Soon you have TES the original solo game series and you have TESO that only share part of name and some gamelore, but 2 totally different games.
It prolly will implement more featers from other games then original TES so it can be some kind version from DAOC implemented but not realy any ressambling with orignal TES game, Thats why im not realy interested in this themepark mmo for mass market aimed at cassualsand familiar thmepark gameplay.
No doub in my mind pvp will be alot similair to those other themeparks with ezmode no risk pvp.
My first elderscroll i bought around 2000 daggerfall sinds then and specially after morrowind i became a huge fan of bethesda and TES and stil playing Skyrim after 300+ hours with 20k+ mods to choose from and now legendary mode.
Soon you have TES the original solo game series and you have TESO that only share part of name and some gamelore, but 2 totally different games.
It prolly will implement more featers from other games then original TES so it can be some kind version from DAOC implemented but not realy any ressambling with orignal TES game, Thats why im not realy interested in this themepark mmo for mass market aimed at cassualsand familiar thmepark gameplay.
No doub in my mind pvp will be alot similair to those other themeparks with ezmode no risk pvp.
My first elderscroll i bought around 2000 daggerfall sinds then and specially after morrowind i became a huge fan of bethesda and TES and stil playing Skyrim after 300+ hours with 20k+ mods to choose from and now legendary mode.
TESO i leave to themepark generation.
Said by a charr in the biggest themepark ever gw2 where all is so similar that you dont have even quest text
Anybody play a TES game with the guide of a main story findind a lot of dungeons and secondary quest and quest chains in the procces that inmerse you in different task you must deal with a realistic movements and mouse-based combat and list of spells to support you, aiming to your target, and being rewarded with new weapons armor and other object, with a realistic crafting that can make almost any weapon and armor/object, and surrounded of an alive world where npc has his own life and problems you can choose to steal things, be a bad guy or be a pure hero, or any other role of it, thanks to a skill trees based progression... Exactly what TESO is, any other things are minor things that dont change in a big way the experience.
I would like you to ask in how many Elder Scrolls games you were put into a faction when you chose a race?
How many Elder Scrolls games assumed that just because you are race X you have to side with faction Y?
You brought up Skyrim, and while it is true that your options regarding the war story line are rather limited, at least you have 3, regardless of your race choice:
Stormcloaks, Imperials, No Participation in war
And that's how it should be happening. You choose who you want to support. Just because you pick Nord does not mean you need to be a Stormcloak.
The way it is now in ESO is as if in Skyrim you would create your character, choose your race and from there on the game would automatically assume you were allied with one of the two warring factions. You can not opt out. And you will be attacked by the opposing faction just because you are race X.
I have argued in this thread regarding reasons why the way TESO was being developed initially with faction lock made sense (relating to real life history, current war situations [The current Korean peninsula climate for instance] etc), I even posted in another thread of similar popularity a means to an end in removing the factional boundaries (invisible walls) by allowing for political and espionage questing: one thing I did not expect to see happen however was ZoS making a concession in allowing for total world exploration within your own faction, albeit at level 50. When I did read that this was indeed happening I was honestly, rather pissed.
The following is an excerpt from another forum thread "Will the real ESO please stand-up?", written by myself and posted here so some people can understand why I have been so uncharacteristically silent from this debate.
"It wasn't the fact that there were people on this forum claiming a David vs. Goliath victory over the Devs/ZoS (although, Caliburn101, Sapphen- at one stage I believed this was the cause of my frustration, I took time away from this subject to avoid any emotionally charged, inflammatory remarks, as I know you both prefer proper discourse).
It wasn't the fact that I foresaw the opportunity for ZoS to 'pin the blame' on the community at large, stating They 'gave Us what we wanted' on any loss of momentum in delivering a final product, or if in giving a concession to ease the fans ruined aspects of lore or gameplay, ie: "You wanted to be able to travel to that faction, now you're complaining that it's ruining immersion, it's YOUR fault".
No, in the end, the thing that annoyed me most about this sudden abrupt change to the design of the game, in allowing people to cross borders and now potentially being able to form cross faction groups, is that when I read up on this game several months ago; NONE OF THAT was the established design of the game. There was no concession, there was no cross faction grouping, this has all come so suddenly that it's conflicting with what I was excited for..
I actually got excited at the prospect of being in a faction at war. I didn't even care for the PvP element, I'm a PvE'r at heart, and I've never played DAoC-- I was genuinely looking forward to the way they portrayed a world embroiled in mass conflict, the way that your race would interact with oppossing races (espionage, internment camps, etc), the way that your race played politics within it's own faction to vie for outright faction control. That potential for political intrigue piqued my curiosity and had me semi-hooked at a glance. Now when I look at the game, I have to remind myself to forget that this was an element to begin with.
I'm all for studios making a design decision to allow for form to follow function: but when it's done at the 11th hour as a form of appeasement to the loyalists, I can't help but reach for the stress ball hoping, that the implementation is as well thought out as the decision to listen to the fans."
Personally, I think ZoS has to rework their homepage to correct any conflicting lore and gameplay information that is on there, add an addendum to any articles that cannot be re-worked clarifying the changes and why they have been made, finally and this is the most important point in consideration, make a guarantee that this decision although potentially spurred on by the loyalist fans of the TES IP, will still be their responsibility to own upto, if the gameplay they deliver is subpar. They made a decision to concede elements of gameplay and make the changes. The onus should remain on Them to ensure it's delivered to the standard we expect, that We do not become a scapegoat for mediocrity. I think everyone should agree on that.
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
My point stands - they didn't anticipate the reaction to fundamental changes - and they clearly think they overstepped the mark or they would have ignored the criticism and kept the game as was.
They didn't just put ES in the title - they built the world the same, they invoked lore, they took ES lock, stock and barrel and I would bet real money some of them are reviewing early design decisions with a sigh.
That said - yes - making it an MMO was always going to tread on some toes - but they do not appear to have thought holistically about 'what makes TES great' and 'what makes DaOC great' and then sensitively compromise.
They had a hack at it and didn't get it right. Now they have had another and it would appear much improved - as appearances go.
The point being - you cannot use a name and a game history to sell a game and then make deep changes with no definitive requirement. Sure, put in raids and mass factionalised PvP - these are usual MMO elements. But taking out fundamental IP elements when it was't necessary for factional PvP - that was ill advised.
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
My point stands - they didn't anticipate the reaction to fundamental changes - and they clearly think they overstepped the mark or they would have ignored the criticism and kept the game as was.
They didn't just put ES in the title - they built the world the same, they invoked lore, they took ES lock, stock and barrel and I would bet real money some of them are reviewing early design decisions with a sigh.
That said - yes - making it an MMO was always going to tread on some toes - but they do not appear to have thought holistically about 'what makes TES great' and 'what makes DaOC great' and then sensitively compromise.
They had a hack at it and didn't get it right. Now they have had another and it would appear much improved - as appearances go.
The point being - you cannot use a name and a game history to sell a game and then make deep changes with no definitive requirement. Sure, put in raids and mass factionalised PvP - these are usual MMO elements. But taking out fundamental IP elements when it was't necessary for factional PvP - that was ill advised.
