Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

The 'Group Play vs Solo Play in an MMO' Thread

1686971737486

Comments

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    Originally posted by Ortwig

    So grouping is an option.  So is doing stuff solo.  Why do you have a problem with that?  And why would you have a problem with making both of those choices interesting?

    It's pointless trying to discuss grouping with Cephus, he has this strange idea that people will naturally group for the fun of grouping.

    Yeah, what a stupid idea, right?  People who find the idea of grouping fun will go out and do it, just because it's fun!  How asinine!  Because, you know, people who find playing baseball fun tend to go play baseball, people who like playing poker will get together and play poker, etc.  The idea is utterly without merit.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • SwampRobSwampRob Halifax, NSPosts: 1,008Member
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    If a player can only get so far through solo play, and then is required to group up to continue character progression, then that's design fail to me.

    What I don't understand is why people expect to be able to solo their way through the entirety of a multiplayer game. Really, it just blows my mind to think that people are playing multiplayer games as single player games and then whining when people playing the multiplayer game with multiple players are getting more content. It's like.. Wow. Just how dumb are you? Didn't you read the label?

    You don't buy Skyrim expecting to battle alongside other players, why are you buying an MMO and expecting to be able to single player your way through the entire game? Is it just me who finds that ridiculous?

    I don't feel that MMO is the same as Must Group Up For Combat To Progress.   Nor should it be, IMO.

    I don't mind that some content is group only.   I do very much mind when the best items, ie maximum character progression, is locked behind group-only content.

    That said, there's nothing wrong with having SOME games like that.   I just also wish that there were many MMOs where maximum progression could be obtained through solo play as well.   As I said, I don't dislike grouping, but I hate it being mandatory.

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    That said, there's nothing wrong with having SOME games like that.   I just also wish that there were many MMOs where maximum progression could be obtained through solo play as well.   As I said, I don't dislike grouping, but I hate it being mandatory.

    That's what your Skyrims are for, there are a million and one single player games out there that let you do exactly what you're asking for, a multiplayer game is supposed to have multiplayer content, it's supposed to offer more than a single player game can offer. Why would any developer waste their money creating servers, multiplayer code, class balancing, engine optimizations, and a host of other things, when what you're asking for can be done as a single player game?

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

    It's pointless trying to discuss grouping with Cephus, he has this strange idea that people will naturally group for the fun of grouping.

    Yeah, what a stupid idea, right?  People who find the idea of grouping fun will go out and do it, just because it's fun!  How asinine!  Because, you know, people who find playing baseball fun tend to go play baseball, people who like playing poker will get together and play poker, etc.  The idea is utterly without merit.

    Yep, see, he still doesn't get it. What you're talking about are games that involve multiple players, baseball, poker, whatever it might be. We're talking about grouping in a game that is largely based on being able to do everything alone. If an MMO was designed where a team was required, just like baseball, then that to you would be 'forced grouping'.

    So while you say people who like the idea of grouping will go and do it because it's fun, then sure, they really will, but only if the game supports it, just like baseball. People who want to group can't do that when the game is Solitaire and nobody wants to play Poker.

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Well I guess it's a good thing for you that no MMO exists like that today.  Every single one of them has group content that people like to and do group up for regularly.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member

    It is very frustrating to have content in the game gated by phasing/quest lines that require I am at the exact smae spot in the game to help someone on.

     

    I am also additionally annoyed by level restrictions. Some of my favorite grouping systems have included city of heroes with its sidekicking features and Final Fantasy 11 skill chains.

     

    The average game nowdays is easier and more rewarding for the solo player then the group player.  And yet so many in this thread want even more.

     

    I already feel incredibly punished for wanting to group so much so that even friends that would love to group would rather split up and do content solo for the speed, efficiency and the convenience of it.

     

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by zekeofev

    It is very frustrating to have content in the game gated by phasing/quest lines that require I am at the exact smae spot in the game to help someone on.

     

    I am also additionally annoyed by level restrictions. Some of my favorite grouping systems have included city of heroes with its sidekicking features and Final Fantasy 11 skill chains.

     

    The average game nowdays is easier and more rewarding for the solo player then the group player.  And yet so many in this thread want even more.

     

    I already feel incredibly punished for wanting to group so much so that even friends that would love to group would rather split up and do content solo for the speed, efficiency and the convenience of it.

     

     

    The average game these days have made it possible for you to get a group in minutes and you get far more loot, far better xp and far ore coin for being in a group.

    Grouping has substantial benefits over soloing in every game on the market. 

    Getting a group is easier and more rewarding than ever before.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    The average game these days have made it possible for you to get a group in minutes and you get far more loot, far better xp and far ore coin for being in a group.

