Originally posted by ragz45 Lets be honest, you guys that are crying are only crying because you don't have the disposable income to spend $180 or more on a founders package. I don't look at it as paying for alpha/beta, I look at it as putting my support (and money) behind a man whom I've been a fan of for years. If i get a alpha/beta invite for doing so, then great! If not, I will still support him.
I agree, and it's the entitlement generation mentality we have these days.
it has absolutely nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with "show me your vision, your working prototype" before money is commited. Sorry but not everyone is a fool and gives money away to people who write "MMORPG with FFA PVP" on a whiteboard with a marker. Also, MJ has stated he will put in 2 mil if the game gets enough KS funding?? Thats not how it works. YOU (the devs or publishers) put money in first and develop a working prototype (Alpha) Then you can ask for KS money to finish it.
Originally posted by osiriszoran Originally posted by Tayah Originally posted by ragz45 Lets be honest, you guys that are crying are only crying because you don't have the disposable income to spend $180 or more on a founders package. I don't look at it as paying for alpha/beta, I look at it as putting my support (and money) behind a man whom I've been a fan of for years. If i get a alpha/beta invite for doing so, then great! If not, I will still support him.
I agree, and it's the entitlement generation mentality we have these days.
it has absolutely nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with "show me your vision, your working prototype" before money is commited. Sorry but not everyone is a fool and gives money away to people who write "MMORPG with FFA PVP" on a whiteboard with a marker. Also, MJ has stated he will put in 2 mil if the game gets enough KS funding?? Thats not how it works. YOU (the devs or publishers) put money in first and develop a working prototype (Alpha) Then you can ask for KS money to finish it.
Originally posted by Squeak69 honestly i keep waiting for them to take the money and run more then anything but me, but i suspect most things to be scams unless proved otherwise.
Why would Mark Jacobs and Andrew Meggs ruin their careers for a small amount (2.5 million) in funds? That doesn't even make sense. Granted it's a lot of money to most people, but it's also completely relative to where someone stands in their career.
My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.
Originally posted by Squeak69 honestly i keep waiting for them to take the money and run more then anything but me, but i suspect most things to be scams unless proved otherwise.
Why would Mark Jacobs and Andrew Meggs ruin their careers for a small amount 2.5 million in funds? That doesn't even make sense. Granted it's a lot of money to most people, but it's also completely relative to where someone stands in their career.
I think that 'author' Tracy Hickman is the mastermind behind the whole scam.
Originally posted by ragz45 Lets be honest, you guys that are crying are only crying because you don't have the disposable income to spend $180 or more on a founders package. I don't look at it as paying for alpha/beta, I look at it as putting my support (and money) behind a man whom I've been a fan of for years. If i get a alpha/beta invite for doing so, then great! If not, I will still support him.
I agree, and it's the entitlement generation mentality we have these days.
it has absolutely nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with "show me your vision, your working prototype" before money is commited. Sorry but not everyone is a fool and gives money away to people who write "MMORPG with FFA PVP" on a whiteboard with a marker. Also, MJ has stated he will put in 2 mil if the game gets enough KS funding?? Thats not how it works. YOU (the devs or publishers) put money in first and develop a working prototype (Alpha) Then you can ask for KS money to finish it.
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.
Wouldnt that be a KickFinisher than?
:-)
KS should just change it's name to Florida Swampland, Inc.
Originally posted by ragz45 Lets be honest, you guys that are crying are only crying because you don't have the disposable income to spend $180 or more on a founders package. I don't look at it as paying for alpha/beta, I look at it as putting my support (and money) behind a man whom I've been a fan of for years. If i get a alpha/beta invite for doing so, then great! If not, I will still support him.
Please lots of folks have disposable income i know i do but i am just not going to waste it on game that might flop anyway.
But each to their own its your money and i do look at it as you are paying for alpha/beta i will just spend my money better.
I guess if people are willing to pay for it, charge em. But damn, this kickstarter is focusing on it like its such a privilege to play an unfinished mmo.
Am cool with rewards tiers, I guess I'm just disgusted with how mmos and beta tests have turned out. Used to be something you'd want to invite experienced users to participate in and you would thank them for it. Now you sell it and the testers thank you for it.
Meh.
I can see your point. Its a good thing or a bad thing. I don't like it, but on the flip side lets ask what if sigil did this for vanguard. Dont you think it would of turned out to be a better game then it was because of lack of funding.
Originally posted by OgreRaper I think it's a good thing. You know people who help fund a project are going to actually care about how it turns out, and give the best feedback and bug reporting. Rather than inviting random people who sign up for every alpha/beta test they can.
