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Greed Monger switches back to Unity and Forums get Removed!

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  • ThradokThradok St. James, MNPosts: 57Member
    Originally posted by Biskop
    Kickstarter has made this tendency even more apparent, but I think a backlash is coming as more and more people feel scammed by fake "devs" promising the moon. Embers of Caerus will probably be the next KS disaster; those guys are also amateurs painting a grand picture of a revolutionary MMO based on nothing but words and concept art, and some people are buying it without asking any questions. It will not end well either.

    Dave already commented on this, but I'd just like to add that you may wish to take a look at our most recent newsletter. It's because of sentiments similar to this that we will soon(tm) have at least a little something for people to 'play.' If nothing else it should prove that we are moving forward steadily with development and won't be crashing any time soon.

    You can see it here.

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    No one makes a sandbox MMORPG in less than 6 months with only $90,000

    from: "Unity is cool, how do i import all these assets i bought?" ~ Jason Appleton

    to: "We change Engines twice but are ready with an Alpha release early April" ~ Jason Appleton

     

     

     

     

    The money is not so much of an issue, as everything that is needed to make an MMO in unity can be got for nothng.. but of course you need the skill to do it anda team willing to work for nothing... your are 100% right with the amonut of time tho, but maybe they could get some kind of basic alpha out in 6 months...very basic server connectivity and so on.. but still thats somthing you need to test.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmoski
    Originally posted by asmkm22

    Probably removed the forums because it's not actually a real game in development.  It's just some random guy's pet project with no real chance at going anywhere.

    It's amateur vaporware.

    Yeah, unless a developer has a lot of clout and experience backing them then the term "real development" is opinionated, that's not to say that "pet projects" won't be successful though, some of the best games that push the industry have come from pet projects.

    I can be sympathetic to starting to make a game and then being unable to finish it.

    I'm a lot less sympathetic to taking money from customers with promises to finish the game and then being unable to finish it.  Once you start taking money, you'd better be able to deliver--and if it's not clear whether you can, you shouldn't take their money yet.

    The game that I've been posting screenshots of periodically around here is likely to never be finished.  But the key difference is, I never took anyone's money, whether from investors or customers.  If I cancel the project tomorrow and don't refund any money to anyone, no one is wronged by it.

  • nethervoidnethervoid xanex, CAPosts: 528Member

    Kickstarter is for suckers. lol

    An idiot and his money are easily seperated.

    nethervoid - Est. '97
    [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
    13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  • VengerVenger York, PAPosts: 1,318Member

    The ironic thing about all the hate towards GM (and indie games in general) is we all bitch, moan, and whine about wanting something different.  A game created by gamers for gamers not some corporate suits that don't have a clue what we want.  So we get a indie team like the GM team who are not suits, who are learning some things as they go, and are very passionate about their game.  Learning some things as they go you must assume there will be some mistakes.  Being new and trying to be very open to the community you also must assume they will state some things long before they should.  Then you have passion, passion is a double edged sword.  You have to take the good with the bad.

    Will I get my moneys worth?  Time will tell, but I'd rather spend some money on a gamble then to keep spending money on the same old same old.

  • wowcloneswowclones Los Angeles, CAPosts: 127Member
    Nice move Bill, Jason Appleton is an embarassment to these forums, to Kickstarter and to indie game development. MMORPG didn't deserve to be threatened as you guys were only trying to help promote his game. People troll all games even the best games on the market have trolls, Jason must have been new to the mmo and game scene as it appears it was his first time ever on the internet lol.
  • MaejohlMaejohl LondonPosts: 110Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nethervoid

    Kickstarter is for suckers. lol

    An idiot and his money are easily seperated.

    As is a philanthropist and his money.

    www.luxarcana.org
    Celebrating 10 years of gaming together 2004 - 2014

  • taus01taus01 MunichPosts: 1,352Member
    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    Why did the Greed Monger Forums get removed? Was this a request from Jason Appleton to remove the negative information posted about the game?

