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Originally posted by vadess40 My comment is directed to the last paragraph: It requires both skill and gear to play a class. There are plenty of people in MMOs that have the best gear but aren't putting out the best numbers because they have no clue to how to play the class so the moves use/rotation they have matches the gear they've gathered.
I think lots of people are confused about the goal of MMOs. If the goal/challenge is to survive and beat the boss, then it may be "easy".
However, for a lot of players, the goal is to top the meter, or do runs efficiently. That is no longer easy. If you beat the boss 100% of the time, beating him is not winning. However, topping a DPS meter, or doing tough achievement, becomes the win.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by vadess40 My comment is directed to the last paragraph: It requires both skill and gear to play a class. There are plenty of people in MMOs that have the best gear but aren't putting out the best numbers because they have no clue to how to play the class so the moves use/rotation they have matches the gear they've gathered.
Yeah! ANd I also find that it really builds a community when I clear a ops with my progressions ops group. Just hearing the cheers and "YES!" from the people on mumble... brings a tear to my eye. Hence why I made sure all of them were invited to my main's RP wedding. Note, that all of us have to contribute in order for the progression group to work as a team and be great friends.
Been browsing through this thread, and thought I'd clear up a few misconceptions briefly:
1) SW: TOR was a sci-fi RPG, something pretty unusual and unpopular compared to fantasy RPGs, which may explain its failure in part.
2) EVE Online is more like a simulation than an MMORPG.
2) Stop saying WoW Clone. These games are the modern MMORPG. WoW is a great game; buy an original boxed copy and find a way to play on an emulated server and you will see. The WoW of today is simply a financial property and investment; it's not itself any more than a modern Gundam anime today is related to Mobile Suit Gundam 0079, or the modern Everquest is related to the original Everquest. You can tell the loyalists of these games that the creator himself personally spit and stubbed his cigar on the original design documents and they won't care. Stop dragging the name of great games through the mud because the creators didn't fawn over it for several years. I've yet to see a good MMORPG not cannabalize itself with expansions, so I assume it's not possible and imagine Blizzard took that for granted, too. Really, if you villify even Blizzard for making WoW, who can you respect in the MMORPG industry? I'll respect people that have actually made good MMORPGs over speculative and failed ones any day.
4) Not only are MMORPGs not in their infancy, but have existed in the form of MUDs since the '90s. Also, MUDs were almost exclusively solo games--a solo MMORPG can be good (i.e. classic WoW). Just because one or two big budget games, one of which was sci-fi, roughly approximated a once-good game now supported mostly by loyalists, and in its seventh or eight year of existence, and on its fourth expansion, and failed, really means nothing. WoW: Cataclysm or Mists of Pandaria is not a good game? No kidding! The game needs a total wipe and rebalancing to be good again, not another expansion. Most serious WoW players I knew quit before even the first expansion was released, and although a few came back, I doubt many stayed long enough to see the Cataclysm or even the latter part of WotLK, both of which were in exceptionally bad taste and suggestive of very low-wage, untalented designers having something unimportant shoveled off to them.
5) Solo leveling quest-based MMORPGs can be good--virtually any kind of hare-brained, seemingly modern MMORPG can be good if the designers want it to be. But if you design according to market studies, and no one on the team has the balls to say--hey--the game needs to be designed this way, because of so and so, then you will end up with something mediocre like I imagine Rift was (and I still have my doubts as to whether that was a true 'AAA' MMORPG). What other 'AAA' MMORPGs have there been? Aion? Guild Wars 2? Maybe the former was a good game (Lineage 2 was another example of a pretty good solo MMORPG, so I would trust NCSoft), but the latter wasn't really even an MMORPG. It was a lousy mixture of hack-and-slash combat and the trivial, foolish PvP and quest system of Warhammer Online. Are these all your 'AAA' MMORPGs? Sorry, but classic WoW was from a different era. Games these days aren't cloning it, and if you think they are, you truly are not very perceptive of subtleties. WoW was fine-tuned and hand-crafted; it was still based on sound gaming principles. The modern Monty Hall style MMORPG really has no relation to it. WoW was contemporary with some of the paragons of MMORPGs like EQ2 and FFXI; if you think the games of today are even coming close to 'cloning' it, and that their failure somehow represents the lack of viability of a good MMORPG based on the age-old, tried-and-trusted mechanics of the MUDs of the '90s, you are sorely mistaken. Face it: a good game hasn't been made in the genre for at least 6 years. The genre is dead. Gaming doesn't operate in long stretches like that. If good games aren't being released at least every two years in a genre, then that genre is dead. Companies can't even get the basics right; it's like any art form today; they're so obsessed with doing something new, different and modern, yet have no classical foundation or understanding in their art, that what they ultimately design is just garbage. But why be surprised? Single player gaming has been dead for even longer than multiplayer. It was about time that this died, too. The fact that people now believe the only alternative to bad game design (what they call 'themepark') is something completely different and fairly untraditional (what they call 'sandbox') goes to show how far the industry has fallen. Which is why I only play single-player games from the 70s, 80s and 90s any more.