The thing about Kickstarter is that you are actually donating to fund the project, not paying for anything at all. The rewards are extra incentives, icing on the cake if you will, for those who choose to donate.
If people see getting into beta as a good reward for donating to the project, then I guess that amount to their personal preferences. Personally, I'll never beta test a game ever again. I've found that beta testing has ruined MMOs for me. Invariably they'll do something awesome in the beta test that they can't replicate in the actual release, and that's just a disappointment.
I think its a good idea myself, considering its a pretty small company, and that they are trying to create a game that many players have been begging for for literally years.
Look at all the petitions, and all the forums posts all over the internet begging for DAoC2.
I'm guessing EA, or whoever controlls Mythic these days doesn't want to fund DAoC 2, or they want to turn it into a WoW 2. So on the bright side we're getting a man in charge that isn't going to change his vision for a bunch of corporate guys, who probably don't even play MMORPG's in the first place, all they care about is the $ they can get form it.
I'm very happy to fund the kickstarter. MMORPG's have become stale WoW clones, and we need something different. I would fund this game without even getting a beta invite almost, no different than preordering at gamestop, just this way you get into the beta and get some bonuses, like beta keys for your friends and such.
I myself have been guilty of preordering games at gamestop just for the beta, such as guild wars 2, then cancelling my preorder when I see how much I don't like it, but I am sure this game will not be like that at all.
Originally posted by OgreRaper I think it's a good thing. You know People who help fund a project are going to actually care about how it turns out. Rather than inviting random people who sign up for every alpha/beta test they can.
So why not invite long time DAOC players to be testers of the new game in the same franchise?
Oh, that's right, money.
Maybe because it's not the same franchise?
CU is NOT DAoC 2.
Also, Mark said you can be invited to internal testing without giving a single cent.
Reading the above has increased my sceptism, but it won't decrease my donated ammount....
Without a publisher it means all of us, on forums now or over the next three years, are writing things that will be read (they at least pretend to need YOU), and even though i'm sure the main concepts of the game are already set in stone the mass input from the community will help shape the game, how many games have had this sort dicussion through early stages?, and after KICKSTARTER how many games can boast such a strange public following and investment (personal of $$ wise) so long before production? It's a new paradigm...
Live in hope, that said don't donate what you can't afford to and you won't be let down.
Here's the good part: no one has to support the kickstarter if they don't want to. One can merely buy the game once it's released (or not.) This is not a compulsory expenditure.
This a very first-world complaint. No one is asking anyone who doesn't agree with the model to participate. Hell, Mark Jacobs is actively telling people that this isn't for everyone.
So I am wondering where the hate is coming from. In case anyone is wondering, here are a few key points:
This is a game for fans of the genre who want a hardcore mmorpg free from publisher constraints. If you don't think it should be backed, don't back it. We will.
This is a game a lot of us are excited about because of the features espoused in the Foundational Principles, the developer involved, and our desire for a hardcore sandbox RvR game. If you don't like the model, don't back it. Easy.
Some of us want to believe that there are developers that share our love for the genre and want to make a game that reflects that. We are willing to invest to help that dream come true. You don't have to. We will see you after release.
As to a paid beta: you get lots of goodies (the game included) to go along with it. I really don't get the rampant trolling going on with this kickstarter. It's quite liberal with rewards, and games have changed since the good ole days. Also, half the people who beta test are just there to play the game early, and not to bug test. They SHOULD bloody well be paying. The fact that you are gettting a copy of the game with GOODIES for the price of admittance renders this whole argument null and void.
Easy solution: ignore it. We will be fine. Promise. See you after release!
Why do you care what anyone else does with their money?
I post because I think crowd funding is interesting. It has a strange psycological pull for many people. It allows them to feel like they're part of something. It makes them feel like their input is valuable. But the reality is that the developers and the designers are going to do what they feel is correct. I suppose that's the main thing. There is a wide gap between what is actually happening and what the person thinks is happening.
I find it especially strange when a developer or designer goes to various forums expressing that they want public feedback. I see that as an inexpensive way to market your product. In those threads there will be a hundred ideas that never get considered. All you have to do is hold up the appearance that you are listening every once in a while and people will near worship your every word. It helps create a buzz.
Why do you care that people find crowdfunding a bit off-putting? Why is the subject off the table to discuss in a thread about an MMORPG that is being crowdfunded - like - tomorrow. People will contribute and not contribute. I doubt anything that is actually said in these forums is going to influence someone incredibly. People that were planning to donate are still going to donate and people that were not still won't.