    In case this hasn't been answered yet, yes.  He emailed me directly and asked us to remove the negative posts about the game.  He also hinted at taking legal action if we didn't remove the posts of our users, and we decided we didn't need a baseless lawsuit.  

    If you want to blame someone for the removal of the game listing and forums, blame Jason Appleton.  But when someone threatens us with legal action, we can either a.) ignore it or b.) react with what we think is appropriate.  In Greed Monger's case, it's probably just better to igore its existence as a website.  

    I wish the Greed Monger devs well, but I'm not too thrilled with how they handled the negativity our forum users tossed their way.  If they can't take the criticism and claims of trolls, they're in for a rude awakening in this industry.  

    Maybe one day we'll re-add the game to our list, but that depends on whether or not our users are allowed to post about it without the site being under threat of legal recourse.

    I am sure you area aware of the fact that he had no legal grounds to threaten you and this would have never gone to court. In any case, it's sad to see that all this information is gone because people need to know and not invest any more money into this ridiculous project.

     

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • MaejohlMaejohl LondonPosts: 110Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    Why did the Greed Monger Forums get removed? Was this a request from Jason Appleton to remove the negative information posted about the game?

    In case this hasn't been answered yet, yes.  He emailed me directly and asked us to remove the negative posts about the game.  He also hinted at taking legal action if we didn't remove the posts of our users, and we decided we didn't need a baseless lawsuit.  

    If you want to blame someone for the removal of the game listing and forums, blame Jason Appleton.  But when someone threatens us with legal action, we can either a.) ignore it or b.) react with what we think is appropriate.  In Greed Monger's case, it's probably just better to igore its existence as a website.  

    I wish the Greed Monger devs well, but I'm not too thrilled with how they handled the negativity our forum users tossed their way.  If they can't take the criticism and claims of trolls, they're in for a rude awakening in this industry.  

    Maybe one day we'll re-add the game to our list, but that depends on whether or not our users are allowed to post about it without the site being under threat of legal recourse.

    I am sure you area aware of the fact that he had no legal grounds to threaten you and this would have never gone to court. In any case, it's sad to see that all this information is gone because people need to know and not invest any more money into this ridiculous project.

     

    Could you explain why he had no legal grounds? (I'm not challenging - just interested to know from the US perspective).

    www.luxarcana.org
    Celebrating 10 years of gaming together 2004 - 2014

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maejohl
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    Why did the Greed Monger Forums get removed? Was this a request from Jason Appleton to remove the negative information posted about the game?

    In case this hasn't been answered yet, yes.  He emailed me directly and asked us to remove the negative posts about the game.  He also hinted at taking legal action if we didn't remove the posts of our users, and we decided we didn't need a baseless lawsuit.  

    If you want to blame someone for the removal of the game listing and forums, blame Jason Appleton.  But when someone threatens us with legal action, we can either a.) ignore it or b.) react with what we think is appropriate.  In Greed Monger's case, it's probably just better to igore its existence as a website.  

    I wish the Greed Monger devs well, but I'm not too thrilled with how they handled the negativity our forum users tossed their way.  If they can't take the criticism and claims of trolls, they're in for a rude awakening in this industry.  

    Maybe one day we'll re-add the game to our list, but that depends on whether or not our users are allowed to post about it without the site being under threat of legal recourse.

    I am sure you area aware of the fact that he had no legal grounds to threaten you and this would have never gone to court. In any case, it's sad to see that all this information is gone because people need to know and not invest any more money into this ridiculous project.

     

    Could you explain why he had no legal grounds? (I'm not challenging - just interested to know from the US perspective).

    The United States has much stronger freedom of speech protections than most other countries--even most other "Western" countries.  First amendment to the US constitution:

    "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press."