They made a change that didnt impact the core design and added about 400hrs of elder game. Was a good move on their part. As for anticipating the reaction lol. They did and thats why they said from the start this is not TES 7 its a MMO. As for the size of the reaction, its not that big lol. It has a huge following and a few upset MMO fans because its not the core model they would have picked is no big deal. Why? Because there are lots of fans of the DAoC model that will play and there is lots of TES fans that will play no matter what model they pick. Here @ MMOrpg.com we are the few and the hard core MMOers. We make up a small % of who buys the game and the mojority will play it as long as its a good game. Keep crying its still the same game it was 6 months ago and the same game it will be at launch.
EDIT: (Reply to whats in red) Yes you can and thats what makes video games awesome. Warcraft changed to become WoW. Mario stopped fixing pipes and went to save his girlfriend Peach in a 2D scroller and now is even bigger in 3D. EQ1 to EQ2 are very different games but both do very well and over the years have made a real name for MMOs and EQnext will be a new direction for that game again. Sorry your flat out wrong!!!!
You hope they're being intentionally deceptive so that they can capitalize on exploiting a specific type of gamer up front, and then change everything after they've gotten into our wallets? Why would you hope that? At that point, wouldn't you be concerned that the developer could no longer be trusted?
I'm impling that once the game gets going, most players will come to the realization that 'faction pride' is not affected by race locks in this game. More and more players will begin to desire the freedom in other Elder Scrolls games and Zenimax will follow suit. This entire arguement will be dust to the wind in faded memories.
If you're the type of player that feels the ENTIRE GAME WILL BE RUINED if they unlock factions then the developers did not exploit you, you exploited yourself. What you need to ask yourself is this; if I am correct and they remove faction locks, do you have a right to be disgruntaled or feel cheated? How would you express your concerns with the community and developers?
As long as the maps stay locked and the factions dont mix, I dont care what they do with the races. As long as it does not break immersion with the quests and story.Last thing I want to see is a darkelf doing a quest for highelves killing darkelves. I personally think what SWToR did with races was awesome. Let people play more races per faction but was still not everyone that had all the races. So seeing a Sith pure blood Jedi was rare.
That's the funny thing though. For you it is immersion breaking if you see someone of a certainr ace kill other members of that race. For me it is immersion breaking if I can't see that or do it myself. Because, last time I checked, Elder Scrolls was about choice and freedom to do exactly those things you just mentioned.
if I am a dark elf, who says I have to like my own kin and never draw a weapon against them? That's like saying in Skyrim, when you pick a Nord, you should never ever kill any other Nord. Again, this might work in any other setting that has a good explanation for this, but it really is not Elder Scrolls.
Now it seems that NPCs won't care for your choice of race anyway and just give out quests to whoever walks by. Great, I say, then there should not be any issue with having the PvE world open fromt he start and featuring 3 starting zones to choose from. Let the 3 Alliances/Factions be a political thing that players can choose who they would like to follow. Won't change anything about their AvA concept.
With the way they set up their mega server and balance campaigns it does not matter if one race is hugely more popular than another one. The same would be true if you could freely choose one of the 3 alliances. Nothing would change about their PvP mechanics. The only thing that changes is that the game would feel a lot more like ES if they get rid of the silly race lock and have the PvE world open to everyone.
So in your paranoia you justify kill greybeards and then get help from them to kill alduin just because you were bored, and that not break your inmersion, pass me that weed is very good man.
Thats called a chaotic neutral character many games and movies have those types of characters how is it immersion breaking? Those types of characters are usually freelancer types. Han Solo, Jack Sparrow. And you got characters like Drizzt Do'urden who against the ways of his own race. lol real life must be a huge game breaker for you since there are humans killing eachother all the time.
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
My point stands - they didn't anticipate the reaction to fundamental changes - and they clearly think they overstepped the mark or they would have ignored the criticism and kept the game as was.
They didn't just put ES in the title - they built the world the same, they invoked lore, they took ES lock, stock and barrel and I would bet real money some of them are reviewing early design decisions with a sigh.
That said - yes - making it an MMO was always going to tread on some toes - but they do not appear to have thought holistically about 'what makes TES great' and 'what makes DaOC great' and then sensitively compromise.
They had a hack at it and didn't get it right. Now they have had another and it would appear much improved - as appearances go.
The point being - you cannot use a name and a game history to sell a game and then make deep changes with no definitive requirement. Sure, put in raids and mass factionalised PvP - these are usual MMO elements. But taking out fundamental IP elements when it was't necessary for factional PvP - that was ill advised.
They made a change that didnt impact the core design and added about 400hrs of elder game. Was a good move on their part. As for anticipating the reaction lol. They did and thats why they said from the start this is not TES 7 its a MMO. As for the size of the reaction, its not that big lol. It has a huge following and a few upset MMO fans because its not the core model they would have picked is no big deal. Why? Because there are lots of fans of the DAoC model that will play and there is lots of TES fans that will play no matter what model they pick. Here @ MMOrpg.com we are the few and the hard core MMOers. We make up a small % of who buys the game and the mojority will play it as long as its a good game. Keep crying its still the same game it was 6 months ago and the same game it will be at launch.
EDIT: (Reply to whats in red) Yes you can and thats what makes video games awesome. Warcraft changed to become WoW. Mario stopped fixing pipes and went to save his girlfriend Peach in a 2D scroller and now is even bigger in 3D. EQ1 to EQ2 are very different games but both do very well and over the years have made a real name for MMOs and EQnext will be a new direction for that game again. Sorry your flat out wrong!!!!
OK I'm answering the last red bit;
Of course you can make changes - but they didn't do it sympathetically. The Mario games fanbase didn't hanker for years for a multiplayer version of the game - so when a new Maerio game came out with a different game style it was fine - no hopes or expectation broken.
However, TES fans have been waiting for someone to make an MMO or multiplayer version for a long time. The fact is (as is now moot - they are doing it...) that they put too much bias on mass PvP and not enough consideration for what makes TES games GREAT.
You are flat out wrong if you think a company seeking to make money and gain reputation from a game aimed squarely at an existing fanbase doesn't take full account of the things that they love about that IP.
It would seem they now agree having seen the widespread surprise and dissapointment expressed on every forum from here to the four corners of the internet about these very issues.
Or perhaps the whole TES playerbase is wrong huh Nan?
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
My point stands - they didn't anticipate the reaction to fundamental changes - and they clearly think they overstepped the mark or they would have ignored the criticism and kept the game as was.
They didn't just put ES in the title - they built the world the same, they invoked lore, they took ES lock, stock and barrel and I would bet real money some of them are reviewing early design decisions with a sigh.
That said - yes - making it an MMO was always going to tread on some toes - but they do not appear to have thought holistically about 'what makes TES great' and 'what makes DaOC great' and then sensitively compromise.
They had a hack at it and didn't get it right. Now they have had another and it would appear much improved - as appearances go.
The point being - you cannot use a name and a game history to sell a game and then make deep changes with no definitive requirement. Sure, put in raids and mass factionalised PvP - these are usual MMO elements. But taking out fundamental IP elements when it was't necessary for factional PvP - that was ill advised.