So is it just that you don't like hearing the reasoning behind why crowdfunding is wierd to some of us? Does it bother you to read it? Should these things not be discussed unless they are discussed with praise?
the whole exercise stinks of marketing glam. mark jacobs using his name and fast talking skills to scam off a whole lot of rich kids
i wud much prefer to put the money towards devs who are committed to less glam and glitz and more hard technical facts on what mkes a good game. 99% of what mark jacobs is talking about is non-essential to a great RvR PvP game, and this to me indicates he is saying all of it just to suck more money in.
--- i guess im just a bit worried about these kinds of donation drives. what kind of assurance do we have that the dev will follow our requests? what is to stop him running off with the money and doing someting complete different? why shouldn't we opt for a more rigorous and readily available legal structure where we can have greater assurance? i feel these are important and relevant questions.
belatucrados -- i think it is good that such structures have worke din the past. but i suspect.. i suspect they are vulnerable to diifficulties and so are not durable vehicles for future ventures. Given many are so enthusiastic, i guess i can only encourage them for now.
tom_gore - i think iu r right. when MJ puts up a more concrete proposal i will make sure to take a 2nd and closer look. i feel he has ability, i too wud like to see a great successor in RvR pvp.
Posts like yours...no problem. The whining/trolls, no thanks. (edit: see post above for example, lol)
MJ has always had trolls, and ignoring them is key.
And while most of what you said is true, I've been a part of many MJ-sponsored betas, and if change needs to be made, and can be reasonably done...you'd be surprised the things that can be accomplished.
Things didn't turn out all that well in the end, but they even made a BIG turnaround in WAR beta based on beta feedback.
the whole exercise stinks of marketing glam. mark jacobs using his name and fast talking skills to scam off a whole lot of rich kids
i wud much prefer to put the money towards devs who are committed to less glam and glitz and more hard technical facts on what mkes a good game. 99% of what mark jacobs is talking about is non-essential to a great RvR PvP game, and this to me indicates he is saying all of it just to suck more money in.
I think MJ has a lot of good ideas. Unfortunately it seems they have jack to show about this project at this point. Execution is completely unknown as of yet.
That's the reason I'm not putting my money down unless they have something to show when the KS launches.
the whole exercise stinks of marketing glam. mark jacobs using his name and fast talking skills to scam off a whole lot of rich kids
i wud much prefer to put the money towards devs who are committed to less glam and glitz and more hard technical facts on what mkes a good game. 99% of what mark jacobs is talking about is non-essential to a great RvR PvP game, and this to me indicates he is saying all of it just to suck more money in.
I think MJ has a lot of good ideas. Unfortunately it seems they have jack to show about this project at this point. Execution is completely unknown as of yet.
That's the reason I'm not putting my money down unless they have something to show when the KS launches.
Well I think they did do a small tech demo (we'll know in ~3 hours), I doubt much of anything is ready at this point. This is very early in the project.
One of the most successful gaming(and overall) kickstarters is Project Eternity from Obsidian. Their KS video is basically some concept art and some devs talking. But they raised almost 4mil so far.
I think that's what most people are using the $25 tier as. "Hey, I'll throw $25 in, get into a late beta and see if I like it" - I know several people doing that. (Of course, I know just as many doing the $250 tier, so...)
I think the thing is that if you are interested enough in MMOs to start browsing these forums for info, $25 isn't a lot to put towards that IF you like what they are saying.
Kickstarter isn't about building a prototype and then "getting the rest" - some projects do happen that way, but it's not as common as people are implying. At least not in the gaming category.
I guess if people are willing to pay for it, charge em. But damn, this kickstarter is focusing on it like its such a privilege to play an unfinished mmo.
Am cool with rewards tiers, I guess I'm just disgusted with how mmos and beta tests have turned out. Used to be something you'd want to invite experienced users to participate in and you would thank them for it. Now you sell it and the testers thank you for it.
Meh.
That's why I don't beta test anymore. I may pay money if I desire the early access, bonuses and whatever else. But I would not bother to report a single bug as a paying customer. No way I'll give my money to a company so I can than work for them for free!!
If they paid me to test than I'd be their best beta tester, and for free access I'd be a good beta tester.
I guess if people are willing to pay for it, charge em. But damn, this kickstarter is focusing on it like its such a privilege to play an unfinished mmo.
Am cool with rewards tiers, I guess I'm just disgusted with how mmos and beta tests have turned out. Used to be something you'd want to invite experienced users to participate in and you would thank them for it. Now you sell it and the testers thank you for it.
