There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.
Small? How do you know it is small? Most small business fails. Do you know that? Yes, it is your money. I am more than happy if you want to risk it so i may have a game to buy later. But don't expect me to chip in.
Mark Jacobs is putting in 2 million on top of what the kickstarter collects. This project is 99% certain of happening.
Heck, if they run into problems they could release a unfinished game, and finish it after release. Mmorpgs are like that, especially DAOC back at the beginning
So? Lots of small business fail even if the owner put in their own money.
There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.
Small? How do you know it is small? Most small business fails. Do you know that? Yes, it is your money. I am more than happy if you want to risk it so i may have a game to buy later. But don't expect me to chip in.
Mark Jacobs is putting in 2 million on top of what the kickstarter collects. This project is 99% certain of happening.
Heck, if they run into problems they could release a unfinished game, and finish it after release. Mmorpgs are like that, especially DAOC back at the beginning
So if he gets that 2 million from KS and he puts in another 2 million is that enough to actually make this? I'm not trying to be a dick I really just have no idea how much it costs to make a quality MMORPG these days.
There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.
Small? How do you know it is small? Most small business fails. Do you know that? Yes, it is your money. I am more than happy if you want to risk it so i may have a game to buy later. But don't expect me to chip in.
Mark Jacobs is putting in 2 million on top of what the kickstarter collects. This project is 99% certain of happening.
Heck, if they run into problems they could release a unfinished game, and finish it after release. Mmorpgs are like that, especially DAOC back at the beginning
So if he gets that 2 million from KS and he puts in another 2 million is that enough to actually make this? I'm not trying to be a dick I really just have no idea how much it costs to make a quality MMORPG these days.
They are saving millions by cutting the distibutor, and no quests with expensive voice over, and most if not all of the PvE. I guess some PvE is added with a stretch goal though.
Voice acting is unbelieveable expensive, it cost War for the overworld 70,000 euros for one voice acter.
It is real simple & extremely easy why ertain people cannot grasp or understand kickstarter.
It is not about the money... it is about the project. Does even matter if it fails, it is bout supporting enthusiasts, not some pre-fab businessmen. Who cares about their game, if they are making it for them... to get rich.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Neither is a good idea,i do not condone one over the other.
IMO it is NOT using common sense,you could put that money to MUCH better use.
Right off the hop a Kickstarter program takes around 20% total off the amount.
No matter the math,what has happened is now even the GIANTS have seen how easily people will throw money away,so now they have joined in on the free handouts.
If you want to see what kind of NONSENSE this has started read this...
As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).
There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.
and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?
In theory, investing in a startup offests the risks of putting in that money against the potential rewards of even more money coming back if the startup is successful. Kickstarter doesn't (usually) buy you an actual share in the project's success.
That difference isn't enough to deter me from putting some money into kickstart projects that interest me, but I can understand why others might feel differently.
Well of course that's true. And the the amounts that people put into kickstarter are pretty paltry when compared to the larger sums of investing in a starting business.
I just don't see the big deal in the differences between one's payoff.
Neither do I, exactly. But I can understand that others do. And so long as we're not questioning each other's intelligence over our differing perspectives, I'm cool with that.
I do not think it is bad to pre-order a game, nor is it bad to pledge to a Kickstarter campaign for a game. Both are choices one makes based on their own judgement and with their own money. Anyone who tells you one is bad, the other is good, or some permutation of that is full of crap. If you believe in something and want to support it, whether with a pre-order or pledge, do it. If not, do not. It is simple.
Originally posted by Arglebargle Originally posted by Normandy7No publisher to get in the way of development. That is why Kickstarter is better.
This.
Popular wisdom among publishers was 'No one is interested in space games'. Boom, Kickstarter funds two games to multiple millions.
Popular publisher wisdom said noone was interested in old school RPGs. Guys with serious old school RPG experiance raise millions on Kickstarter.
Kickstarter projects absolutely show levels of support for games and genres. Now, if you aren't very choosey about where you send your dollars, you might end up patronizing dubious projects (be they inept or crooked). But Kickstarter is a method of mass patronage, and it cuts out the publisher gatekeepers who could otherwise decide what gets published, or make serious (and terrible) decisions about the development of a game.