    Grouping has substantial benefits over soloing in every game on the market. 

    Getting a group is easier and more rewarding than ever before.

    Falsehood Detected!

  • SwampRobSwampRob Halifax, NSPosts: 1,008Member
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    That said, there's nothing wrong with having SOME games like that.   I just also wish that there were many MMOs where maximum progression could be obtained through solo play as well.   As I said, I don't dislike grouping, but I hate it being mandatory.

    That's what your Skyrims are for, there are a million and one single player games out there that let you do exactly what you're asking for, a multiplayer game is supposed to have multiplayer content, it's supposed to offer more than a single player game can offer. Why would any developer waste their money creating servers, multiplayer code, class balancing, engine optimizations, and a host of other things, when what you're asking for can be done as a single player game?

    So you feel that EVERY MMO that's ever created or ever will be created MUST have grouping as the ONLY method of endgame progression?   You feel that this is a law cast in stone by the game gods and can never be any other way for all time?

    Even to a soloer, MMOs offer lots of things that single player games never will.    There is a big difference between soloing in Skyrim vs soloing in Wow that has nothing to do with gameplay.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    The average game these days have made it possible for you to get a group in minutes and you get far more loot, far better xp and far ore coin for being in a group.

    Grouping has substantial benefits over soloing in every game on the market. 

    Getting a group is easier and more rewarding than ever before.

    Falsehood Detected!

    Not at all, everything I stated is completely true.

    Virtually every modern MMO today makes it very easy to get into groups.  Grouping does give faster xp, better loot and more coin.

    Getting a group in virtually every modern MMO just takes a few minutes.

    If you can't get a group than that says more about you than the game.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    The average game these days have made it possible for you to get a group in minutes and you get far more loot, far better xp and far ore coin for being in a group.

    Grouping has substantial benefits over soloing in every game on the market. 

    Getting a group is easier and more rewarding than ever before.

    Falsehood Detected!

    Not at all, everything I stated is completely true.

    Virtually every modern MMO today makes it very easy to get into groups.  Grouping does give faster xp, better loot and more coin.

    Getting a group in virtually every modern MMO just takes a few minutes.

    If you can't get a group than that says more about you than the game.

    It is easy to post a message for "4 other people with a pulse for dungeon where there is no challenge and a big carrot all just a few clicks away. No brain or skill needed to WIN!".

    Games where grouping is like this bore me. I want to join a group where I have an important  role to play, not just an extra body.

    As for rewards....I play a game to reward ME, not the pixilated icon on screen. But keep pressing that button for your sweet treat...

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    The average game these days have made it possible for you to get a group in minutes and you get far more loot, far better xp and far ore coin for being in a group.

    Grouping has substantial benefits over soloing in every game on the market. 

    Getting a group is easier and more rewarding than ever before.

    Falsehood Detected!

    Not at all, everything I stated is completely true.

    Virtually every modern MMO today makes it very easy to get into groups.  Grouping does give faster xp, better loot and more coin.

    Getting a group in virtually every modern MMO just takes a few minutes.

    If you can't get a group than that says more about you than the game.

    It is easy to post a message for "4 other people with a pulse for dungeon where there is no challenge and a big carrot all just a few clicks away. No brain or skill needed to WIN!".

    Games where grouping is like this bore me. I want to join a group where I have an important  role to play, not just an extra body.

    As for rewards....I play a game to reward ME, not the pixilated icon on screen. But keep pressing that button for your sweet treat...

    What an individual plays for is subjective.  I play for fun, don't care about the actual gear reward. 

    It still doesn't change any of what I said.  Grouping is easier than ever before, people are doing it all the time and there is a great bonuses for doing so. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

    Yep, see, he still doesn't get it. What you're talking about are games that involve multiple players, baseball, poker, whatever it might be. We're talking about grouping in a game that is largely based on being able to do everything alone. If an MMO was designed where a team was required, just like baseball, then that to you would be 'forced grouping'.

    So while you say people who like the idea of grouping will go and do it because it's fun, then sure, they really will, but only if the game supports it, just like baseball. People who want to group can't do that when the game is Solitaire and nobody wants to play Poker.

     

    I can pull out a deck of cards and play solitaire just as well as I can play poker.  I can pull out a ball and glove and play catch just as well as I can play baseball.  In fact, I can do both of those things in a crowd of other people doing exactly the same thing.  Just having other people around does not obligate me to play with them.

    If there are 50 people in a park throwing a ball up in the air and catching it, that's choice.  If five of those people decide they'd rather join together and play catch, for no reason other than they want to do it, that's choice.  If someone comes along with a gun and outlaws throwing the ball up in the air and catching it because the five guys playing catch want everyone to play with them, that's no longer choice.