Meh.
well its a good way to get people interested in the game and maybe pony up a few bucks... at the end of the day they are not going to force you to pay its totally up to you, and hell if they can get people to test a game then all the better i dont blame them one bit...
Comments
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.
I agree, and it's the entitlement generation mentality we have these days.
it has absolutely nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with "show me your vision, your working prototype" before money is commited. Sorry but not everyone is a fool and gives money away to people who write "MMORPG with FFA PVP" on a whiteboard with a marker. Also, MJ has stated he will put in 2 mil if the game gets enough KS funding?? Thats not how it works. YOU (the devs or publishers) put money in first and develop a working prototype (Alpha) Then you can ask for KS money to finish it.
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.
Wouldnt that be a KickFinisher than?F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Why would Mark Jacobs and Andrew Meggs ruin their careers for a small amount (2.5 million) in funds? That doesn't even make sense. Granted it's a lot of money to most people, but it's also completely relative to where someone stands in their career.
I think that 'author' Tracy Hickman is the mastermind behind the whole scam.
:-)
KS should just change it's name to Florida Swampland, Inc.
Please lots of folks have disposable income i know i do but i am just not going to waste it on game that might flop anyway.
But each to their own its your money and i do look at it as you are paying for alpha/beta i will just spend my money better.
Its just a money grab is how i look at it.
I can see your point. Its a good thing or a bad thing. I don't like it, but on the flip side lets ask what if sigil did this for vanguard. Dont you think it would of turned out to be a better game then it was because of lack of funding.
This. Goblet raised to you Sir!
The thing about Kickstarter is that you are actually donating to fund the project, not paying for anything at all. The rewards are extra incentives, icing on the cake if you will, for those who choose to donate.
If people see getting into beta as a good reward for donating to the project, then I guess that amount to their personal preferences. Personally, I'll never beta test a game ever again. I've found that beta testing has ruined MMOs for me. Invariably they'll do something awesome in the beta test that they can't replicate in the actual release, and that's just a disappointment.
I think its a good idea myself, considering its a pretty small company, and that they are trying to create a game that many players have been begging for for literally years.
Look at all the petitions, and all the forums posts all over the internet begging for DAoC2.
I'm guessing EA, or whoever controlls Mythic these days doesn't want to fund DAoC 2, or they want to turn it into a WoW 2. So on the bright side we're getting a man in charge that isn't going to change his vision for a bunch of corporate guys, who probably don't even play MMORPG's in the first place, all they care about is the $ they can get form it.
I'm very happy to fund the kickstarter. MMORPG's have become stale WoW clones, and we need something different. I would fund this game without even getting a beta invite almost, no different than preordering at gamestop, just this way you get into the beta and get some bonuses, like beta keys for your friends and such.
I myself have been guilty of preordering games at gamestop just for the beta, such as guild wars 2, then cancelling my preorder when I see how much I don't like it, but I am sure this game will not be like that at all.
Maybe because it's not the same franchise?
CU is NOT DAoC 2.
Also, Mark said you can be invited to internal testing without giving a single cent.
Reading the above has increased my sceptism, but it won't decrease my donated ammount....
Without a publisher it means all of us, on forums now or over the next three years, are writing things that will be read (they at least pretend to need YOU), and even though i'm sure the main concepts of the game are already set in stone the mass input from the community will help shape the game, how many games have had this sort dicussion through early stages?, and after KICKSTARTER how many games can boast such a strange public following and investment (personal of $$ wise) so long before production? It's a new paradigm...
Live in hope, that said don't donate what you can't afford to and you won't be let down.
/anon
This a very first-world complaint. No one is asking anyone who doesn't agree with the model to participate. Hell, Mark Jacobs is actively telling people that this isn't for everyone.
So I am wondering where the hate is coming from. In case anyone is wondering, here are a few key points:
This is a game for fans of the genre who want a hardcore mmorpg free from publisher constraints. If you don't think it should be backed, don't back it. We will.
This is a game a lot of us are excited about because of the features espoused in the Foundational Principles, the developer involved, and our desire for a hardcore sandbox RvR game. If you don't like the model, don't back it. Easy.
Some of us want to believe that there are developers that share our love for the genre and want to make a game that reflects that. We are willing to invest to help that dream come true. You don't have to. We will see you after release.