They made a change that didnt impact the core design and added about 400hrs of elder game. Was a good move on their part. As for anticipating the reaction lol. They did and thats why they said from the start this is not TES 7 its a MMO. As for the size of the reaction, its not that big lol. It has a huge following and a few upset MMO fans because its not the core model they would have picked is no big deal. Why? Because there are lots of fans of the DAoC model that will play and there is lots of TES fans that will play no matter what model they pick. Here @ MMOrpg.com we are the few and the hard core MMOers. We make up a small % of who buys the game and the mojority will play it as long as its a good game. Keep crying its still the same game it was 6 months ago and the same game it will be at launch.
EDIT: (Reply to whats in red) Yes you can and thats what makes video games awesome. Warcraft changed to become WoW. Mario stopped fixing pipes and went to save his girlfriend Peach in a 2D scroller and now is even bigger in 3D. EQ1 to EQ2 are very different games but both do very well and over the years have made a real name for MMOs and EQnext will be a new direction for that game again. Sorry your flat out wrong!!!!
OK I'm answering the last red bit;
Of course you can make changes - but they didn't do it sympathetically. The Mario games fanbase didn't hanker for years for a multiplayer version of the game - so when a new Maerio game came out with a different game style it was fine - no hopes or expectation broken.
However, TES fans have been waiting for someone to make an MMO or multiplayer version for a long time. The fact is (as is now moot - they are doing it...) that they put too much bias on mass PvP and not enough consideration for what makes TES games GREAT.
You are flat out wrong if you think a company seeking to make money and gain reputation from a game aimed squarely at an existing fanbase doesn't take full account of the things that they love about that IP.
It would seem they now agree having seen the widespread surprise and dissapointment expressed on every forum from here to the four corners of the internet about these very issues.
Or perhaps the whole TES playerbase is wrong huh Nan?
I would agree with you if you knew entire TES playerbase. Which is not even possible.
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
My point stands - they didn't anticipate the reaction to fundamental changes - and they clearly think they overstepped the mark or they would have ignored the criticism and kept the game as was.
They didn't just put ES in the title - they built the world the same, they invoked lore, they took ES lock, stock and barrel and I would bet real money some of them are reviewing early design decisions with a sigh.
That said - yes - making it an MMO was always going to tread on some toes - but they do not appear to have thought holistically about 'what makes TES great' and 'what makes DaOC great' and then sensitively compromise.
They had a hack at it and didn't get it right. Now they have had another and it would appear much improved - as appearances go.
The point being - you cannot use a name and a game history to sell a game and then make deep changes with no definitive requirement. Sure, put in raids and mass factionalised PvP - these are usual MMO elements. But taking out fundamental IP elements when it was't necessary for factional PvP - that was ill advised.
They made a change that didnt impact the core design and added about 400hrs of elder game. Was a good move on their part. As for anticipating the reaction lol. They did and thats why they said from the start this is not TES 7 its a MMO. As for the size of the reaction, its not that big lol. It has a huge following and a few upset MMO fans because its not the core model they would have picked is no big deal. Why? Because there are lots of fans of the DAoC model that will play and there is lots of TES fans that will play no matter what model they pick. Here @ MMOrpg.com we are the few and the hard core MMOers. We make up a small % of who buys the game and the mojority will play it as long as its a good game. Keep crying its still the same game it was 6 months ago and the same game it will be at launch.
EDIT: (Reply to whats in red) Yes you can and thats what makes video games awesome. Warcraft changed to become WoW. Mario stopped fixing pipes and went to save his girlfriend Peach in a 2D scroller and now is even bigger in 3D. EQ1 to EQ2 are very different games but both do very well and over the years have made a real name for MMOs and EQnext will be a new direction for that game again. Sorry your flat out wrong!!!!
OK I'm answering the last red bit;
Of course you can make changes - but they didn't do it sympathetically. The Mario games fanbase didn't hanker for years for a multiplayer version of the game - so when a new Maerio game came out with a different game style it was fine - no hopes or expectation broken.
However, TES fans have been waiting for someone to make an MMO or multiplayer version for a long time. The fact is (as is now moot - they are doing it...) that they put too much bias on mass PvP and not enough consideration for what makes TES games GREAT.
You are flat out wrong if you think a company seeking to make money and gain reputation from a game aimed squarely at an existing fanbase doesn't take full account of the things that they love about that IP.
It would seem they now agree having seen the widespread surprise and dissapointment expressed on every forum from here to the four corners of the internet about these very issues.
Or perhaps the whole TES playerbase is wrong huh Nan?
I am also from the TES fan base. I have been playing TES going back to when they were 8 bit games. Of all single player RPGs TES franchises is my fav. Stop acting like you talk for the whole player fan base. Thats where you fail again!!!! More of the same over and over often is the death of franchises often is because of a lack of inavation. Grow or die. I am a fan and love the direction of this game. Get over your self as you and your kind are not as big a mob as you think you are. We fans on MMOrpg.com start thinking we are the majority opinion. We are just 2 mill members here of many millions. WoW alone has 10 million subs. 2 Million over all MMOs is nothing. Matter of fact my bet most members here have become the MMO hoppers.
I refuse to act like I am speaking for the majority but you make a little poll on a sub section of the MMO community and you think you have some great insight. You dont. Fact, some will like the model and some will not. Lots of TES fans will play this never with a care of what model it is as they will be playing their first MMO or are MMO fans as well and just wont care. And then there is the rabbid fans this thread supports. They will play the game no matter what but in the end rage quit because it dose not fit the LITTLE BOX they think it should. Even if its a good game they will most likely quit. Seen it happen with many a MMO that picks a great IP. When you pick a great IP you cant make all of them happy you just hope to get a good chunk of them.
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
My point stands - they didn't anticipate the reaction to fundamental changes - and they clearly think they overstepped the mark or they would have ignored the criticism and kept the game as was.
They didn't just put ES in the title - they built the world the same, they invoked lore, they took ES lock, stock and barrel and I would bet real money some of them are reviewing early design decisions with a sigh.
That said - yes - making it an MMO was always going to tread on some toes - but they do not appear to have thought holistically about 'what makes TES great' and 'what makes DaOC great' and then sensitively compromise.
They had a hack at it and didn't get it right. Now they have had another and it would appear much improved - as appearances go.
The point being - you cannot use a name and a game history to sell a game and then make deep changes with no definitive requirement. Sure, put in raids and mass factionalised PvP - these are usual MMO elements. But taking out fundamental IP elements when it was't necessary for factional PvP - that was ill advised.
They made a change that didnt impact the core design and added about 400hrs of elder game. Was a good move on their part. As for anticipating the reaction lol. They did and thats why they said from the start this is not TES 7 its a MMO. As for the size of the reaction, its not that big lol. It has a huge following and a few upset MMO fans because its not the core model they would have picked is no big deal. Why? Because there are lots of fans of the DAoC model that will play and there is lots of TES fans that will play no matter what model they pick. Here @ MMOrpg.com we are the few and the hard core MMOers. We make up a small % of who buys the game and the mojority will play it as long as its a good game. Keep crying its still the same game it was 6 months ago and the same game it will be at launch.
EDIT: (Reply to whats in red) Yes you can and thats what makes video games awesome. Warcraft changed to become WoW. Mario stopped fixing pipes and went to save his girlfriend Peach in a 2D scroller and now is even bigger in 3D. EQ1 to EQ2 are very different games but both do very well and over the years have made a real name for MMOs and EQnext will be a new direction for that game again. Sorry your flat out wrong!!!!
