Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....
I miss those days...
You were doing the same thing in multiple places. That is still just one way of leveling you are just doing it in different places. Most games launched today have more ways of leveling than EQ had. You couldn't level from pvp, you couldn't level from gathering/crafting, you didn't get xp from exploring new places. You killed stuff, that was it. Don't get me wrong, 90% of what you do now is kill stuff also, but my main point is there was really only 1 way to gain xp in everquest, you could just do it in more places.
Let's not lie to ourselves. The only viable way to level up in modern MMOs is to grind quests. In old MMOs I could level up through 4 different PvE means. Now there is only one.
What were the 4 means of pve leveling? I don't really consider choosing to kite 2 mobs instead of pulling one a different way of pve leveling, but I know that my opinion isn't the end all be all either and others can and will disagree with me. I did nothing but run dungions after level 15 in wow a few years ago, and another toon I did nothing but do bg's. I will say that I wish there were more variety for those that want to mob grind if they want. I think that is my current gripe with mmos, I have fun in most that I have played but I do want more variety when it comes to the "meat" of leveling.
*See SWTOR* $300 million squandered...that could of MADE that MMORPG osiriszoren spoke of.
It would take a lot more than just money to make that game. Do you really think EA/BW would be up to that challenge? How many developers would be? It would be a huge mistake at any rate. Spend a fraction of that on making a very solid niche MMO. Make sure that people know it is going to be a niche MMO and it will not be changing to try and please the masses. Keep your costs low enough that you can still make a profit off of 250-300k players. You really cant do that with a $300 million debt and a IP that you don't own.
I think the open air dungeons are more for the people who want that sense of danger and excitement that comes with player interaction in the form of grouping to prevent pvp or to start pvp. Alot of funtimes and interesting drama can be started by controlling/fighting over a dungeon and can lead to a sense of great accomplishment.
But not everyone like PvP in their dungeon crawl. In fact, most people are on pve servers with no open pvp.
And i also don't see why you need a open air dungeon to do what you just said .. a instanced pvp dungeon with both pvp opponent and NPC bosses can do the same.
Because you want to keep a MMORPG as open as possible. People who dont like pvp in their dungeon crawl can do the dungeons with instances, but if they want to get whatever is on the outdoor dungeon boss they better be willing to fight for it. Thats called appealing to both pvpers and pvers.
Why? MMORPG are games .. which gameplay experience is important. There is no inherent reason to keep things "as open as possible". And who says pvpers and pvers wants their pvp & pve mixed.
You can appeal to both simply by having Pve Instances, and pvp instances. WOW is doing a good job of that. If you think mixing them up should be popular, then most people would want to be on a pvp server doing world boss, and as we know world boss & pvp servers are not that popular.
Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....
I miss those days...
Agreed, I feel like I'm the only one that just wants to wander around and kill stuff to advance. Every game is all linear questing now and it's a borefest by comparison.
*See SWTOR* $300 million squandered...that could of MADE that MMORPG osiriszoren spoke of.
TOR seems to do well after going F2P. Sub is up. 2M new players joined. And a new expansion is coming.
All of the content TOR has released up to this point (including the expac) was developed before the game even launched. We have now reached the point where they no longer have any pre-developed content, so TOR has reached a breaking point.
Either F2P has given it enough life to move forward & start to delvelop new content. Or the game will start to swirl the toilet bowl. Only time will tell which direction it will take.
*See SWTOR* $300 million squandered...that could of MADE that MMORPG osiriszoren spoke of.
TOR seems to do well after going F2P. Sub is up. 2M new players joined. And a new expansion is coming.
All of the content TOR has released up to this point (including the expac) was developed before the game even launched. We have now reached the point where they no longer have any pre-developed content, so TOR has reached a breaking point.
Either F2P has given it enough life to move forward & start to delvelop new content. Or the game will start to swirl the toilet bowl. Only time will tell which direction it will take.
At least subs of the game is up. We shall see. They claim to be the second biggest sub game now. I bet they are way bigger than Eve now.
Two million subs in a F2P game means little more than higher bandwidth costs for the game company.
The game is heavily advertised in stores and on the internet; other than WoW it is the ONLY heavily advertised MMO in existence. There is a sucker born every minute. Of course millions are doing the free trial. Advertising pays; something SOE never got into their thick skull.
Once the current crop of suckers is exhausted, they can only hope their efforts have chipped away at that $200mil development cost.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....
I miss those days...
Agreed, I feel like I'm the only one that just wants to wander around and kill stuff to advance. Every game is all linear questing now and it's a borefest by comparison.
I *still* like Eve's system the best.
I was skeptical of it at first, and it's not without it's flaws; but it really does wonders for taking the 'railroad' feel out of advancement and freeing you up to enjoy the rest of the game. You can literally just wander around even doing absolutely nothing but seeing the sights if that's what floats your boat, without worrying that you're falling behind on the levelling game.
And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....
EQ had/has 1000s of quests but 95% have a really bad cost/benefit - mostly the time it takes to get the quest reward is longer than it takes to get something better - so people only did the few that were ok so over time it seemed there were only a few.
What i'd like is EQ style zones with lots of different areas with different levelled mobs to grind on *and* lots of EQ style optional quests that you could do if you wanted the reward but this time not designed by angry sadists.
The more i play EQ again after playing so many other games since the more i think the basic design of EQ was sound and most of the problems with it were to do with the original difficulty* setting being about 20% too high for the zones and about 30% too high for most of the quests - especially the low level ones.