As to a paid beta: you get lots of goodies (the game included) to go along with it. I really don't get the rampant trolling going on with this kickstarter. It's quite liberal with rewards, and games have changed since the good ole days. Also, half the people who beta test are just there to play the game early, and not to bug test. They SHOULD bloody well be paying. The fact that you are gettting a copy of the game with GOODIES for the price of admittance renders this whole argument null and void.
Easy solution: ignore it. We will be fine. Promise. See you after release!
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
If you don't want to contribute - don't.
Just please apply the same to your forum posting
Why do you care what anyone else does with their money?
Welcome to the 21st century.
I post because I think crowd funding is interesting. It has a strange psycological pull for many people. It allows them to feel like they're part of something. It makes them feel like their input is valuable. But the reality is that the developers and the designers are going to do what they feel is correct. I suppose that's the main thing. There is a wide gap between what is actually happening and what the person thinks is happening.
I find it especially strange when a developer or designer goes to various forums expressing that they want public feedback. I see that as an inexpensive way to market your product. In those threads there will be a hundred ideas that never get considered. All you have to do is hold up the appearance that you are listening every once in a while and people will near worship your every word. It helps create a buzz.
Why do you care that people find crowdfunding a bit off-putting? Why is the subject off the table to discuss in a thread about an MMORPG that is being crowdfunded - like - tomorrow. People will contribute and not contribute. I doubt anything that is actually said in these forums is going to influence someone incredibly. People that were planning to donate are still going to donate and people that were not still won't.
So is it just that you don't like hearing the reasoning behind why crowdfunding is wierd to some of us? Does it bother you to read it? Should these things not be discussed unless they are discussed with praise?
the whole exercise stinks of marketing glam. mark jacobs using his name and fast talking skills to scam off a whole lot of rich kids
i wud much prefer to put the money towards devs who are committed to less glam and glitz and more hard technical facts on what mkes a good game. 99% of what mark jacobs is talking about is non-essential to a great RvR PvP game, and this to me indicates he is saying all of it just to suck more money in.
--- i guess im just a bit worried about these kinds of donation drives. what kind of assurance do we have that the dev will follow our requests? what is to stop him running off with the money and doing someting complete different? why shouldn't we opt for a more rigorous and readily available legal structure where we can have greater assurance? i feel these are important and relevant questions.
belatucrados -- i think it is good that such structures have worke din the past. but i suspect.. i suspect they are vulnerable to diifficulties and so are not durable vehicles for future ventures. Given many are so enthusiastic, i guess i can only encourage them for now.
tom_gore - i think iu r right. when MJ puts up a more concrete proposal i will make sure to take a 2nd and closer look. i feel he has ability, i too wud like to see a great successor in RvR pvp.
Posts like yours...no problem. The whining/trolls, no thanks. (edit: see post above for example, lol)
MJ has always had trolls, and ignoring them is key.
And while most of what you said is true, I've been a part of many MJ-sponsored betas, and if change needs to be made, and can be reasonably done...you'd be surprised the things that can be accomplished.
Things didn't turn out all that well in the end, but they even made a BIG turnaround in WAR beta based on beta feedback.
I think MJ has a lot of good ideas. Unfortunately it seems they have jack to show about this project at this point. Execution is completely unknown as of yet.
That's the reason I'm not putting my money down unless they have something to show when the KS launches.
Well I think they did do a small tech demo (we'll know in ~3 hours), I doubt much of anything is ready at this point. This is very early in the project.
One of the most successful gaming(and overall) kickstarters is Project Eternity from Obsidian. Their KS video is basically some concept art and some devs talking. But they raised almost 4mil so far.
I think that's what most people are using the $25 tier as. "Hey, I'll throw $25 in, get into a late beta and see if I like it" - I know several people doing that. (Of course, I know just as many doing the $250 tier, so...)
I think the thing is that if you are interested enough in MMOs to start browsing these forums for info, $25 isn't a lot to put towards that IF you like what they are saying.
Kickstarter isn't about building a prototype and then "getting the rest" - some projects do happen that way, but it's not as common as people are implying. At least not in the gaming category.
That's why I don't beta test anymore. I may pay money if I desire the early access, bonuses and whatever else. But I would not bother to report a single bug as a paying customer. No way I'll give my money to a company so I can than work for them for free!!
If they paid me to test than I'd be their best beta tester, and for free access I'd be a good beta tester.
Kickstarter's are pure evil.
But people don't have to give free money away it's up to them so meh.
well its a good way to get people interested in the game and maybe pony up a few bucks... at the end of the day they are not going to force you to pay its totally up to you, and hell if they can get people to test a game then all the better i dont blame them one bit...