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Why is it bad to pre order a game but ok to pledge hundreds..maybe thousands on kickstarter?

DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member

Remember this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf5Uj4XIT1Y

People get so much flak for pre ordering a MMO for merely 50 to 60 bucks while people pledge hundreds of dollars of their hard earned money on kickstarters. How is it any different? all you got is word of the developers and big promises. You don't get to participate before hand or test anything before handing out your hard earned cash.

Atleast, people who pre order have enough videos, previews and beta testing to make up their mind while pledgers just go by someone's word alone and promises which might be as real as pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Can anyone help me understand why former is bad and looked down upon in general while later is ok and encouraged?

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

image

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Comments

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Nm misread.. I'll post why I use kickstarter after I get home

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon

    The most hipocritic part is when people throw so much crap on companies that offer preorders and extra items for early beta access, and when one of the kickstarter perks for pledging a small fortune is guaranteed alpha/beta tests and extra items they threat it like it's like the most waesome and exclusive feature ever.

     

     

    The internet never ceases to amuse.

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

     

    In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

     

    In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    The only thing bad in this discussion is giving a crap what other people say about your decision in regard to this subject.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

     

    In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

     

    In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

    Pre orders also get a lot of perks (watch the video i posted).

    Although, it is true that whole purpose of kickstarter is to get money off people to make the game but still my conundrum is more about the 'attitude' of people and not the money itself.

    Pre ordering has somehow become a dirty word even when chances of someone being fooled are lot less while pre ordering a game compared to a kickstarter project which may or may not turn out to be as promised.

    In both cases you are paying for something on basis of mere faith and confidence.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • LeaningKidGokuLeaningKidGoku Lima, OHPosts: 41Member

    The thing with pre-ordering is that when you use to pre-order it was just to make sureyou don't got to worry about them running out of stock for the game, and it helps know how many games to actually copy and send to a certain store. But people never even pre-ordered until developers came with the idea to give a special gift to the player like.., getting an weapon or armor that you couldn't get without pre-ordering or maybe a CBT Key for the game so you can test it out.  

    Nothing is really wrong with it, people just don't think pre-ordering is annoying because they end up getting owned by a another person who actually did pre-order the game and owns them with a weapon they can't get or they have more experience with the game than the other person.

     

    Kickstarter on the other hand is just a way for people to get money from other people by mainly to me, begging.

    And if they got an good idea that is actually worth something then wonderful, but some people just make one to scam others to just giving them free money.

    Atleast with pre-ordering you know the reason why you're paying for it.

    With Kickstarter you just never know you could be giving your money away for no reason at all.

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  • tinuelletinuelle bergenPosts: 287Member Uncommon

    Hehe, in my opinion a kickstarter is just an alpha-preorder.

    And it aint bad to preorder, its just that you risk something since the product hasn't been released yet in either case.

    image
  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,948Member Uncommon
    Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.
  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,446Member Uncommon
    Now you know what it is like to be an investor.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

    It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter.

     

    You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would. Jesus christ people.

  • SoulStainSoulStain Tampa, FLPosts: 202Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?

     

    In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.

     

    In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.

    And with a Kickstarter the game may not be made even with your money. No guarantee at all. 

    I'd rather actually pay for something than the hope of something. As far as pre-order perks. Most retailers have their own variations on some special items and usually games adhere to the exclusivity ( most..not all ..talking to you Fallen Earth and STO)..so i have no problem with that. I also do not presume that a game should include everything the developer comes up with until the end of time especially if its a consistent online game with no monthly fee and no outrageous cash shop.

     Now if the game is 4 hours of play and they offer dlc the first day..I call Bullshit. In the case of my last pre-order, Defiance..well i've played the game and there is plenty of content imo to get my moneys worth. The pre-order before that..Marvel Heroes..was only 19.99 (wolverine...and no..not a wolverine bandwagon fan. I purchase the original issues of his appearance in The Incredible Hulk off of 7-11 comic racks. Always been a fan of the character). There are games I will not pre-order like Neverwinter...the pricing is ridiculous and the game doesnt look that good to me. Not like D&D at all imo.

    The only time I feel I've been burned by a Pre-order is with The WarZ. My fault. Lesson learned and I will never install that game again or any game they create in the future.

  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member

    Pre-order: OMG I can play Monday instead of Wednesday! I'll be ahead of everyone else!! Plus a nifty trinket and mount!!

     

    Kickstarter: OMG, I can play in 2014 beta instead of 2015 beta! I'll be ahead of everyone else!! Plus forum access and a thank you note!!

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    No publisher to get in the way of development. That is why Kickstarter is better.
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  • LeaningKidGokuLeaningKidGoku Lima, OHPosts: 41Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

    What about if the Pre-Ordered MMO allows a reward for the gamer who pre-orders it?