OK I'm answering the last red bit;
Of course you can make changes - but they didn't do it sympathetically. The Mario games fanbase didn't hanker for years for a multiplayer version of the game - so when a new Maerio game came out with a different game style it was fine - no hopes or expectation broken.
However, TES fans have been waiting for someone to make an MMO or multiplayer version for a long time. The fact is (as is now moot - they are doing it...) that they put too much bias on mass PvP and not enough consideration for what makes TES games GREAT.
You are flat out wrong if you think a company seeking to make money and gain reputation from a game aimed squarely at an existing fanbase doesn't take full account of the things that they love about that IP.
It would seem they now agree having seen the widespread surprise and dissapointment expressed on every forum from here to the four corners of the internet about these very issues.
Or perhaps the whole TES playerbase is wrong huh Nan?
I would agree with you if you knew entire TES playerbase. Which is not even possible.
Ah this minimus kind of argument again.
I never claimed to represent the whole player base - I can however reasonably claim that the TES playerbase like TES because of the things that make it fun. There may be a few people somewhere who play it because they hate it...
The likes of Nan think what makes TES fun can be thrown out with the dishwater without a problem.
Zenimax and every forum you care to visit where this issue comes up doesn't support this where TES fans speak up.
Find me a TES fan site where this isn't/wasn't thought to be a problem by said TES fans and I'll concede the point.
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
My point stands - they didn't anticipate the reaction to fundamental changes - and they clearly think they overstepped the mark or they would have ignored the criticism and kept the game as was.
They didn't just put ES in the title - they built the world the same, they invoked lore, they took ES lock, stock and barrel and I would bet real money some of them are reviewing early design decisions with a sigh.
That said - yes - making it an MMO was always going to tread on some toes - but they do not appear to have thought holistically about 'what makes TES great' and 'what makes DaOC great' and then sensitively compromise.
They had a hack at it and didn't get it right. Now they have had another and it would appear much improved - as appearances go.
The point being - you cannot use a name and a game history to sell a game and then make deep changes with no definitive requirement. Sure, put in raids and mass factionalised PvP - these are usual MMO elements. But taking out fundamental IP elements when it was't necessary for factional PvP - that was ill advised.
They made a change that didnt impact the core design and added about 400hrs of elder game. Was a good move on their part. As for anticipating the reaction lol. They did and thats why they said from the start this is not TES 7 its a MMO. As for the size of the reaction, its not that big lol. It has a huge following and a few upset MMO fans because its not the core model they would have picked is no big deal. Why? Because there are lots of fans of the DAoC model that will play and there is lots of TES fans that will play no matter what model they pick. Here @ MMOrpg.com we are the few and the hard core MMOers. We make up a small % of who buys the game and the mojority will play it as long as its a good game. Keep crying its still the same game it was 6 months ago and the same game it will be at launch.
EDIT: (Reply to whats in red) Yes you can and thats what makes video games awesome. Warcraft changed to become WoW. Mario stopped fixing pipes and went to save his girlfriend Peach in a 2D scroller and now is even bigger in 3D. EQ1 to EQ2 are very different games but both do very well and over the years have made a real name for MMOs and EQnext will be a new direction for that game again. Sorry your flat out wrong!!!!
OK I'm answering the last red bit;
Of course you can make changes - but they didn't do it sympathetically. The Mario games fanbase didn't hanker for years for a multiplayer version of the game - so when a new Maerio game came out with a different game style it was fine - no hopes or expectation broken.
However, TES fans have been waiting for someone to make an MMO or multiplayer version for a long time. The fact is (as is now moot - they are doing it...) that they put too much bias on mass PvP and not enough consideration for what makes TES games GREAT.
You are flat out wrong if you think a company seeking to make money and gain reputation from a game aimed squarely at an existing fanbase doesn't take full account of the things that they love about that IP.
It would seem they now agree having seen the widespread surprise and dissapointment expressed on every forum from here to the four corners of the internet about these very issues.
Or perhaps the whole TES playerbase is wrong huh Nan?
I am also from the TES fan base. I have been playing TES going back to when they were 8 bit games. Of all single player RPGs TES franchises is my fav. Stop acting like you talk for the whole player fan base. Thats where you fail again!!!! More of the same over and over often is the death of franchises often is because of a lack of inavation. Grow or die. I am a fan and love the direction of this game. Get over your self as you and your kind are not as big a mob as you think you are. We fans on MMOrpg.com start thinking we are the majority opinion. We are just 2 mill members here of many millions. WoW alone has 10 million subs. 2 Million over all MMOs is nothing. Matter of fact my bet most members here have become the MMO hoppers.
I refuse to act like I am speaking for the majority but you make a little poll on a sub section of the MMO community and you think you have some great insight. You dont. Fact, some will like the model and some will not. Lots of TES fans will play this never with a care of what model it is as they will be playing their first MMO or are MMO fans as well and just wont care. And then there is the rabbid fans this thread supports. They will play the game no matter what but in the end rage quit because it dose not fit the LITTLE BOX they think it should. Even if its a good game they will most likely quit. Seen it happen with many a MMO that picks a great IP. When you pick a great IP you cant make all of them happy you just hope to get a good chunk of them.
'rabbid', 'ragequite', etc.
You criticise me for bias I admit to, and support with my opinions. Then you claim you don't have any yourself and 'scream' your disdain for the very people you are addressing with these sorts of references.
Some might call that hypocrisy.
Why don't you do a poll stating your opinions and see what percentages you get Nan?
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
My point stands - they didn't anticipate the reaction to fundamental changes - and they clearly think they overstepped the mark or they would have ignored the criticism and kept the game as was.
They didn't just put ES in the title - they built the world the same, they invoked lore, they took ES lock, stock and barrel and I would bet real money some of them are reviewing early design decisions with a sigh.
That said - yes - making it an MMO was always going to tread on some toes - but they do not appear to have thought holistically about 'what makes TES great' and 'what makes DaOC great' and then sensitively compromise.
They had a hack at it and didn't get it right. Now they have had another and it would appear much improved - as appearances go.
The point being - you cannot use a name and a game history to sell a game and then make deep changes with no definitive requirement. Sure, put in raids and mass factionalised PvP - these are usual MMO elements. But taking out fundamental IP elements when it was't necessary for factional PvP - that was ill advised.
They made a change that didnt impact the core design and added about 400hrs of elder game. Was a good move on their part. As for anticipating the reaction lol. They did and thats why they said from the start this is not TES 7 its a MMO. As for the size of the reaction, its not that big lol. It has a huge following and a few upset MMO fans because its not the core model they would have picked is no big deal. Why? Because there are lots of fans of the DAoC model that will play and there is lots of TES fans that will play no matter what model they pick. Here @ MMOrpg.com we are the few and the hard core MMOers. We make up a small % of who buys the game and the mojority will play it as long as its a good game. Keep crying its still the same game it was 6 months ago and the same game it will be at launch.
EDIT: (Reply to whats in red) Yes you can and thats what makes video games awesome. Warcraft changed to become WoW. Mario stopped fixing pipes and went to save his girlfriend Peach in a 2D scroller and now is even bigger in 3D. EQ1 to EQ2 are very different games but both do very well and over the years have made a real name for MMOs and EQnext will be a new direction for that game again. Sorry your flat out wrong!!!!
