ARR is a WoW clone just as much as any MMO from EQ (yes, I went there) to present. EQ and WoW made many features of the MMO industry not only standard, but expected. If your game didn't have certain things, people would just leave for the games that did have those things.
WoW took ideas that its creators liked from other MMOs (EQ, UO, etc), streamlined them, simplified them and made them more palatable to a mainstream audience. In doing so, they created their own new "standard" of MMOs.
No one could honestly call any of the MMOs WoW's popularity has spawned "EQ Clones".
ARR is much closer to WoW than WoW has ever been to EQ.
Look, I realize people are trying their hardest to make ARR sound like it's actually "its own thing" and not a WoW clone at all. But really, again... it's come from Yoshida himself. He's stated, a number of times, that WoW is his main basis for the redesign of ARR. It's the main template ARR's redesign was based on. He's stated flat out that he wants to take WoW and turn it into a FF game. And so on. There's no way to spin or misinterpret that. He's been very clear about his intentions for it.
So to cherry pick details and just ignore the rest just to try and deny ARR isn't another WoW clone really just makes anyone doing it look completely silly. It's like standing in the ocean, soaked head to toe, and insisting that water isn't actually wet.
i think they would profit more by turning over ffxi with the engine used for ff14 arr, revamping it so to speak (& also reverting it back to older versions i forget which)
Well the invested a lot and got little in return ,so ya expected.IMO they made a really dumb purchase acquiring the Tomb Raider Ip.IMO that has sort of died off,not something i would invest in.it's sort of like investing in the bottle opener,looks unique for a little while,then nobody buys it any more.
So investing a ton on the game engine and losing money from FFXIV and spending a ton to get Tomb Raider,ya they asked for it.
Also companmies tend to move profit loss to various quarters,you never really know what is going on from one quarter to the next.
I am not making this up becuase i am a HUGE FF fan,however i truly believe their GREED got the best of them.
They tried to take advantage of a very lenient fan base and it has hit them in the face.
I have been there from the start and saw every single phase of the demise.
It started with the Wings of Goddess expansion,a VERY lazy rushed out xpansion.Things kept getting worse,it was like they were just tossing stuff out for sale to fund other projects and the new game engine.I thought FFX was really good but after that the games started looking cheaper and again rushed out for even the consoles.
OK players keep paying,at least some of them.However players want to see some upgrades,Square claims it can't be done effectively.So they set out to create FFXIV,figuring give the player base some better graphics a rushed product and get rich off it.
I knew it was a flawed game from the whole time i watched it unfold,i did not like anything they were doing and in the end,they never listened and it flopped.So what do they do???They make several super cheap xpacs and divide them up into three parts to triple the profits.The Shantotto xpacs were incredibly cheap,al lof them together wern't worth one xpac.
Then Abyssea man o man.A proven FLOP idea in Dynamis was relived with Abyssea an identical concept but outdoors instead of instances.Once again they divided Abyssea into three parts to triple the profits.That is EXTREMELY lame to disrespect your player base like that.Now they have lost a lot of players and a lot of respect.
I see Square struggling a lot in the future,proof is in myself.This time i have decided to not buy the xpac,i just can't trust them anymore.Actually i never bought the Abyssea either until it went on sale for all three.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I wonder if this will have any impact on our MMO, or what the future is for SE in general... I would hate for EA or some Korean F2P giant monstrosity step in and get involved.
This is amazing news, finally gamers are starting to punish companies for making terrible games despite the big name. Doesn't bode well for FFXIV reborn though since I doubt the games budget is anywhere near what it needs.
Originally posted by rommello i think they would profit more by turning over ffxi with the engine used for ff14 arr, revamping it so to speak (& also reverting it back to older versions i forget which)
Yes a good idea but also a few VERY simple ideas.
Return to the old design but tweak the game so players can and WANT to group.This book burn idea in like 3 zones is ridiculous,it makes the entire game a ghost town.This was a deceiving and lazy concept.Make ALL zones viable ,not just a few.
Also let up on the drops and crafting and fishing,everthing doesn't need to bleed your eyes from lack of sleep.This +1 str concept on a level 80 item is ridiculous.Players like to feel SOME reward,they don't want to fish for hours to get go from level 2.3>2.8.
