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Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 Originally posted by Quirhid Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.
Absolutely not! We'd never want to hinder your "me me me" mindset now would we?
Nice strawman you've built there.
I'm still right, carebears and the mindless drone consumers have destroyed the mmo market.
No, the mmo market is larger and more profitable than ever and more gamers are enjoying the MMORPG genre than ever before.
Your particular niche in the greater MMO market may not be popular or as successful, but it still exists (which you should be thankful for).
This is all just yet another "waaa I hate that other people have nice things that they like and I don't!" post.
#34287634781 I've seen on this website.
Originally posted by Oberholzer I'd like a mixture. Quests if you want, mobs to grind if you don't but aren't there mobs to be killed even in quest based games? I do wish quests seemed more epic though. Longer, more involved with real challenges. I played EQ1 so I'm certainly familiar with camping and grinding mobs and after the novelty wore off it did get boring. Dungeons and caves were more fun and being in the open world did add to the danger. Some of my favorite grinds were actually mobile ones, not staying at a camp but keeping the group moving across Norrath, trying to kill whatever you happened upon. Don't really miss camping placeholders though, killing a mob over and over hoping for the rare one to pop was tedious.
In Everquest... you could have 10 buddies online and ALL being doing something diffrent. Most of the time, my friends were so busy (solo) tracking down a quest items, crafting component, crafting, looking for a crafter, or looking for a particular vendor that sells a rare spell, etc..
...Than being able to form up a group with me, as I logged in^^.
So I was left with nearly unlimited choices... do i go quad-kite raptors.. Help a friend get part of his key qest for Sibilis, go find my newewr spells.. go sell the rares I have in my bag... go to town and arrange my bank..
Or, go off into a dungeon and find a pick-up-group myself...
Who was telling you to grind in EQ..?
Who kept you from only doing short easy quests & not the long hard ones that took months to solve..?
Who forced you to camp a placeholder..?
People that use the word "grind"... are just sheeple who followed someone else and did what they were all doing. They call it a grind, bcuz they are looking back on their choices they took, (to stay competetively lvl's to their friends... so they were always min/maxing exp...) it was these so-called Grinder's choice... to play this/that way... always under the gun to get max level. Always in a hurry for not whats in front of them, but end game. Always "grinding away" at max level..
I played for weeks not gaining exp, but building assets and future for my character. When I found an very effecient method of gaining exp (ie meaning most exp in least amount of time) I would exploit those areas & groups as long as I could... sometimes 8h~12h strait, because the EXP was so good. I've even called off of work!
Many like to call that "a grind" because to them, it is just something they are doing until they reach max level. While other don't see it as a grind, because they are eraning experience through combat for their character & themselves. Forging new friendships. Some of my best OL friends came as we helped each other out of impossible situations, etc. Chemistry has alot to do with EQ guilds.
Again, as your character earns experience in the game world, you..yourself learn to play that character. Those who try to avoid the "EQ grinds" and bought $3k Wizards... soon lost friend on their servers, because they didn't know how to play them..!! If you find yourself grinding in a game and physically cannot do anythng other in the game, put it down. But if you are grinding because you've placed an artificial limit to what you can do in a game.. then try having phun not earning exp.
The social interaction to overcome some of the creatures in Everquest... even a lone Griffon disturbing all the harvesters in the plains. They eventually had to group up and kill the roaming Griffon, then go back to their merry way.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Originally posted by BadSpock Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 Originally posted by Quirhid Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.
Dude, the ONLINE market has expanded.. not just MMO's.
ANd.. MMORPG's only make a modest part of the piechart compared to total (ie: minecraft, farmville, etc..) We here @ MMORPG.com and specifically withint this forum are only concerned with those few games that fall withing the MMORPG banner... all other games have their own genra now.
You are confusing marketing data and segment data with MMORPG. It doesn't work that way.. this is not Bloomberg, but MMORPG.com... where roleplaying games are fornt & foremost.
So he is 100% correct.. in saying most of these recent games aimed at MMORPG players were nothing but cash grabs at the 5% of WoW refugee's that are impatient and want moAr, so will collectively dump $400+ million into any stupid WoW-clone that comes along. That is why in the last 5 years we've seen marketing ramped up... because even 5% of WoW's base is 600,000 subs.
That is what is getting purpetuated ovr and ovr... and with criticle mass, too many cheap gmes exploded on the market & dumping their business model in favor of free to play.... these cheap pretend MMORPG's are failing and will not compete up against the newer open worlds coming out.
Call of Duty and Battlfeield 3 are not MMO's, but they are online games listed in revenue source...
yeah .. if the MMO market is "destroyed" .. then what was i having fun with last night? A zombie?
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by BadSpock Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 Originally posted by Quirhid Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.