Yeah, I really don't understand the people who complain about kickstarter. I funded Star Citizen, Wasteland 2, and about ten other projects. I didn't pledge to Doublefine Adventures and countless other games because I didn't like what I saw or the entity running the campaign seemed a bit sketchy. It's not too much of my concern if someone gets fooled and wastes their money.
A person can't complain about how EA/Activision are ruining franchises and then belittle crowdfunding in the next breath.
Look, this discussion is getting a bit ridiculous, the difference is quite simple.
Pre-Ordering:
You are basically paying for perks. Whether it's access to the game before others, a shiny mount, or some other incentive, you're basically paying for content that's already been made. Your money isn't going towards making the product better, it's going towards securing an investment already made by other people.
From the gamer's perspective, you could either view it as buying incentives, or gambling that a product will hold your interest enough to justify the extra costs. Either way, you aren't supporting a product's developement, you are padding the investment of a product that's already coming out.
Kickstarter:
Kickstarter is literally an investment.
By funding a kickstarter you are literally using your money to try and support a product you want. While there may be perks attached to a kickstarter, the vast majority of products on kickstarter are there because they wouldn't exist without outside funding, and either don't want to, or can't get such funding from a publisher or major investor.
Both are a risk, but one is a legitimate way to get new / more innovative products made. The other (preordering), is a method commonly used by companies to push people into buying a product before knowing how good it is, especially when the company themselves are unsure about the quality of their own product. It's for this last reason that many people say preordering is generally a bad idea.
If you still preorder, then that's fine. It's your own money. If you think kickstarter is stupid, that's also fine; but then you shouldn't complain about not having any innovative games. That's exactly what services like kickstarter are designed to promote.
Still false, no matter how many times people want to repeat that. It is a donation system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation.
An individual's misconception of the transaction does not change the type of transaction. That said, the misconception that one is doing anything more than simply donating is probably what gets a lot of Kickstarters funded.
Maybe from a strictly legal/financial sense (and even from that perspective your assertion is questionable), but not in any meaningful sense.
Legal obligation and whether or not it is subject to taxation (on both sides) is irrelevant? Srsly?
Irrelevant? Meh, maybe. I said it wasn't meaningful to the consumer, and it generally isn't.
Normally you will be getting a product. It might be great, it might be a piece of crap--just like many other products on the market. Pretty much any kind of entertainment service available that you pay money for, there's a chance you'll be disappointed.
If you're talking about consumers, you have to look at it from the consumer's perspective, which you're not when you bring in things like how the business will or will not be taxed. I have never in any circumstance predicated my purchase of an entertainment product or service based on anything in the tax code, and neither do 99.99% of consumers. So yeah, it's pretty meaningless.
As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk. If the project folds, the donors get their money back. If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.
It's not a GOOD thing when investors put money into a project that turns into a flop. It discourages investment in general. Kickstarter helps prevent that.
When Kickstarter is treated as a pay up-front model, it's a win-win. Unless of course you throw your money into something you don't believe in, but then you really have no one to blame but yourself.
That is part of it, but once the project begins and then folds, you get nothing back. That there is your risk.
Sometimes that's true--sometimes you will get something back. However, consider the alternative--one person/company funds the project in its entirety. For them, the loss is substantial, possibly devastating. For a player, it's generally just an inconvenience--they have money for one less video game (assuming they didn't donate big dollars). When you compare the risk, it's insignificant, especially considering that you more often than not you will get what you paid for.
Wow...lol
Hey man...want to help buy a bridge? I was going to do it myself, but maybe if I can get a bunch of other people to chip in, I won't risk MY money...help meh!!!
If that bridge will make it convenient for me to get around, then yeah, I'd chip in. Why would you put up 100% of the money for a bridge that other people are going to use? Sounds to me like YOU would be the sucker in that transaction. Meanwhile, I'd be willing to risk a small amount of money to see a useful public service done (that's pretty much what taxes are for).
As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk. If the project folds, the donors get their money back. If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.
What lack of risk? If the project is funded, and later the project failed .. you don't get your money back. The project team can spend your money anyway they want .. and if no game is produced, there is nothign you can do.