OK I'm answering the last red bit;
Of course you can make changes - but they didn't do it sympathetically. The Mario games fanbase didn't hanker for years for a multiplayer version of the game - so when a new Maerio game came out with a different game style it was fine - no hopes or expectation broken.
However, TES fans have been waiting for someone to make an MMO or multiplayer version for a long time. The fact is (as is now moot - they are doing it...) that they put too much bias on mass PvP and not enough consideration for what makes TES games GREAT.
You are flat out wrong if you think a company seeking to make money and gain reputation from a game aimed squarely at an existing fanbase doesn't take full account of the things that they love about that IP.
It would seem they now agree having seen the widespread surprise and dissapointment expressed on every forum from here to the four corners of the internet about these very issues.
Or perhaps the whole TES playerbase is wrong huh Nan?
I am also from the TES fan base. I have been playing TES going back to when they were 8 bit games. Of all single player RPGs TES franchises is my fav. Stop acting like you talk for the whole player fan base. Thats where you fail again!!!! More of the same over and over often is the death of franchises often is because of a lack of inavation. Grow or die. I am a fan and love the direction of this game. Get over your self as you and your kind are not as big a mob as you think you are. We fans on MMOrpg.com start thinking we are the majority opinion. We are just 2 mill members here of many millions. WoW alone has 10 million subs. 2 Million over all MMOs is nothing. Matter of fact my bet most members here have become the MMO hoppers.
I refuse to act like I am speaking for the majority but you make a little poll on a sub section of the MMO community and you think you have some great insight. You dont. Fact, some will like the model and some will not. Lots of TES fans will play this never with a care of what model it is as they will be playing their first MMO or are MMO fans as well and just wont care. And then there is the rabbid fans this thread supports. They will play the game no matter what but in the end rage quit because it dose not fit the LITTLE BOX they think it should. Even if its a good game they will most likely quit. Seen it happen with many a MMO that picks a great IP. When you pick a great IP you cant make all of them happy you just hope to get a good chunk of them.
'rabbid', 'ragequite', etc.
You criticise me for bias I admit to, and support with my opinions. Then you claim you don't have any yourself and 'scream' your disdain for the very people you are addressing with these sorts of references.
Some might call that hypocrisy.
Why don't you do a poll stating your opinions and see what percentages you get Nan?
If he states that creating polls are pointless, why would you ask him to make one?
I never claimed to represent the whole player base - I can however reasonably claim that the TES playerbase like TES because of the things that make it fun. There may be a few people somewhere who play it because they hate it...
The likes of Nan think what makes TES fun can be thrown out with the dishwater without a problem.
Zenimax and every forum you care to visit where this issue comes up doesn't support this where TES fans speak up.
Find me a TES fan site where this isn't/wasn't thought to be a problem by said TES fans and I'll concede the point.
It is not minimus at all. When you begin to project and speak on behalf of entire player base (no matter how reasonable you think your claims is) it is just down hill from there.
It is very old tactic of argument by the way where people bring in these unseen and unheard 'playerbase' to give more volume to their argument. Old pressure tactics.
If i vist every single forum about TES i am sure i can find a lot of topics / posts which state otherwise doesn't mean i can 'reasonably' represent them all or use it as a basis of my argument.
You are not the first one to claim that you know what others want just on the basis of what you read on the forums.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
My point stands - they didn't anticipate the reaction to fundamental changes - and they clearly think they overstepped the mark or they would have ignored the criticism and kept the game as was.
They didn't just put ES in the title - they built the world the same, they invoked lore, they took ES lock, stock and barrel and I would bet real money some of them are reviewing early design decisions with a sigh.
That said - yes - making it an MMO was always going to tread on some toes - but they do not appear to have thought holistically about 'what makes TES great' and 'what makes DaOC great' and then sensitively compromise.
They had a hack at it and didn't get it right. Now they have had another and it would appear much improved - as appearances go.
The point being - you cannot use a name and a game history to sell a game and then make deep changes with no definitive requirement. Sure, put in raids and mass factionalised PvP - these are usual MMO elements. But taking out fundamental IP elements when it was't necessary for factional PvP - that was ill advised.
They made a change that didnt impact the core design and added about 400hrs of elder game. Was a good move on their part. As for anticipating the reaction lol. They did and thats why they said from the start this is not TES 7 its a MMO. As for the size of the reaction, its not that big lol. It has a huge following and a few upset MMO fans because its not the core model they would have picked is no big deal. Why? Because there are lots of fans of the DAoC model that will play and there is lots of TES fans that will play no matter what model they pick. Here @ MMOrpg.com we are the few and the hard core MMOers. We make up a small % of who buys the game and the mojority will play it as long as its a good game. Keep crying its still the same game it was 6 months ago and the same game it will be at launch.
EDIT: (Reply to whats in red) Yes you can and thats what makes video games awesome. Warcraft changed to become WoW. Mario stopped fixing pipes and went to save his girlfriend Peach in a 2D scroller and now is even bigger in 3D. EQ1 to EQ2 are very different games but both do very well and over the years have made a real name for MMOs and EQnext will be a new direction for that game again. Sorry your flat out wrong!!!!
OK I'm answering the last red bit;
Of course you can make changes - but they didn't do it sympathetically. The Mario games fanbase didn't hanker for years for a multiplayer version of the game - so when a new Maerio game came out with a different game style it was fine - no hopes or expectation broken.
However, TES fans have been waiting for someone to make an MMO or multiplayer version for a long time. The fact is (as is now moot - they are doing it...) that they put too much bias on mass PvP and not enough consideration for what makes TES games GREAT.
You are flat out wrong if you think a company seeking to make money and gain reputation from a game aimed squarely at an existing fanbase doesn't take full account of the things that they love about that IP.
It would seem they now agree having seen the widespread surprise and dissapointment expressed on every forum from here to the four corners of the internet about these very issues.
Or perhaps the whole TES playerbase is wrong huh Nan?
I am also from the TES fan base. I have been playing TES going back to when they were 8 bit games. Of all single player RPGs TES franchises is my fav. Stop acting like you talk for the whole player fan base. Thats where you fail again!!!! More of the same over and over often is the death of franchises often is because of a lack of inavation. Grow or die. I am a fan and love the direction of this game. Get over your self as you and your kind are not as big a mob as you think you are. We fans on MMOrpg.com start thinking we are the majority opinion. We are just 2 mill members here of many millions. WoW alone has 10 million subs. 2 Million over all MMOs is nothing. Matter of fact my bet most members here have become the MMO hoppers.
I refuse to act like I am speaking for the majority but you make a little poll on a sub section of the MMO community and you think you have some great insight. You dont. Fact, some will like the model and some will not. Lots of TES fans will play this never with a care of what model it is as they will be playing their first MMO or are MMO fans as well and just wont care. And then there is the rabbid fans this thread supports. They will play the game no matter what but in the end rage quit because it dose not fit the LITTLE BOX they think it should. Even if its a good game they will most likely quit. Seen it happen with many a MMO that picks a great IP. When you pick a great IP you cant make all of them happy you just hope to get a good chunk of them.
'rabbid', 'ragequite', etc.
