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There are no raids... can you live with that?

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  • ArzacaneArzacane Dayton, OHPosts: 24Member
    I can deal without the raids. ESO stated from the beginning that they didn't want to be 'every other MMO out there'. They wanted ESO to be like the elder scrolls series. That is a game based on story and exploration. They had their big bosses and good loot, but the emphesis of the games were their story line and explorable world. They will have their realm vs realm and from the sounds of how the classes are going to be, it may be more than just zerging it out.
  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by Cirin
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    The funny thing is when wow dies (I suggest in 10 years). What the hell are those players going to think looking back, they spent 17 years in 1 game at the cost of all other game experiences. I predict real life psychological problems,mark my words.

    That's like saying the guy that's had the same car and loved it for 20 years is going to have psychological problems when it finally breaks down.

     

    No, they'll simply gravitate to another game.

     

    Without raids I'd be amazed if they have a way of consistent growth or longevity with players.  Having no raids also means very limited mechanics.  As a developer the beauty of having 10+ people is you can make the encounters harder because you can factor in more good players to bad players.  With only 4-6 players you have much less room to make hard encounters without alienating groups, things will always be too easy for those with skill and too hard for those without.

    The other beauty is job security for the developers, because this is a model that has 0 persistence if the devs ever stop spoonfeeding content to the clientele.  And it risks falling apart if they even stutter.

    But who, other than Blizzard, can actually keep that up over the long term?

     I will echo what everyone has said previously...WoW has never been a challenge, the real challenge in WoW was finding 20 competant people to fill a 40 man raid so you can fill up the rest of the raid with the regular morons that show up and just faceroll encounters.

    I only ever dabbled in raiding, but for me the real challenge was tolerating being grouped with that many raiders for that long.  Whether they're casual or hardcore, there's something about that demographic that just sets my teeth on edge and makes me wish I could be ganking them instead of grouping with them.

    And I was a pretty obstinate carebear, prior to my exposure to raiders. 

     

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    Yes

    Raids aren't a dealbreaker for me. Don't really have the time for them anymore anyhow.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    If they added raids, I would prefer they waited a few months after release.  Take their time with it, see who their playerbase is and what they want.
  • Monstre0auSMonstre0auS SydneyPosts: 46Member
    Originally posted by sapphen
    If they added raids, I would prefer they waited a few months after release.  Take their time with it, see who their playerbase is and what they want.

    I agree with Sapphen,

     

    If they do add raids to this game, I hope that they take time to ensure that they add something unique and within the design elements that players are after.

    They are making FPV an element in this game, I'd like to see any raiding content that they add actually benefit from that in some degree as well.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by MortisRex

    Really? You've heard that TSW has no raids? I would love to know your source, because they are a liar. I play TSW. I've done the New York raid. They introduced it last year.  Maybe you should come up with an actual game that doesn't have raiding instead of  lying about another game to prove your point.

     

    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/09/04/escape-to-new-york-the-secret-worlds-first-raid/

     

    There's my proof that it does exist. The only question is, are you going to man up and take responsibilty  or are you going to move the goal posts and say because it doesn't meet your arbitrary and convoluted definition of a raid, that you're still right?

    I have completed it too. Calling that a raid is like calling Gw2 zerg events a raid, or Rifts zone events, or even Lfr. You have to practically try to fail it. Sheer number of players does not meet the conventional definition of raid. If that is a raid I guess the "10 man" quests they added to lairs are raids too right?

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    I didn't vote because I'd really have to see how enjoyable the rest of the game is. I just think it's odd that they wouldn't include raids of any sort. I like options and limiting those options in this day and age seems kind of foolish. They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them. Doesn't make much sense .

    This is one of the reasons I voted no. To me this seems like a big mistake to chuck out whats been a major part of MMOing for the past 15 years. I really hope they change their minds on this and not as an after thought with a bunch of 1/2 done raids that are not tripple A quality. You know there will be a bunch of hard core MMOers who will rip the content apart and get to end game and say "There is nothing to do" and quit. A lot of MMOers live for end game content and I have no clue how this game will float with no raids. Maybe as well as GW2?

