Originally posted by Panzerbase With no well defined roles the game will turn into a boring cookie cut FOTM PVP disaster.
There are roles. This is a trinity game. No word yet if their is enough CC skills to make a 4th role set.
Thank god for the trinity even though some dont like to be forced to do a role. The classic trinity in PvE is tank, healer, DPS, but in PvP the dynamic changes to support, healer, DPS. I certainly hope they have CC, hard counters against CC, and true immunity timers. Being CC or stun locked is one of the worst things they can let into a game. I quit WAR and Rift largely because of these things as it really kills the PvP experience whe you can be cheesed to death. I also hope they have some speed mechanic other than a horse as well so smaller groups can hit and run larger less organized groups and have a chance.
That's pretty well a given these days, PvP CC is mostly short interrupts these days with diminishing returns imunity timers. I f you thought WAR and Rift were bad, I'm betting you weren't there at the beginning of Dark Age of Camelot. CC there was outrageous...duration of roots at over a minute, Mezzes at half a minute and stuns (that would not break on damage) that lasted 10 seconds or more and could be reapplied for the same length lol.
It was so bad that one of the 3 side, Midgard the Norse realm, was known to all as Stungard. On the Albion side, Ice-spec Theurgists could AOE root, with no maximum number of players limit, for 75 seconds... you could root 50+ players with one cast if they were tightly packed.
They tuned it down eventually of course. I think all PvP developers these days learned a lot from those early days and instead of giving squishy classes overpowered CC to protect themselves, they tend to give them speed boosts together with short 3-6 second CC so they can get away instead. Still, no matter what they give them, those chasing them will bitch. Such is the nature of Rock being OK with Scissors but wanting Paper nerfed.
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Originally posted by Panzerbase With no well defined roles the game will turn into a boring cookie cut FOTM PVP disaster.
There are roles. This is a trinity game. No word yet if their is enough CC skills to make a 4th role set.
Thank god for the trinity even though some dont like to be forced to do a role. The classic trinity in PvE is tank, healer, DPS, but in PvP the dynamic changes to support, healer, DPS. I certainly hope they have CC, hard counters against CC, and true immunity timers. Being CC or stun locked is one of the worst things they can let into a game. I quit WAR and Rift largely because of these things as it really kills the PvP experience whe you can be cheesed to death. I also hope they have some speed mechanic other than a horse as well so smaller groups can hit and run larger less organized groups and have a chance.
That's pretty well a given these days, PvP CC is mostly short interrupts these days with diminishing returns imunity timers. I f you thought WAR and Rift were bad, I'm betting you weren't there at the beginning of Dark Age of Camelot. CC there was outrageous...duration of roots at over a minute, Mezzes at half a minute and stuns (that would not break on damage) that lasted 10 seconds or more and could be reapplied for the same length lol.
It was so bad that one of the 3 side, Midgard the Norse realm, was known to all as Stungard. On the Albion side, Ice-spec Theurgists could AOE root, with no maximum number of players limit, for 75 seconds... you could root 50+ players with one cast if they were tightly packed.
They tuned it down eventually of course. I think all PvP developers these days learned a lot from those early days and instead of giving squishy classes overpowered CC to protect themselves, they tend to give them speed boosts together with short 3-6 second CC so they can get away instead. Still, no matter what they give them, those chasing them will bitch. Such is the nature of Rock being OK with Scissors but wanting Paper nerfed.
I was there, but chose not to add in any DAOC comments or POV as alot of people really look down on DAOC mechanics for some reason.
I played all 3 realms over the years, and played the primary CC classes, RR5 bard in Hib, RR8 sorc in Alb, and RR7 healer in Mid. At release there was no immunity timer, ugg, I remember Stungard, lol. I also remember before they added a 16 player max effected by CC, heh. Mythics solution to the immunity timer is probably the best solution I have seen though. Add in purge, charge, det, mez damp, resists, demezz and there were plenty of tools to use vs CC. Casted stun was as it should be, lockdown, short duration, and with resists factored in, around 6-7 seconds, with a 5 second times length of stun factored for immunity. Mez and root were long duration. Mez can be cured, root didnt interupt spell casting other than the initial casting, both were effected by gear resists, and if I remember right had a 1 minute immunity. The mechanics were complex, and that actually made it good. Knowing the mechanics of the game were part of being a good player. Now the mechanics of almost all MMOs are so dumbed down my 8 year old son can understand them.