They just need some people with common sense.
The ONLY reason they created the speed leveling was becuase they wanted everyone ,including new players to be viable to sell the Abyssea series to.So ya GREED.
But i do agree,the original FFXI tweaked with the new engine would be awesome.Square Enix does a great job with detail and textures and effects,so i could imagine a HD version of FFXI would be amazing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Here's the problem though: people don't all agree on what 'WoW-clone' means. If you look on these forums you will see at least one post on every single game branding it a WoW-clone and in most of those cases it is absolutely absurd. Now I noticed that your post there was lacking even one single example of a feature that made the game a clone, so please give us your definition of a WoW-clone and enlighten us about what features FFXIV has that make it one.
And run the risk of violating NDA, which is enforced on this site? No thanks.
Come back and ask me that question when the NDA's been lifted and we can discuss it freely, and I will happily provide you a list of things that make it a WoW-clone. There's plenty.
In the meantime since you're again challenging me to "back up what I'm saying", I'll direct you to the direct statements made by Yoshida himself. Answers he's given in interviews, in the live letters, things he's explained in his Letters From The Producer, things he's clarified either directly, or through his community reps on the forums (the public ones) over the past many months now. His intentions and ideas are quite clearly explained.
I like to go on the assumption that when someone makes certain statements - especially when those statements are reiterated and clarified a number of times - that they mean exactly what they're saying.
I realize some aren't happy with the implications of ARR being another WoW clone and so they want to convince themselves that when he said "he wants to take WoW and make it into a FF game", that he somehow meant it in some specific way. You really can't get much more direct than that. Hell, I can't think of any other game developer who's come out and admitted it so readily. Most will try to dance around the topic, if not outright deny it.
See, when you attempt to divine or interpret "what someone actually meant" when they say something, you've already dove head-first into the murky waters of conjecture. I prefer not to swim in those waters. I prefer to believe the person knows exactly what they're saying, and means exactly what they've said.
So, if it's all the same to you, I'll take what the man says to be exactly what he means, and won't put words in his mouth by assigning my preferred "interpretation" to it.
+1
It is pretty hard to interpret "I want to take WoW and make it in to a FF game" any other way than at face value. Some people will try though.
Oh man... I am not a fan of Final Fantasy and admitedly "most" games they make. However, I love Deus Ex Human Revolution and they are supposedly working on a remake / reboot of the Thief series. I really want both those franchises to survive and love those sorts of games. I'd hate to see the company tank and nothing else to ever come of those titles.
I realize some aren't happy with the implications of ARR being another WoW clone and so they want to convince themselves that when he said "he wants to take WoW and make it into a FF game", that he somehow meant it in some specific way. You really can't get much more direct than that. Hell, I can't think of any other game developer who's come out and admitted it so readily. Most will try to dance around the topic, if not outright deny it.
Right.. so you say that most devs/PR people dont actually say the truth about the nature of the game theyre making. That means we should not, in most cases, take at face value how they describe the game unless we've seen/played it.
We all know the japanese are a bit different. I can easily imagine that his saying he wants to make WoW into a FF is a clumsy way of saying "We want to make a game that western players usually like (as opposed to any grindy asian mmo), with familiar and up to date, expected features (unlike FFXI / FXIV 1.0).
That being said, i havent played FF XIV so i dont know how similar to WoW it actually is. Could be it has alot in common. (which i dont really mind tbh) It definitely has more in common with it than FFXI which is apparent from all the info and vids even if i havent played it. But what he said doesnt at all makes me feel he actually meant he wants it to be as similar to WoW as possible. More like he wants it to be massively succesful and kinda familiar, not something completely different and experimental. Take the good, leave the bad, add something new. Everyone copies older and succesful games but only he said it out loud. To what extent remains to be seen.
Here's the problem though: people don't all agree on what 'WoW-clone' means. If you look on these forums you will see at least one post on every single game branding it a WoW-clone and in most of those cases it is absolutely absurd. Now I noticed that your post there was lacking even one single example of a feature that made the game a clone, so please give us your definition of a WoW-clone and enlighten us about what features FFXIV has that make it one.
