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Crafter can be a value added group member, just look at WAR's Engineers. I don't see a reason why a crafter that is at home in the battlefield (seige crafter or a builder) can't be successful in killing the enemy as a group member as long as CSE folks balance it all out properly.
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Why would they need to be competitive in open RvR? If they want to craft, harvest material, or defend/attack a keep, then the players take their crafter. If they want to roam and have non keep fight then they bring another class.
Considering than the crafters will need to go out in contested areas to get the higher crafting tool/ressources, then it won't be you that'll be dragging around a crafter, but the crafter that'll drag you around to get what he wants.
Also, having a defenseless class will create targets for the enemy to attack and you to defend, and so will increase the number and type of different fights. Once you'll have to protect your crafters, the next time you'll be the one attacking, another fight it'll be pure fighters only, add to that keep take and defense, there are already 6 different situations you can get in. It may even increase with the new ideas we will see with this game. Look, here is another situation : you start attacking some of your enemies, then the third realm get into the fight, either giving you an edge over your first target or putting you in a pinch as you have to defend both side.
I envisioned crafters not so much being in the RvR groups as being solo players or their own small groups running around behind the lines or off in the distance trying to accomplish things. They might have a fighter or two and healer dedicated to them, but the crafters wouldn't take slots in the 'roaming'-type groups.
That's for the keep, town, frontier builders. The ones who build the fundamental and/or essential pieces to expansion and growth, like repairing doors and walls, planning keeps and towns, setting up shops to supply goods, etc. This is, of course, all guesswork right now...but that's one aspect of crafting and how I imagined it, in part. These would be the highest leveled, dedicated "expansion" crafters, pushing out the best, most-reliable goods for players and towns/fortifications to build. These would be pretty weak fighters/healers, etc.
Now, there could also be hybrid crafter/fighter slots. We always talk about healer/dps, tank/dps, etc, but why not crafter/healer, or crafter/dps, like an engineer-type class who would be able to not only damage, set traps, funnels, destroy bridges, fight in general, but also repair better/faster than the non crafters or 1st level crafters but not as well as the highest crafters? Or the crafter/healer could be the only class that creates battlefield heal fonts based on its knowledge of flora or has special aoe's or triggers special buffs or regeneration depending on their particular skill set and where the group is in the world.
Gank groups might not want them, but perhaps another type of group would grow up around them.
So, there is a lot of possibility, but it DOES come with some pitfalls. If crafting is essential to success in the frontier areas, every realm is going to need a good amount of them. It could be a bigger cliff than the Healer or Speed Class necessity in DAoC. Pugs without them were free RPS. If a realm lacks a good quantity of builders, it could really hamper the entire game for them.
Meddyck! I remember you over on IGN and Alb/Percival!
anyway.. I'm curious to see how this plays out.. I loved Crafting/Housing and running Rams and Trebs, heck I had Lifter 3!.. combine all that into a Crafting class and it could be a blast.. I know I'll be trying it..
I think it would be funny to organize an all crafter night or something...
When I think of a crafter class I always think of EvE. EvE has sooo many different flavors of crafting. People that mine, haul, convert minerals to metal and finally building all manner of items.
All of the crafting ships had very little defenses but there were some ships that you could outfit with escape tools so you wouldn't be a an easy kill all the time. Hopefully in Cu they add the ability to get some of these defense abilities. Things like Purge CC, Speed Burst, SpeedWarp (structure that snares all around it). As a side note a lot of the abilities I mentioned are in DaoC on the Armor. For example Winged Helmet in DaoC has a Speed Burst ability attached to it. Imagine in DaoC if you didn't really have to worry about offensive stats as much and just got gear based upon the abilities and proc/reactives on it.
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
Originally posted by meddyck I'm not sure it does. This class will play an important role in various siege related things according to Mark. But as anybody who played DAOC, WAR, etc. will tell you, not all of your time in RvR is spent sieging. If you have a crafter in your group in an open field battle, you will be at a big disadvantage against an enemy group full of the other classes. I suppose it is possible crafters will also get weak combat abilities. But if you are going to do that, why not just make crafting like it is in other games including DAOC: something you can train in addition to your regular class rather than a class in itself? Then you could be a caster/crafter, tank/crafter, healer/crafter, etc. I'm just not seeing the advantage or need for crafting to be a class by itself.