By destroyed he means there is a bunch of crappy F2P games flooding the market that won't hold the majority of peoples attention for very long.
There isn't a mmorpg currently out that captures all the essence of a perfect MMORPG (sandbox with themepark elements, balanced pvp, in depth crafting with changing resource location/quality, relatively bug free and hacker free, meaningful end game content that is player influenced, player housing, sieging, all with good graphics and a great UI).
Originally posted by Waterlily Originally posted by koboldfodder Ah, but it wasn't mindless spawn camping. In original EQ you had to group up to survive, dungeons were contested and there was even more action if you were on a PvP server. Plus, the main part of that game was not the AA system it was the sense of community that existed because you were a part of something bigger rather than being the solo hero. If you think EQ was nothing more than mindless dungeon grinding, you probably did not even play it.
The guy never played EQ.
If he is wrong, explain this:
/ooc Camp Check!
Originally posted by Lonzo Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful.... I miss those days...
We're certainly talking about the EQ that was, not the EQ that lives today, but I agree with you.
You either grouped up in a good spawn location, or (if you were able), you could camp 1 or 2 x 28 minute spawns yourself for hours on end and maybe level every 2 or 3 days (in the later levels). And the quests that were available to us, the ones we discovered, were truly epic. That word is thrown around a lot these days, but they were epic. Hell, they were epic by definition.
Some of you may say, "just go back". Well you can't. They dumbed down the game to the point it's just a shell of its former self.
Some people do not want to face the facts that what they like is not popular. So we get the "carebears and mindless drones" crap that these people spew up constantly.
The MMO market has not been destroyed. Just the type of game that you like has. The best part is you blame people who are playing games that they enjoy for your game not being created. You fail to see the obvious. Your style of game is not being made because developers want a chance at making money. You are niche. The casual player is the majority.
Originally posted by GreenHell Originally posted by BadSpock Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 Originally posted by Quirhid Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.
Yes, logging in for 20 mins to run a dungeon, collect your daily loot quests. then not log back in until a raid time is very RPG. MMOARCADE is the new type of game people are loving which is ok if thats what they want. However, dont hate on true mmorpg vets who see past the shallowness of the wow clones.
Originally posted by Acidon
Wait .. not asking people to wait 28 min for a spawn for hours is "dumbing down"? Wasting people time is "dumbing down"?
If so, i am more than happy to play "dumbed down" games. I don't want to play a game where you actualy play every 28 min. I think the devs also figure out most don't like that.
Most leisure time is more precious than that .. and i want actual entertainment, not wasting 28 min in between small amount of easy combat.
I think maybe you need to take off those glasses. The quests back then were no more important or meaningful. They were just less advertised. Like you'll pick up a crapload of orc bones and vendor them until realizing that there is some guy who actually collects them for more xp. It was a quest, just poorly advertised.
As far as having just one way of leveling, that existed back then as well. Your only reliable method to level was to grind mobs, which meant camping at a spawn point and killing whatever popped up ever 45 seconds, until you gained a few levels and move to another spawn point. You could do this in groups to make the process a easier, if not too much faster.
You can still do that in newer games if you'd like. No one is forcing you to do the quests.
You make me like charity
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Acidon
I think this just Nostalgia talking for people. Honestly, a perfect MMORPG would have instanced dungeons as well as open air dungeons. Why cant there be both?
Originally posted by Quirhid Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.
When you run back n forth from npc to where you are sent on an errand,is that mindless?You bet it is ,even more mindless becuase yo uare doiong absolutely nothing except press the arrow keys for direction.If you think pushing direction keys is fun,you can still do that in a camp.
FFX iis the game that actually evolved,all these other games have taken concepts and just try to eliminate any game design or any effort.You do not get credit for evolving game play by doing less work designing your game.
A really good analogy to game design...
Quests are errands and this is how they operate in most games.
Your mom wants you to go get some milk and a loaf of bread.However gamers are lazy and don't like to think,so MOM is going ahead of you and laying out some bread crumbs for you to follow.
Ok so now you come back that whole time running back,you feel like you have become a MUCH more experienced HOCKEY player,so your stick skills and passing and skating skills all go up,all because you went to go get that loaf of bread and milk.SO upon arrival Mom gives you experience to all hockey skills.
See how ridiculous that is??Well that is exactly what quests are doing.
Game design is actually disrespecting the gamers intelligence and not by a little,by a LOT !.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Wizardry Originally posted by Quirhid Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.
For what it's worth, I like the "midless" travel time running to and from NPC's. It makes the world feel at list a little big bigger, and gives me a chance to look around at things rather than ignore anything i can't interact with.
I hated when WoW started streamlining quests to the point where sometimes you don't even have to turn it back in.