And run the risk of violating NDA, which is enforced on this site? No thanks.
Come back and ask me that question when the NDA's been lifted and we can discuss it freely, and I will happily provide you a list of things that make it a WoW-clone. There's plenty.
In the meantime since you're again challenging me to "back up what I'm saying", I'll direct you to the direct statements made by Yoshida himself. Answers he's given in interviews, in the live letters, things he's explained in his Letters From The Producer, things he's clarified either directly, or through his community reps on the forums (the public ones) over the past many months now. His intentions and ideas are quite clearly explained.
I like to go on the assumption that when someone makes certain statements - especially when those statements are reiterated and clarified a number of times - that they mean exactly what they're saying.
I realize some aren't happy with the implications of ARR being another WoW clone and so they want to convince themselves that when he said "he wants to take WoW and make it into a FF game", that he somehow meant it in some specific way. You really can't get much more direct than that. Hell, I can't think of any other game developer who's come out and admitted it so readily. Most will try to dance around the topic, if not outright deny it.
See, when you attempt to divine or interpret "what someone actually meant" when they say something, you've already dove head-first into the murky waters of conjecture. I prefer not to swim in those waters. I prefer to believe the person knows exactly what they're saying, and means exactly what they've said.
So, if it's all the same to you, I'll take what the man says to be exactly what he means, and won't put words in his mouth by assigning my preferred "interpretation" to it.
+1
It is pretty hard to interpret "I want to take WoW and make it in to a FF game" any other way than at face value. Some people will try though.
Ever heard of the term 'lost in translation'? If we take what Yoshi is translated to have said literally, then the game will have every feature of WoW and no unique features, instead it's the opposite way around, so clearly they have been selective of what elements to adopt from WoW. That makes it pretty clear that regardless of what he said he didn't literally mean he was cloning WoW.
And Ayulin, nice try with the NDA excuse for not backing up your argument... We already have enough general info on all of the game's systems to be able to substantiate such a claim if it were possible. I get the impression you're just the type of gamer that brands anything with a hotbar a WoW-clone. Other than quest-based progression, slightly faster combat and a dungeon finder FFXIV has nothing that XI didn't have.
WoW took ideas that its creators liked from other MMOs (EQ, UO, etc), streamlined them, simplified them and made them more palatable to a mainstream audience. In doing so, they created their own new "standard" of MMOs.
No one could honestly call any of the MMOs WoW's popularity has spawned "EQ Clones".
ARR is much closer to WoW than WoW has ever been to EQ.
Look, I realize people are trying their hardest to make ARR sound like it's actually "its own thing" and not a WoW clone at all. But really, again... it's come from Yoshida himself. He's stated, a number of times, that WoW is his main basis for the redesign of ARR. It's the main template ARR's redesign was based on. He's stated flat out that he wants to take WoW and turn it into a FF game. And so on. There's no way to spin or misinterpret that. He's been very clear about his intentions for it.
So to cherry pick details and just ignore the rest just to try and deny ARR isn't another WoW clone really just makes anyone doing it look completely silly. It's like standing in the ocean, soaked head to toe, and insisting that water isn't actually wet.
I am not cherry picking anything. I dislike the term 'WoW-clone' and avoid using it. THe moment it is mentioned, you have swarms of ignorant people refusing to even try a game because it "is a WoW-clone."
It bothers me because MMOs are designed a certain way, due to networking, persistant Internet connection, accessibility due to high variance in the machines that will be attempting to run them. You can't release an MMO without some knee-jerk fool calling it a WoW-clone, without even trying it for themesleves. Go to any forum on here, you'll see teh same garbage.
So what if it is a "WoW-clone?" Nearly every MMO is by that logic.
WoW is the most succesful MMO, why shouldn't others take what features work in that game and attempt to improve them?
Your post seems to think I am somehow opposed to accepting the fact that ARR takes a lot from WoW. I am compeltely fine with that. Whatever they release with ARR will be 100 times more succesful than THE WORST MMO LAUNCH IN HISTORY. Honestly, people want innovation and something different, and Square tried that and bombed so hard they are still reeling three years later. (This is glossing over the fact of what an unbroken, unfinished mess it was to begin with, but bear with me) They don't have a choice but to make something that will help ease their losses. Yes, they are looking at WoW. WoW is the most succesful MMO in the world. They need some of the magic WoW used to get to the top.