A couple thoughts:
-I think you might be focusing a bit too much on how DAoC worked. I know MJ wants to recreate the "magic" that was DAoC, but I doubt he wants to recreate the 8-man/Stealth War/Zerg paradigm that DAoC became. By the end, no one even cared about taking keeps or relics... it was all about finding another group to fight. (Recall the server where the Mids actually RETURNED relics just to get some enemies out into the field!)
I think he wants to create a completely new type of RvR and his vision includes the crafter class as an important part. I think he wants to make sieges, keep takes and building construction a central theme in RvR... at least that's what I get from what I've read and heard from MJ.
-Who knows what the "Crafter" will be capable of doing? If he can lay down a bad ass AoE trap in a fight, I think that would probably be a good group class. Also, I believe the class might be capable of handling some combat, as well.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Originally posted by Tumblebutz -I think you might be focusing a bit too much on how DAoC worked. I know MJ wants to recreate the "magic" that was DAoC, but I doubt he wants to recreate the 8-man/Stealth War/Zerg paradigm that DAoC became. By the end, no one even cared about taking keeps or relics... it was all about finding another group to fight. (Recall the server where the Mids actually RETURNED relics just to get some enemies out into the field!)
8 mans or stealthers aren't the only groups in an RvR game. Countless times in DAOC my guild would make a guild group or pick up group and go roam around the frontiers. If there wasn't much open field action, then we would grab some rams and open up a tower or keep and either take it or farm enemies who came to defend.
Suppose in CU only crafters can build rams or siege towers. Then that means we are forced to take a crafter in our group (or along side us with his bard bot for speed) and we have one less caster, healer, tank, archer, etc. This leaves us vulnerable to other open field groups who do not have a crafter and makes us less capable of successfully taking or farming the structure we attack.
Now it could be that other classes will be able to deploy rams and towers and/or that the crafter class will also be able to build turrets like an engineer in WAR, GW 2, etc. In either of those cases, there is not much problem. But if not, then I'd rather see crafting work in the more traditional manner as an additional thing any class can train.
Camelot Unchained BackerDAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer
While I think the crafter class is a excellent, my belief (and this is in general to every crafter system I have seen) is that we haven't yet seen a true crafting system and from what MJ has said, they will have more of an "engineer" system, now before you go all WHAT on me!
A proper crafting system allows users to create content, I'm yet to see any developer do this correctly, what do I mean by correctly ?
A crafting system should provide the tools to allow users to create objects in context to the game environment, it requires a cut down modelling tool or system that allows users to create in game items from resources, be it hammering a ingot to a shape or pulling sliders on existing parts (crafting skill and user skill should be the key to quality of items), this can be based on pure design and creation or distinct variance control over objects from scale/shape/texture/skins/decals/makers markings etc...
In the case of CU I think mark knows what he's doing, the "crafter class" will be a backbone to each faction, and will provide the items required on the battle field in a support and supply role, but beyond that I don't think the crafting side of the class will have much mileage, once their are 1000+ crafters.
Here's another bit of the document i've been working up that describes how I hope crafters are incorporated into CU:
In the system I would like to see the way classes would be incorporated is that your class would determine which skill lines you may select, how far you may progress in each skill line, and how much each skill in a given skill line would cost (in terms of class points). I envision leveling in a class provides some number of class points per class level. Both of these concepts would need to be balanced after being fully fleshed out, but for the purpose of this description assume that it will be cheaper for a melee based class to buy skills in hand-to-hand combat than any other class that has access to those skills, and that they would be unrestricted in the depth into that line to train (it’s primary to their class). On the other hand, any non-crafting class would be restricted from advancing beyond the journeyman level skills in a crafting skill line, and it might cost them twice (or whatever multiplier) as many class points to train each skill as it would for a crafting class in the level(s) in which they can train. In my description I will assume there is only one crafting/building class per realm (at least at launch) and the difference between the two will only be determined by the choice of skill lines the player selects for that character. Furthermore, I assume that some, if not nearly all, skill lines are open to any class at the journeyman level, thus a crafter would have access to the same journeyman level melee skills as a melee class, but at a higher cost, just as the melee class would have access to the journeyman level crafting skills (some things I have read make this assumption a bit dubious).