Originally posted by osiriszoran
There *can* be both. The question is whether they will be fun. The problem with EQ is that:
- static spawn point with long time in-between spawns
- people camp them .. so it is boring, and easy (the fights are way easier with less combat mechanics than modern games).
- small number of mobs each time you fight
Instanced dungeons provide a much better (for me, obviously and many other) gaming experiences. Can open air dungeon do the same? I have not seen one i like yet .. but i won't say 100% for sure in the future.
But i won't play a game that requires me to wait 28 min (or even 10min, or even 5 min) to kill static spawn, one by one.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by osiriszoran
I think the open air dungeons are more for the people who want that sense of danger and excitement that comes with player interaction in the form of grouping to prevent pvp or to start pvp. Alot of funtimes and interesting drama can be started by controlling/fighting over a dungeon and can lead to a sense of great accomplishment.
Originally posted by Aelious I'm not really concerned with what the majority of people want but I rather like the thought of everyone being in the same "world". At lest there are games like Vanguard that feature that kind of world. A few more are coming as well
I realize that does not really matter when i can see no more than 50-60 people at one time anyway. The biggest fantasy battle i have fought .. is like WG with what .. 40 on one side? That is massive enough.
It makes zero gameplay difference to me, if the number is 4000 instead of 40 .. you can't see everyone anyway.
But not everyone like PvP in their dungeon crawl. In fact, most people are on pve servers with no open pvp.
And i also don't see why you need a open air dungeon to do what you just said .. a instanced pvp dungeon with both pvp opponent and NPC bosses can do the same.
I don't know what the SOE team has planned, but, they do say the ideas are CRAZY! That they are/should be considered as have gone totally NUTS!
Personally, I do hope it means that they are returning to "old school" style of MMOs.
Take the best parts from EQ, EQ2, Vanguard Online, Starwars Galaxies. Put em all in a bowl and mix em up. Pour the mix through a filter that removes easymode, amongst other things.
After this is done, pour it into a crock pot and add spices in forms of corpse runs, levelleling difficulties, death penalties and grouping/socialising, and whatever new ideas that you think will mix well into this blend.
Heat up the oven to the certain amount of devs, programmers etc that will perfect this amazing idea of a dish.
Let it cook for a couple years and you will have the amazing tasty end result, that today will be known as EQnext.
Because you want to keep a MMORPG as open as possible. People who dont like pvp in their dungeon crawl can do the dungeons with instances, but if they want to get whatever is on the outdoor dungeon boss they better be willing to fight for it. Thats called appealing to both pvpers and pvers.
Originally posted by Storm_Cloud I don't know what the SOE team has planned, but, they do say the ideas are CRAZY! That they are/should be considered as have gone totally NUTS! Personally, I do hope it means that they are returning to "old school" style of MMOs. Take the best parts from EQ, EQ2, Vanguard Online, Starwars Galaxies. Put em all in a bowl and mix em up. Pour the mix through a filter that removes easymode, amongst other things. After this is done, pour it into a crock pot and add spices in forms of corpse runs, levelleling difficulties, death penalties and grouping/socialising, and whatever new ideas that you think will mix well into this blend. Heat up the oven to the certain amount of devs, programmers etc that will perfect this amazing idea of a dish. Let it cook for a couple years and you will have the amazing tasty end result, that today will be known as EQnext. Storm
We can only hope! They have been pretty public about taking from their other games in order to find out what people really want from those titles... that and their cool tech tools. One telling thing is that the original versions were described as "EQ2.5" and good but not what they wanted. So if the plan for a quest based themepark was so bad that they scraped that version (cost incurred) for "the biggest sandbox style MMO ever created" what does that mean? Nothing really until 9/1
If they had different servers for harsher gameplay I wouldn't mind. I have a good amount of fun playing most MMOs and console games for "100% fun all time" but whenever a game has gotten stale it's because the journey is too expected, I kill things and they die easy unless I get into an instance. I don't think it's better or worse in general but I like the idea of unknown variables when I play.
Questing is a way to tell a story. It can also be a grind but imo it's much less noticeable or irritating when it engages you because you then become part of the story. This is the foundation of immersion, investment and attachment to your avatar.
Both models have less to do with a gamer's intelligence than their endurance. Virtually none of these games are deep enough to engage the intellect through their gameplay alone; it's most often the metagame where we find any real challenge. I don't think the analogy, in any case, comes close to describing what's going on in modern MMOs. The real question to be asked is how progression can be made interesting over the long term. Quests were an answer to widespread dissatisfaction with spawn camping and mob-grinding, now people are looking for the a horizon that lies beyond hubs and NPCs with exclamation points. If I take a look around at some of the newer games, it's obvious that baby steps are being made in that direction.