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Does a crafter class really make sense?

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  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    Originally posted by meddyck

    I'm not sure it does.

    This class will play an important role in various siege related things according to Mark. But as anybody who played DAOC, WAR, etc. will tell you, not all of your time in RvR is spent sieging. If you have a crafter in your group in an open field battle, you will be at a big disadvantage against an enemy group full of the other classes.

    I suppose it is possible crafters will also get weak combat abilities. But if you are going to do that, why not just make crafting like it is in other games including DAOC: something you can train in addition to your regular class rather than a class in itself? Then you could be a caster/crafter, tank/crafter, healer/crafter, etc.

    I'm just not seeing the advantage or need for crafting to be a class by itself.

    The fact that the idea wouldn't have made sense in DAoC or WAR really has no bearing on whether or not it makes sense in CU.  New game, new mechanics.  Being built from the ground up with an entire crafting class in mind.  Yes, it makes sense. 

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by redcapp

    *snip*

    The fact that the idea wouldn't have made sense in DAoC or WAR really has no bearing on whether or not it makes sense in CU.  New game, new mechanics.  Being built from the ground up with an entire crafting class in mind.  Yes, it makes sense. 

    This.  I'm all for lively discussion and good ol' fashioned theorycraft... but until we know a little more about the design of the game, we really can't tell how useful, squishy, overplayed, gimped or any other adjective the class will be.

    I am hopeful the design will make crafters powerful, useful and very playable.  Again, I think it's kinda silly to try to conjure up the class and its abilities (we really don't know what they will be) and then plop them into DAoC (we really don't know how similar or dissimilar CU will be to DAoC.)

     

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • Daventry85Daventry85 Altoona, PAPosts: 7Member

    I think this is a Love and Hate situation , i alot of the time try out a games crafting mechanics and enjoy it. I think it may be frustrating in a sense if you have no battle skills and have to go in dangerous conflicted zones to gather the best materials and you just get rolled without any skills of your own...

     

    However i still think it is a risk vs reward that i enjoy. I'm sure there are alot more into it , maybe they get speed boost / cc abilities of their own for survival. I think this comes back to some of my fond DaoC memorys that he was talking about for unique experiences.

     

    Picture mining a rare node in comes enemy realms, you have perfectly set traps and a escape route ready to be used and you survive to tell the tale it would be exciting.

     

    Im all for it.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,284Member Uncommon

    Crafter class is pretty cool, but can't everyone craft?

  • evil13evil13 Burlington, MAPosts: 359Member Common

    Think of miners (or haulers/traders) in EVE they had no defense too and the most expensive ore was in low sec and 0.0 security (where you could be killed) so guilds would organize mining operations, complete with defense and even scouts to make sure a raid wasn't coming.

     

    No reason it couldn't work like this in CU. If you want that shiny sword and don't want to pay a fortune for it, you better run as an escort for that crafter. As long as risk vs reward makes sense, it wouldn't be a problem.

     

    PS: or they could make a crafter into a sort of engineer on steroids, complete with bombs, traps, mines, auto shooting cannons etc. Though based on what Mark said so far it doesn't seem to be the direction they are taking.

  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon

    This is what I have gathered so far on crafters…

    Yes everyone can craft but non crafter classes are limited to the basic tier so they can repair their own gear to some degree, make ammo, help repair defenses and maybe build your own basic home.  To make anything from the higher tiers of crafting you will have to be a crafter.

    As to RvR participation I have a far fewer details other that building all the structures and siege equipment as well as repairing the same.

    Now for what I’d like to see the crafter to be able to do in RvR that is an extensive list and will be expressed at a later time.  But I do see a crafter as not having any offensive skill himself but can run like the wind and drop all sorts of nasty devices to thwart his pressures (limited supply).  Mainly I expect to be building defensive positions along with crowd funneling devices.

    Grog

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon

    my sister (basically the most beloved person in my life) is in the army reserves; she plays PC games casually but isnt a gamer like me.

     

    when i explained to her that in this game you could basically be "logistics" even she was very interested in playing it.

     

    i bet she's not alone :)

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

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    Henry Rollins

  • Scrat^ITAScrat^ITA PistoiaPosts: 17Member
    I love the idea of a full crafter class, I'll probably focus on that and casually play a "warrior" alt

    Tusken Raiders - Your Italian Guild on Star Wars: The Old Republic

  • SorninSornin Richmond, BCPosts: 1,133Member
    I really hope ex-SWG players hear about how fleshed-out crafting in Camelot Unchained will be. I know many of them loved that aspect of SWG and I bet thousands would pledge to a game promising a deep crafting system where you actually had a real role. Crafting in most games these days is something you do for fun after you max your level, and it is a boring grind to make anything semi-decent, which is still eclipsed by drops.

    image

  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Toronto, ONPosts: 263Member

    I've been thinking and what I am envisioning is this.