    Options are a good thing. But, not the option is the problem.. the problem is the reward, which usually is part of that option.

    Would you be happy with Raids without any Reward, and especially no epic gear? If so.. raids would just mean additional work and another options.. but point is, most players, which play raids play them for the fat loot. And with that almost everything from your designed game will be influenced by it.. and then it is not just a option, then it is a gamechanging, gamedefining feature.

    For me personally raids are not really interesting, i am more of a pvp player, and raids were in a lot of games just a pain in the ass for the pvp part of that game. But that is just me. I fully understand that a lot of ppl like to raid, like to collect loot and all the buzz going with it. But there are also a lot of ppl sick of gear grind, and withit raids.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by doodphace

    Just want to point out, the only themepark since WoW to release with a sub, and keep enough subscribers to not warrent going FTP (Rift), has ample endgame/raids....me thinks there is some corralation with having a veriaty of endgame content, and keeping playiers...

     

    LOL this. Even if you dont want to raid its good for the game.

    The trick is getting developers to do it without alienating the rest of the player base by placing end game progression solely through raiding.  What's the point of even having other end game content if the only post-level progression takes place in raids?  We all love to see new content, but playing an RPG means that the progression of your Avatar is a paramount aspect required for leveling and post-leveling content.

    Ya last thing I want is a treadmill. Gear should be equal.

    Ok. but you may be 1 out of 1000. Just do another poll. And ask how many Raiders would raid for hours without any reward or just that reward they could craft solo? I do think not a lot.

    And even more.. no next tier of raiding, because there is no gear progression?

    The problem is.. raiding, tiered content, gear progression dont fit well with other content type like crafting, pvp and other things. And raiding without tiered content and gear progression is not interesting for the greater audience of raiders.

    They will say(and are absolutly right doing so), why should i play that game, raid for hours without any reward, or just a reward i could buy from almost any crafter? I will stay in WoW and raid there, where i will be at least recognised and get my fat loot.

    PvP with crafting and economy play dont fit well with raiding and gear progression. That is a hard lessen learned in a lot of games from the past.

    ESO has choosen the PvP and crafting part and the price is to dismiss raiding.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by doodphace

    Just want to point out, the only themepark since WoW to release with a sub, and keep enough subscribers to not warrent going FTP (Rift), has ample endgame/raids....me thinks there is some corralation with having a veriaty of endgame content, and keeping playiers...

     

    LOL this. Even if you dont want to raid its good for the game.

    The trick is getting developers to do it without alienating the rest of the player base by placing end game progression solely through raiding.  What's the point of even having other end game content if the only post-level progression takes place in raids?  We all love to see new content, but playing an RPG means that the progression of your Avatar is a paramount aspect required for leveling and post-leveling content.

    Ya last thing I want is a treadmill. Gear should be equal.

    Ok. but you may be 1 out of 1000. Just do another poll. And ask how many Raiders would raid for hours without any reward or just that reward they could craft solo? I do think not a lot.

    And even more.. no next tier of raiding, because there is no gear progression?

    The problem is.. raiding, tiered content, gear progression dont fit well with other content type like crafting, pvp and other things. And raiding without tiered content and gear progression is not interesting for the greater audience of raiders.

    They will say(and are absolutly right doing so), why should i play that game, raid for hours without any reward, or just a reward i could buy from almost any crafter? I will stay in WoW and raid there, where i will be at least recognised and get my fat loot.

    PvP with crafting and economy play dont fit well with raiding and gear progression. That is a hard lessen learned in a lot of games from the past.

    ESO has choosen the PvP and crafting part and the price is to dismiss raiding.

    Very simple. You have say 20 items on a char. Give each play type 5 best in slot. So raiding gets 5 items that are best in slot, crafters get 5, explorers get 5 and dungeons get 5 slots that are also best in slot. All play types can have 2nd best in slot. Fair and now a reason for people to do all content or live with 2nd best in slot if they dont want to say raid =-)

    EDIT: Weapons should be best in slot for all play types as well. To make this fair. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • ego13ego13 Reno, NVPosts: 267Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Very simple. You have say 20 items on a char. Give each play type 5 best in slot. So raiding gets 5 items that are best in slot, crafters get 5, explorers get 5 and dungeons get 5 slots that are also best in slot. All play types can have 2nd best in slot. Fair and now a reason for people to do all content or live with 2nd best in slot if they dont want to say raid =-)

    EDIT: Weapons should be best in slot for all play types as well. To make this fair. 