Skills would be clustered into groups called skill lines. Each skill line would have various specific skills in one of the three tiers: journeyman, master, artisan. Each line would be primary, secondary, or tertiary for a given class, with some lines not available at all. Primary skill lines would be open at the artisan level and have the least cost at the journeyman and master levels. Secondary lines would be open to the master level and be more expensive than primary skills. Tertiary lines would be any line available that is not primary or secondary, would only be open to the journeyman level, and would be more expensive to train than secondary skills in the journeyman level. Personally, I would not have a single track which must be purchased one-by-one to get to a specific skill (as in WAR’s mastery skills). Instead, I would require a minimum number of journeyman skills to be trained in a line before the character can train any master skills. The master skills may have specific prerequisites in the journeyman level, but not all journeyman skills would have to be trained to learn the first master skill. Similarly, specific artisan skills could have prerequisites in the master level, but only some minimum number of master skills would have to be learned (not all, unless they were pre-requisites) before the first artisan skill would be available. Characters would use class points gained as they level their class to train each skill. Master level skills would cost more class points than journeyman, and artisan skills would cost more than master skills. I will not attempt to generate a full list of skills, or even skill lines, as that is beyond the scope of this thread. I provide the list below as a way of illustrating how I use the terms journeyman, master and artisan as mentioned in Mark Jacobs’ founding principle on crafting. Several skills have been intentionally placed in the journeyman level such that any class would have access to them.
Artisan skills would have the option of adding class points after initially buying them. Doing so would have the effect of increasing the likelihood of success (and/or critical success) by some amount. This could be done a number of times determined by balance testing (since one character might decide to put all their class points into a specific skill to ensure a critical success on every use).
As far as class levels are concerned, I would have no hard level cap in the game, but the only benefit of levels above a certain point (say maybe level 40 or 50) would be increased class points. Mind you, I would make every level require between 150% and 200% of the experience points needed to reach the previous level, so at some point one more level might take thousands of hours of game play to achieve. But, imagine the bragging rights of being the highest level character on your server! The thing with this is that since you receive the same benefit for each level gained beyond the soft cap (in terms of class points) it becomes a balancing factor across both realms and between casual and hard-core players. Since a level 50 character would not be significantly weaker than a level 55, but the 55 would be able to claim superiority, and have some actual benefit for all the time spent playing.
The first builders/crafters skill line that I propose involves animal husbandry (grants pets). The journeyman level skills would allow the raising of livestock (for food or hides) and the most basic pack animal. The line might also include riding skill at this level, if that is not a universal thing. The master level would include larger pack animals, defensive combat pets, and first level speed mounts. The artisan level would hold the second speed mounts, offensive combat pets, and the largest pack animals. This line would have to be coupled (possibly with another player) with another line that is used to construct carts and wagons if those were to be implemented (I expect vehicles to be a stretch goal at best).
The second skill line on my wish list would be siege weapon use/construction. Here the journeyman level skills would include the operation of siege weapons and possibly the construction of projectiles for ranged siege engines. The master level would include assembly and disassembly (why shouldn’t siege engines be reusable? although disassembly might be artisan level) of siege engines, construction of the parts that make the basic level of engines (think rams, ballistae, boiling oil cauldrons, etc.), and sapping (wall undermining). The artisan level would be where you get construction of the most powerful engines (trebuchets, AoE catapults, iron capped rams with protective coverings, siege towers, etc.), tunneling for going under walls (not collapsing them), and the construction of specialized projectiles (Greek fire, exploding barrels, cable laying ballista bolts for climbing over walls, etc.).