    Progression is supposed to be more lateral, right? No crushing brand new people just because, etc.

    As ClassX, you level up and I guess primarily gain new skills. While going from not having a heal to having a heal is vastly powerful, your actual damage/etc don't necessarily increase by much.

    You have your base attacks, whatever yoru class provides you, and then you grab more skills as you level up (Did anyone play planetside? It had a great system for this, with 24-hour respec windows)

    Now, as a crafter (read: "Engineer") - you have base combat skills.

    As you level up, you gain more crafting skills (beyond what the regular folk learn), as well as maybe traps/etc.

    So while you can contribute at a base level in a group fight (traps, entry level skills), where you really shine is a siege. (turrets, walls, trebuchets etc)

    Because you have combat capability - and maybe more utility (think nearsight or PBAE disease type of stuff) - you're not a dead slot in a group.

    IMO a combat-capable version is the best way to go.

    People who just want to craft will be free to do so - and level up that way - but if you DO take part in combat, you're not just standing around praying that we take that keep for you.

    Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
    Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
    Healer, Warrior, Skald

  • DaizeddDaizedd Salon de ProvencePosts: 142Member
    Crafters should NOT be able to fight period. You wanna fight, roll a non-crafter toon. I think the game will be way more interesting if crafters NEED protection from fighting chars just as much as fighting chars will NEED what crafters can make.

    image
  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Toronto, ONPosts: 263Member
    Originally posted by Daizedd
    Crafters should NOT be able to fight period. You wanna fight, roll a non-crafter toon. I think the game will be way more interesting if crafters NEED protection from fighting chars just as much as fighting chars will NEED what crafters can make.

    I think this would be a big mistake.

    Yes, you should absolutely NOT have to engage in combat- but considering it's an actual class, I think base combat is OK. Considering the lateral advancement(probably?) this could work well.

     

    But nobody wants to waste a group slot on someone who can't contribute to the battle untill we siege a keep. And as fun as escorting crafters to/from a siege is, it'd be nice if you could bring someone without without carrying them.

     

    edit: fixed a slip that changed the entire post aha.

    Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
    Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
    Healer, Warrior, Skald

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon
  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by Daizedd
    Crafters should NOT be able to fight period. You wanna fight, roll a non-crafter toon. I think the game will be way more interesting if crafters NEED protection from fighting chars just as much as fighting chars will NEED what crafters can make.

    I agree.  Nor should healers be able to fight... or casters... or stealthers, either!  And there's NO WAY a speed buff class should be able to fight... period.

    Come on, Daizedd.  That's just kinda silly.  Everyone CAN fight... how WELL they can fight is another matter.  I wouldn't take a caster into melee... but that caster can certainly swing a staff or dagger if prevented from casting.

    I agree with your point that crafters should need protection... just as a caster or healer should.  But to eliminate any fighting ability is over the top.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • DaizeddDaizedd Salon de ProvencePosts: 142Member

    Right, I'll modify my statement slightly; crafters should not be able to survive a 1v1 against a fighting OR even a healing class. There is a reasoning behind this:

    1) Choice matters. You choose to be a crafter class you shouldn't have your cake and eat it.

    2) As an RvR class, going out in defense of a crafter(s) is part of the coordination/community building and interesting stuff that will make this game great. If crafters can fend for themselves, then RvR  fighters should be able to craft beyond journeyman (all a journeyman can do is make basic repairs). It will just make for a boring, everyone can do everything game. I just know MJ will not do this.

    image
  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    I want crafters to have some smuggling like abilities. Some cheep moves that have huge cooldowns and give them a chance to run, but nothing that gives them the advantage, just gives them a second to run.

    I also think they should be able to use what they have as a weapon to do some white damage. For ex. if they have high level mining then they can hit you with the pick, or maybe they have 1 move, for one stun with the pick, then they can start to run away.

    The above make for a much more interesting experience. If the crafters have no defense, they will just log off at the first sign of trouble and relog as their warrior whom they have stationed near by.

  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Toronto, ONPosts: 263Member
    Originally posted by Daizedd

    Right, I'll modify my statement slightly; crafters should not be able to survive a 1v1 against a fighting OR even a healing class. There is a reasoning behind this:

    1) Choice matters. You choose to be a crafter class you shouldn't have your cake and eat it.