       This would work, however, people would whine.  Everyone thinks their money in a game entitles them to be just as good as everyone else without having to try as hard.  Most, not all, of the time the people that are against raids are either inept players who have had bad experiences with easy raids in the past OR casuals that probably shouldn't really be playing MMOs (which have a high time requirement already).

     

        As far as "not being like other MMOs" and ESO being "true to the world", these types of quotes are asinine.  If the developers are using them as examples of WHY they won't have raids then I truly feel sorry for them.  There were many LARGE SCALE battles in the world.  Armies fight dragons, lich, whatever they needed to.  This is  what raids are about, challenges that encompass more than a mere group.

     

        There will be many parts of the game that will already be inaccessible to "casuals" and the ONLY thing you do by catering to them is water down your game till you lose your true focus.

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

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  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowherePosts: 2,325Member Uncommon

    As long as there is some tangible form of organisation required to get through group encounters. I do mean defined group roles by that, though those could be open for quick and dynamic swapping. Really can't stand any more zerging tbh.

    I would think that raids, especially open world ones, could fit in perfectly with the TES lore and could form an added value though.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • tintilinictintilinic aPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by Wraithone

    So, only the "hard core" players determine if a game is a success? Thats certainly an interesting perspective, but it doesn't seem to match up with the economics involved.  In game after game, after game, it has been demonstrated that Carebears well out number PvP types, let alone the "hard core" type players.

    What is challenging to one player, may be frustrating to another.  The line between challenging and frustrating is a fine one. I have no problem with a challenge (I tend to enjoy them). But I have little time or patience for systems that a frustarating.

    A system can be complex, without being complicated.  The creation of such systems requires experience and wisdom.

    Something rather lacking in all too many people who are making the design decisions (in many cases suits, rather than Dev's).  That is just one, of many reasons why games fail.

    Hardocres definately are not ones determining anything.

    And unfortunately companies have lost the creativity and that spark that makes good games good, most of them are just rehashes on now 10-15 years old games.

    But its getting off topic, no raids are not really necessary for success (or failure).

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member

    Raids are one of the worst game design decisions an MMO can have.  I do not want a gear treadmill to keep me playing your game, I want fun and variety to keep me coming back.  In fact, levels, raids, paid expansions, the entire "best in slot" failure, and classes are some of my most disliked things an MMORPG can have.  They're tired and lazy designs that often eliminate fun in an attempt to grab cash.

    El Psy Congroo

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Raids are one of the worst game design decisions an MMO can have.  I do not want a gear treadmill to keep me playing your game, I want fun and variety to keep me coming back.  In fact, levels, raids, paid expansions, the entire "best in slot" failure, and classes are some of my most disliked things an MMORPG can have.  They're tired and lazy designs that often eliminate fun in an attempt to grab cash.

    Koster mostly disagree's with you. http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/08/28/do-classes-suck/

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Raids are one of the worst game design decisions an MMO can have.  I do not want a gear treadmill to keep me playing your game, I want fun and variety to keep me coming back.  In fact, levels, raids, paid expansions, the entire "best in slot" failure, and classes are some of my most disliked things an MMORPG can have.  They're tired and lazy designs that often eliminate fun in an attempt to grab cash.

    Koster mostly disagree's with you. http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/08/28/do-classes-suck/

    I'd prefer a more organic approach to character growth and advancement, instead of having some huge musclebound character being unable to ever lift a sword because of a button pushed in character creation.  It's actually extremely silly when you think about it.

    El Psy Congroo

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    I'd prefer a more organic approach to character growth and advancement, instead of having some huge musclebound character being unable to ever lift a sword because of a button pushed in character creation.  It's actually extremely silly when you think about it.