The third skill line that would be primary (meaning no other class can train the artisan (and possibly master) skills) to crafters/builders would be the speed buff skill line. I already included ridable pets in the animal husbandry line which would offer speed one and speed two which the crafter could sell to other players. Those would be enhanced by the speed buff provided by roads (which would have an effect dependent on the level of the road from one to three) offering a maximum speed level of five. I would put speed one as a buff in the journeyman level, speed two as the master skill, and speed three to five (or six, seven, whatever) as artisan skills.
The final skill line I will include for crafters and builders is the one that allows a character to use or make snares and traps. At the journeyman level would be the placement of crafted snares, detection of snares/traps, and a skill to free oneself (and others) from snares (which would have a cast time, so as not to totally negate the snare). Master level skills would include crafting of pre-set snares/traps, use of on-the-fly snares (placed while moving, or possibly ranged in nature), placing of traps (traps cause damage, whereas snares affect movement), and disarming of snares (prior to being set-off). Artisan skills would include placement of AoE snares/traps, use of on-the-fly traps, disarming traps, and construction of deadly traps. Snares and traps, when placed successfully, would be invisible to enemy players and last either for very long durations, or permanently until sprung or disarmed. They could be placed on the ground or on walls (and may have an effect specific to siege equipment). Friendly players would see a red polygon around the area snared/trapped, but would not be immune to the effect of the snare/trap. Therefore, placement of these items should be done with care. When a player successfully disarms a snare or trap, they would receive the item in their inventory to use (assuming they have that ability) or trade.
I suggest the above skill lines for crafters/builders so that they will provide some other utility in RvR beyond that provided before and after combat through construction and crafting. Keep in mind that no one character would ever be able to train every skill available to their class. If they chose to concentrate on the crafting line, they might forego any RvR related skill to save class points to train another armor type (metal, hide, or cloth) rather than having the ability to make snares and traps, siege equipment, or combat pets.
i dont see how non-combatant classes can fit in a game where all you will be doing is pvp pvp pvp pvp.
Unless the game doesnt fully focus on pvp like we have been told so many times.
I personally feel that the 'crafter' class will be much like the worker in the Civilization series; the class unit literally makes an empire thrive through its road systems, fortifications, and commerce buildings. In ancient or modern warfare, soldiers have a basic understand of how to reinforce a keep door and provide additional support to a wall; however, they do not possess the true ability to full rebuild, repair, or remodel existing architecture because they lack the experience and education.
The same goes for the blacksmith soldier - in all likelihood, this soldier would either excel at blacksmithing or at being a soldier, but not at both - it's far more probable that the individual would specialize into something.
Honestly? I'm not so for it. It could be neat in a way having a class not focused on combat but at the same time it feelsl ike it brings up issues with it. Crafting and all that can get boring quick and unless its somehow done right it just to me wouldn't feel very good to play. It promotes having other characters which.... I guess is good but at the same time its not really that great.
Its one of those things I'm actually quite iffy about. Maybe if its done right but I just have a feeling it won't be done right.
Originally posted by rojo6934 i dont see how non-combatant classes can fit in a game where all you will be doing is pvp pvp pvp pvp. Unless the game doesnt fully focus on pvp like we have been told so many times.
Think of them as pvp enablers. They make the items that other use in pvp. What would make them interesting is being really weak pvp-wise and having to get out in the danger zone to do crafting. To me, that opens more meaningful pvp.
IF there really is going to be a crafter class I welcome it, it is a new thing and that is what we need.... not the same old classes all over again.
Originally posted by Purutzil Honestly? I'm not so for it. It could be neat in a way having a class not focused on combat but at the same time it feelsl ike it brings up issues with it. Crafting and all that can get boring quick and unless its somehow done right it just to me wouldn't feel very good to play. It promotes having other characters which.... I guess is good but at the same time its not really that great. Its one of those things I'm actually quite iffy about. Maybe if its done right but I just have a feeling it won't be done right.
For the players who like crafting, they will get something they like. Just like people who like mages will get casters, and warrior types will get what they want. There will be things you want and other things you don't want.
I suspect some of the resentment in the thread are those who want their character to do it all.
