? Most small business fails. Do you know that? Yes, it is your money. I am more than happy if you want to risk it so i may have a game to buy later. But don't expect me to chip in.

    Mark Jacobs is putting in 2 million on top of what the kickstarter collects. This project is 99% certain of happening.

    Heck, if they run into problems they could release a unfinished game, and finish it after release. Mmorpgs are like that, especially DAOC back at the beginning :p

  • Flex1Flex1 Cabo RojoPosts: 407Member

    Why is it bad to pre order a game but ok to pledge hundreds..maybe thousands on kickstarter?

    Because its our damn money. We earned it, stole it, and borrowed it so if I pre order a game or pledge in kickstarter then its my business.

     

    If fools keep buying into monthly fees or buying the same game over and over (CoD style) then let me pre order and pledge all I want.


    image

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    One is based on passion, the other is just business maggots.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arcona
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arcona

    There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.

    Small? How do you know it is small? Most small business fails. Do you know that? Yes, it is your money. I am more than happy if you want to risk it so i may have a game to buy later. But don't expect me to chip in.

    Mark Jacobs is putting in 2 million on top of what the kickstarter collects. This project is 99% certain of happening.

    Heck, if they run into problems they could release a unfinished game, and finish it after release. Mmorpgs are like that, especially DAOC back at the beginning :p

    So? Lots of small business fail even if the owner put in their own money.

    http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/smallbusiness/a/whybusfail.htm

    "According to the SBA, over 50% of small businesses fail in the first five years"

  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arcona
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arcona

    There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.

    Small? How do you know it is small? Most small business fails. Do you know that? Yes, it is your money. I am more than happy if you want to risk it so i may have a game to buy later. But don't expect me to chip in.

    Mark Jacobs is putting in 2 million on top of what the kickstarter collects. This project is 99% certain of happening.

    Heck, if they run into problems they could release a unfinished game, and finish it after release. Mmorpgs are like that, especially DAOC back at the beginning :p

    So if he gets that 2 million from KS and he puts in another 2 million is that enough to actually make this? I'm not trying to be a dick I really just have no idea how much it costs to make a quality MMORPG these days.

  • ArconaArcona VanlosePosts: 1,185Member
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by Arcona
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arcona

    There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.

    Small? How do you know it is small? Most small business fails. Do you know that? Yes, it is your money. I am more than happy if you want to risk it so i may have a game to buy later. But don't expect me to chip in.

    Mark Jacobs is putting in 2 million on top of what the kickstarter collects. This project is 99% certain of happening.

    Heck, if they run into problems they could release a unfinished game, and finish it after release. Mmorpgs are like that, especially DAOC back at the beginning :p

    So if he gets that 2 million from KS and he puts in another 2 million is that enough to actually make this? I'm not trying to be a dick I really just have no idea how much it costs to make a quality MMORPG these days.

    They are saving millions by cutting the distibutor, and no quests with expensive voice over, and most if not all of the PvE. I guess some PvE is added with a stretch goal though.

    Voice acting is unbelieveable expensive, it cost War for the overworld 70,000 euros for one voice acter.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    It is real simple & extremely easy why ertain people cannot grasp or understand kickstarter.

    It is not about the money... it is about the project. Does even matter if it fails, it is bout supporting enthusiasts, not some pre-fab businessmen. Who cares about their game, if they are making it for them... to get rich.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,421Member Uncommon

    Neither is a good idea,i do not condone one over the other.

    IMO it is NOT using common sense,you could put that money to MUCH better use.

    Right off the hop a Kickstarter program takes around 20% total off the amount.

    No matter the math,what has happened is now even the GIANTS have seen how easily people will throw money away,so now they have joined in on the free handouts.

    If you want to see what kind of NONSENSE this has started read this...

    Kickstarter

     

     


    Samoan Diamond

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by botrytis

    As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).

    There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.

    and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?

    In theory, investing in a startup offests the risks of putting in that money against the potential rewards of even more money coming back if the startup is successful.  Kickstarter doesn't (usually) buy you an actual share in the project's success.

    That difference isn't enough to deter me from putting some money into kickstart projects that interest me, but I can understand why others might feel differently.

    Well of course that's true. And  the the amounts that people put into kickstarter are pretty paltry when compared to the larger sums of investing in a starting business.

    I just don't see the big deal in the differences between one's payoff.

    Neither do I, exactly.  But I can understand that others do.  And so long as we're not questioning each other's intelligence over our differing perspectives, I'm cool with that.

  • SorninSornin Richmond, BCPosts: 1,133Member
    I do not think it is bad to pre-order a game, nor is it bad to pledge to a Kickstarter campaign for a game. Both are choices one makes based on their own judgement and with their own money. Anyone who tells you one is bad, the other is good, or some permutation of that is full of crap. If you believe in something and want to support it, whether with a pre-order or pledge, do it. If not, do not. It is simple.

    image

  • david06david06 Chantilly, VAPosts: 183Member


    Originally posted by Arglebargle
    Originally posted by Normandy7 No publisher to get in the way of development. That is why Kickstarter is better.
    This.

     

    Popular wisdom among publishers was 'No one is interested in space games'.   Boom, Kickstarter funds two games  to multiple millions.

     

    Popular publisher wisdom said noone was interested in old school RPGs.  Guys with serious old school RPG experiance raise millions on Kickstarter.