NO THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO BEAT WoW. Can't be done, and they aren't trying. They want to take what works, and use that to make the best game they can WITH FEATURES THAT ARE EXPECTED BY THE MMO COMMUNITY AT LARGE.
It's ironic because al the games are apparently WoW-clones, but as soon as a game doesn't do something as good as WoW or doesn't have a feature from WoW, people start complaining jsut as much. Make up your minds.
They have FFXI for the people who like that game, 'ruined' or not. Want a game like that, there is already one for you to play. Just got a brand new Expansion in fact. ARR is trying to be it's own game, It wants to meet the expectations of the player community, provide a stable, fun MMO environment with features that anyone playing an MMO these days fully expects to be in the game.
All I am saying is try the game out before passing judgement, and play it with an open mind. If it isn't for you, great, no one is forcing you to play it. If it is for you, I hope to see you in game.
I wonder if this will have any impact on our MMO, or what the future is for SE in general... I would hate for EA or some Korean F2P giant monstrosity step in and get involved.
Why make a new thread?
I stopped reading here.
Either participate or don't, no one forces you to post. If the thread is unwanted it will either be modded or will sink. I don't mind if either happens. Either way, why ask that?
Comments
Two things:
1: ARR is a wow clone
2: I would really like for SE to go down, just like so many other companies should, because they make crap.
hallo ~_~
Well the invested a lot and got little in return ,so ya expected.IMO they made a really dumb purchase acquiring the Tomb Raider Ip.IMO that has sort of died off,not something i would invest in.it's sort of like investing in the bottle opener,looks unique for a little while,then nobody buys it any more.
So investing a ton on the game engine and losing money from FFXIV and spending a ton to get Tomb Raider,ya they asked for it.
Also companmies tend to move profit loss to various quarters,you never really know what is going on from one quarter to the next.
I am not making this up becuase i am a HUGE FF fan,however i truly believe their GREED got the best of them.
They tried to take advantage of a very lenient fan base and it has hit them in the face.
I have been there from the start and saw every single phase of the demise.
It started with the Wings of Goddess expansion,a VERY lazy rushed out xpansion.Things kept getting worse,it was like they were just tossing stuff out for sale to fund other projects and the new game engine.I thought FFX was really good but after that the games started looking cheaper and again rushed out for even the consoles.
OK players keep paying,at least some of them.However players want to see some upgrades,Square claims it can't be done effectively.So they set out to create FFXIV,figuring give the player base some better graphics a rushed product and get rich off it.
I knew it was a flawed game from the whole time i watched it unfold,i did not like anything they were doing and in the end,they never listened and it flopped.So what do they do???They make several super cheap xpacs and divide them up into three parts to triple the profits.The Shantotto xpacs were incredibly cheap,al lof them together wern't worth one xpac.
Then Abyssea man o man.A proven FLOP idea in Dynamis was relived with Abyssea an identical concept but outdoors instead of instances.Once again they divided Abyssea into three parts to triple the profits.That is EXTREMELY lame to disrespect your player base like that.Now they have lost a lot of players and a lot of respect.
I see Square struggling a lot in the future,proof is in myself.This time i have decided to not buy the xpac,i just can't trust them anymore.Actually i never bought the Abyssea either until it went on sale for all three.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This is amazing news, finally gamers are starting to punish companies for making terrible games despite the big name. Doesn't bode well for FFXIV reborn though since I doubt the games budget is anywhere near what it needs.
Yes a good idea but also a few VERY simple ideas.
Return to the old design but tweak the game so players can and WANT to group.This book burn idea in like 3 zones is ridiculous,it makes the entire game a ghost town.This was a deceiving and lazy concept.Make ALL zones viable ,not just a few.
Also let up on the drops and crafting and fishing,everthing doesn't need to bleed your eyes from lack of sleep.This +1 str concept on a level 80 item is ridiculous.Players like to feel SOME reward,they don't want to fish for hours to get go from level 2.3>2.8.
They just need some people with common sense.