Originally posted by CalmOceans Well that's my conclusion after thinking about it. While MMO do well and sell well, they are not really MMO anymore, they're all small scale dungeon instancers (LoL, Vindictus), solo quest grinders (WoW SWOTOR), , or glorified action Hack & Slash multiplayer games (Tera, GW2). I haven't seen a game with a true community where the primary focus was the world and human interaction and the gameplay came second in MMO in a number of years. Now the gameplay is frist and if it isn't too much trouble maybe you'll be interacting with someone too, and if no ones interacts, join an artificial bubble called a guild and interact in the bubble. Most people don't need MMO to interact online, there are plenty of chat opportunities, facebook, twitter, disqus, liveFire, forums, email, messengers, smartphones, youtube. You have all these ways to interact with people you want, there is way too much noise to make a world where people will be truly immersed and willing to spend time with each other in a game outside of gameplay. There's no need for it anymore, there are thousands of other and arguably better ways to interact online. I think the term MMO lives on even though the games are now becomes multiplayer action games, but the idea behind MMO is long gone I think, it's replaced by other communities online that are far easier and more effective way to interact.
I don't think so. I think they went down a dead end for a long time trying to copy WoW's success and are just starting to reel back now - that still means a long wait though.
MMORPGs are not dying, they are just evolving. Unfortunately, that evolution is taking them away from their roots as community-driven, social games where people get to band together, invest in their character and guild, and share a good time. Now they are just ways to pass time.
I have given up looking at mainstream MMORPGs for now. What is on the horizon there does not interest me; same old, same old. I am hoping Camelot Unchained will be different by getting back to social gameplay.
I was a having a look at Lotro the other day, the open world vistas, the undulating terrain. Modern “ribbon worlds” do not match up.
Graphics is not just about quality, its about implementation. If your MMO is on a flat surface in a ribbon zone that is not a graphical advancement.
Modern easyMMO’s hardly deserve the “MMO” in the title. Old MMO’s have passed, like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow.
Only time will tell if the upcoming sandbox/themepark hybrid MMO’s will turn the tide. I don’t think they will, the market is too saturated, you can find a new niche, but poor quality MMOs are here to stay.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
Everything in this world, including how people game and socialize, evolves. The way I hang out with my friends now is not the same as the way people hung out with friends 10, 20, 100, 200 years ago. To presume that things can and always will remain the same is... well, to put it quite frankly is grasping at thin air really as human history has no grounds for it, especially since the turn of the 20th century in which change spead up at a dramatic rate (note this rate is continuing to get faster as faster as time moves on).
Personally, I don't think change/evolution is the issue that should be addressed, as it is an inevitable truth about the society we live in. Rather, I'd say the real issue is how can I evolve with the market and still get the social and community aspects of online games? I think the answer is simply that I have to go find it as it won't come to me. If I choose to go find it, instead of wait for it to come to me, then there are plenty of ways for me to do sofrom forming a guild to participating constructively in general chat discussions to simply saying hi when I get into a group via Group Finder .
So.. where comes the part where the OP explains how he or she is trying to build community in the MMOs he/she plays given how MMORPGs are evolving?
[quote]Originally posted by Nikopol[b][quote]
Even in WOW, the MMO that - for many - brought polished combat to the MMO scene, I remember a lot of people getting bored of the game itself and just sticking around for the community.
Come on, WOW: the game where people are not interested to see what gamer they encounter but rather the gear he brings to help someone progress themselves in the game?The game that has changed into a instanced lobby?
What the OP is experiencing with his "MMO ARE DYING" is that the traditional cookie cutter healer-tank-dps leveling template themepark MMO's are dying.
And thank God for that.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Why do people think they need to make this thread on a weekly basis.... because they had a bad experience in a few games ?
Just boggles the mind how people take personal mishaps and then decide its the end of an entire style of games.