     

    Kickstarter projects absolutely show levels of support for games and genres.   Now, if you aren't very choosey about where you send your dollars, you might end up patronizing dubious projects (be they inept or crooked).   But Kickstarter is a method of mass patronage, and it cuts out the publisher gatekeepers who could otherwise decide what gets published, or make serious (and terrible) decisions about the development of a game.   


    Yeah, I really don't understand the people who complain about kickstarter. I funded Star Citizen, Wasteland 2, and about ten other projects. I didn't pledge to Doublefine Adventures and countless other games because I didn't like what I saw or the entity running the campaign seemed a bit sketchy. It's not too much of my concern if someone gets fooled and wastes their money.


    A person can't complain about how EA/Activision are ruining franchises and then belittle crowdfunding in the next breath.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    Look, this discussion is getting a bit ridiculous, the difference is quite simple.

    Pre-Ordering:

    You are basically paying for perks. Whether it's access to the game before others, a shiny mount, or some other incentive, you're basically paying for content that's already been made. Your money isn't going towards making the product better, it's going towards securing an investment already made by other people.

    From the gamer's perspective, you could either view it as buying incentives, or gambling that a product will hold your interest enough to justify the extra costs. Either way, you aren't supporting a product's developement, you are padding the investment of a product that's already coming out.

    Kickstarter:

    Kickstarter is literally an investment.

    By funding a kickstarter you are literally using your money to try and support a product you want. While there may be perks attached to a kickstarter, the vast majority of products on kickstarter are there because they wouldn't exist without outside funding, and either don't want to, or can't get such funding from a publisher or major investor.

    Both are a risk, but one is a legitimate way to get new / more innovative products made. The other (preordering), is a method commonly used by companies to push people into buying a product before knowing how good it is, especially when the company themselves are unsure about the quality of their own product. It's for this last reason that many people say preordering is generally a bad idea.

    If you still preorder, then that's fine. It's your own money. If you think kickstarter is stupid, that's also fine; but then you shouldn't complain about not having any innovative games. That's exactly what services like kickstarter are designed to promote.

  • GoldenArrowGoldenArrow TurkuPosts: 1,187Member

    Kickstarting makes games.

    Pre-ordering doesn't.

    Kickstarting a game that has reached it's goal is pretty much pre-ordering.

    Unless there are strecth goals to go for.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus

    Kickstarter is literally an investment.

    Still false, no matter how many times people want to repeat that. It is a donation system. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,936Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by aesperus

    Kickstarter is literally an investment.

    Still false, no matter how many times people want to repeat that. It is a donation system. 

     

    And, the KS people take a cut off the top.
  • EverwestEverwest Como, MOPosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Everwest
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Everwest

    Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation. 

    An individual's misconception of the transaction does not change the type of transaction. That said, the misconception that one is doing anything more than simply donating is probably what gets a lot of Kickstarters funded.

    Maybe from a strictly legal/financial sense (and even from that perspective your assertion is questionable), but not in any meaningful sense

    Legal obligation and whether or not it is subject to taxation (on both sides) is irrelevant? Srsly?

     

    Irrelevant?  Meh, maybe.  I said it wasn't meaningful to the consumer, and it generally isn't. 

    Normally you will be getting a product.  It might be great, it might be a piece of crap--just like many other products on the market.  Pretty much any kind of entertainment service available that you pay money for, there's a chance you'll be disappointed. 

    If you're talking about consumers, you have to look at it from the consumer's perspective, which you're not when you bring in things like how the business will or will not be taxed.  I have never in any circumstance predicated my purchase of an entertainment product or service based on anything in the tax code, and neither do 99.99% of consumers.  So yeah, it's pretty meaningless.

  • EverwestEverwest Como, MOPosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by Psychow
    Originally posted by Everwest
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    Originally posted by Everwest

    As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk.  If the project folds, the donors get their money back.  If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.

    It's not a GOOD thing when investors put money into a project that turns into a flop.  It discourages investment in general.  Kickstarter helps prevent that. 

    When Kickstarter is treated as a pay up-front model, it's a win-win.  Unless of course you throw your money into something you don't believe in, but then you really have no one to blame but yourself.

    That is part of it, but once the project begins and then folds, you get nothing back. That there is your risk.

    Sometimes that's true--sometimes you will get something back.  However, consider the alternative--one person/company funds the project in its entirety.  For them, the loss is substantial, possibly devastating.  For a player, it's generally just an inconvenience--they have money for one less video game (assuming they didn't donate big dollars).  When you compare the risk, it's insignificant, especially considering that you more often than not you will get what you paid for.

     

    Wow...lol

     

    Hey man...want to help buy a bridge? I was going to do it myself, but maybe if I can get a bunch of other people to chip in, I won't risk MY money...help meh!!!

     

     

    If that bridge will make it convenient for me to get around, then yeah, I'd chip in.  Why would you put up 100% of the money for a bridge that other people are going to use?  Sounds to me like YOU would be the sucker in that transaction.  Meanwhile, I'd be willing to risk a small amount of money to see a useful public service done (that's pretty much what taxes are for).

  • EverwestEverwest Como, MOPosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Everwest

    As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk.  If the project folds, the donors get their money back.  If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.

    What lack of risk? If the project is funded, and later the project failed .. you don't get your money back. The project team can spend your money anyway they want .. and if no game is produced, there is nothign you can do.

    It's a lack of significant risk.  If you pay $50 for a game and you don't like it, that's a risk, too. 

    When investors don't want to risk money, it's because they're risking the kind of money that buys HOUSES, not cheeseburgers.

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