    That depends entirely on the nature and design of the game itself. Its rather clear that you lean toward the "virtual world" end of the spectrum, which is fine if that is your choice, but calling all games garbage that do not appeal to your demographic is insulting. I am more than willing to sacrifice the muscle bound character not being able to weild a sword for things like solid balance. I prefer a solid competitive game over a virtual world. Unfortunately for you, the market seems to agree with me.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Raids are one of the worst game design decisions an MMO can have.  I do not want a gear treadmill to keep me playing your game, I want fun and variety to keep me coming back.  In fact, levels, raids, paid expansions, the entire "best in slot" failure, and classes are some of my most disliked things an MMORPG can have.  They're tired and lazy designs that often eliminate fun in an attempt to grab cash.

    Raids =/= gear treadmill. You can have raids and not make it a gear treadmill.

    image
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  • observerobserver Houston, TXPosts: 3,006Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sapphen
    If they added raids, I would prefer they waited a few months after release.  Take their time with it, see who their playerbase is and what they want.

    That would be a terrible way to do this.  It should be implemented from the beginning, or never put in, or else it risks alienating a target playerbase, that will

    A.) never try their game

    B.) will move on and never look back

     

  • NeherunNeherun St. MichelPosts: 278Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Raids are one of the worst game design decisions an MMO can have.  I do not want a gear treadmill to keep me playing your game, I want fun and variety to keep me coming back.  In fact, levels, raids, paid expansions, the entire "best in slot" failure, and classes are some of my most disliked things an MMORPG can have.  They're tired and lazy designs that often eliminate fun in an attempt to grab cash.

    Raids =/= gear treadmill. You can have raids and not make it a gear treadmill.

    And how many would do raids if gear was subpar to say crafted gear?

     

    Not even half of them, they'd sit outside the dungeon whining on the forums that the PvE raided gear requires buffs, since it should be the best-in-slot attained gear (Don't even try to argue against this, every single game had their fair share of this bullshit).

     

    That's why TESO cannot go to regular raiding route, as they want not to force people to raid treadmill for competitive gear.

     

    image

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    I'd prefer a more organic approach to character growth and advancement, instead of having some huge musclebound character being unable to ever lift a sword because of a button pushed in character creation.  It's actually extremely silly when you think about it.

    That depends entirely on the nature and design of the game itself. Its rather clear that you lean toward the "virtual world" end of the spectrum, which is fine if that is your choice, but calling all games garbage that do not appeal to your demographic is insulting. I am more than willing to sacrifice the muscle bound character not being able to weild a sword for things like solid balance. I prefer a solid competitive game over a virtual world. Unfortunately for you, the market seems to agree with me.

    I wasn't aware that I called all those games garbage, and I had no idea I was speaking for a demographic.  I thought I made it fairly clear that it was my own personal desires and opinions I was expressing.  I have plenty of games to play regardless.  I do find it odd you feel a game would be hard to balance unless they have the age old class mechanics.

     

    So I guess the only thing I find reasonable in your reply is that the games do indeed need to be based around a classless system in order for it to work well.  That's kind of a no brainer though.

     

    Sorry for insulting you by saying things that I didn't say.  I'll try not to say things that I don't say and wont' say in the future, or something.  Whatever you need.

    El Psy Congroo

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Raids are one of the worst game design decisions an MMO can have.  I do not want a gear treadmill to keep me playing your game, I want fun and variety to keep me coming back.  In fact, levels, raids, paid expansions, the entire "best in slot" failure, and classes are some of my most disliked things an MMORPG can have.  They're tired and lazy designs that often eliminate fun in an attempt to grab cash.

    Raids =/= gear treadmill. You can have raids and not make it a gear treadmill.

    You can try, at least. 

    But most of the raiders won't come if you do that.  And if nobody's doing the raids that are there... do you really have raids at all?  Or is it just dormant code....

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Raids are one of the worst game design decisions an MMO can have.  I do not want a gear treadmill to keep me playing your game, I want fun and variety to keep me coming back.  In fact, levels, raids, paid expansions, the entire "best in slot" failure, and classes are some of my most disliked things an MMORPG can have.  They're tired and lazy designs that often eliminate fun in an attempt to grab cash.

    Raids =/= gear treadmill. You can have raids and not make it a gear treadmill.

    You can try, at least. 