The ONLY reason they created the speed leveling was becuase they wanted everyone ,including new players to be viable to sell the Abyssea series to.So ya GREED.
But i do agree,the original FFXI tweaked with the new engine would be awesome.Square Enix does a great job with detail and textures and effects,so i could imagine a HD version of FFXI would be amazing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
+1
It is pretty hard to interpret "I want to take WoW and make it in to a FF game" any other way than at face value. Some people will try though.
Now that sounds awesome. I hope they don't have to cancel it.
Right.. so you say that most devs/PR people dont actually say the truth about the nature of the game theyre making. That means we should not, in most cases, take at face value how they describe the game unless we've seen/played it.
We all know the japanese are a bit different. I can easily imagine that his saying he wants to make WoW into a FF is a clumsy way of saying "We want to make a game that western players usually like (as opposed to any grindy asian mmo), with familiar and up to date, expected features (unlike FFXI / FXIV 1.0).
That being said, i havent played FF XIV so i dont know how similar to WoW it actually is. Could be it has alot in common. (which i dont really mind tbh) It definitely has more in common with it than FFXI which is apparent from all the info and vids even if i havent played it. But what he said doesnt at all makes me feel he actually meant he wants it to be as similar to WoW as possible. More like he wants it to be massively succesful and kinda familiar, not something completely different and experimental. Take the good, leave the bad, add something new. Everyone copies older and succesful games but only he said it out loud. To what extent remains to be seen.
Ever heard of the term 'lost in translation'? If we take what Yoshi is translated to have said literally, then the game will have every feature of WoW and no unique features, instead it's the opposite way around, so clearly they have been selective of what elements to adopt from WoW. That makes it pretty clear that regardless of what he said he didn't literally mean he was cloning WoW.
And Ayulin, nice try with the NDA excuse for not backing up your argument... We already have enough general info on all of the game's systems to be able to substantiate such a claim if it were possible. I get the impression you're just the type of gamer that brands anything with a hotbar a WoW-clone. Other than quest-based progression, slightly faster combat and a dungeon finder FFXIV has nothing that XI didn't have.
I am not cherry picking anything. I dislike the term 'WoW-clone' and avoid using it. THe moment it is mentioned, you have swarms of ignorant people refusing to even try a game because it "is a WoW-clone."
It bothers me because MMOs are designed a certain way, due to networking, persistant Internet connection, accessibility due to high variance in the machines that will be attempting to run them. You can't release an MMO without some knee-jerk fool calling it a WoW-clone, without even trying it for themesleves. Go to any forum on here, you'll see teh same garbage.
So what if it is a "WoW-clone?" Nearly every MMO is by that logic.
WoW is the most succesful MMO, why shouldn't others take what features work in that game and attempt to improve them?
Your post seems to think I am somehow opposed to accepting the fact that ARR takes a lot from WoW. I am compeltely fine with that. Whatever they release with ARR will be 100 times more succesful than THE WORST MMO LAUNCH IN HISTORY. Honestly, people want innovation and something different, and Square tried that and bombed so hard they are still reeling three years later. (This is glossing over the fact of what an unbroken, unfinished mess it was to begin with, but bear with me) They don't have a choice but to make something that will help ease their losses. Yes, they are looking at WoW. WoW is the most succesful MMO in the world. They need some of the magic WoW used to get to the top.
NO THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO BEAT WoW. Can't be done, and they aren't trying. They want to take what works, and use that to make the best game they can WITH FEATURES THAT ARE EXPECTED BY THE MMO COMMUNITY AT LARGE.
It's ironic because al the games are apparently WoW-clones, but as soon as a game doesn't do something as good as WoW or doesn't have a feature from WoW, people start complaining jsut as much. Make up your minds.
They have FFXI for the people who like that game, 'ruined' or not. Want a game like that, there is already one for you to play. Just got a brand new Expansion in fact. ARR is trying to be it's own game, It wants to meet the expectations of the player community, provide a stable, fun MMO environment with features that anyone playing an MMO these days fully expects to be in the game.
All I am saying is try the game out before passing judgement, and play it with an open mind. If it isn't for you, great, no one is forcing you to play it. If it is for you, I hope to see you in game.
+1
So tired of these judgemental forum police.