It's a lack of significant risk. If you pay $50 for a game and you don't like it, that's a risk, too.
When investors don't want to risk money, it's because they're risking the kind of money that buys HOUSES, not cheeseburgers.
I think paying for preorders is not the best thing atm. It doesn't guarantee quality or a good release at all. Also, I'm not sure if it is a good thing for a company being able to call a game financially a success already before launch. I mean, what will their incentive be to try to make it the best game ever after that? Why would they even care from a business point of view?
Apart from that some of the perks you get are downright silly. 'Guaranteed Beta Access' for example is just markering drivel and has nothing to do with beta and has all to do with making up a useless perk to sell more preorder copies. Also, a preorder doesn't change anything about the game. It is just the current popular cashcow.
I am on the fence with kickstarter projects. I understand when someone wants to donate to a gamedev project because he/she always wanted that kind of game and there is no alternative on the market atm. And the donation helps getting the game developed (unlike preorders) And a nice touch then is for gamedevs to give players that donate a founder title or something. But when those kickstarter projects start throwing around the same kind of silly pre order marketing crap, I get guarded about this.
It is the sales and communication with the players after release that determine the future of the game a lot more.
I am afraid now for the combinations of kickstarter and preorder. Also for game development companies that could do without kickstarter , but try to raise money this way anyway. Taking away momentum from the real Indie game companies. I mean, why the hell is Lord British using this way of funding?
If we don't pledge the game will be delayed a lot, or not made at all. I think MJ stated not made at all.
We have waited a decade for a good succesor to DAOC. The RvR in DAOC is unmatched.
You can pledge $25 and get full digital version of the game.
You follow the development closely and can talk directly to the devs, and give them input and ideas etc
Highly enthusiast DAOC players who knows what made DAOC great will give input very early in the development.
There is no publisher, only developer and gamers.
If you still don't understand why kickstarter is good, I can't help you. Jesus help you.
You have no control over how that game is going to shape up and can only hope that it will be acceptible. The devs have the last word in this because you are not an investor, just a donator. And the different donators will want different things, so it is inevitable that a lot will be disappointed.
I think kickstarter funding can be cool for players with small independant games based on original ideas. Not for another mainstram MMO. Yes, a new DAOC is just another mainstream attempt at successful RvR. Just with cheaper funding.
It is the sales and communication with the players after release that determine the future of the game a lot more.
If the communication start before release, the mistakes can be dicovered sooner, and rectified.
The devs share much more information before release, and they will ask the community about decisions.
It is worth to pay in advance for this alone.
I agree with the communication with players before release. But to pay for this reason in advance is silly. Why would you have to pay them to communicate with you? They either are interested in your opinion as player, or they are not. Money has no place in this lol.
You could also try stop whining and buy games after they release, and after you read 100 reviews, and after you play it at a friend...
A different opinion immediately defaults to whining to you?
If other people choose to support the developers, you are not forced to do the same.
Why do you even mention this? I never said that I felt forced to support them financially or that others are not allowed to support them. I just gave my opinion about preorders and kickstarter programs.
You have no control over how that game is going to shape up
lol, so they will not listen to the community who pledged more than 2 million, and they will stop giving updates, and will not let the community bring any input or bug reports or ideas etc
You have no control over how that game is going to shape up
lol, so they will not listen to the community who pledged more than 2 million, and they will stop giving updates, and will not let the community bring any input or bug reports or ideas etc
What are you smoking?
You might want to learn the difference between investor and donator.
So they read your posts and listen to your suggestions. Where in this is the guarantee that they actually do something with it?
But nvm, you are right. All those players want the same thing and the developers will give it to you. That is how it works in your world. And you ask what I am smoking.
Still, it can all turn out to become the game you always wanted. But then it just happened because the gamedevelopers wanted the exact same thing. It is not because they changed everything because you asked them to.
Maybe you misunderstand me. I am not against kickstarter programs. I just realise that the level of influence on the development as player is just as low as with normal funding. Also with this kind of program you are not entitled to anything (except for whatever silly perk they listed).