You criticise me for bias I admit to, and support with my opinions. Then you claim you don't have any yourself and 'scream' your disdain for the very people you are addressing with these sorts of references.
Some might call that hypocrisy.
Why don't you do a poll stating your opinions and see what percentages you get Nan?
If he states that creating polls are pointless, why would you ask him to make one?
Polls at best are fun not fact finding. I would not make a poll on this topic as its scope of players it should cover could never be reached. Like my 5 friends who are TES fans but dont like or never play MMOs but will be playing ESO. They would never come to this forum as TES fans who are not MMO fans. Same with any fan URL thats about ESO. We will get a cross section of MMO fans from everywhere to play ESO but with the IP we will also get a lot of new MMOers as well. You gona go knock on their doors?
IMO they picked DAoC as the model to grab at the large number of MMO fans who have been yelling forever "Where is a new MMO we can goto with 3 faction war?" and it also gives new MMOers who like TES a place to play without being attacked. As a TES fan I think its the perfect fit of MMO fans and TES fans in one package. You disagree and its your right to but dont think your poll is the holly grail and true answer to how people feel.
I never claimed to represent the whole player base - I can however reasonably claim that the TES playerbase like TES because of the things that make it fun. There may be a few people somewhere who play it because they hate it...
The likes of Nan think what makes TES fun can be thrown out with the dishwater without a problem.
Zenimax and every forum you care to visit where this issue comes up doesn't support this where TES fans speak up.
Find me a TES fan site where this isn't/wasn't thought to be a problem by said TES fans and I'll concede the point.
It is not minimus at all. When you begin to project and speak on behalf of entire player base (no matter how reasonable you think your claims is) it is just down hill from there.
It is very old tactic of argument by the way where people bring in these unseen and unheard 'playerbase' to give more volume to their argument. Old pressure tactics.
If i vist every single forum about TES i am sure i can find a lot of topics / posts which state otherwise doesn't mean i can 'reasonably' represent them all or use it as a basis of my argument.
You are not the first one to claim that you know what others want just on the basis of what you read on the forums
I made no such claim - stop putting words in my mouth.
If you need it qualified so you can understand the point - then just put 'concerned' before playerbase.
If you want to base an entire argument on a single instance of symantics then trust me - you are going no-where and will be hung by your own petard...
Zenimax changed the game because of the TES fans - not as they would have done for a minority of TES fans, or a vocal few - but because they felt they had misstepped.
They certainly didn't do it because of me - the idea is laughable.
Just like it's laughable that a few rabid fans could have got them to make this fundamental change towards what was being asked for.
If TES fans hadn't been asking for it - it wouldn't have happened.
Of course that's a much more difficult position to criticise when compared to a quickly typed and imperfectly constructed reference.
If that's the only wiggle room available to you - by all means thrash it to death. It won't make any difference to the changes being made.
If he states that creating polls are pointless, why would you ask him to make one?
Nan's entire approach from the get-go has been to deconstruct and critique.
I haven't read any significant constructive suggestion from him during this whole debate - just 'it cannot be done' (proven wrong), it 'shouldn't be done' (unsupported with a cohesive argument as to why) and 'it will ruin the 3-way factional pvp' (refuted by a number of posters - all of their reasoned arguments then unaddressed).
The argument Nan uses is in my opinion similar to sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting 'la la la'.
I would LOVE him to prove me wrong by coming up with a constructive contribution, defining his point of view and the testing it in the court of online opinion.
But he doesn't - and as one person on these forums makes hillariously clear in his signature quote - can contradict himself mid-stride.
It's ever so easy to say 'I don't believe in polls; I don't represent anyone; I stand for nothing - but I'm right anyway' - and then cyberstalk any argument to the contrary.
Much harder to openly stand for something, lay out your stall in it's entirety and then defend your position.
I never claimed to represent the whole player base - I can however reasonably claim that the TES playerbase like TES because of the things that make it fun. There may be a few people somewhere who play it because they hate it...
The likes of Nan think what makes TES fun can be thrown out with the dishwater without a problem.
Zenimax and every forum you care to visit where this issue comes up doesn't support this where TES fans speak up.
Find me a TES fan site where this isn't/wasn't thought to be a problem by said TES fans and I'll concede the point.
It is not minimus at all. When you begin to project and speak on behalf of entire player base (no matter how reasonable you think your claims is) it is just down hill from there.
It is very old tactic of argument by the way where people bring in these unseen and unheard 'playerbase' to give more volume to their argument. Old pressure tactics.
If i vist every single forum about TES i am sure i can find a lot of topics / posts which state otherwise doesn't mean i can 'reasonably' represent them all or use it as a basis of my argument.
You are not the first one to claim that you know what others want just on the basis of what you read on the forums
I made no such claim - stop putting words in my mouth.
If you need it qualified so you can understand the point - then just put 'concerned' before playerbase.
If you want to base an entire argument on a single instance of symantics then trust me - you are going no-where and will be hung by your own petard...
Zenimax changed the game because of the TES fans - not as they would have done for a minority of TES fans, or a vocal few - but because they felt they had misstepped.
They certainly didn't do it because of me - the idea is laughable.
Just like it's laughable that a few rabid fans could have got them to make this fundamental change towards what was being asked for.
If TES fans hadn't been asking for it - it wouldn't have happened.
Of course that's a much more difficult position to criticise when compared to a quickly typed and imperfectly constructed reference.
If that's the only wiggle room available to you - by all means thrash it to death. It won't make any difference to the changes being made.
Symantics? putting words in your mouth?
Or perhaps the whole TES playerbase is wrong huh Nan?
Your words not mine.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
If he states that creating polls are pointless, why would you ask him to make one?
Nan's entire approach from the get-go has been to deconstruct and critique.
I haven't read any significant constructive suggestion from him during this whole debate - just 'it cannot be done' (proven wrong), it 'shouldn't be done' (unsupported with a cohesive argument as to why) and 'it will ruin the 3-way factional pvp' (refuted by a number of posters - all of their reasoned arguments then unaddressed).
The argument Nan uses is in my opinion similar to sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting 'la la la'.
I would LOVE him to prove me wrong by coming up with a constructive contribution, defining his point of view and the testing it in the court of online opinion.
But he doesn't - and as one person on these forums makes hillariously clear in his signature quote - can contradict himself mid-stride.
It's ever so easy to say 'I don't believe in polls; I don't represent anyone; I stand for nothing - but I'm right anyway' - and then cyberstalk any argument to the contrary.
Much harder to openly stand for something, lay out your stall in it's entirety and then defend your position.
But he doesn't do it does he...
Wrong and lies again. I started a thread on options on how to let people explore everywhere without breaking the 3 factions, look HERE. I have made suggestions on how there could be more races. I am all for change as long as it does not break the core model of the game. You on the other hand, sorry my mom taught me to say nothing at all.
It's ever so easy to say 'I don't believe in polls; I don't represent anyone; I stand for nothing - but I'm right anyway' - and then cyberstalk any argument to the contrary.
Not directly related to the topic at hand, but can you really cyberstalk an argument that you've been involved in since the beginning? Isn't that an unfair characterization of what he's doing, and are you not simply using that word in an attempt to color anything he says (past or present) in a negative way, as if he has an agenda beyond the debate?
Comments
Soon you have TES the original solo game series and you have TESO that only share part of name and some gamelore, but 2 totally different games.