    Why are you so blind that you can't see that?

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    I can pull out a deck of cards and play solitaire just as well as I can play poker.  I can pull out a ball and glove and play catch just as well as I can play baseball.  In fact, I can do both of those things in a crowd of other people doing exactly the same thing.  Just having other people around does not obligate me to play with them.

    If there are 50 people in a park throwing a ball up in the air and catching it, that's choice.  If five of those people decide they'd rather join together and play catch, for no reason other than they want to do it, that's choice.  If someone comes along with a gun and outlaws throwing the ball up in the air and catching it because the five guys playing catch want everyone to play with them, that's no longer choice.

    Why are you so blind that you can't see that?

    I've never said that soloing should be completely removed, in fact I'm certain I've said the opposite in quite a few posts, what I am saying though is that if you're at a baseball game and all you decide to do is play catch on your own, then don't expect to be winning any trophies. The game is baseball, you've decided not to play it and just thrown a ball against the wall. You don't win at baseball. Simple, right?

    The baseball team goes on to win trophies (better gear), travels to new arenas (dungeon & raid content), and tries their best to defeat higher ranked teams (bosses). Yet you want to get those exact same things just for throwing a ball against the wall?

  • darkkblackdarkkblack Lowell, NCPosts: 38Member
    I am always down for a small gang roam in eve online. But I do play at random times during the day so it is sometimes easier to just fit a ship and see whats lurking in the next system. 300+ ships in one fleet is tops. 300+vs1 and I manage to take down a few and survive=phenominal   only eve online

    image
  • Dexter2010Dexter2010 Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 244Member Common
    Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

     i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join  a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it. 

    I respectfully disagree. You can only solo grind in WoW for some things eg. leveling. For any loot worth using, you must raid or form groups for dungeon. Even crafting requires both these group activities to get mats and recipes.

    I prefer solo play because it takes forever to arrange a group.

  • SwampRobSwampRob Halifax, NSPosts: 1,008Member
    Originally posted by Dexter2010
    Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

     i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join  a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it. 

    I respectfully disagree. You can only solo grind in WoW for some things eg. leveling. For any loot worth using, you must raid or form groups for dungeon. Even crafting requires both these group activities to get mats and recipes.

    This.

    Grouping in MMOs allows players who reach endgame levels to continue making meaningful progression through a series of increasingly challenging encounters.    And by meaningful progression, I mean better and better gear.

    There is no reason not to allow the soloer the same thing.   It might not be the same content, and it should definitely take longer, but it should still allow for the same quality of rewards to be possible.

     

  • FizzywizzyFizzywizzy Brampton, ONPosts: 4Member

    I can see both sides of this issue, but I have to say that the point of an MMO is party oriented. Now don't get me wrong I do love to Solo a lot as well; but that is a preference, not the overall idea behind MMORPGs.

    It also should be of note that most (not all) developers of MMOs have certain classes (jobs, kits, whatever) that cater better to the idea of solo adventuring; so it's not like they don't recognize the desire of certain players to want and play by themselves if they want.

    One game I do play is Adventure Quest Worlds, that game allows me to change my class whenever I want without having multiple characters. So if I want to solo I can equip a class that caters more to that playstyle, and change back whenever I want without having to change the look of my character because there are no class specific equipments, only skills.

    What it comes down to is that MMOs were kinda designed around the idea of playing in a group hence the second "M" in the game genre "Massively Multi-player Online Role Playing Game".

  • DeVoDeVoDeVoDeVo Outhere, NCPosts: 94Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fizzywizzy

    I can see both sides of this issue, but I have to say that the point of an MMO is party oriented. Now don't get me wrong I do love to Solo a lot as well; but that is a preference, not the overall idea behind MMORPGs.

    It also should be of note that most (not all) developers of MMOs have certain classes (jobs, kits, whatever) that cater better to the idea of solo adventuring; so it's not like they don't recognize the desire of certain players to want and play by themselves if they want.

    One game I do play is Adventure Quest Worlds, that game allows me to change my class whenever I want without having multiple characters. So if I want to solo I can equip a class that caters more to that playstyle, and change back whenever I want without having to change the look of my character because there are no class specific equipments, only skills.

    What it comes down to is that MMOs were kinda designed around the idea of playing in a group hence the second "M" in the game genre "Massively Multi-player Online Role Playing Game".

     

    The term “MMO” is being used to describe every online game these days.  It’s as if people think all things should be the same and that all the online games should be group centric.  If somebody had coined the term Massive Online Game (MOG) back when they first came out, perhaps we wouldn’t be having these discussions.