Comments
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
So? Lots of small business fail even if the owner put in their own money.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/smallbusiness/a/whybusfail.htm
"According to the SBA, over 50% of small businesses fail in the first five years"
So if he gets that 2 million from KS and he puts in another 2 million is that enough to actually make this? I'm not trying to be a dick I really just have no idea how much it costs to make a quality MMORPG these days.
They are saving millions by cutting the distibutor, and no quests with expensive voice over, and most if not all of the PvE. I guess some PvE is added with a stretch goal though.
Voice acting is unbelieveable expensive, it cost War for the overworld 70,000 euros for one voice acter.
It is not about the money... it is about the project. Does even matter if it fails, it is bout supporting enthusiasts, not some pre-fab businessmen. Who cares about their game, if they are making it for them... to get rich.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Neither is a good idea,i do not condone one over the other.
IMO it is NOT using common sense,you could put that money to MUCH better use.
Right off the hop a Kickstarter program takes around 20% total off the amount.
No matter the math,what has happened is now even the GIANTS have seen how easily people will throw money away,so now they have joined in on the free handouts.
If you want to see what kind of NONSENSE this has started read this...
Kickstarter
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Neither do I, exactly. But I can understand that others do. And so long as we're not questioning each other's intelligence over our differing perspectives, I'm cool with that.
Popular wisdom among publishers was 'No one is interested in space games'. Boom, Kickstarter funds two games to multiple millions.
Popular publisher wisdom said noone was interested in old school RPGs. Guys with serious old school RPG experiance raise millions on Kickstarter.
Kickstarter projects absolutely show levels of support for games and genres. Now, if you aren't very choosey about where you send your dollars, you might end up patronizing dubious projects (be they inept or crooked). But Kickstarter is a method of mass patronage, and it cuts out the publisher gatekeepers who could otherwise decide what gets published, or make serious (and terrible) decisions about the development of a game.
Yeah, I really don't understand the people who complain about kickstarter. I funded Star Citizen, Wasteland 2, and about ten other projects. I didn't pledge to Doublefine Adventures and countless other games because I didn't like what I saw or the entity running the campaign seemed a bit sketchy. It's not too much of my concern if someone gets fooled and wastes their money.
A person can't complain about how EA/Activision are ruining franchises and then belittle crowdfunding in the next breath.
Look, this discussion is getting a bit ridiculous, the difference is quite simple.
Pre-Ordering:
You are basically paying for perks. Whether it's access to the game before others, a shiny mount, or some other incentive, you're basically paying for content that's already been made. Your money isn't going towards making the product better, it's going towards securing an investment already made by other people.
From the gamer's perspective, you could either view it as buying incentives, or gambling that a product will hold your interest enough to justify the extra costs. Either way, you aren't supporting a product's developement, you are padding the investment of a product that's already coming out.
Kickstarter:
Kickstarter is literally an investment.
By funding a kickstarter you are literally using your money to try and support a product you want. While there may be perks attached to a kickstarter, the vast majority of products on kickstarter are there because they wouldn't exist without outside funding, and either don't want to, or can't get such funding from a publisher or major investor.
Both are a risk, but one is a legitimate way to get new / more innovative products made. The other (preordering), is a method commonly used by companies to push people into buying a product before knowing how good it is, especially when the company themselves are unsure about the quality of their own product. It's for this last reason that many people say preordering is generally a bad idea.
If you still preorder, then that's fine. It's your own money. If you think kickstarter is stupid, that's also fine; but then you shouldn't complain about not having any innovative games. That's exactly what services like kickstarter are designed to promote.
Kickstarting makes games.
Pre-ordering doesn't.
Kickstarting a game that has reached it's goal is pretty much pre-ordering.
Unless there are strecth goals to go for.
Still false, no matter how many times people want to repeat that. It is a donation system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Still false, no matter how many times people want to repeat that. It is a donation system.
And, the KS people take a cut off the top.Irrelevant? Meh, maybe. I said it wasn't meaningful to the consumer, and it generally isn't.
Normally you will be getting a product. It might be great, it might be a piece of crap--just like many other products on the market. Pretty much any kind of entertainment service available that you pay money for, there's a chance you'll be disappointed.