I hate the idea of spammable CC. The diminishing return system is often worse than a long duration system in my opinion as you can get CCed to death as you can use a counter and just get CCed again. The dimishing return system also has the problem of having just as long a duration as a single long duration CC as the initial CC may only be 10 seconds, but the 20% diminishing returns system may work at 8, 6, 4, 2 seconds for a total of 30 seconds of CC. CC needs to be a tactical decision, not a spammable I win button that it is used for now in most games.
You mentioned speed bursts as well. Another easy mode fix. Casters need to be vulnerable. Right now casters really do hold the upper hand in most MMOs for PvP. Very few games have hard interupts and or require the caster to stand still while casting. Positioning and good play are not rewarded anymore. Easymode get-a-way buttons and cheese is the order of the day.
"Of course this is a skill based game and anyone can wear any equipment so a templar could still equip and use bows."
I'm tired of having classes that does a bit of everything instead of focusing into one specific role. Will be interesting to see how this turns out for pvp.
If there is no holy trinity in place I think I will pass on this game. It didn't really work out for me in GW2.
I think it uses trinity, but allows free selection of weapons and armor.
Seems fine to me.
I care more about free equipment selection than most people.
That's pretty well a given these days, PvP CC is mostly short interrupts these days with diminishing returns imunity timers. I f you thought WAR and Rift were bad, I'm betting you weren't there at the beginning of Dark Age of Camelot. CC there was outrageous...duration of roots at over a minute, Mezzes at half a minute and stuns (that would not break on damage) that lasted 10 seconds or more and could be reapplied for the same length lol.
It was so bad that one of the 3 side, Midgard the Norse realm, was known to all as Stungard. On the Albion side, Ice-spec Theurgists could AOE root, with no maximum number of players limit, for 75 seconds... you could root 50+ players with one cast if they were tightly packed.
They tuned it down eventually of course. I think all PvP developers these days learned a lot from those early days and instead of giving squishy classes overpowered CC to protect themselves, they tend to give them speed boosts together with short 3-6 second CC so they can get away instead. Still, no matter what they give them, those chasing them will bitch. Such is the nature of Rock being OK with Scissors but wanting Paper nerfed.
I was there, but chose not to add in any DAOC comments or POV as alot of people really look down on DAOC mechanics for some reason.
I played all 3 realms over the years, and played the primary CC classes, RR5 bard in Hib, RR8 sorc in Alb, and RR7 healer in Mid. At release there was no immunity timer, ugg, I remember Stungard, lol. I also remember before they added a 16 player max effected by CC, heh. Mythics solution to the immunity timer is probably the best solution I have seen though. Add in purge, charge, det, mez damp, resists, demezz and there were plenty of tools to use vs CC. Casted stun was as it should be, lockdown, short duration, and with resists factored in, around 6-7 seconds, with a 5 second times length of stun factored for immunity. Mez and root were long duration. Mez can be cured, root didnt interupt spell casting other than the initial casting, both were effected by gear resists, and if I remember right had a 1 minute immunity. The mechanics were complex, and that actually made it good. Knowing the mechanics of the game were part of being a good player. Now the mechanics of almost all MMOs are so dumbed down my 8 year old son can understand them.
I hate the idea of spammable CC. The diminishing return system is often worse than a long duration system in my opinion as you can get CCed to death as you can use a counter and just get CCed again. The dimishing return system also has the problem of having just as long a duration as a single long duration CC as the initial CC may only be 10 seconds, but the 20% diminishing returns system may work at 8, 6, 4, 2 seconds for a total of 30 seconds of CC. CC needs to be a tactical decision, not a spammable I win button that it is used for now in most games.
You mentioned speed bursts as well. Another easy mode fix. Casters need to be vulnerable. Right now casters really do hold the upper hand in most MMOs for PvP. Very few games have hard interupts and or require the caster to stand still while casting. Positioning and good play are not rewarded anymore. Easymode get-a-way buttons and cheese is the order of the day.
In DAoC the fights lasted much longer than in todays blitzkrieg killfests, so the longer CC was justified.
One thing I loved about DAoC was that you couldn't move through other characters, and the bigger the race, the more space they took up. So tanks could actually hold a choke point and keep the support casters behind them safe. The reason I bring that up is because I think it plays a role in a caster's defensive tools, and reduces the actual need for heavier CC. So I agree with your last paragraph that cheesy escape mechanics should be extremely limited.
In DAoC the fights lasted much longer than in todays blitzkrieg killfests, so the longer CC was justified.
One thing I loved about DAoC was that you couldn't move through other characters, and the bigger the race, the more space they took up. So tanks could actually hold a choke point and keep the support casters behind them safe. The reason I bring that up is because I think it plays a role in a caster's defensive tools, and reduces the actual need for heavier CC. So I agree with your last paragraph that cheesy escape mechanics should be extremely limited.