    While courts have made some exceptions for things like death threats or shouting fire in a crowded theater, they're narrower exceptions than most of the world would have.  In particular, advocating repugnant political ideas (e.g., "we should invade country X and murder everyone who lives there") is completely legal--though constitutional protections only prevent the government from taking action, not fellow citizens from shunning you.

    While there are laws against libel and slander, in order to sue someone for libel and win, you have to prove that:

    1)  the claims are false, and

    2)  you were materially harmed by the false claims.

    If the claims are true, or even a matter of opinion rather than fact (e.g., "this game is terrible"), then it's not libel, no matter how much you were harmed by it.  If the claims are complete lies and whoever made them knew it, but you weren't harmed by them, then it's not libel.

    Even if both conditions are provably satisfied, a lawsuit for libel is hardly guaranteed to be successful.  If you're a public figure, then in order to sue for libel and win, there is the added requirement that you have to prove that the person was maliciously trying to harm you with lies.  If the claims are sufficiently ridiculous that no one could plausibly believe them (e.g., John Doe is a Martian who is trying to conquer Earth), then courts may rule that you weren't harmed by them.  If you have a sufficiently bad reputation before the libelous claims (e.g., Paris Hilton), the courts may rule that nothing anyone could say would make your reputation any worse, so you weren't harmed by the lies.

    I'm not aware of any cases where forum operators have been successfully sued for libel on the basis of what random forum members posted.

    However, defending against a lawsuit can be expensive and time-consuming, even if you win.  Some states have anti-SLAPP laws to make it easy to quickly and cheaply get libel lawsuits dismissed if there isn't good reason to believe that the person suing might win, but that only helps so much.

    The owners of this site presumably didn't want the headache of dealing with a lawsuit.  Without some principled reason why a likely-to-be-vaporware game ought to remain listed on this site, it was easier to just take it off the site.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    Wait... Let me get this straight... Some nobody comes out of nowhere with a video he paid someone else to produce and people actually gave him $90k? I guess the old adage "A fool and his money..." rings very true on this one. This should be very interesting to watch unfold over the next year or so when this guy has nothing to show for all of that funding due to his total lack of direction and talent. After reading through the brief history of this development cycle I'm truly amazed anyone gave this guy any funding. Wow... just wow.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • JamesPJamesP Portland, MEPosts: 435Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Wait... Let me get this straight... Some nobody comes out of nowhere with a video he paid someone else to produce and people actually gave him $90k? I guess the old adage "A fool and his money..." rings very true on this one. This should be very interesting to watch unfold over the next year or so when this guy has nothing to show for all of that funding due to his total lack of direction and talent. After reading through the brief history of this development cycle I'm truly amazed anyone gave this guy any funding. Wow... just wow.

     

    Bren

     

    I am the one who created the Demo Scene for the video in our KickStarter and Jason is the one who recorded the video... Last I checked he never paid anyone out side of our team to produce that video and trust me there is no one on the GM team who works closer to Jason then I do. So if I say Jason didn't pay anyone out side of our team to produce that video then that's the complete truth...

    Company Owner
    MMO Interactive
    Greed Monger

  • MaejohlMaejohl LondonPosts: 110Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    ...

    Excellent - thank you, I appreciate the time (and the explanation)!

    www.luxarcana.org
    Celebrating 10 years of gaming together 2004 - 2014

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member
    Originally posted by JamesP
    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Wait... Let me get this straight... Some nobody comes out of nowhere with a video he paid someone else to produce and people actually gave him $90k? I guess the old adage "A fool and his money..." rings very true on this one. This should be very interesting to watch unfold over the next year or so when this guy has nothing to show for all of that funding due to his total lack of direction and talent. After reading through the brief history of this development cycle I'm truly amazed anyone gave this guy any funding. Wow... just wow.

     

    Bren

     

    I am the one who created the Demo Scene for the video in our KickStarter and Jason is the one who recorded the video... Last I checked he never paid anyone out side of our team to produce that video and trust me there is no one on the GM team who works closer to Jason then I do. So if I say Jason didn't pay anyone out side of our team to produce that video then that's the complete truth...