It prolly will implement more featers from other games then original TES so it can be some kind version from DAOC implemented but not realy any ressambling with orignal TES game, Thats why im not realy interested in this themepark mmo for mass market aimed at cassualsand familiar thmepark gameplay.
No doub in my mind pvp will be alot similair to those other themeparks with ezmode no risk pvp.
My first elderscroll i bought around 2000 daggerfall sinds then and specially after morrowind i became a huge fan of bethesda and TES and stil playing Skyrim after 300+ hours with 20k+ mods to choose from and now legendary mode.
TESO i leave to themepark generation.
Said by a charr in the biggest themepark ever gw2 where all is so similar that you dont have even quest text
Anybody play a TES game with the guide of a main story findind a lot of dungeons and secondary quest and quest chains in the procces that inmerse you in different task you must deal with a realistic movements and mouse-based combat and list of spells to support you, aiming to your target, and being rewarded with new weapons armor and other object, with a realistic crafting that can make almost any weapon and armor/object, and surrounded of an alive world where npc has his own life and problems you can choose to steal things, be a bad guy or be a pure hero, or any other role of it, thanks to a skill trees based progression... Exactly what TESO is, any other things are minor things that dont change in a big way the experience.
@alakyen
I would like you to ask in how many Elder Scrolls games you were put into a faction when you chose a race?
How many Elder Scrolls games assumed that just because you are race X you have to side with faction Y?
You brought up Skyrim, and while it is true that your options regarding the war story line are rather limited, at least you have 3, regardless of your race choice:
Stormcloaks, Imperials, No Participation in war
And that's how it should be happening. You choose who you want to support. Just because you pick Nord does not mean you need to be a Stormcloak.
The way it is now in ESO is as if in Skyrim you would create your character, choose your race and from there on the game would automatically assume you were allied with one of the two warring factions. You can not opt out. And you will be attacked by the opposing faction just because you are race X.
And that is -imo- not ES.
I have argued in this thread regarding reasons why the way TESO was being developed initially with faction lock made sense (relating to real life history, current war situations [The current Korean peninsula climate for instance] etc), I even posted in another thread of similar popularity a means to an end in removing the factional boundaries (invisible walls) by allowing for political and espionage questing: one thing I did not expect to see happen however was ZoS making a concession in allowing for total world exploration within your own faction, albeit at level 50. When I did read that this was indeed happening I was honestly, rather pissed.
The following is an excerpt from another forum thread "Will the real ESO please stand-up?", written by myself and posted here so some people can understand why I have been so uncharacteristically silent from this debate.
"It wasn't the fact that there were people on this forum claiming a David vs. Goliath victory over the Devs/ZoS (although, Caliburn101, Sapphen- at one stage I believed this was the cause of my frustration, I took time away from this subject to avoid any emotionally charged, inflammatory remarks, as I know you both prefer proper discourse).
It wasn't the fact that I foresaw the opportunity for ZoS to 'pin the blame' on the community at large, stating They 'gave Us what we wanted' on any loss of momentum in delivering a final product, or if in giving a concession to ease the fans ruined aspects of lore or gameplay, ie: "You wanted to be able to travel to that faction, now you're complaining that it's ruining immersion, it's YOUR fault".
No, in the end, the thing that annoyed me most about this sudden abrupt change to the design of the game, in allowing people to cross borders and now potentially being able to form cross faction groups, is that when I read up on this game several months ago; NONE OF THAT was the established design of the game. There was no concession, there was no cross faction grouping, this has all come so suddenly that it's conflicting with what I was excited for..
I actually got excited at the prospect of being in a faction at war. I didn't even care for the PvP element, I'm a PvE'r at heart, and I've never played DAoC-- I was genuinely looking forward to the way they portrayed a world embroiled in mass conflict, the way that your race would interact with oppossing races (espionage, internment camps, etc), the way that your race played politics within it's own faction to vie for outright faction control. That potential for political intrigue piqued my curiosity and had me semi-hooked at a glance. Now when I look at the game, I have to remind myself to forget that this was an element to begin with.
I'm all for studios making a design decision to allow for form to follow function: but when it's done at the 11th hour as a form of appeasement to the loyalists, I can't help but reach for the stress ball hoping, that the implementation is as well thought out as the decision to listen to the fans."
Personally, I think ZoS has to rework their homepage to correct any conflicting lore and gameplay information that is on there, add an addendum to any articles that cannot be re-worked clarifying the changes and why they have been made, finally and this is the most important point in consideration, make a guarantee that this decision although potentially spurred on by the loyalist fans of the TES IP, will still be their responsibility to own upto, if the gameplay they deliver is subpar. They made a decision to concede elements of gameplay and make the changes. The onus should remain on Them to ensure it's delivered to the standard we expect, that We do not become a scapegoat for mediocrity. I think everyone should agree on that.
And that's my $0.02.
In one of their interviews they stated clearly that TESO is not a successor to TES, while it has similarities, it is clearly not a sequel to it.
Also, if we are to think about it it makes sense to make it similar to TES to draw the fans from that area and also make it similar to other popular MMORPGs that are successful to get some clients from that area.
Also, it is too soon to evaluate since there is little gamplay footage or few beta players that post about it, we have to wait and see and most important: keep your wallets closed and wait for the release, not the founder pack or pre-pre-pre-purchase and then complain that it was not what you epected
V.
It doesn't matter what THEY say - THEY put 'Elder Scrolls' in the title - THEY have to live with that - and are learning what it means aren't they?
They said that because they knew there would be fanatic TES fans who would expect ESO to be a mirror of TES with group play lol. Much like this thread proves. They were saying this is a MMO and it cant fit TES to the letter. Like any art form, when you change mediums it cant keep everything and sometimes things need to be added to make it work as well. Great you think it fit a sandbox type game not everyone thinks so best off all, the corporation that owns TES didnt think so.
My point stands - they didn't anticipate the reaction to fundamental changes - and they clearly think they overstepped the mark or they would have ignored the criticism and kept the game as was.
They didn't just put ES in the title - they built the world the same, they invoked lore, they took ES lock, stock and barrel and I would bet real money some of them are reviewing early design decisions with a sigh.
That said - yes - making it an MMO was always going to tread on some toes - but they do not appear to have thought holistically about 'what makes TES great' and 'what makes DaOC great' and then sensitively compromise.
They had a hack at it and didn't get it right. Now they have had another and it would appear much improved - as appearances go.
The point being - you cannot use a name and a game history to sell a game and then make deep changes with no definitive requirement. Sure, put in raids and mass factionalised PvP - these are usual MMO elements. But taking out fundamental IP elements when it was't necessary for factional PvP - that was ill advised.
They made a change that didnt impact the core design and added about 400hrs of elder game. Was a good move on their part. As for anticipating the reaction lol. They did and thats why they said from the start this is not TES 7 its a MMO. As for the size of the reaction, its not that big lol. It has a huge following and a few upset MMO fans because its not the core model they would have picked is no big deal. Why? Because there are lots of fans of the DAoC model that will play and there is lots of TES fans that will play no matter what model they pick. Here @ MMOrpg.com we are the few and the hard core MMOers. We make up a small % of who buys the game and the mojority will play it as long as its a good game. Keep crying its still the same game it was 6 months ago and the same game it will be at launch.