    2) As an RvR class, going out in defense of a crafter(s) is part of the coordination/community building and interesting stuff that will make this game great. If crafters can fend for themselves, then RvR  fighters should be able to craft beyond journeyman (all a journeyman can do is make basic repairs). It will just make for a boring, everyone can do everything game. I just know MJ will not do this.

    it's not about fending for yourself or soloing; it's about being to contribute to a group outside of "lol let me build a fort here", IMO.

    Having some base combat skills + some utlilty (traps/whatever) goes a long way to convincing people to drag crafters around - and the crafters get to have some fun in a group vs group encounter, instead of "wake me when we start a siege"

    Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
    Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
    Healer, Warrior, Skald

  • DaizeddDaizedd Salon de ProvencePosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

     If the crafters have no defense, they will just log off at the first sign of trouble and relog as their warrior whom they have stationed near by.

    My point is if they have no to little defense, then they will need to organise with RvRers if they want to do stuff in dangerous territory and this makes for a much more community oriented and player-organised game.

    image
  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by Daizedd

    Right, I'll modify my statement slightly; crafters should not be able to survive a 1v1 against a fighting OR even a healing class. There is a reasoning behind this:

    1) Choice matters. You choose to be a crafter class you shouldn't have your cake and eat it.

    2) As an RvR class, going out in defense of a crafter(s) is part of the coordination/community building and interesting stuff that will make this game great. If crafters can fend for themselves, then RvR  fighters should be able to craft beyond journeyman (all a journeyman can do is make basic repairs). It will just make for a boring, everyone can do everything game. I just know MJ will not do this.

    Agreed.  I'm hoping we'll see some cool abilities like setting traps and such so they won't be dead weight in a group in a non-siege setting.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Daizedd
    Originally posted by Xobdnas  If the crafters have no defense, they will just log off at the first sign of trouble and relog as their warrior whom they have stationed near by.
    My point is if they have no to little defense, then they will need to organise with RvRers if they want to do stuff in dangerous territory and this makes for a much more community oriented and player-organised game.

    I agree with that concept completely. With the few abilities I mentioned they would still rely on other players, it would just make it more exciting for them for a split second.

  • DaizeddDaizedd Salon de ProvencePosts: 142Member

    The reason people will be willing to "drag" crafters along is often the crafter will be the reason they are going somewhere in the first place. For example a crafter needs to mine a rare resource in a dangerous RvR area; his fighter guildies come along to defend him getting there and then while he mines. In fact I envision crafters almost like quest-givers who need things out there and are in search of adventurers to come help defend them in the wildlands.

     

    edit: this is a reaction to Bela's last post, sorry forgot to quote

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  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon
    Back in the day before the CU on swg we had crafters who that was their profession.  Some of us actually advertised how we were specialized out. Not all crafters at that time could craft the same identical thing.  Some of us made stuff a lot better than just normal folks who dabbled in it.  I had a master driod smith, every time we went to the dwb, I could garantee that if our group got us to the crafting station, I could garantee you a jetpack, I never once failed creating one.  Others in our guild tried and lost components, and those were hard to come by.   I see nothing wrong with having a dedicated crafter class, as long as they give them survivability. 
  • DaizeddDaizedd Salon de ProvencePosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by erictlewis
     as long as they give them survivability. 

    I am certainly not arguing that they would be one-shot if attacked. They should maybe have one escape and certainly decent leather armor and some HP. BUT, going after an opponent's crafters should be a viable strategy, ie they should be killable and easier to kill/unable to cause serious dammage compared to a fighter. A crafter should be able to avoid death for a few minutes but a crafter left undefended for too long is screwed... he needs help out there. Fighters need crafters for  the cool stuff they can make/ crafters need fighters to get the stuff used to make the cool stuff. This makes for a real economy of give and take.

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  • I'm curious as to the amount of self-sufficiency the crafter will have.  Will he/she in effect be a guild crafter because of the amount of support they will need from other people to get materials or advance?

    The downside of that scenario is if said guild crafter leaves the guild or quits the game after considerable resources have been invested in their development.

    If they can be more self-sufficient, then obviously there will be many alt crafters due to low cost of investment.

  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Toronto, ONPosts: 263Member
    Originally posted by Daizedd

    The reason people will be willing to "drag" crafters along is often the crafter will be the reason they are going somewhere in the first place. For example a crafter needs to mine a rare resource in a dangerous RvR area; his fighter guildies come along to defend him getting there and then while he mines. In fact I envision crafters almost like quest-givers who need things out there and are in search of adventurers to come help defend them in the wildlands.

     

    edit: this is a reaction to Bela's last post, sorry forgot to quote

    I imagine anyone will be able to farm resources if such a thing exists.

    However I can easily see myself having essentially a "buffbot" account with a crafter, if they're not going to be a viable part of combat.

    Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
    Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
    Healer, Warrior, Skald

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