    Well... Maybe I was a bit harsh but let me ask you this... What games have you actually worked on that have been released? If you have any kind of credibility in the RPG or MMO industry than you must have worked on something prior to this. I'm not trying to put you down or anything just if you do have some background it would lend a lot more credibility to what you are saying in this thread and about Greed Monger in general. We already know that Jason is completely new to game development... so what's your background?

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JamesP
    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Wait... Let me get this straight... Some nobody comes out of nowhere with a video he paid someone else to produce and people actually gave him $90k? I guess the old adage "A fool and his money..." rings very true on this one. This should be very interesting to watch unfold over the next year or so when this guy has nothing to show for all of that funding due to his total lack of direction and talent. After reading through the brief history of this development cycle I'm truly amazed anyone gave this guy any funding. Wow... just wow.

     

    Bren

     

    I am the one who created the Demo Scene for the video in our KickStarter and Jason is the one who recorded the video... Last I checked he never paid anyone out side of our team to produce that video and trust me there is no one on the GM team who works closer to Jason then I do. So if I say Jason didn't pay anyone out side of our team to produce that video then that's the complete truth...

    Good luck with your game.  I really do mean that.

    What ultimately matters is whether you can deliver a working game (and whether that game is actually good!), not whether people thought you could ahead of time.

  • rmk70rmk70 Toronto, ONPosts: 397Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    Why did the Greed Monger Forums get removed? Was this a request from Jason Appleton to remove the negative information posted about the game?

    In case this hasn't been answered yet, yes.  He emailed me directly and asked us to remove the negative posts about the game.  He also hinted at taking legal action if we didn't remove the posts of our users, and we decided we didn't need a baseless lawsuit.  

    If you want to blame someone for the removal of the game listing and forums, blame Jason Appleton.  But when someone threatens us with legal action, we can either a.) ignore it or b.) react with what we think is appropriate.  In Greed Monger's case, it's probably just better to igore its existence as a website.  

    I wish the Greed Monger devs well, but I'm not too thrilled with how they handled the negativity our forum users tossed their way.  If they can't take the criticism and claims of trolls, they're in for a rude awakening in this industry.  

    Maybe one day we'll re-add the game to our list, but that depends on whether or not our users are allowed to post about it without the site being under threat of legal recourse.

    Very unfortunate. I was one of the 'fools' who supported the game because I loved the concept and stayed away from the trolling.

     

    After hearing this I'm definitely a big detractor now. Trying to stifle free speech or open criticism? That's as low as it gets. 

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,276Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by JamesP I'm not going to address the things I've read in this thread for reasons I won't go into... All I am going to say though is that inspite of what the thoughts are concerning Greed Monger we ARE moving forward with Development. We will be into Alpha nearly on schedule. We already have people running around with the world. Our Server Side Seamless tech will be online shortly and our Server Cluster continues to expand as needed. Our Team continues to expand which now includes some World Builders who have worked in the industry for a while including on games such as Crysis 1 and 2. Our Q&A Department is up and running and includes 1 Windows Tester, 1 Mac Tester, and Soon a 3rd tester who uses both Windows and Mac so we can ensure equal playability on the range of supported Platforms.    Here's a link to our latest video:
     

    I'm not really going to participate in this sideshow much, but what I want to confirm .. JamesP, is if you were the one that posted this information previously http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5518958#5518958


    JamesP

    I'm sort of confused here.
    In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development, was more for the license then we even managed to get through our KickStarter, or required a Revenue Share to obtain a license for. So another words that piece of technology that we were basing our whole Framework on having fell through. That Combined with Unity's Sneaky tactics of trying to hide the fact that they added some new things into their EULA caused us to loose faith in Unity3D for Greed Monger which meant we had to change engines to continue moving forward.