I started follow Darkfall on forumfall back in 2003 and it was still realy about old school then slowly it change around 2005-6 by the time when they announced beta in 2008 it became worsed community on forums keep demand manding featers we as true fans never wanted but harm was already done from 60k community went up to 350k mainly comming from themeparks we all know.
Darkfall was never the game Claus visioned to be but players made crap out of it by demanding constantly change to easy gameplay and darkfal slowly died now we have even a worse copy of darkfall unholy wars thats not worth any attention.
I reasondly came back to AC2 old school mmo and community change in many ways so much that im affraid as soon devs learn the gamecode again its going dumbdownhill.
MMO will never be as before 2004 thats fact.
Originally posted by Voiidiin Why do people think they need to make this thread on a weekly basis.... because they had a bad experience in a few games ? Just boggles the mind how people take personal mishaps and then decide its the end of an entire style of games.
I think it's cause they need something to complain about, and are not really interested to evolving along with the games in order to make things better.
Originally posted by tupodawg999
The good devs already went different directions like ARPG (PoE), MOBA (LOL), instanced pvp (WOT, Star Conflict), MMOFPS (Defiance).
There is a lot of talk about MMO’s evolving, does it stand up? Have the dinosaurs of the MMO world died out? Think back to EQ, UO, AC etc. No they have not.
With each new generation MMO’s are becoming diminished, faltering clones which wither on the vine after a few months. There is the odd success, but it is a rare one. Will GW2 have the longevity of EQ or UO? I doubt it.
If you want evidence MMO’s are dying, consider this. Do you play your old solo games? The ones from twelve years ago? Ok maybe your system can't run those anymore, what about from four years ago? No you do not; modern solo games are still seen as worthy successors of the old. Why are players still playing EQ, UO, and WoW? Why have they not been blown away by modern MMO’s?
Because modern MMO’s are by comparison shallow and very limited in gameplay.
You're right, the acronym MMO is now synonymous to any online game with multiplayer aspects. But tha'ts not necessarily a bad thing. Think about how many more people are now playing online games. It's become something that's almost viewed as normal.
I would much rather have the choice to play a 20 minute action game than be forced to play a single type of game, namely quest and gear grinding, in traditional MMOs. The main problem with the interactions that you want is the fact that people will find any way to screw the other guy or the system.
Trading interactions infected with bot farmers, PvP with griefers, the guy who messes up zone chat, exploiting systems then crying "well they should have known!" These are the people to blame for ruining your interaction games.
After playing a lot of gw2 and helping others kill monsters if feels completely alien to not help people in almost all other MMOs. However it has this horrrible problem of people not really talking to one another. I still feel that GW2 has the most potential of all MMOs out there. Yeah I said it. The question of whether it has reached it's potential is up for arguement. For me it's not quite where I would like it yet. A little bit more to do out in the world - a couple more world bosses, hidden secret world bosses maybe?
Vistas are a stupid part of GW2, I feel that the effort there should have been spent on doing cutscenes with those badass views instead of forcing them on us for map completion.
Traditional MMOs won't work anymore because we are sick of them. We need something better and newer than everything we already have. While we wait for 'that' MMO we have a ton of new smaller MMOs to play!
Path of Exile is pretty win for a party mmo. Mechwarrior Online has a lot of potential. Age of Wushu (plagued with bots) is a good example of a near traditional MMO with nifty new features like offline NPC mode and being free to learn badass kung fu moves with awesome names like Seven Star Deadly Strike or Falling Crane Sweep.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
Originally posted by Scot There is a lot of talk about MMO’s evolving, does it stand up? Have the dinosaurs of the MMO world died out? Think back to EQ, UO, AC etc. No they have not. With each new generation MMO’s are becoming diminished, faltering clones which wither on the vine after a few months. There is the odd success, but it is a rare one. Will GW2 have the longevity of EQ or UO? I doubt it. If you want evidence MMO’s are dying, consider this. Do you play your old solo games? The ones from twelve years ago? Ok maybe your system can't run those anymore, what about from four years ago? No you do not; modern solo games are still seen as worthy successors of the old. Why are players still playing EQ, UO, and WoW? Why have they not been blown away by modern MMO’s? Because modern MMO’s are by comparison shallow and very limited in gameplay.
I agree on play old solo games no.
Its offcorse matter of taste and opinion how others see this but i think there still amazing solo games made name few:
The Witcher 2
These for me are TOP NOTCH solo games.
For me personal i can't mention any superb mmo(closed for me Darkfall1) released in past 9 years.