    I for one am glad that the online industry is evolving and that people are getting more “choice” in how they want to play.  I mean after all, a soloist spends money just like a grouper.

     Developers are realizing just how large and wealthy the solo market is.  They also are realizing that the solo/casual/time-limited crowd has more disposable income and does not consume game content at the rate of the groupers.   They are realizing that the groupers get together with their fellow grouping buddies, faceroll the content, then demand more and more in the forums.

    What I am saying here is this:  All games do not have to be group centric.  All MMOS should not be the same.  That would be quite boring would it not?  There should be variety.

    If I’m paying money for a game, I want to play it the way I want, not the way you want.

  • BeartosserBeartosser Toronto, ONPosts: 92Member

    Elder Scrolls Online is the latest game to promise full progression for solo players, via their crafting system.

    According to it's creative director, Paul Sage, "the gear you get from crafting will be just as viable as that which you get from questing, dungeons, and the like". 

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/7061

    Hopefully these devs are more principled than previous ones, who have fallen measurably short delivering on their promises.

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member

    The answer seems simple, it should naturally always be both. Players play MMOs to play with other people, so their naturally interested in interacting, at least from a gameplay standpoint. I feel Group play should have more incentive since it requires cooperation and the liability of allied shortcomings, as well as the time or effort spent organizing.

    There should also be good solo content, and even solo challenges, but group play is naturally superior, if solo play is your interest... there are more than enough options for you, MMOs arn't the genre to specialize in solo play for certain. But more importantly than even that, is that a game with such an emphasis on retention and extremely long lasting entertainment which wildly outstrips classic console games... it should have both, always both, the answer to MMOs in all aspects should be as all inclusive as possible. Try to produce content which is as wide arching and inclusive as possible to hit the largest combine audience possible, whether it's action or social, sandbox or themepark, group or solo, include it all...

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Beartosser

    Elder Scrolls Online is the latest game to promise full progression for solo players, via their crafting system.

    According to it's creative director, Paul Sage, "the gear you get from crafting will be just as viable as that which you get from questing, dungeons, and the like". 

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/7061

    Hopefully these devs are more principled than previous ones, who have fallen measurably short delivering on their promises.

     

    Um, I think every single MMO that has come out over the last 10 years offered full progression for soloers.

    That is exactly the problem, when will it be our turn? I get the feeling you soloers dont care at all, you want EVERY single game to have FULL solo progression.

    You cry and cry and cry on forums for games that do not offer this. Its become kind of a joke. Can soloers really be that selfish?

    I truely never believed that until recently..... very sad

    image
  • PsYcHoGBRPsYcHoGBR IvybridgePosts: 211Member Uncommon
    I play mmo's with friends and most mmo's that we have played really need to be more group friendly. Ramping up difficulty when in a group would be good, and we just don't bother with the collect quests as they take longer to do in a group than their worth. Why play a multiplayer game solo ? I understand that sometimes there is no one to play with and yes there should be solo play but rewards should be greater for group questing imo so it encourages people to play together DAOC had a group bonus and camp bonus this could be so improved for group questing.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
     

     

    Um, I think every single MMO that has come out over the last 10 years offered full progression for soloers.

    That is exactly the problem, when will it be our turn? I get the feeling you soloers dont care at all, you want EVERY single game to have FULL solo progression.

    You cry and cry and cry on forums for games that do not offer this. Its become kind of a joke. Can soloers really be that selfish?

    I truely never believed that until recently..... very sad

    You are making a lot of generalizations.

    And the issue is not the allowance of  full progression from 1 to cap for soloers. The issue is not having incentive from 1 - cap for players who want to group and making it a different yet compelling experience.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
     

     

    Um, I think every single MMO that has come out over the last 10 years offered full progression for soloers.

    That is exactly the problem, when will it be our turn? I get the feeling you soloers dont care at all, you want EVERY single game to have FULL solo progression.

    You cry and cry and cry on forums for games that do not offer this. Its become kind of a joke. Can soloers really be that selfish?

    I truely never believed that until recently..... very sad

    You are making a lot of generalizations.

    And the issue is not the allowance of  full progression from 1 to cap for soloers. The issue is not having incentive from 1 - cap for players who want to group and making it a different yet compelling experience.

     

    15 years of online gaming means it comes from exp, not generalizations.

    There lots of incentives, its just they are no longer valued, things like simply having fun. Instead its the constant and never ending need to be aquiring something, and doing it in the most effcient way possible or they get testy.

    Your defininition of a compelling experience is not the same as others, so you too are generalizing. See how that works?

    image
Sign In or Register to comment.