    Now you guys are seeming to indicate you would rather have had us stick with Unity3D and released a watered down Zone (With Loading Screens) based version of what we wanted to release and were promising to release...

    I just really fail to see the logic in all of that?


     

    My question is (though you aren't answering questions) is the license a problem with Unity still? The seamless world? Are you even using Unity at all after all of their "sneaky tactics" or are you still using the Hero engine?


     

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon
    If you want to make a seamless world and actually have it work right (as opposed to, say, Vanguard), then deciding exactly when to load and unload assets is a very big deal.  That's going to depend very strongly on the details of your particular game.  Relying on licensing some off-the-shelf game engine to do all of the work for you isn't likely to end well.  Even if trying to make a seamless world with an off-the-shelf game engine can be made to work, it's going to put far more restrictions on you than if you went in and made the decisions on how to cover up when you're loading assets yourself.
  • JamesPJamesP Portland, MEPosts: 435Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

     


    Originally posted by JamesP I'm not going to address the things I've read in this thread for reasons I won't go into... All I am going to say though is that inspite of what the thoughts are concerning Greed Monger we ARE moving forward with Development. We will be into Alpha nearly on schedule. We already have people running around with the world. Our Server Side Seamless tech will be online shortly and our Server Cluster continues to expand as needed. Our Team continues to expand which now includes some World Builders who have worked in the industry for a while including on games such as Crysis 1 and 2. Our Q&A Department is up and running and includes 1 Windows Tester, 1 Mac Tester, and Soon a 3rd tester who uses both Windows and Mac so we can ensure equal playability on the range of supported Platforms.    Here's a link to our latest video:
     

     

    I'm not really going to participate in this sideshow much, but what I want to confirm .. JamesP, is if you were the one that posted this information previously http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5518958#5518958

     


    JamesP

     

    I'm sort of confused here.
    In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development, was more for the license then we even managed to get through our KickStarter, or required a Revenue Share to obtain a license for. So another words that piece of technology that we were basing our whole Framework on having fell through. That Combined with Unity's Sneaky tactics of trying to hide the fact that they added some new things into their EULA caused us to loose faith in Unity3D for Greed Monger which meant we had to change engines to continue moving forward.

    Now you guys are seeming to indicate you would rather have had us stick with Unity3D and released a watered down Zone (With Loading Screens) based version of what we wanted to release and were promising to release...

    I just really fail to see the logic in all of that?


     

     

    My question is (though you aren't answering questions) is the license a problem with Unity still? The seamless world? Are you even using Unity at all after all of their "sneaky tactics" or are you still using the Hero engine?


     

    In our announcement released Sunday we announced we had switched back to Unity3D. They have addressed the licensing issues as far as their changes to the EULA not being for MMO Developers. As far as Seamless goes I will be working on setting up our Server side Seamless tech this week. Then Client side we will be using paging for the terrain. For Dynamically placed Objects we will be using a Custom AOI solution to load and unload Objects as the players get with in range of the objects.

    Company Owner
    MMO Interactive
    Greed Monger

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Biskop
    This whole project just screamed "massive failure" from the start.

    Unprofessional conduct by a lead dev is never a good sign, and this guy is just over the top with his inflated ego and personal attacks on critics.

    Add lack of experience, shady business antics and overall lack of direction and credibility, and you've got wholesale disaster.

    People stupid enough to give this guy their money deserve to feel cheated. I wish gamers were less willing to buy into these fake-ass indie "devs" promising to make great sandbox games
    out of nothing. MO, DF, ER, Xsyon, Salem... We really should know better by now.

    But some people are just way too naive and hungry for something new, and willingly throw money at anyone with a "vision".

    Kickstarter has made this tendency even more apparent, but I think a backlash is coming as more and more people feel scammed by fake "devs" promising the moon. Embers of Caerus will probably be the next KS disaster; those guys are also amateurs painting a grand picture of a revolutionary MMO based on nothing but words and concept art, and some people are buying it without asking any questions. It will not end well either.