Im not looking forward to any MMO at moment.
But im eagerly awaiting THE WITCHER 3 i think this will SHAKE the whole solo rpg genre ten fold.
Originally posted by Scot If you want evidence MMO’s are dying, consider this. Do you play your old solo games? The ones from twelve years ago? Ok maybe your system can't run those anymore, what about from four years ago? No you do not; modern solo games are still seen as worthy successors of the old. Why are players still playing EQ, UO, and WoW? Why have they not been blown away by modern MMO’s? Because modern MMO’s are by comparison shallow and very limited in gameplay.
I am not playing old MMO either. EQ and UO are thrown away by modern MMO like games. There are order of magnitudes more players that play D3, PoE, LoL, WOT, GW2 .. than EQ and UO.
WOW is the only odd man out.
It is because modern MMOs and MMO-like games are much better games.
Originally posted by JudgeUK I believe the title of the post is misleading, rather it should be traditional mmo's with good social interactions are dying - but that's got near zero headline attraction. So the current headline is working in attracting comment, although a little sensational in relation to the actual well thought out post.
So what? That's like saying "traditional cars that you have to crank to start are dying". Big deal. The reality is that the majority of players of MMOs simply do not like the traditional MMO model and the market has changed to accomodate them. MMOs aren't dying at all, they're more popular than they've ever been, there's just a small, but very vocal minority who doesn't like the direction they've gone.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots moreRelatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots moreNow Playing: NoneHope: None
Originally posted by DavisFlight Dying? They're stone dead. They've been dead for a solid 8 years now.
Yup, the multi-billion dollar a year industry is dead. Riiiiiiight...
Originally posted by NorseGod Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by NorseGod
Doesn't change the fact that these amazing games you boast about coming out every year only last a month or so, or, technically they last :rollseyes:, I mean hobble along with gimmicks.
So what? A great fun 1 month is better than a mediocre 1 year.
Entertainment does not have to be long to be good. Is a longer movie always better? Is a longer novel always better?
True. But what about those MMOs that were good to play for years at a time?
I honestly don't know that they really were good to play for years at a time. Back in the day, those were the only choices you had, if you wanted to play an MMO, you could pick from product A, B or C. It really wasn't much of a choice and people stuck with games, not because the games were great, but because it was all there was. I got pretty damn bored with a lot of those games back then, but if I wanted to play that kind of game... there it was.
Just because a relatively few people sit on a game for years at a time doesn't really mean it's great overall.
First of all I agree with the guy above me (excuse the hyperlinked text as mmorpg.com messed it all up). I played Asheron's Call for over 5 years, but now that I think of it.. it wasn't amazing. It was pretty good, but in the end I found myself quiting and re-subbing for one simple reason, there was literally nothing else to play.
However I disagree that there isn't any hope at all. There is some, EoC looks ok, Origins of Malu looks to shaping up very nicely. Archeage also comes to mind, and one of my favorite sounding ones is Divergence.
You could check out this game and see if you think MMO's are truly dead. They will be if more projects like this dont start pushing larger companies to be inventive. Maybe it wont be a huge success, maybe it wont live up to everything it says it will, but it's a start, and you have to start pushing to start anything.
<a data-cke-saved-href="http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Cephus404" href="http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Cephus404" title="View information about Cephus404" suhlink"="">
They also interviewed the guy here on mmorpg.com:
(It sucks you dont wanna see it)
Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by DavisFlight Dying? They're stone dead. They've been dead for a solid 8 years now.
Come on we have had all these arguments before, if an industry is still making money that does not mean the newer product is better. You can have an inferior product, which you sell to more people and make lots of money. That's where MMO's are rigjht now.
And the industry is looking to sell to even more people, expanding into the social media market. With games on small screen platforms with smaller processing power and memory. They are making lots of money though, are you going to say these games on mobiles and tablets are better as well?
MMOs of the past weren't that different from multiplayer games. The concepts of a persistent, online world, was still new and developing, but that doesn't mean they were better. Past, and current, MMOs are still the same in concept; online worlds, sharing the same virtual space, whether instanced or open-world. Both instances and open-world concepts are used differently and work for different purposes.
To suggest that MMOs are dying because they use different mechanics, designs, and alogrithms, for different purposes, is nonsense.
I agree with the OP in many ways. Community was #1, now its last.
What I don't agree is that its because of the players choice. Now that is what everyone thinks so I understand where the OP gets this from. BUT DEVELOPERS MADE THE CHANGES ON THERE OWN.