If you're talking about consumers, you have to look at it from the consumer's perspective, which you're not when you bring in things like how the business will or will not be taxed. I have never in any circumstance predicated my purchase of an entertainment product or service based on anything in the tax code, and neither do 99.99% of consumers. So yeah, it's pretty meaningless.
If that bridge will make it convenient for me to get around, then yeah, I'd chip in. Why would you put up 100% of the money for a bridge that other people are going to use? Sounds to me like YOU would be the sucker in that transaction. Meanwhile, I'd be willing to risk a small amount of money to see a useful public service done (that's pretty much what taxes are for).
It's a lack of significant risk. If you pay $50 for a game and you don't like it, that's a risk, too.
When investors don't want to risk money, it's because they're risking the kind of money that buys HOUSES, not cheeseburgers.
If we don't pledge the game will be delayed a lot, or not made at all. I think MJ stated not made at all.
We have waited a decade for a good succesor to DAOC. The RvR in DAOC is unmatched.
You can pledge $25 and get full digital version of the game.
You follow the development closely and can talk directly to the devs, and give them input and ideas etc
Highly enthusiast DAOC players who knows what made DAOC great will give input very early in the development.
There is no publisher, only developer and gamers.
If you still don't understand why kickstarter is good, I can't help you. Jesus help you.
I think paying for preorders is not the best thing atm. It doesn't guarantee quality or a good release at all. Also, I'm not sure if it is a good thing for a company being able to call a game financially a success already before launch. I mean, what will their incentive be to try to make it the best game ever after that? Why would they even care from a business point of view?
Apart from that some of the perks you get are downright silly. 'Guaranteed Beta Access' for example is just markering drivel and has nothing to do with beta and has all to do with making up a useless perk to sell more preorder copies. Also, a preorder doesn't change anything about the game. It is just the current popular cashcow.
I am on the fence with kickstarter projects. I understand when someone wants to donate to a gamedev project because he/she always wanted that kind of game and there is no alternative on the market atm. And the donation helps getting the game developed (unlike preorders) And a nice touch then is for gamedevs to give players that donate a founder title or something. But when those kickstarter projects start throwing around the same kind of silly pre order marketing crap, I get guarded about this.
It is the sales and communication with the players after release that determine the future of the game a lot more.
I am afraid now for the combinations of kickstarter and preorder. Also for game development companies that could do without kickstarter , but try to raise money this way anyway. Taking away momentum from the real Indie game companies. I mean, why the hell is Lord British using this way of funding?
The difference...
Preorder: Bottled snake-oil
Kickstarter: Snake-oil still in the snake
If the communication start before release, the mistakes can be dicovered sooner, and rectified.
The devs share much more information before release, and they will ask the community about decisions.
It is worth to pay in advance for this alone.
You could also try stop whining and buy games after they release, and after you read 100 reviews, and after you play it at a friend...
If other people choose to support the developers, you are not forced to do the same.
You have no control over how that game is going to shape up and can only hope that it will be acceptible. The devs have the last word in this because you are not an investor, just a donator. And the different donators will want different things, so it is inevitable that a lot will be disappointed.
I think kickstarter funding can be cool for players with small independant games based on original ideas. Not for another mainstram MMO. Yes, a new DAOC is just another mainstream attempt at successful RvR. Just with cheaper funding.
lol, so they will not listen to the community who pledged more than 2 million, and they will stop giving updates, and will not let the community bring any input or bug reports or ideas etc
What are you smoking?
I have pre ordered plenty of games, I see nothing wrong with it.
You might want to learn the difference between investor and donator.
So they read your posts and listen to your suggestions. Where in this is the guarantee that they actually do something with it?
But nvm, you are right. All those players want the same thing and the developers will give it to you. That is how it works in your world. And you ask what I am smoking.
Still, it can all turn out to become the game you always wanted. But then it just happened because the gamedevelopers wanted the exact same thing. It is not because they changed everything because you asked them to.
Maybe you misunderstand me. I am not against kickstarter programs. I just realise that the level of influence on the development as player is just as low as with normal funding. Also with this kind of program you are not entitled to anything (except for whatever silly perk they listed).