    I am with you on this, i see a huge "fallout" of failed kickstarter projects in the near future. All these Projects that got funded on a few concept pictures and wild promises. Some of the big names that have recently risen from the grave of old school game developers are no exception to this, they can fail too.

    Not including the ones that are quite obviously scams like the Millionair lady that wants money to send her little daughter to a game developer camp to make an RPG.

     

    No one makes a sandbox MMORPG in less than 6 months with only $90,000

    from: "Unity is cool, how do i import all these assets i bought?" ~ Jason Appleton

    to: "We change Engines twice but are ready with an Alpha release early April" ~ Jason Appleton

     

    Let this be a warning to everyone not to buy into any hype. A lesson can be learned here.

     

     

    For posterity I just want to point out that people are so desperate to hate on certain games that Greed Monger is (was) higher rated than WoW. Just saying, a game that is literally stealing money and doesn't exist has a higher rating than one of the most popular mmo's ever.

    The community should really reassess it's priorities.

  • PrecusorPrecusor PalmaPosts: 4,733Member Uncommon
    90k for nothing? its no wonder why F2p with payto win is getting popular.
  • taus01taus01 MunichPosts: 1,352Member
    Originally posted by Precusor
    90k for nothing? its no wonder why F2p with payto win is getting popular.

    Just look around, every new game sells you Alpha and Beta access to test the game for full price, some even go so far as to add some virtual crap and call it founders edition, then charge you 200, 300 or more. 

    Kickstarter showed us that people are willing to pay for anything that even remotely looks like a new game.

    This is industry has turned from selling games to selling the possibility of a game finished anywhere in the future or never.

    Time to start my own little project with default Untiy assets and a nice little video promising the next UO, SWG or just the magic word : "Sandbox"

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • JogobogosJogobogos Lublin, PAPosts: 171Member Uncommon

    I wasn't really fallowing whole topic but my brain just exploded watching last movie :

    Sorry guys but as you had bought whole assets its just a week of work for someone who don't know Unity to set them into engine. If you know a basics it its just a day of playing with it.

    We were at Kickstarter same time, sadly failed to gain founding.

    Just to look at the bright at the light side of the world in next two days we are releasing pre-alpha version with many MMO systems working (NPC lifetime, PvP and others).

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Gloria-Victis/352162408142252

    Half of a year ago I felt ashamed that we were not pro enough to make people believe in our project. Now I just feel sad for what will people be thinking of croudfounding next months.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    Why did the Greed Monger Forums get removed? Was this a request from Jason Appleton to remove the negative information posted about the game?

    In case this hasn't been answered yet, yes.  He emailed me directly and asked us to remove the negative posts about the game.  He also hinted at taking legal action if we didn't remove the posts of our users, and we decided we didn't need a baseless lawsuit.  

    If you want to blame someone for the removal of the game listing and forums, blame Jason Appleton.  But when someone threatens us with legal action, we can either a.) ignore it or b.) react with what we think is appropriate.  In Greed Monger's case, it's probably just better to igore its existence as a website.  

    I wish the Greed Monger devs well, but I'm not too thrilled with how they handled the negativity our forum users tossed their way.  If they can't take the criticism and claims of trolls, they're in for a rude awakening in this industry.  

    Maybe one day we'll re-add the game to our list, but that depends on whether or not our users are allowed to post about it without the site being under threat of legal recourse.

    My sig picture speaks truth

    image

  • JayarisJayaris InvercargillPosts: 308Member

    To the people linking the Hype Meter Picture, this is an issue with the way the hype meter works. If a game is added to the site and the first group of votes are largely positive then it rockets to the top of the chart (as it has done for dozens of games) after about a few hours Greedmonger slipped off the top five.

     

    Appleton just happened to screenshot it to take advantage of the way it works. 

    Hi

This discussion has been closed.