    It's not dumb really if they allow some type of "Reward" for pre-ordering.  But I agree with you on Kickstarter, it's not worth it.

    image

  • AvarixAvarix Chicago, ILPosts: 382Member Uncommon

    Preordering is about a lack of patience. They give small incentives to push people already wanting to buy it without knowing what it truly is over the edge for this reason. If you would wait a few weeks you could easily find out a ton of information about the game and whether you should take that risk and support the devs for what they DID (Not to be confused with what they say they did).

     

    Kickstarter is different because the game won't exist at all without your support and patience is actually needed. You may not see the game completed for years. It's not simply a matter of waiting a few weeks to see how it is. Its actual existence is on the line and after that you still have years to wait. You're supporting the devs for their IDEAS (Not to be confused with the actual finished product).

     

    • Pre-order and you're paying for impatience and telling devs "I like what you created!". This could be a horrible game and the message you send to the industry is "I want more of this!".
    • Kickstarter and you're paying for ideas and telling devs "I like what you're thinking!". Even if it ends up being a horrible game, you supported the idea of it and their mission statement, not the end product.
     
    Hopefully I got my point across. Feeling a bit foggy today so it may not make sense to me tomorrow :)

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

    Yeah .. i don't believe in KS, and i don't pre-order.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,948Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Originally posted by Burntvet
    Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

    It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter.

     

    You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would. Jesus christ people.

     

    Ummm... no. You don't get it.... there is no legal obligation to release a game after taking KS money, if you "can't" do it. And if the money is spent, and the game is still not released, it's gone. And as a "backer", and not an "investor" or "equity holder", a person has no legal recourse and no rights. Regardless of what any KS terms of use say, if something is not legally actionable, that's it.
  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).

    There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.

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    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmoguy43
    Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

    Yeah.

     

    Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

    image
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    Both are stupid, it is only worse for KS, as the numbers tend to be bigger and at least for pre-ordering (which I will not ever be doing), there is a game, i.e. it exists. Throwing down hundreds of dollars or more for an MMO that might not ever come to be, and no recourse to reclaim that money if it doesn't is not something I could ever see myself doing. Call me crazy, but I actually want to get what I pay for, and I'll pay when I get it. So, at this point: Pre-order MMO - dumb, Pre-order MMO-LTS - really dumb, KS "donation" at a high level for a theoretical MMO - "stop eating the lead paint chips" time.

    It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter.

     

    You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would. Jesus christ people.

    Is he? so if the game doesn't turn out  as adverstised during kickstarter annoucement what do you do? get your money back or sue the company?

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by mmoguy43
    Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

    Yeah.

     

    Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

    The problem is most game development NEED more money than they can get from Kickstarter - period. THink penny stocks and this is akin to Kickstarter.

     

    Currently 41% of all Kickstarter campaigns fail.

     

    http://edithosb.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/kickstarter/

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,925Member Uncommon

    THe thing is, those pre-orders are for games that ARE ALREADY MADE. Kickstarter is for projects that aren't there and need funding to actually see the light of day. Theres a huge difference there. You are essencially investing in a game that would otherwise have no chance to come to fruition. Often, those projects are indie developed or done by small studios that can take more risks and can go outside the box unlike insert generic shooter here. 

     

    In short:

    To pre-order a game you pay for something that in most cases WILL come out, in a kickstarter, your supporting a project that would otherwise not happen. 

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    I'll probably never pre-order or use kickstarter ever again.  Last game I pre-ordered (if you don't include expansions) was Rift.  There hasn't been a game since that I was like "O...M...G!!!"  So I don't pre-order them.  Until something comes out that's better than WoW or Rift, I won't preorder anything probably.  I'm still out on ESO, but that might break the streak.  From what I'm hearing, I'm liking the game more and more.  It's almost exactly what I thought it would be like back when I played oblivion or skyrim or any of the old TES games, "What if this game was an MMO!?!"
  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,948Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by mmoguy43
    Now you know what it is like to be an investor.

    Yeah.

     

    Isn't Kickstarter perfect for the gamer? Instead of 'suits' putting up money just to make money, it's left to gamers to invest in an idea they'd like to see become reality.

    The problem is most game development NEED more money than they can get from Kickstarter - period. THink penny stocks and this is akin to Kickstarter.

     

    I would say this is most true in the case of MMOs. Despite my being very critical of KS in terms of MMO development, I was a "standard" backer for the Wasteland2 SPG KS. Why? Because the developer, who made the original game, came out and said: "We need XX dollars to make the game to completion, if we get that, the game will be made in XX time. If we get more, we'll add more stuff." Check, no problem, I can support that. But most of these MMO KSs are pie in the sky attempts to raise "some revenue" to do "something". That sounds an awful lot like throwing money down a hole to me. No way a KS could raise full funding for anything resembling a "decent" MMO.
  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    I guess people would rather pay for vaporware than an almost finished game.
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