EDIT: (Reply to whats in red) Yes you can and thats what makes video games awesome. Warcraft changed to become WoW. Mario stopped fixing pipes and went to save his girlfriend Peach in a 2D scroller and now is even bigger in 3D. EQ1 to EQ2 are very different games but both do very well and over the years have made a real name for MMOs and EQnext will be a new direction for that game again. Sorry your flat out wrong!!!!
Thats called a chaotic neutral character many games and movies have those types of characters how is it immersion breaking? Those types of characters are usually freelancer types. Han Solo, Jack Sparrow. And you got characters like Drizzt Do'urden who against the ways of his own race. lol real life must be a huge game breaker for you since there are humans killing eachother all the time.
OK I'm answering the last red bit;
Of course you can make changes - but they didn't do it sympathetically. The Mario games fanbase didn't hanker for years for a multiplayer version of the game - so when a new Maerio game came out with a different game style it was fine - no hopes or expectation broken.
However, TES fans have been waiting for someone to make an MMO or multiplayer version for a long time. The fact is (as is now moot - they are doing it...) that they put too much bias on mass PvP and not enough consideration for what makes TES games GREAT.
You are flat out wrong if you think a company seeking to make money and gain reputation from a game aimed squarely at an existing fanbase doesn't take full account of the things that they love about that IP.
It would seem they now agree having seen the widespread surprise and dissapointment expressed on every forum from here to the four corners of the internet about these very issues.
Or perhaps the whole TES playerbase is wrong huh Nan?
I would agree with you if you knew entire TES playerbase. Which is not even possible.
I am also from the TES fan base. I have been playing TES going back to when they were 8 bit games. Of all single player RPGs TES franchises is my fav. Stop acting like you talk for the whole player fan base. Thats where you fail again!!!! More of the same over and over often is the death of franchises often is because of a lack of inavation. Grow or die. I am a fan and love the direction of this game. Get over your self as you and your kind are not as big a mob as you think you are. We fans on MMOrpg.com start thinking we are the majority opinion. We are just 2 mill members here of many millions. WoW alone has 10 million subs. 2 Million over all MMOs is nothing. Matter of fact my bet most members here have become the MMO hoppers.
I refuse to act like I am speaking for the majority but you make a little poll on a sub section of the MMO community and you think you have some great insight. You dont. Fact, some will like the model and some will not. Lots of TES fans will play this never with a care of what model it is as they will be playing their first MMO or are MMO fans as well and just wont care. And then there is the rabbid fans this thread supports. They will play the game no matter what but in the end rage quit because it dose not fit the LITTLE BOX they think it should. Even if its a good game they will most likely quit. Seen it happen with many a MMO that picks a great IP. When you pick a great IP you cant make all of them happy you just hope to get a good chunk of them.
Ah this minimus kind of argument again.
I never claimed to represent the whole player base - I can however reasonably claim that the TES playerbase like TES because of the things that make it fun. There may be a few people somewhere who play it because they hate it...
The likes of Nan think what makes TES fun can be thrown out with the dishwater without a problem.
Zenimax and every forum you care to visit where this issue comes up doesn't support this where TES fans speak up.
Find me a TES fan site where this isn't/wasn't thought to be a problem by said TES fans and I'll concede the point.
'rabbid', 'ragequite', etc.
You criticise me for bias I admit to, and support with my opinions. Then you claim you don't have any yourself and 'scream' your disdain for the very people you are addressing with these sorts of references.
Some might call that hypocrisy.
Why don't you do a poll stating your opinions and see what percentages you get Nan?
If he states that creating polls are pointless, why would you ask him to make one?
It is not minimus at all. When you begin to project and speak on behalf of entire player base (no matter how reasonable you think your claims is) it is just down hill from there.
It is very old tactic of argument by the way where people bring in these unseen and unheard 'playerbase' to give more volume to their argument. Old pressure tactics.
If i vist every single forum about TES i am sure i can find a lot of topics / posts which state otherwise doesn't mean i can 'reasonably' represent them all or use it as a basis of my argument.
You are not the first one to claim that you know what others want just on the basis of what you read on the forums.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
Polls at best are fun not fact finding. I would not make a poll on this topic as its scope of players it should cover could never be reached. Like my 5 friends who are TES fans but dont like or never play MMOs but will be playing ESO. They would never come to this forum as TES fans who are not MMO fans. Same with any fan URL thats about ESO. We will get a cross section of MMO fans from everywhere to play ESO but with the IP we will also get a lot of new MMOers as well. You gona go knock on their doors?
IMO they picked DAoC as the model to grab at the large number of MMO fans who have been yelling forever "Where is a new MMO we can goto with 3 faction war?" and it also gives new MMOers who like TES a place to play without being attacked. As a TES fan I think its the perfect fit of MMO fans and TES fans in one package. You disagree and its your right to but dont think your poll is the holly grail and true answer to how people feel.
I made no such claim - stop putting words in my mouth.
If you need it qualified so you can understand the point - then just put 'concerned' before playerbase.
If you want to base an entire argument on a single instance of symantics then trust me - you are going no-where and will be hung by your own petard...
Zenimax changed the game because of the TES fans - not as they would have done for a minority of TES fans, or a vocal few - but because they felt they had misstepped.
They certainly didn't do it because of me - the idea is laughable.
Just like it's laughable that a few rabid fans could have got them to make this fundamental change towards what was being asked for.
If TES fans hadn't been asking for it - it wouldn't have happened.
Of course that's a much more difficult position to criticise when compared to a quickly typed and imperfectly constructed reference.
If that's the only wiggle room available to you - by all means thrash it to death. It won't make any difference to the changes being made.
Nan's entire approach from the get-go has been to deconstruct and critique.
I haven't read any significant constructive suggestion from him during this whole debate - just 'it cannot be done' (proven wrong), it 'shouldn't be done' (unsupported with a cohesive argument as to why) and 'it will ruin the 3-way factional pvp' (refuted by a number of posters - all of their reasoned arguments then unaddressed).
The argument Nan uses is in my opinion similar to sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting 'la la la'.
I would LOVE him to prove me wrong by coming up with a constructive contribution, defining his point of view and the testing it in the court of online opinion.
But he doesn't - and as one person on these forums makes hillariously clear in his signature quote - can contradict himself mid-stride.
It's ever so easy to say 'I don't believe in polls; I don't represent anyone; I stand for nothing - but I'm right anyway' - and then cyberstalk any argument to the contrary.
Much harder to openly stand for something, lay out your stall in it's entirety and then defend your position.
But he doesn't do it does he...
Symantics? putting words in your mouth?
Or perhaps the whole TES playerbase is wrong huh Nan?
Your words not mine.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
Wrong and lies again. I started a thread on options on how to let people explore everywhere without breaking the 3 factions, look HERE. I have made suggestions on how there could be more races. I am all for change as long as it does not break the core model of the game. You on the other hand, sorry my mom taught me to say nothing at all.
Not directly related to the topic at hand, but can you really cyberstalk an argument that you've been involved in since the beginning? Isn't that an unfair characterization of what he's doing, and are you not simply using that word in an attempt to color anything he says (past or present) in a negative way, as if he has an agenda beyond the debate?
Just a thought.
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/