    But most of the raiders won't come if you do that.  And if nobody's doing the raids that are there... do you really have raids at all?  Or is it just dormant code....

    Look at previous raids in established MMOs.  An expansion comes out with a higher level cap, and new dungeons to raid.  Are people flocking to the old original raids?  No, because the gear there is now subpar.  The entire reason for repeating them is lost.  So a raid without a gear incentive is pretty much laughable.  I mean, sure it's possible to have one.  Just an extremely poor use of development time.

    El Psy Congroo

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by sapphen
    If they added raids, I would prefer they waited a few months after release.  Take their time with it, see who their playerbase is and what they want.

    That would be a terrible way to do this.  It should be implemented from the beginning, or never put in, or else it risks alienating a target playerbase, that will

    A.) never try their game

    B.) will move on and never look back

    If the game had old-school time-to-levels, it wouldn't really matter:  it would take at least 3-6 months before even the hardcores were ready for the 'end game content.'  (Not that this would necessarily stop them from bitching about it not being there from the start, but still...)

    Unfortunately, it won't.  The current generation talks about taking just over a month to level-cap in (vanilla) WoW as though that was a long time...

  • SentnlSentnl SydneyPosts: 73Member
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by sapphen
    If they added raids, I would prefer they waited a few months after release.  Take their time with it, see who their playerbase is and what they want.

    That would be a terrible way to do this.  It should be implemented from the beginning, or never put in, or else it risks alienating a target playerbase, that will

    A.) never try their game

    B.) will move on and never look back

    If the game had old-school time-to-levels, it wouldn't really matter:  it would take at least 3-6 months before even the hardcores were ready for the 'end game content.'  (Not that this would necessarily stop them from bitching about it not being there from the start, but still...)

    Unfortunately, it won't.  The current generation talks about taking just over a month to level-cap in (vanilla) WoW as though that was a long time...

    Even vanilla wow did it right though.

    There was a fun levelling experience with open world pvp, and then end game was going after Onyxia 8 hours a day in greens and a few blues. Then Getting people attuned to MC, which was beyond ridiculous for the guilds who stepped into it early. the days when T1 still had placeholder graphics.

    It worked, it was stupid hard... then slowly and then quickly, the game became next level retard easy.

    ~~

    You don't need long dungeons with trash.

    A game can get away with only having complex, super hard boss mobs.

    Throw a Vaelastrasz difficulty boss into Cryodiil somewhere in the open world, a Krayt dragon type mob. Something with crazy HP, difficult mechanics, something that will wipe you if you dont pay attention to every detail.

    A boss that wont be killed for several months...

    I sometimes play under the alias "Exposed". Don't tell anybody.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sentnl
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by sapphen
    If they added raids, I would prefer they waited a few months after release.  Take their time with it, see who their playerbase is and what they want.

    That would be a terrible way to do this.  It should be implemented from the beginning, or never put in, or else it risks alienating a target playerbase, that will

    A.) never try their game

    B.) will move on and never look back

    If the game had old-school time-to-levels, it wouldn't really matter:  it would take at least 3-6 months before even the hardcores were ready for the 'end game content.'  (Not that this would necessarily stop them from bitching about it not being there from the start, but still...)

    Unfortunately, it won't.  The current generation talks about taking just over a month to level-cap in (vanilla) WoW as though that was a long time...

    Even vanilla wow did it right though.

    There was a fun levelling experience with open world pvp, and then end game was going after Onyxia 8 hours a day in greens and a few blues. Then Getting people attuned to MC, which was beyond ridiculous for the guilds who stepped into it early. the days when T1 still had placeholder graphics.

    It worked, it was stupid hard... then slowly and then quickly, the game became next level retard easy.

    ~~

    You don't need long dungeons with trash.

    A game can get away with only having complex, super hard boss mobs.

    Throw a Vaelastrasz difficulty boss into Cryodiil somewhere in the open world, a Krayt dragon type mob. Something with crazy HP, difficult mechanics, something that will wipe you if you dont pay attention to every detail.

    A boss that wont be killed for several months...

    I think that kinda content is long past our gaming days. People used to live to game and forget about real life. People can only do that for so long.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


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