*difficulty including mob difficulty but also things like rare spawns, rare drops etc i.e. things taking three hours that should have just been one.
Originally posted by Quirhid Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.
is there really that much of a difference between
" i need to kill 40 monsters to level-up"
vs
"that guy with the mark over his head said to kill these 40 monsters, and i'll level-up"
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
I dont' want to quest or grind anymore. I want someone to make a creative game with genetic coding in it. Games will not advance until the system their played on does. PvP and PvE needs to be kept completely separated. So when the PvP whine they wont change my game or gimp my char.
Give me back the old school grind over these quests any day. The grinding wasn't about the grind or the progression to endgame (yes grand scheme it was on everyones to do list). It was about grouping up with random people/friends and simply enjoying each others company. Back in the grinding days my friends list was always overflowing. But in todays MMO's people hardly talk at all. Interaction between players is at a minimum... I would rather interact with other people than the stupid yellow exclamation point over a NPC's head.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....
Originally posted by Jemcrystal I dont' want to quest or grind anymore. I want someone to make a creative game with genetic coding in it. Games will not advance until the system their played on does. PvP and PvE needs to be kept completely separated. So when the PvP whine they wont change my game or gimp my char.
Already done in many modern games. WOT, LOL, Star Conflict is pvp only .. no PvE at all. D3, PoE, Marvel Heroes are mostly PvE. In fact, even in games with both ... like STO ... they are separate. It is not like Devs don't know they need to keep them separate.
Comments
What were the 4 means of pve leveling? I don't really consider choosing to kite 2 mobs instead of pulling one a different way of pve leveling, but I know that my opinion isn't the end all be all either and others can and will disagree with me. I did nothing but run dungions after level 15 in wow a few years ago, and another toon I did nothing but do bg's. I will say that I wish there were more variety for those that want to mob grind if they want. I think that is my current gripe with mmos, I have fun in most that I have played but I do want more variety when it comes to the "meat" of leveling.
It would take a lot more than just money to make that game. Do you really think EA/BW would be up to that challenge? How many developers would be? It would be a huge mistake at any rate. Spend a fraction of that on making a very solid niche MMO. Make sure that people know it is going to be a niche MMO and it will not be changing to try and please the masses. Keep your costs low enough that you can still make a profit off of 250-300k players. You really cant do that with a $300 million debt and a IP that you don't own.
TOR seems to do well after going F2P. Sub is up. 2M new players joined. And a new expansion is coming.
Why? MMORPG are games .. which gameplay experience is important. There is no inherent reason to keep things "as open as possible". And who says pvpers and pvers wants their pvp & pve mixed.
You can appeal to both simply by having Pve Instances, and pvp instances. WOW is doing a good job of that. If you think mixing them up should be popular, then most people would want to be on a pvp server doing world boss, and as we know world boss & pvp servers are not that popular.
Agreed, I feel like I'm the only one that just wants to wander around and kill stuff to advance. Every game is all linear questing now and it's a borefest by comparison.
All of the content TOR has released up to this point (including the expac) was developed before the game even launched. We have now reached the point where they no longer have any pre-developed content, so TOR has reached a breaking point.
Either F2P has given it enough life to move forward & start to delvelop new content. Or the game will start to swirl the toilet bowl. Only time will tell which direction it will take.
At least subs of the game is up. We shall see. They claim to be the second biggest sub game now. I bet they are way bigger than Eve now.
Two million subs in a F2P game means little more than higher bandwidth costs for the game company.
The game is heavily advertised in stores and on the internet; other than WoW it is the ONLY heavily advertised MMO in existence. There is a sucker born every minute. Of course millions are doing the free trial. Advertising pays; something SOE never got into their thick skull.
Once the current crop of suckers is exhausted, they can only hope their efforts have chipped away at that $200mil development cost.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I *still* like Eve's system the best.
I was skeptical of it at first, and it's not without it's flaws; but it really does wonders for taking the 'railroad' feel out of advancement and freeing you up to enjoy the rest of the game. You can literally just wander around even doing absolutely nothing but seeing the sights if that's what floats your boat, without worrying that you're falling behind on the levelling game.
The Bioware that made Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, I believe would have been up to that challenge.
The current incarnation, I'm not so sure of.
EQ had/has 1000s of quests but 95% have a really bad cost/benefit - mostly the time it takes to get the quest reward is longer than it takes to get something better - so people only did the few that were ok so over time it seemed there were only a few.
What i'd like is EQ style zones with lots of different areas with different levelled mobs to grind on *and* lots of EQ style optional quests that you could do if you wanted the reward but this time not designed by angry sadists.
The more i play EQ again after playing so many other games since the more i think the basic design of EQ was sound and most of the problems with it were to do with the original difficulty* setting being about 20% too high for the zones and about 30% too high for most of the quests - especially the low level ones.
*difficulty including mob difficulty but also things like rare spawns, rare drops etc i.e. things taking three hours that should have just been one.
is there really that much of a difference between
" i need to kill 40 monsters to level-up"
vs
"that guy with the mark over his head said to kill these 40 monsters, and i'll level-up"
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I feel you.
Already done in many modern games. WOT, LOL, Star Conflict is pvp only .. no PvE at all. D3, PoE, Marvel Heroes are mostly PvE. In fact, even in games with both ... like STO ... they are separate. It is not like Devs don't know they need to keep them separate.