We want games to do something different but complain when we get it.
a crafter class in what's essentially a pvp arena is just an easy target, maybe if they flesh the game out sometime after release.
I think crafter-classes add a lot to the roleplaying and feel to the world. In Ragnarok Online there was a Merchant class, which could then become Blacksmith or Alchemist. I just loved seeing merchants sit around and Blacksmiths and Alchemists producing their stuff. And then there were bards and gypsys...you get the idea, interesting classes with a little less battle-orientation can add some nice details.
Originally posted by Karahandras Originally posted by rojo6934 i dont see how non-combatant classes can fit in a game where all you will be doing is pvp pvp pvp pvp. Unless the game doesnt fully focus on pvp like we have been told so many times.
Perhaps, as a crafter, I'll just stay in town smashing out weapons on my forge, McDuck through the gold piles in my house, or just be about selling my wares to the fighters from the safety of town.
I really have no problem being at a disadvantage if I am needed at the front or in the wilds to help build a structure with my crafter. Either my friends will help guard my crafter as I work or the project will not get finished.
I think crafting will be fun.
Chris "Foggye" Hiatt about 2 hours ago@MJ - I understand quite well what sort of role the crafters will play. Although, I'm curious to know how well they'll be able to defend themselves from a direct attack from PvP centric classes. Are they going to be worth anything to kill as an opposing force?Curtis D. Miller about 2 hours ago@Chris "Foggye" HiattChris I get the impression that if your crafters have to go into hostile territory to say rebuild or build, repair a fort the realm will need to protect them while they accomplish this.@ Curtis D. That's a given. I was just wondering if they were gonna have a few tricks, an escape tool, or are they going to be lambs for the slaughter.Creator City State Entertainment about 2 hours ago[MJ] Round three.@Chris Hiatt - The crafters best defense if they are about to be overwhelmed will be prayer and foot speed. Maybe in that order, maybe not.
The crafters aren't by the sounds gonna be able to even start to stand toe to toe against a battle class. Sure, you can arm yourself. You just won't have much skill beyond it. Similiar to the battle classes very limited ability to craft. Though they may have more options in using siege equipment. Their effectiveness will be in cooperation with making repairs in defenses, making ladders for the attackers, etc. Their focus will be elsewhere, and as Curtis D mentioned there. They'll need to be protected.
Originally posted by Foggye The crafters aren't by the sounds gonna be able to even start to stand toe to toe against a battle class. Sure, you can arm yourself. You just won't have much skill beyond it. Similiar to the battle classes very limited ability to craft. Though they may have more options in using siege equipment. Their effectiveness will be in cooperation with making repairs in defenses, making ladders for the attackers, etc. Their focus will be elsewhere, and as Curtis D mentioned there. They'll need to be protected.
Sounds about right to me. CHOOSE your class, play your class, or CHOOSE another class (or another game). I don't want casters tanking, tanks healing, or healers nuking. Why should crafters be any of those three?
Honestly, how many times have you heard someone complain about the squishy character who thought he should lead the charge? Doesn't that drive you nuts? If you believe tanks should be in front and taking the damage, and healers and casters behind healing and dishing damage, then you already agree that crafters should be the "squishiest of all."
When you backed this game, you didn't want rock / paper / scissors / concrete-bunker-encased-self-healing-nuke did you? If so, you might want to reconsider your pledge. MJ has said there will be no easy mode, and that players will have to work together.
I, for one, can't wait!
As long as crafters have a lot of things to do, and those things are fun, sure, why not have a pure crafter class. As has been pointed out, there are people who would enjoy playing such a class who may not have much desire for RvR (especially fast-paced none siege RvR) Heck, I spent a month in eve playing a pure crafter, buying supplies, making stuff then selling, and had a blast doing it.
Plus, think of the RvR potential this has. Say you capture an important landmark and want to build a fort around it to help defend, to build a fort you need crafters, but crafters suck at pvp and need protection. Well, right there you have a "get this crafters to such n such location safely" quest that had just been created by the players themselves. Will you be able to protect those crafters and get them there safely? will the opposing realms try to intercept you? Think of the excitement
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. ~Declaration of Arbroath