You got that wrong, heh. WAR used that system and it had its good and bad points. I always felt you should be able to move through players from your faction, but not run thru enemy players. DAOC you could run through players. I will admit I abused the crap out of being able to run through in DAOC on both my melee and caster classes.
DAOC only had longer fights if you played it smart and it only got worse as the game progressed as caster and to a lesser extent melee DPS only increased. If you got out of position and got hit by the assist train, you were screwed. The mark of a decent group was the ability to rez a player mid fight and rebuff them to get them effective again.
Comments
That's pretty well a given these days, PvP CC is mostly short interrupts these days with diminishing returns imunity timers. I f you thought WAR and Rift were bad, I'm betting you weren't there at the beginning of Dark Age of Camelot. CC there was outrageous...duration of roots at over a minute, Mezzes at half a minute and stuns (that would not break on damage) that lasted 10 seconds or more and could be reapplied for the same length lol.
It was so bad that one of the 3 side, Midgard the Norse realm, was known to all as Stungard. On the Albion side, Ice-spec Theurgists could AOE root, with no maximum number of players limit, for 75 seconds... you could root 50+ players with one cast if they were tightly packed.
They tuned it down eventually of course. I think all PvP developers these days learned a lot from those early days and instead of giving squishy classes overpowered CC to protect themselves, they tend to give them speed boosts together with short 3-6 second CC so they can get away instead. Still, no matter what they give them, those chasing them will bitch. Such is the nature of Rock being OK with Scissors but wanting Paper nerfed.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I was there, but chose not to add in any DAOC comments or POV as alot of people really look down on DAOC mechanics for some reason.
I played all 3 realms over the years, and played the primary CC classes, RR5 bard in Hib, RR8 sorc in Alb, and RR7 healer in Mid. At release there was no immunity timer, ugg, I remember Stungard, lol. I also remember before they added a 16 player max effected by CC, heh. Mythics solution to the immunity timer is probably the best solution I have seen though. Add in purge, charge, det, mez damp, resists, demezz and there were plenty of tools to use vs CC. Casted stun was as it should be, lockdown, short duration, and with resists factored in, around 6-7 seconds, with a 5 second times length of stun factored for immunity. Mez and root were long duration. Mez can be cured, root didnt interupt spell casting other than the initial casting, both were effected by gear resists, and if I remember right had a 1 minute immunity. The mechanics were complex, and that actually made it good. Knowing the mechanics of the game were part of being a good player. Now the mechanics of almost all MMOs are so dumbed down my 8 year old son can understand them.
I hate the idea of spammable CC. The diminishing return system is often worse than a long duration system in my opinion as you can get CCed to death as you can use a counter and just get CCed again. The dimishing return system also has the problem of having just as long a duration as a single long duration CC as the initial CC may only be 10 seconds, but the 20% diminishing returns system may work at 8, 6, 4, 2 seconds for a total of 30 seconds of CC. CC needs to be a tactical decision, not a spammable I win button that it is used for now in most games.
You mentioned speed bursts as well. Another easy mode fix. Casters need to be vulnerable. Right now casters really do hold the upper hand in most MMOs for PvP. Very few games have hard interupts and or require the caster to stand still while casting. Positioning and good play are not rewarded anymore. Easymode get-a-way buttons and cheese is the order of the day.
You cant fix stupid - Ron White
I think it uses trinity, but allows free selection of weapons and armor.
Seems fine to me.
I care more about free equipment selection than most people.
In DAoC the fights lasted much longer than in todays blitzkrieg killfests, so the longer CC was justified.
One thing I loved about DAoC was that you couldn't move through other characters, and the bigger the race, the more space they took up. So tanks could actually hold a choke point and keep the support casters behind them safe. The reason I bring that up is because I think it plays a role in a caster's defensive tools, and reduces the actual need for heavier CC. So I agree with your last paragraph that cheesy escape mechanics should be extremely limited.
You got that wrong, heh. WAR used that system and it had its good and bad points. I always felt you should be able to move through players from your faction, but not run thru enemy players. DAOC you could run through players. I will admit I abused the crap out of being able to run through in DAOC on both my melee and caster classes.
DAOC only had longer fights if you played it smart and it only got worse as the game progressed as caster and to a lesser extent melee DPS only increased. If you got out of position and got hit by the assist train, you were screwed. The mark of a decent group was the ability to rez a player mid fight and rebuff them to get them effective again.
You cant fix stupid - Ron White